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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Beit Or (talk | contribs) at 09:08, 17 October 2006 (→Beit Or's edits). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Sviatoslav I has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: No date specified. To provide a date use: {{GA|insert date in any format here}}. (Reviewed version).

Should the name be Sviatoslav or Svyatoslav? Whichever one, it needs to be consistent throughout the article. Right now they're both used: Sviatoslav in the title and very beginning and Svyatoslav throughout most of the text. Billy Shears 19:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Never mind. Or chose the one you like and unify the spelling. It doesn't make so much difference, really. --Ghirlandajo 20:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Map

The map of Sviatoslav's state is a fiction. A self made map of unknown validity. The lands of derevlians on the nothern west from Kiev that were conquered by his mother Olga are not included into red space. They are presented even as the lands on the southern west?!?. On the contrary, the eastern and nothern boders of Rus (red and orange) are unreasonably enlareged (land of Polotsk was taken after his death by Volodymer, the land of Novgorod wasn't so big at that time). The boders signed by orange are nonsense, because nobody can prove that Sviatoslav had left his administartion there. Hazaria and Bulgaria were only plundered by the prince's armies but not conquered. Hazars were unable to stand after his blow but Bulgaria still to exist unntil the middle of 13 c.

Therefore Sviatoslav expeditions should be shown on the map as arrows (directions of his campains) rather than as encircling of paticular areas. It should be deleted as POV or remade. The sourses listed in the image are either unreliable or the author who created the map used wrong data. --Alex Kov 17:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, since you removed the map from the article again, I will place it here at talk for now, awaiting the response from the author. In the meanwhile, please make sure all your edits are done while you are logged in. You latest deletion again came from an IP. --Irpen 04:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

"conquests" do not mean occupation. Sviatoslav's armies moved through the general areas depicted. Historical maps are never intended to draw clear-cut and fully accurate boundaries because such boundaries are impossible to determine even at that time, let alone today. This user appears to object to user-made images for the sake of objecting to them. By the standards he would impose every historical map on Misplaced Pages should be removed. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 02:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Selfmade maps should not be removed. I just dont like this paticular map, which is full of factual mistakes . The territory of Rus (red)in the north is unreasonably enlarged, while the southern lands are depicted as a smal area along the Dniper river. The derevlians are not the tribe from steps on the south but woods on the west. Read Tolochko or Rybakov, or any other valuable historiography on the subject to learn the realms of Rus during the reign of Sviatoslav. You'll see that your map is wrong and it should be remade. If you want to show the wars of Sviatoslav on the east do it by arrows (es. in case of Khazaria and Bulgaria). Thats a ussual way of depicting war campaigns of those who invaded but not conquered (occupied) the lands of foes. For example, look at the maps of crusades. The crusaders took several castles and towns in Asia Minor on their way to the Holy Land, but in the cartography these castles and towns are not included (encircled) into the borders of the crusarers' kingdoms. Please remade your map in accordance to historical facts and rules of cartography. --Alex Kov 05:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Silistria

I belive that the old name Durostor is more appropiate for accuracy, Silistra is the modern name.CristianChirita 06:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the Byzantine Greek name was Dorystolon. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 21:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Gibbon

How do we get the Gibbon text moved to Wikisource where it belongs? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 02:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

GA review

First, let me say this is one of the best, most entertaining articles I've read for a GA review. Extremely interesting! The lead is somewhat weaker than the rest, and the Russian phrases could possibly also use a a Latin alphabet transliteration. "Kievan Rus'" is written both with and without the '. Some references have odd little underscores, such as "Primary Chronicle _____." - what do they mean?

Still, none of these seem enough to withold GA. However, this article seems near-FA, so fixing them would probably get it the rest of the way.

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

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1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

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2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

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3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

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4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

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5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

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6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

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7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

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2a has the weird underscores, so is only a mostly-pass. 6b is a get-out clause if there's no images, so it's not applicable.

Still, it's a pretty clear pass. Great work! Adam Cuerden 14:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The underscored references indicate that the writer of the reference (in this case, me) didn't have access to the actual document in question and couldn't cite to a specific section or page number at the time of writing. The facts referenced do come from the works cited and I am working on fixing them. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 22:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, it happens. Not ideal, but as it's getting fixed, no big problem Adam Cuerden 23:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Beit Or's edits

I'm a busy editor and have multiple tasks on my hands. I don't have time to analyze irresponsible edits by any stray wikipedian, but I decided to make an exception for Beit Or:

1. "Cyrillic: Святослав" changed to "Russian: Святослав" - he was as Russian as he was Ukrainian; his name in all three East Slavic languages spells identically; Cyrillic writing is not italicized per WP:RUS.

2. "Despite this" before the reference changed to "however". I'll let Briangotts to judge on the wisdom of changing his wording. Nevertheless, a footnote after the first word in the sentence ("however") looks lame.

3. "His "legitimate" (the notion of legitimacy in pagan times was blurred) children included" changed to "by his wives". Surely, he had children not by husbands? What is disputed in this passage?

4. Added: "The conflict between Khazaria and Rus began in the early 9th century when the Khazars closed the Volga trade route for the Rus merchants in response to their pillage of Muslim lands." This extraordinary assertion needs to be well sourced, with links to primary sources that record "the closing of the Volga trade route for the Rus merchants in response (sic!) to their pillage of Muslim lands". Original research and fringe theories will not be tolerated.

5. With a remarkable lack of consistency, after adding the above highly speculative passage, Beit Or requested citations for the famous passage from the Primary Chronicle about "Иду на вы!" The chronicle is the foremost source of data about Svyatoslav; it is mentioned in every passage of the article; is it not enough?

6. "He then turned his attention to the Khazars, who had been until recently the dominant force in the Pontic steppe." - sentence deleted for reasons unknown.

7. "Logan, Donald F. (1192). The Vikings in History 2nd ed. Routledge. ISBN 0-4150-8396-6" added to references, without specification what claim in the article it is to reference.

Unless detailed explanation of every unsubstantiated edit is forthcoming, they will be reverted. --Ghirla 08:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

A point-by-point response:

1. Svyatoslav was not of Slavic origin; the general rule on Misplaced Pages is to give the spelling in the original language rather than in an alternative alphabet. Casual observation suggests that the Old East Slavic language is not used in Misplaced Pages articles on Rus with preference being given to Russian. Even if Svyatoslav is spelled identically in Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian, this name is an exception rather than a rule. For the sake of consistency, it is a good idea to conctinue to stick to Russian.

2. "Despite this" is unidiomatic in English; "however" or "nevertheless" are preferred.

3. "By his wives" makes sense because Malusha was not his wife.

4. This is from the article "Khazars" in the Encyclopaedia of Islam. I'll add the full reference shortly.

5. It was actually Briangotts who requested a citation for this. A fairly reasonable request, IMHO.

6. The sentence is redundant: it makes no sense to say that Svyatoslav turned his attention to the Khazars in the middle of his campaign against them.

7. Footnote #13 (deleted by Ghirlandajo) is referenced to Logan.

Then, calling somebody else's edits "irresponsible" cuts no ice with me. Either edits are in accordance with Misplaced Pages policies or they are not; the rest is irrelevant. Beit Or 09:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

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