Misplaced Pages

Talk:TERF (acronym)

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tsumiki (talk | contribs) at 02:32, 7 May 2019 (→Undue weight tag: cmt). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 02:32, 7 May 2019 by Tsumiki (talk | contribs) (→Undue weight tag: cmt)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the TERF (acronym) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 45 days 
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

WikiProject iconLGBTQ+ studies Start‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the TERF (acronym) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 45 days 

Note on migration of content

This page previously redirected to Feminist views on transgender topics: The term "TERF". Following ongoing concerns throughout that talk page for content length, and the moderately supported suggestion there that the "terf"-word content would belong better in its own article, I've now perhaps boldly migrated the majority of that content here. Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 00:50, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I suppose this was inevitable. If it localizes the contentiousness about this term here, rather than spreading it to other articles, then I guess that's one point in its favor. Mathglot (talk) 09:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Should mention assault by Tara Wolf in Speaker's Corner

The article should mention that trans activists yelling "terf" have assaulted a feminist in London. This was covered very widely by the news and its aftermath is why Meghan Murphy wrote the piece calling it hate speech.

In the news:

  • The Guardian
  • The New Statesman
  • The Telegraph
  • The Times
  • The Evening Standard
  • The Daily Mail

And on Feminist Current (apart from the "TERF is hate speech" article):

This was on Misplaced Pages before. Any reason it was taken out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.203.144.181 (talk) 16:08, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comment. This article is focused on the word "TERF" itself, as a word. You can find some information about the Speaker's Corner dispute in the article Feminist views on transgender topics § Incidents between trans activists and trans exclusionary feminists. You are welcome to participate in the talk page discussion for that article, if you think more should be added. Cheers, gnu57 16:16, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree that the Speakers Corner incident is notable. And I agree that this article is primarily about the word "terf" rather than the related theories/perspectives. The lines between topics are grey. If you can add an appropriate synopsis here, we could discuss further. And/or, the article Gnu links immediately above, and the article section Radical feminism § Views on transgender topics are both very relevant to the content you highlight. A145GI15I95 (talk) 17:08, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I think the incident is not really about the theories, but about the word. The group that attacked the feminist were chanting "when terfs attack, we fight back" when the woman was attacked. Afterwards, they kept using hate speech on social media while defending the attackers and making jokes about it. That's why Meghan Murphy wrote the whole article calling it hate speech. That article is already linked as a citation, but the actual context is left out. Isn't that a big omission? It's also mentioned very briefly on the page you linked. There used to be much better coverage there about it a while ago. Weird that it was removed. 2A02:908:C70:52C0:92C:90AB:4086:3C8A (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Alright, it does seem sensible to add some info here about the use of the word in that context—particularly if the incident led to additional commentary on the word. Where should it go, though? Maybe in the paragraph about deplatforming and violent rhetoric? Cheers, gnu57 18:42, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I don't know how/where it was included before, nor when/why it was removed. I encourage you to draft its re-inclusion on one or more of the relevant pages noted above—as a bold addition to live content, on a talk page, or in a sandbox. As to where it might go if added to this article, I don't know, it would depend greatly on how it was worded. Perhaps within "opposition to the word"? Perhaps in a new section "political usage" or "connection to violence" (just brainstormed ideas)? Best regards, A145GI15I95 (talk) 23:00, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
I disagree this incident should be included, because this is an article about the term "TERF" itself, not the people that the term refers to. Not every use of this term deserves to be added to the article. The page on the term Asshole doesn't include every time someone has called someone else an asshole, or even every time someone has punched someone else while calling them an asshole. LokiTheLiar (talk) 00:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
While I've not an opinion on whether content regarding the 2017 Speakers' Corner incident could be added to this article, I see now it is included on one of the other articles we've already mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/Feminist_views_on_transgender_topics#Incidents_between_trans_activists_and_trans-exclusionary_feminists A145GI15I95 (talk) 02:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTNEWS "News reports. Misplaced Pages considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. For example, routine news reporting of announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information. Timely news subjects not suitable for Misplaced Pages may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews. Misplaced Pages is also not written in news style." ShimonChai (talk) 09:02, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

"Their inclusion of trans men as women"

