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Bálint Hóman wrote of two Borises in his Magyar történet (). One Boris was identical with Boris Kalamanos, who died around 1154, fighting against the Cumans, according to Hóman. The other Boris was Ban Boris, whom Géza I made Ban of Bosnia, for which Géza I's brother, Stephen (the former Duke of Bosnia) fled to the Byzantine Empire in 1158. Consequently: (1) Hóman does not identify the two Borises; and (2) he does not write that Boris Kalamanos was made Ban of Bosnia by Géza I. An earlier debate also makes it clear that Nada Klaić does not identify "Ban Boris" with Boris Kalamanos either. For Boris Kalamanos died around 1154, "Ban Boris/Boric" ruled in Bosnia in 1167, all theories identifying them can easily be described as a fringe theory. Borsoka (talk) 10:15, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Historians like Simeon Bogdanović explicitly say Boris Kalamanos and "Borić" were the same person, so don't delete their claim based on your POV on Hóman. Also, Klaić quotes Hóman as saying "Banus Boris" (not just Boris) when discussing Arpads' right to Bosnia (p.48 in her book), and Kalamanos was the only Arpad named Boris at that time. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 10:49, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
However, Klaić does not say that Ban Boris was a member of the Árpád dynasty. And the exprerssion "борис" cannot be find in the allegedly cited book by Simeon Bogdanović. Borsoka (talk) 11:13, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Nobody cite primary sources, but you have not verified that either Hóman or Klaić identify Boris Kalamanos with Ban Boris, and you have not been able to prove that the allegedly cited book by Bogdanović identifies the two Borises. Borsoka (talk) 12:02, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Hóman and Bogdanović are primary sources here, and you are just a Misplaced Pages editor. What does Bogdanović have to do with Klaić?! Klaić identified Hóman's Banus Boris as an Arpad, otherwise she wouldn't have bothered opposing Arpads' right to Bosnia; the only Arpad by name Boris at the time was Boris Kalamanos. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 12:14, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
However, it is not obvious. The claim that Klaić identified Ban Boris as a member of the Árpád dynasty has not been proved for a while. If you cannot cite more than one historians who identify Boris Kalamanos with Ban Boris, how can you prove that this is not a fringe theory, especially if we take into account that ordinary men can rarely rule after their death (Boris Kalamanos died in the early 1150s, Ban Boris still ruled around 1167). Borsoka (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
The issue of Borić's identity is so poorly understood and so rarely addressed that 1 reference is a gem. On your dates speculation: historic dates are almost always based on primary sources not allowed on Misplaced Pages, but for the sake of discussion: don't you find it improbable (in light of your own POV) that 2 men for whom at least one historian claimed were the same person, dies in the same year the other man appears? Again: what links Bogdanović to Klaić?! 217.197.142.229 (talk) 13:16, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
No, one reference is not a gem. It is a minority or fringe POV. "My" dates are not speculations: they are based on scholarly works cited in the relevant articles. No, it is not interesting: a man who dies in the early 1150s can hardly be identical with a man who is mentioned for the first time in the late 1150s. I do not know (and have not claimed) any link between Bogdanović and Klaić: the former allegedly identifies Boris Kalamanos with Ban Boris, the latter clearly does not identify the two men. Borsoka (talk) 13:43, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
You have not cited a single quote which states that the two Borises were identical. According to Google Translate, the above quote says that a late primary source claims that a certain Anna was the daughter of Boric which would imply that Boric was identical with Boris. However, you have not presented the conclusion of the scholar who wrote this sentence. The other citation also proves that Boris Kalamanos died in the 1150s. How could this source prove that he was identical with a man who ruled Bosnia in the 1160s? Borsoka (talk) 14:37, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Don't know how Google translates but my bolded text means "But he holds that Ban Borić and Boris, son of Coloman I, Hungarian king, were the same person" So the source does state explicitly that Bogdanović claims Boris and Borić (what do you mean by "two Borises"?) were identical. Again, I only use secondary sources like Klaić or Vukićević & Ćosović. Historians surely know best. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 14:58, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your translation which again proves that there is one historian who identifies Boris Kalamanos and Ban Borić. By the way, what is his full name and when did he live? However, we still cannot forget that the other historians whom you cited (Hóman and Klaić) do not identify Boris Kalamanos and Borić. We still have to take into account that a man who died in the 1150s according to the scholarly works cited in this article (Boris Kalamanos) could not rule Bosnia in the 1160s (like Ban Borić). Borsoka (talk) 15:07, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
You're welcome. I'm sure there are more as I have seen them. Regardless, you should remove the Undue tag. I don't know Bogdanović's details, but he seems like a prominent historian because I saw his name a lot in unrelated texts. The Klaić ref to Hóman's claim of "Arpads' right to Bosnia" is clear too since there was only one Boris of Arpads in that era - Boris Kalamanos, and we don't need to cite the obvious. Besides, the dates from that era are speculative at best, as the above 2 Google Books refs show. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 15:23, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
OK, we cannot certainly identify Bogdanović. Interestingly, renowned historian's names are known by specialists in my country. Klaić does not identify "Ban Boris/Borić" as a member of the Árpád dynasty, as it is obvious from an earlier discussion. Yes, dates are uncertain, however, it is obvious (also based on the works you cited above) that modern scholars say, Boris Kalamanos died in the 1150s (while Ban Borić ruled Bosnia in the 1160s). Consequently, I am more and more convinced that any reference to Boris Kalamanos's rule in Bosnia should be deleted from the article as a fringe theory. Borsoka (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Actually, we can. You jumped the gun: I didn't say Bogdanović couldn't be identified, I said I didn't know much about him. But a search returned this profile of his. The lead paragraphs says he was "официр аустријске војске и српски историчар који се претежно бавио српском средњовековном историјом" ("an Austrian officer and Serbian historian specializing in Serbian medieval history"). On dates issue: you can't say "dates are uncertain" and then claim "modern scholars" (how is that an argument?) somehow deciphered the names but not dates. The tag should go. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 16:03, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Yes, this was what I assumed. A historian, who died in 1909, identified Boris Kalamanos with "Ban Boris/Borić". Why do you think that this view is still relevant if we cannot refer to a single other historian who has accepted this identification during the last couple of decades? You may not know, but WP is an enncyclopadia which is based on works published by scholars, and not on our own research. Consequently, our argumenations should also be based on references to scholars' works. If no furhter academic work can be cited to verify the old claim, we should delet it from the article. Borsoka (talk) 16:13, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the Klaić ref on Hóman: on p.49 she actually does explain who she and Hóman meant by the Boris she talked about on p.48: "Bela je u Borisu, nepriznatom Kolomanovu sinu (s Ruskinjom Eufemijom) imao jakog protivnika" ("Bela had an archenemy in Boris, the Coloman's bastard son (with Russian Euphemia)"). In fact, in two last paragraphs on p.57 Klaić speaks of Borić and Boris as the same person. Those are the only 3 mentions of Boris in her book. So the issue is settled as to the Klaić reference as well. Please restore the original text. 217.197.142.229 (talk) 16:18, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
