This is an old revision of this page, as edited by DePiep (talk | contribs) at 21:11, 5 May 2018 (→No space before ellipsis "..."?: fix example). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Category problem

Just a heads-up, because I accidentally added the {{uncategorized}} template to this page a few days ago before reverting myself. JaGa (talk · contribs)'s old uncategorized pages toolserver, which was programmed to automatically exclude Main Page if it somehow showed up in the toolserver list, has not been functioning at all for several months — so those of us who do uncategorized-tag runs have had to rely on Special:UncategorizedPages instead, which does consistently keep Main Page on the list. What happened the other day is that I tried to skip the page, but accidentally hit the save button in AWB instead of the skip button — so I ended up tagging the page in error and had to revert myself.

If possible, I'd like it if somebody who knows more about the technical aspects of Misplaced Pages than I do could find a way to keep Main Page off Special:UncategorizedPages entirely, to minimize the risk of this happening again. But in the meantime, just be aware that something like this might happen again if somebody working with UncategorizedPages accidentally clicks the wrong button or didn't know they were supposed to skip it. I know this has happened before, for one or the other of those same two reasons — so it would be preferable if someone could find a way to make UncategorizedPages automatically exclude Main Page from being listed there at all. Bearcat (talk) 20:51, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Main Page does belong at Special:UncategorizedPages so removing it would be odd, and could probably only be done with a change to the part of the MediaWiki software which generates the page. That's outside control of the English Misplaced Pages. It would be far easier to just code {{uncategorized}} to check the page name and do nothing on Main Page. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:17, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, the core purpose of Special:UncategorizedPages is to detect articles that are actually in need of attention from the categorization project — so I'm not sure I understand why a non-article page that falls outside the categorization project's purview would somehow "belong" there. I also don't believe that it's possible to code a template to act differently on one page than it does elsewhere — I know it's possible to make templates behave in a namespace-dependent way, such as displaying an error message if it's added to a category instead of an article, but I don't believe it's possible to make the template "do nothing" if it's added to one specific page. Bearcat (talk) 21:29, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

The English Misplaced Pages has its main page in mainspace. Special:UncategorizedPages is a feature of the MediaWiki software and lists mainspace pages. MediaWiki is used by thousands of wikis which can use their mainspace for all sorts of things. You can file a request for MediaWiki developers at phab: but I'm pretty sure they would reject it. It's simple to code a template to depend on the specific page: {{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Main Page|(do nothing)|(do something)}}. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:33, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

And what nothing or something is it possible to make the template do, exactly, that would change anything? The only option it's possible to do with that function is "show an error message that would still require somebody to manually remove the template afterward" — there is no value of "something" or "nothing" in that equation that would make it possible for the template to preemptively prevent itself from getting added to the page in the first place. But if the template can't be coded to make it impossible to even be added to Main Page in the first place, then there's exactly nothing else it can be coded to do that would have any value whatsoever as a solution to this problem — because it can't be coded to do anything that doesn't still require human removal of the template after the fact. Bearcat (talk) 23:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

I think PrimeHunter is suggesting to change the template so that it returns null value on the main page; then it could sit there indefinitely without causing any problems, because no one would be able to see it outside source. —Compassionate727  23:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. If it does nothing on the main page then it doesn't matter whether somebody accidentally adds it there. I assumed your concern was that readers would see the normal message box and category on the main page. My suggestion would avoid that by only adding those things in the "(do something)" part away from the main page. If your concern is that the page history may get a couple of unnecessary edits then it really isn't something you should request a MediaWiki change for. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

"DYK next next"

I see recently the "next next" DYK section is part of the MP. That is: the day after tomorrow is frozen too. (DYT is a 1/24h refreshed page these days, it was more often before). That also involves cascade protection etc. I can understand DYK-specific reasons for this (it is a multi-stage, multi-article, write-for-MP, queu-staged, bot-handled, and also heavy-editing-energy well done :-) process producing the hooks). But does this really help the DYK process? Part of the fun is, that it is about "fresh articles".

So I ask: any discussion I can missed? What problem is being solved? How can we improve & simplify this process elsewhere? And also: please remove the childish "next" wording. Just use "tomorrow" etc. - DePiep (talk) 21:41, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Your first assertion is incorrect. DYK (not DYT) is refreshed every 12 hours. Once sets get moved from prep to queues they become protected. And often as not, there are far more eyes on ERRORS than on WT:DYK, hence the need to look further ahead than just the next set. The problem being solved is the poor quality control being applied by the DYK process to hooks en route to the main page. This is manifestly worse when we have an increased rate, e.g. two sets of eight hooks per day, as is the current cadence. The wording is not "childish" in the slightest, you could possibly replace it with "next +1" or similar, but honestly, that's the least of our worries. Do you have any other questions? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:15, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

No, I don't have any other questions. But I do have the same ones (IOW: no need to talk down on me, really, after evading the issue). OK, you are right: DYK is new every 12 hours (finally I found it {{here}}, not at WP:DYK btw). Now how can we help the WikiProject:DYK? - DePiep (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