I notice there's been a dispute between A145 and an IP in the history on the wording of two sentences. One of them I think A145 is right about: that article definitely doesn't unambiguously say that TERF is not a slur, though it does imply the authors don't think it is right now. The other one, however, I think is contentious: the IP has been editing the clause "calling it inaccurate (citing, for example, their inclusion of trans men as women)" in ways that make it clear that trans activists do not regard this as "inclusion" at all. And I think they have at least a partial point here: I don't think we should be saying "their inclusion of trans men as women" in WP's voice, because while the source certainly says that that is what they claim, the way we are currently phrasing it implies not only that we agree that they say it but that we agree that including trans men as women counts as inclusion, which is a very contentious claim to say the least. LokiTheLiar (talk) 01:19, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Please don't single me out. Another editor reverted the IP's first addition (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=TERF&diff=894550891&oldid=894543603), before it was re-added, and I then re-reverted it (and I noted this and linked to the previous diff in my change log). I assume you meant no ill will here, however.
By the way, this sentence previously said their inclusion of trans men until as women was appended (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Feminist_views_on_transgender_topics&diff=next&oldid=892514624).
I disagree that the wording endorses a perspective. But I appreciate the concern. To improve, we could drop the verbose …for example…. Then, would we qualify that the inclusion is in their definition/viewpoint/perspective/theory (and how many instances of "the/a/an/their" are minimal)?
…(citing inclusion of trans men within their definition of women)…
…(citing the inclusion of trans men within their view of feminism)…
A145GI15I95 (talk) 02:33, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Oh, whoops, missed that. But, I would say we should break the sentence up, and make it: They object to being labeled as TERFs, calling it inaccurate based on their claims that they include trans men as women. They also argue the term to be a slur or even hate speech. As an aside, I would also like a second source for that claim, since the provided source only says that trans-exclusionary radical feminists "are inclusive of trans men" and doesn't actually say anything about "as women", but even other sources we already cite are definitely enough to prove that most trans-exclusionary radical feminists do not include trans men as men. LokiTheLiar (talk) 03:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Sentence is now additionally sourced. Regarding the latest suggested wording: It seems strange to write "their claims that they include trans men"—they don't claim to include trans men, they do include trans men. Maybe: They object to being labeled as TERFs. They consider it inaccurate (as they include trans men, whom they regard as female). And they argue the term to be a slur or even hate speech. A145GI15I95 (talk) 04:40, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that you're getting the objection here. Trans-exclusionary feminists say that they include trans men, who they regard as women, but nearly nobody who is not them accepts this, because "including" trans men as women is like a Christian group claiming they "include" gay men as sinners. Most trans groups, and even some neutral observers, dispute the claim that trans-exclusionary feminists include trans men in a meaningful sense. I'll go find sources for this. LokiTheLiar (talk) 18:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
My understanding of the objection is this:
- The group called TERFs sees trans men as females, and thus they include trans men in their vision of feminism, and thus they say they're not trans-exclusive, but rather male-exclusive, because they see feminism as a movement for biologically sexed females, not socially gendered women.
- The objection raised just recently here is to ensure we're not saying in Misplaced Pages's voice that trans men are female, as that would be an endorsement of a non-neutral view. The IP editor has voiced this objection by adding to the article "even though they are absolutely not women" (diff) and "although they are not women" (diff).
A145GI15I95 (talk) 19:19, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
I didn't follow Loki's objection at first, because AFAIK even people who don't share the view that trans men are females don't dispute that it is the view of the people in question. In the analogy, certain Christians do include gay men in the category of "sinners" (and in that, the Christians even treat the gay men accordingly), even as others disagree. It did stand out to me that if we were going to say anything about whether the people in question actually help trans men, then we'd probably need to use "they say they do X" phrasing; I guess I see the objection that the sentence should already add something about " including trans men as women counts as inclusion". Could it be reworded to just say they "consider trans men to be women" (and/or should we say "...females"?)...? But no, the reason for using "include" is that the sentence is about whether they're inclusive or exclusive and of whom. How about let's try to assemble references that talk about why considering trans men to be women should/does or shouldn't/doesn't constitute "inclusion", and perhaps also any references on ways in which the people in question treat, help, or hurt trans men, and then use those to figure out whether and how to expand on the current phrasing. -sche (talk) 21:31, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
A145: close but not quite. The problem is not that we're saying that trans men are female in Misplaced Pages's voice. The problem is we're saying that "including trans men as women" counts as inclusion in Misplaced Pages's voice when most trans men would say that refusing their gender identity is excluding them.
sche: Unfortunately, I can find a bunch of arguments by activists about this but essentially no reliable sources. So, for example this Medium piece by a random activist, or this tweet by Graham Linehan and its replies. The most prominent source I could find was an anti-SJ Youtuber mocking the argument on Twitter LokiTheLiar (talk) 23:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
They still include trans men in their definitions, even though trans men refuse the inclusion. How about modifying the inclusion, such as They consider it inaccurate (citing their misgendered inclusion of trans men as women).? A145GI15I95 (talk) 00:26, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
I still really would prefer "alleged" or "claimed" inclusion. Alternatively, we could do something like They object to the term TERF, calling it inaccurate, and argue that the term is a slur or even hate speech. without mentioning the particular reason. It only appears based on one quote in one article, and is otherwise extremely hard to reliably source information about, which to me seems to indicate that it's a part of the debate that hasn't really filtered into reliable sources yet, which in turn seems like a good reason to avoid too much detail about it. LokiTheLiar (talk) 06:02, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
The text has three cites. It's helpful to offer readers, as briefly as possible, how the group claims inaccuracy of the label. We could also break the trans-men-inclusion parenthetical to a separate sentence, and add the group's further defense that they exclude trans women because they define TWs as male (as opposed to b/c TWs are trans). But I've only seen one reliably published source for that second defense.
You said "most trans men would say that refusing their gender identity is excluding them". I'd instead say "most trans men would say that refusing their gender identity is misgendering them". TMs wouldn't argue the situation to be exclusion, they'd argue that they shouldn't be included. How does qualifying this inclusion as "misgendered" not concisely show this, please? A145GI15I95 (talk) 17:59, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
I mean, the Medium piece I linked above has the most explicit version of the counterargument, and it says If you’re not actually accepting of what they’re telling you they are and are instead calling them something they find offensive — you’re not actually accepting or loving of that person. The reason "misgendered" isn't enough is that it's not the (only) contested part here. It's like, we wouldn't say that TERF is a slur in WP's voice because that's contested between the two sides of the argument described in the page, so we also shouldn't say that TERFs include trans men because whether or not they do is contested. We shouldn't accept a quote from an activist as a source for a statement in WP's voice when we can find only one reliable source of the claim and several (admittedly unreliable) sources of trans activists disputing the claim. (Especially since the quote from the Inside Higher Ed article doesn't support the whole clause: the person quoted in the article only says that they accept trans men, not that trans men are women). LokiTheLiar (talk) 05:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Isn't it just a sort of ven-diagram inclusion (within their definition of females/oppressed people who need feminism) that they're talking about? I suppose we could make that clearer with "within their definition of women", or "whom they regard as female", as A145 suggested. But I really don't see a major problem with the status quo: it's obvious that the idea is coming from them rather than from Misplaced Pages (whereas if the article were to say "misgendered" or "even though they are absolutely not women", that would be using Misplaced Pages's voice). The article should neutrally present other people's arguments, not start making its own or drawing conclusions that one side is correct and the other mistaken. Cheers, gnu57 09:01, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Loki, I apologize, I didn't look at your unreliable sources, because you admitted they're unreliable. I could also link several unreliable sources that go into further detail on the group's argued defense that they don't exclude trans folk since they include trans men in their definition of women, in their definition of whom feminism covers. But I think this is adequately summarized in the reliable sources.

I agree with Gnu's "Venn diagram" assessment. I don't see how "we shouldn't say TERFs include trans men because whether they do is contested" can be argued. The former group includes the latter in their definitions of terms and theory. The latter group may argue against such inclusion (argue it's a rejection of their gender identity and their sense of self), but that can't negate the fact that the inclusion within definitions has already occurred.

Regarding objection to the phrase "as women", would it help to strike those two words? Their meaning seems obvious within the context, whether we include these two words or not.

In writing "misgendered isn't enough", you seem to indicate it would at least be an improvement. I agree with Gnu that we must present sides without taking sides, yet I think the addition of "misgendered" could add enough meaning while maintaining enough neutrality.

…calling it inaccurate (citing, for example, their inclusion of trans men as women)…

They consider it inaccurate (citing their misgendered inclusion of trans men).

They consider it inaccurate (citing their inclusion of trans men in their definition of women).

They consider it inaccurate (citing their inclusion of trans men in their definition of feminism and of whose rights feminism advocates).

Thank you for this continued dialogue, by the way. I've honestly been trying to understand your position. A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

  • I've added a "perceived" so it flows into "citing their perceived inclusion of trans men as women". Hopefully this will clarify things to a limited degree. Alternatively, we can use "citing their classification/consideration of trans men to be women". Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 21:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Please don't change this contested line without pursuing new consensus first. As written above, the inclusion isn't perceived. A145GI15I95 (talk) 22:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Reading the discussion above, I don't see a consensus in support of the status quo version you're defending. The rough consensus among experienced editors are certainly in opposition to stating in wikivoice that "trans men are included in women" as objective fact. Since the statement in question is tantamount to "We are not homophobic because we consider gay men to be women" or "We are not antisemitic because we consider Jews to be Arabs". So you can see how "citing, for example, their inclusion of gay men as women"/"Jews as Arabs" are extremely problematic. Even brief changes such as "citing their classification of trans men to be women" and "citing their claim that trans men are women" are infinitely better in terms of clarity. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 22:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
The current wording has existed since April 14 (over two weeks). There was a bold change on April 28 (three days ago), it was reverted, re-added, re-reverted, and we've since been discussing. Suggestions for improvement have been offered. No consensus exists yet for change. The article doesn't say "trans men are included in women", it says "their inclusion of trans men as women". This means the group (called terfs) is doing this inclusion—not us editors, not Misplaced Pages. Would you find any of the three example lines above (in green) to be an improvement over the current text, could you provide feedback on them, or could you offer new concrete suggestions, please? A145GI15I95 (talk) 23:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Maybe making it clear that this supposed inclusion of trans men as women is seen by many trans men as cruel or insulting would help resolve the editing conflict here? I think this academic article, Trans Men Engaging, Reforming, and Resisting Feminisms, could be a strong secondary source for that. Rab V (talk) 23:55, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
In addition to the three current rewords above, here's a fourth: They consider it inaccurate, citing their inclusion of trans men in their definition of feminism (a classification that trans men refuse as misgendering). A145GI15I95 (talk) 00:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Minor note but I'd prefer breaking off the parenthetical phrase into its own sentence. Rab V (talk) 00:34, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I am okay with that last rephrasing and I think I also support breaking off the parenthetical? Don't really have a strong opinion on that part though. LokiTheLiar (talk) 02:06, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
If we were to expand that new parenthetical to its own sentence, the new sentence wouldn't fit the scope of the "opposition to the word" section, it would belong instead under "responses". More detail there could help, but would it solve the original concern? They consider it inaccurate, citing their inclusion of trans men in their definition of feminism. Trans men refuse inclusion in any definition of feminism as a form of misgendering. ) A145GI15I95 (talk) 04:37, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I'd be happy with They consider it inaccurate, citing they consider trans men as women and include trans men in their definition of feminism, (Immediately succeeding) Trans men and supporters reject this inclusion, consider it contradictory and in line with those feminists' transmisogyny. Note this quote from Socialist Worker source: "It is worth noting, however, the divisive and contradictory position they held, wherein trans men were allowed on the land because TERFs considered them “women-born” as part of their transmisgynist ideology."Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 05:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I've added a response to the "inclusion" defense in the appropriate section (diff). Please feel free to add more detail and more responses there. My concern for maintaining structure is that if we dissolve sections into tip-for-tap, we'll have mud (like this article's parent). A145GI15I95 (talk) 17:48, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I think it's good to mention the relationship of trans men to feminism/exclusionary feminists here insofar as it relates to criticism of/defenses of the term—but more detail on that belongs in the parent article instead, which currently has almost nothing about trans men. Cheers, gnu57 18:17, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