If you're trying to help DYK, the main thing that is needed is quality control and fact checking. Verify that the articles meet minimum expected quality standards of referencing and quality writing, assure the blurbs are interesting without being misleading, and fact check especially the claims being made by said blurbs. If you could do that before they hit the queues, it would make everything run smoother. --Jayron32 00:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

re If you're trying to help DYK: isn't that a bit too paternalistic? Why write "help" not "improve" for example, as we all do here at Misplaced Pages? Why do you think I am not "helping" otherwise? - DePiep (talk) 02:31, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Look, dude, you just asked "how can we help?" And then you have the gall to complain when I answer your question exactly as you asked it? You know what, don't help. It's from your completely rude response to me when I gave a simple, honest, and polite answer to you that you have nothing useful to do around here. You know what, don't help. There's someone else who will be able to help and won't do what you just did right there. Vaya con dios, amigo. --Jayron32 02:50, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, Jayron32. I must have mixed up my talks and thoughts badly. I apologise, and I struck. - DePiep (talk) 02:57, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

No space before ellipsis "..."?

Our Main page has sections named "Did you know..." and "On this day...". I note that the ellipsis ("...") is not preceded by a space. I myself woud expect one: "On this day ...", but I am not a typograph. Is there any easy clarification? (Could be a discussion link ~2007). - DePiep (talk) 02:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Previous discussion here. Art LaPella (talk) 05:05, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

In my experience, in U.S. publishing and journalism an ellipsis takes spaces before and after it (or a fourth period at the end of the sentence). Seeing it without the initial space looks like an error to me. Sca (talk) 14:18, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

But to me, no space looks correct, and imo better, similarly to how you wouldn’t precede other types of punctuation with a space. Aiken D 16:45, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

But hey, each hook starts with a ellipse-space sequence: ( ... abc). So, the after-space is accepted?! - DePiep (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Please add a permanent link to the Category:Misplaced Pages glossaries and then let readers know they can turn the glossaries into flashcards when using Page Previews mode

I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time. I have never made a suggestion for the Main talk page until today. I humbly and respectfully ask that you add a permanent link to Category:Misplaced Pages glossaries on the very top right section of the Main page. I think glossaries are one of the most important features of this encyclopedia but a lot of people don't know about them. The reason I am asking now is because Misplaced Pages has recently implemented the Page Previews feature. This powerful tool is able to turn all the glossaries into a flashcard studying tool simply by hovering over the terms. I truly think readers all over the world will love this. I made the request for the link on the Wikimedia Page Previews talk page and someone suggested that I make the request on this talk page. So please add the link on the top right of the Main page. If it doesn't work out, you can always delete it. Thank you very much for your time. LearnMore (talk) 13:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

@LearnMore: it may help if you mock this up for demonstration, perhaps at Misplaced Pages:Main Page alternative (editable). — xaosflux 14:26, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Good idea! I went ahead and did a mock up demo on the editable Main Page. I hope it inspires some sort of permanent link to the glossaries on the real Main Page. Page Previews is so awesome as a flashcard tool. I hope it catches on! LearnMore (talk) 16:14, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you kidding me?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Did you know ... that riot shields (example pictured) may actually encourage protesters to throw things at police?"

Yeah, I know, how dare people carry around things that only have a defensive purpose, don't they understand that's just begging to be attacked by someone?

That's pretty embarrassing, Misplaced Pages. Don't you dare tell me that "science" has proved it's legitimate to blame police officers for carrying shields to protect themselves. Don't you dare. Zachary Klaas (talk) 00:21, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Can I ask a similar question? Are you kidding us? Your progression from a perfectly reasonable DYK to silly inferences is drawing an extraordinarily long bow. The embarrassment lies with you. Moriori (talk) 01:11, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Looks like an interesting article/study. (Who said anything about blame, btw?) Drmies (talk) 01:13, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

So that is interesting: "A chief superintendent in the UK stated that while protesters were generally reluctant to assault police, that reluctance seemed to disappear if officers had riot shields. It has been observed that protestors may not throw objects until the police bring in shields, and some people will deliberately throw objects at the shields themselves, indicating that they do not actually want to injure the police." In a book published by Cambridge UP, so that's pretty solid. Drmies (talk) 01:16, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

• Unintended consequences are often ironic. Abstinence-only education actually results in higher teenage pregnancy rates is another widely covered one. And yes, the source for the claim is absolutely solid.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 08:11, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, every attitude I was worried would surface pretty much did. I imagine we'll be seeing more "science" like this in the future gracing the front page. Here's another weird psychological inference, I may have enabled you to go ahead and post more spurious crap like this by complaining about it in the first place, just like police officers "get themselves attacked" by carrying things to defend themselves with. And in both cases, no one takes any personal responsibility whatsoever for their own actions, everything's been "caused" by the actions of others. (*sigh*) Things can be factual and still be stupid, folks. This is a good example of that. Zachary Klaas (talk) 12:59, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, if there had been a peer-reviewed article that said that women who carry mace are more likely to be attacked, would you have put that on Misplaced Pages's front page as a "neutral" science article? Or would you have recognised that as a way to explain away attacks on women? Zachary Klaas (talk) 13:05, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Hey, what happened to the DYK in question? Did it get removed? L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:55, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

They do change them routinely. I'd like to think people understood this DYK was pointlessly harassing, but more likely it was just time to change it for a new one. Zachary Klaas (talk) 14:13, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

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