@A145GI15I95: Do you have any specific objection to this reword of mine? calling it inaccurate, citing that they consider trans men to be women (a categorization trans men reject as contradictory and transmisogynistic) Because otherwise I can only see this as stonewalling. You've seen throughout the history of this article numerous people have objected to the "status quo" version you're defending. A minority, mainstream-rejected belief cannot go unchallenged in-line like that, because this is directly equivalent to, for example, "we cannot be homophobes because we consider gay men to be women". Any revision would infinitely less misleading than current one. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 01:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Just to record my opinion: even though I think a smaller change would have been sufficient, it shouldn't be surprising that I'm in favor of Tsumikiria's change and opposed to a revert to the status quo. LokiTheLiar (talk) 01:35, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I think it's reasonable to keep all the opposition to the word in one section and all the responses to that opposition in another. (And A145 did add material about trans men to the response section earlier today.) I'm more concerned with ensuring that it's clear that the idea comes from them rather than from Misplaced Pages, than with whether the rebuttal follows immediately or is given further on. Cheers, gnu57 02:08, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
My primary objection is that the contested content was added yet again without consensus. Additionally, "transmisogynistic" applies to trans women not trans men, and (less importantly) use of both "reject" and "contradictory" is verbose. / If you'd like more detail on this topic, again please add it to the appropriate section. / I've been very communicative and responsive here, my actions are hardly stonewalling. / Regarding "numerous" objections: Consensus is not a vote-count. If we were to count votes whether to change it or leave it, we appear tied. This wording was stable for over two weeks. / Here is a new suggestion. Note that it 1) uses the word "inclusion" (crux of their argument), 2) concisely qualifies (casts appropriate doubt on) the inclusion, and 3) states clearly it's their definition, not ours: They consider the label inaccurate (citing their misgendered inclusion of trans men in their definition of feminism). A145GI15I95 (talk) 03:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
There is no consensus for the wording currently on the page and rough consensus are not in favor of it. Read the source. "Contradictory" and "transmisogynistic" is directly taken from the SocialistWorker, repeat: "It is worth noting, however, the divisive and contradictory position they held, wherein trans men were allowed on the land because TERFs considered them “women-born” as part of their transmisgynist ideology.". In other words, SW is saying that TERFs consider trans men to be women precisely because they have this trans-woman-hating ideology. Merely writing "misgendered inclusion" is problematic because it implies unintention whereby TERFs here are deliberate hatred. "Their inclusion of" is still wikivoice implying that this inclusion is correct or unproblematic, which is clearly not. Plus, we can definitely use anchor to link trans men's response inline to the larger section below, for the reader's benefit. And for clarity, I'd propose a rewrite to the entire sentence: They argue that they cannot be trans-exclusionary because they consider trans men as women - an argument rejected/dismissed as contradictory and stemming from transmisogyny by trans men. They further argue the term is a slur and even hate speech. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 04:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Ok, I like this suggestion because it makes it clear whom the different ideas are coming from. How about just "They argue that they cannot be trans-exclusionary because they consider trans men as women—an argument rejected by trans men.? And then leave the full details of the rejection to the following section.By the way, sorry, I've lost track of the different sources a bit: do we actually have any right now saying what trans men themselves think of the claimed inclusion? The article Rab V suggested has a bit of related info:

Regardless of any lack of conflict between feminist and other identities, many men had experiences with feminists who were hostile to trans men. Some feminists denied that trans men were or could possibly be men, and others ostracized them from organizations and larger communities because they were either transgender or men, or both. When some feminists saw them solely as men,even if this did validate their identities, it denied the ways that their trans identity and their time living as girls or women modified their experiences as men. Several men reported that other feminists were quite cruel to them early in transition.

Cheers, gnu57 05:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I support Gnu's latest suggested wording, my previous suggestion, and the current wording. / Regarding your source question, Gnu, I don't see which article Rab V suggested, but the current line in our article (which begins "Regarding denials of…) includes a book reference supporting the claim of trans men's (and their allies') opinion. A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I also think gnu's wording is reasonable, and I think that we have enough consensus to put that wording in the article, so I'm going to go do that. LokiTheLiar (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Page protection

{{Edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}

May I ask we protect this page from IP edits? Reason for request is due to POV pushing and BRD ignoring (four times in twenty-four hours).

This is my first time requesting this, so I'm unsure of the correct format. WP:SEMI seems appropriate from WP:PROTECT, though I don't understand the wording in the template above ("what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it?"). Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 16:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to request pending changes, so that IPs can edit but their changes are vetted before they go live. FYI, the {{Edit semi-protected}} template is for requesting an edit to a protected page. WP:RFP is the central place to request the protection. Cheers, gnu57 16:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for placing the request (https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#TERF), and for explaining why the template I inserted above was incorrect. My eyes skipped the hatnote (which points to where requests are made) on WP:PP and went instead directly to the table of contents (which don't mention how to request at all). I've now no-wikied the incorrect template I added above. A145GI15I95 (talk) 17:00, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Page now protected, thanks. A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

"…but they have a 'high level of social, cultural, and economic capital'"

This text was added to the "Coinage and meaning" section: …but they have a "high level of social, cultural, and economic capital".

The citation is behind a paywall: https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/13/trans-and-feminist-rights-have-been-falsely-cast-in-opposition

Could a quotation with more context be added to this citation? Could a second source be added? Who says they have this? How certain is the source's claim? Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 22:18, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Added per request. Despite strong historic and contemporary links between many sections of feminist and trans communities, the anti-transgender sentiments expressed by some leading journalists and amplified through the use of social media are extremely problematic. While anti-transgender feminists are a minority, they have a high level of social, cultural and economic capital. Within these narratives, trans and feminist rights are being falsely cast in opposition. Feminist principles of bodily autonomy are abandoned as some anti-trans campaigners query other women’s genitals. Reductive models of biology and restrictive understandings of the distinction between sex and gender are used in defence of this position.
The Economist is an reliable source per WP:RSP. Questions on the validity of the source should be addressed to WP:RSN. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 22:29, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
I didn't say anything about reliability. Thanks for adding the quotation with more context to the citation. A145GI15I95 (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Major violation of WP:FRINGE

...or at the very least, a textbook case of WP:FALSEBALANCE. Per numerous reliable sources(NYT, Economist, Daily Dot, New Yorker, Outline, etc), the trans-exclusionist feminists are only a very resourced minority within the radical feminism movement, where the mainstream feminism movement worldwide have long ago rejected its transphobia and accepted transfeminism and trans people, with the United Kingdom being a sort of last stronghold of TERFism. Our article currently overrepresents this minority fringe opinion head first in even greater length than the mainstream opinion, which is a gravely unacceptable violation of our undue weight guideline. Additionally, writing the minority POV in lead equally as the mainstream one without mentioning that it is only a rejected but resourced minority concentrated in one country is intensely misleading and underserving for our readers. As the article is forked from Feminist views on transgender topics, the active neutrality and undue weight towards TERF banner on that page hasn't been resolved for several months. The following must be done:

  • Tag the page with Template:Fringe theories or similar banner until the false balance issues are resolved.
  • Trim the opposition section of irrelevant incidents. Major rewrite to reduce WP:QUOTEFARM and reduce it to appropriate weight. Non-prominent or unrepresentative opinions should not be featured at all.
  • Greatly expand the response section, with explanation on situation in United Kingdom and comparison to feminism movement of the rest of the world. Section rename. Rewrite to reduce quotefarm and improve readability.
  • If necessary, request WP:NPOVN review.

Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 05:16, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree that this article, like the article it was split off from, has a WP:FALSEBALANCE problem, but I think that WP:UNDUE is probably a better banner than WP:FRINGE. Even though I do think that trans-exclusionary radical feminism is at least on the line of being fringe, I would tend towards the side of saying it's not quite fringe both because of the UK situation and because there are definitely a few feminists who are well-known for other reasons who believe in it, which is not usually the case for fringe theories.
I would like to refocus the argument around scientific sources, except there are almost no scientific sources. I've been able to find three relevant academics that have said anything about the topic in any medium (Deborah Cameron, Rachel McKinnon, and the authors of the Japanese paper at the bottom of the responses section), and they're all already on the page. I would like to also link McKinnon's actual paper about the topic, though, especially since we're talking a lot about the response to it but are not actually citing it. LokiTheLiar (talk) 07:09, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Tsumikiria, what reliable source specifically states that trans-exclusionary feminists are a minority within radical feminism? There are reliable sources that state that trans-exclusionary feminists are a minority within feminism (note that "radical" is missing), but some, like this The Economist one, also note the power that these particular feminists have. Second, what reliable source do you have stating that trans-exclusionary feminist views are fringe? And, lastly, this article is about the acronym/term "TERF." It is a term article. All of this is why I reverted your tags.
As for LokiTheLiar speaking of scientific sources, like I told LokiTheLiar at Talk:Feminist views on transgender topics, except for calling this a social science topic, this is not a scientific topic. There are, however, academic sources on it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I would argue that this is a scientific topic because linguistics is science and whether a word is a slur is a topic within linguistics.
In any case, I'm at least adding an undue weight template because that definitely needs to be there. Misplaced Pages's rules make it easier to add a template than remove it, and for IMO good reason. LokiTheLiar (talk) 08:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Nothing scientific about it, in my opinion.
That tag doesn't belong either. Removing a template is also quite easy...when there is no valid justification for the template. It's why, for example, Template:POV states what it states about adding that template. There is no proof whatsoever that the assertion that "TERF is a slur" is WP:UNDUE. And looking at the current sourcing, the sourcing for the term being offensive/a slur is significantly stronger than the weak "Responses to opposition" sources (with perhaps the exception of the Current Affairs source). With perhaps the exception of the Current Affairs source, experienced Wikipedians would no way go by those weaker sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:19, 2 May 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:25, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Let me go over the sources in detail, and hopefully it will become obvious why there's a problem.
First of all, there are three sources by academics. Of those, none of them say that TERF is a slur. They run the gamut from "almost but not quite" to "no but it illustrates an interesting tension in the definition of slurs" to "the claim is ridiculous", but none actually endorses the claim that TERF is in fact a slur. (The most sympathetic one is also a blog by an academic and not an academic paper.) This alone is reasonably strong evidence that the page is giving undue weight to the opposing claim, but let's continue.
The strongest sources for the "TERF is a slur" side are the Economist calling it one and Teespring taking down a T-shirt. But here's an area where we could use some context: the Economist first of all is a British publication, and so falls into the caveat about this position being much less fringe in Britain. It's also easy to match it with several sources (the Daily Dot and USA Today have been mentioned before on these talk pages; also see the Irish Times and Pink News) who have described the term in their news voice in ways that make it clear they do not think it is a slur. And then for Teespring, the source we have for that incident says clearly that it was the result of a mass-report campaign by TERFs and that Teespring's removal is somewhat arbitrary since they have many things up in their store which clearly do have slurs, and yet we don't mention any of that and portray Teespring's removal of the shirt in a much more objective fashion. LokiTheLiar (talk) 19:29, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Eh? Besides the sources specifically addressing the slur aspect, they don't need to endorse the term as a slur to be giving the weight they are giving to it as a slur. And, really, "at worst a slur and at best derogatory" and The Economist stating that they would "avoid all slurs, including TERF" is endorsing the word as a slur.
Currently, the sources included in the "Responses to opposition" section are mostly poor. From what I see of the sources on this topic, the article is not lending undue weight to the idea that the "TERF" is a slur. The undue weight tag should be removed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for catching the full t-shirt story, Loki. A145GI15I95 (talk) 02:54, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I agree with adding more content to the "responses" section. I've added another bit today (diff), as I've just noted above (diff). I've not seen any resistance to adding more items and more details to that section, so please do so (WP:FIXIT). The remaining complaints of this new talk-page section seem otherwise reactionary, as already noted above. I appreciate the swift removal of most of these new tags, and I support removal of the remaining "undue weight" tag. A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Economist discussion

Hello all, two quick comments:

  1. I've just found out that the Economist never publishes the names of their staff: see here. The "London" in the ref was location, not last name. I think the Economist's editorial position should be retained, but attributed to the publication as a whole.
  2. This article was recently spun off from Feminist views on transgender topics. If you'd like to add information on viewpoints and movements, please focus your attention on there, so this doesn't become a redundant fork. Cheers, gnu57 20:59, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Oh, so that's why. Although I think if we cannot find the credentials of a writer, we should not feature it prominently in equal validity as content by named experts. I've removed it. If we are representing a publication's opinion as a whole, then we need third-party sources for that, not our own summaries. For example we can say The Guardian's US writers repudiated their UK counterparts for publishing a transphobic editorial, because this is featured in NYTimes. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 21:12, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Oh, ok. I was thinking we could take the piece itself as a statement of the Economist's editorial line, because it says

To coincide with the consultation, The Economist is hosting a series of essays from a range of people with interesting and varied viewpoints, insights and arguments on transgender identities.... In the interests of fostering open debate we have set ground rules, both for essays and reader comments: use the pronouns people want you to use, and avoid all slurs, including TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist), which may have started as a descriptive term but is now used to try to silence a vast swathe of opinions on trans issues, and sometimes to incite violence against women. Comments will be open but closely moderated.

If you'd like secondary sources which mention the Economist's banning "TERF", how about this or this? (Also, I would guess H.J. is Helen Joyce, but can't be certain). Cheers, gnu57 21:24, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I agree that "TERF is a slur" appears to indeed be the Economist's editorial line. But I think it's a huge violation of WP:UNDUE to list it and not mention that the Daily Dot, USA Today, and several other publications have all endorsed the use of the term fairly explicitly (not to mention all the papers which implicitly endorse it by using it). This is definitely a case where there is a dispute between reliable sources, and the bulk of the reliable sources lean against the Economist. To mention the Economist alone and exclude all the others is a big NPOV violation, akin to mentioning only pro-rent control economists in an article about rent control. LokiTheLiar (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
If other publications have indeed discussed and explicitly endorsed usage of the word, that's important information, please add it (WP:FIXIT). But that's not a reason to remove relevant, sourced, stable content (ie The Economist piece). By the way, could we please try to keep topics separated on this talk page? It's become difficult to follow, thank you. A145GI15I95 (talk) 01:39, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The way I see it, the Economist should be included because (a) they made an explicit statement about their editorial policy, and (b) it was found noteworthy by secondary sources. Another publication which did the same is the journal McKinnon published in, which we also mention; I've gone looking for others, but so far haven't turned up any. (Plenty of individual writers using or commenting on the term, obviously, but nothing as explicit editorial policy.) It's true that a number of women's publications have come out explicitly as pro-trans, like the ones that signed the response to AfterEllen, but that belongs on the parent page rather than this one. Cheers, gnu57 01:47, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
In what way do "the bulk of the reliable sources lean against the Economist"? Where are all these quality sources stating that "TERF" is not a slur? They are not in the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
All those reliable sources, NYT, Pinknews, Jezebel, directly call these TERFs out for being TERFs, directly, unambiguously, use TERF to describe anti-transgender feminists throughout those articles. This is a slap in the face against The Economist's manual that TERF is slur and cannot be used. If you successfully framed a word as bad, then the most useful evidence against the framing would be the continual and unabashed usage of it. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 04:51, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
What? Again, this article is about the term "TERF." We do not need yet another Feminist views on transgender topics article or "Trans-exclusionary radical feminism" article. More on that in the #New Sally Hines paragraph section below. I again ask, "Where are all these quality sources stating that 'TERF' is not a slur?" To repeat, they are not in the article. That trans-inclusive sources are using the term "TERF" as a descriptor is not the same thing as arguing that "TERF" is not a slur.
At least try to keep your POV in check. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
If you wanted to be obtuse, there's no news source that I could pull the actual quote "TERF is not a slur" from. However, the reason I call that conclusion obtuse is that while the Daily Dot and Pink News technically never say those words, the context in which they don't say those words is laying out detailed arguments for why TERF is not a slur. The fact that they don't state the conclusion should not be taken as a reason to not include these sources.
I think it's also pretty relevant to this article that this USA Today glossary defines "TERF" as "transphobic feminist". While it technically speaking is not a position on the conflict about whether it's a slur, it is certainly about the topic of this article, and not only that, in context it's an endorsement of the term.
Taking a step back: while I think a statement like "newspapers X, Y, and Z have used the term" is edging too close to WP:SYNTH, I do think that we as editors do not have to, and in fact should not, evaluate the balance of sources based on whether we can put them in the article, and that while it wouldn't be very encyclopedia-like for many reasons to actually include every single news source that uses or permits the use of the word, the fact that many do should be taken into account when we determine the proper weight of the page. I don't think that any of us are fooled when far-right sources say "racist is a slur against white people", even though there are very few explicit rebuttals to that claim in reliable sources, because the overwhelming use of the word "racist" in reliable sources is an implicit rebuttal. I don't think we're even fooled when an opinion piece in a reliable source says "illegal immigrant is a slur", because that term is very commonly used in reliable sources, even though I don't think there's any reliable source that actually refutes the argument. To not use common sense here would lead to absurd conclusions, in this article as in those examples. LokiTheLiar (talk) 08:07, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
You are again using faulty comparisons to argue that Misplaced Pages should work in a way that it should not.
And there is nothing obtuse about following Misplaced Pages's rules appropriately. If you want use a WP:Personal attack (like the "obtuse" one) or keep challenging my many years of knowledge of how this site works and is supposed to work, then I suppose I'll have to just prove you wrong every time with an RfC or via taking you to some noticeboard. I don't even know how many times your rationales have been out of step with the general community's at this point. And your comparisons, which are always off, are beyond tiring. I don't mind mention of the USA Today glossary or similar since this article is about the word. But we are not going to include a bunch of definitional text since even our articles about words "must go beyond what would be found in a dictionary entry (definition, pronunciation, etymology, use information, etc.), and include information on the social or historical significance of the term. While published dictionaries may be useful sources for lexical information on a term, the presence of a term in a dictionary does not by itself establish notability." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:33, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
FWIW, I genuinely did not mean to call you in particular obtuse. That was supposed to be a hypothetical "you" referring to a hypothetical person who made that argument, and I apologize for being unclear.
That being said, I would like to accuse you of something very much like stonewalling here, because you keep accusing me of being "out of step with the general community" and threatening that you would win a dispute when the only RfC we've actually had on any topic was inconclusive. I don't want to claim my views are the consensus either, because I don't think we have a consensus, but I do think that also means your views are not consensus, and I would like to politely request that you stop pretending like they are. LokiTheLiar (talk) 09:08, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm the one who asked, "Where are all these quality sources stating that 'TERF' is not a slur?" So for you to state that your "obtuse" sentence was made in a general "you" sense is being disingenuous. Of course it was referring to me. Your whole post was a response to me. If you wouldn't keep making comments or edits that are out of step with the general community's views on how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work, I wouldn't state it. Stating that the general community would agree with me is not a threat. It's a fact, based on years of experience. For example, as is clear to others, it is a fact that your "Many feminist media organizations" addition is out of step with how things are supposed to be done on this site. WP:STONEWALL states, "Status quo stonewalling is disruptive behavior in opposition to a proposed change when substantive argument based in policy." Your arguments are often not based in policy or on a Misplaced Pages guideline. They are often odd interpretations of a policy to support your argument, addition, or proposed addition. No one would find me pointing out your errors as disruptive. You generally stick to your arguments even when more experienced editors point out why you are wrong. Even in the "Many feminist media organizations" case, you had rebuttals. And that RfC? It was started by you and doesn't really address the issues at the beginning. For editors not familiar with the topic and/or article, more background material/context is needed for them to make a choice on "lacks NPOV" and "undue weight to (trans-exclusionary) radical feminist views." That is, unless they read the talk page and/or article. RfCs started by me tend to go differently. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

New Sally Hines paragraph

What does the new "Sally Hines" paragraph (diff) have to with the word "terf", please? The word isn't mentioned once in the paragraph's single source (which is behind a paywall, but I found a free copy, which I would post here in full for everyone, but I'm afraid that'd be a copyright violation). A145GI15I95 (talk) 01:32, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, that would be great content for the parent article rather than this one. gnu57 01:49, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, to be clear to User:Tsumikiria, this article is about the word "TERF", not about TERFs. That's Feminist views on transgender topics. I agree we should definitely move that section to the parent article. LokiTheLiar (talk) 02:18, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I was just coming to this talk page to state that the current "Responses to opposition" section shouldn't include the "Regarding denials of trans-exclusion based on inclusion of trans men in feminism" piece and the Sally Hines piece...since neither is about the word. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I definitely share concerns that we keep this article's content relevant to the word itself. I think the "it's misgendering" response to the "we're not exclusive, we include trans men" defense is acceptable as a response to an objection to the word. But the Hines paragraph, as I stated above, looks very out of place. A145GI15I95 (talk) 04:58, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Okay, I see. But this article shouldn't be limited to the word. Ideally, this should be a page titled "Trans-exclusionary feminism" whereby TERF is one of the major sections, as an alternative way to resolve the UNDUE FALSEBALANCE problems. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 05:16, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
As the hatnote says, all of that content is currently in Radical feminism § Views on transgender topics and Feminist views on transgender topics. This page was created very recently as a spinoff, to discuss only the word, as a word. I would be grateful if you would participate in the discussion on reworking/expanding those pages (particularly the main "Feminist views" one): that's where all of the general information on viewpoints belongs. Cheers, gnu57 05:34, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Tsumikiria, I would love for that article to exist, because it would, in my opinion, solve many of the problems of the parent page. However, it currently doesn't and this isn't it. I agree it would be good if you went over to the parent page and argued for the creation of that page over there. (Or heck, there's nothing stopping you from just making it; I don't think anyone disagrees that it's notable, and while there's certainly at least one person has opposed its creation over on the other page, I don't think there would be a consensus to delete.) LokiTheLiar (talk) 06:08, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
As I noted at that talk page, I would oppose that creation. "It would truly be a WP:Content fork issue. Like WP:POV fork states, 'In contrast, POV forks generally arise when contributors disagree about the content of an article or other page. Instead of resolving that disagreement by consensus, another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) is created to be developed according to a particular point of view. This second article is known as a 'POV fork' of the first, and is inconsistent with Misplaced Pages policies. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major points of view on a certain subject should be treated in one article. As Misplaced Pages does not view article forking as an acceptable solution to disagreements between contributors, such forks may be merged, or nominated for deletion.'"
Having both a "Trans-exclusionary radical feminism" article and a TERF article would be completely unnecessary content forking, especially since so many sources about trans-exclusionary radical feminism are specifically about that term (as a simple Google search shows). And then there is the redundancy issue, which would not be a simple redundancy issue that is expected. Trans-exclusionary radical feminism is mainly attributed to radical feminism. Common sense and WP:Content forking tells us that trans-exclusionary radical feminist content that is not redundant to radical feminism content should be covered in the Radical feminism article. It is the term "TERF" that is WP:Notable, not the concept. Again, a simple Google search shows this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
And we do not create false balance. As for you not thinking that there would be consensus to delete? Maybe not among the few involved in these discussions. But among the Misplaced Pages community in general? There very likely would be consensus to delete after I demonstrate, via the sources (although anyone is free to Google themselves), that the sources are mainly about the term, not the topic. The article might not be deleted, but it would be refocused to be about the term...just like the sources are. Any sources not using the word "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" to add material about trans-exclusionary radical feminism would likely be argued as WP:Synthesis. Don't believe me? Do see Talk:Slut-shaming/Archive 1#RfC: Is it WP:Synthesis to use sources that do not identify the topic as slut-shaming to make claims about slut-shaming?. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:12, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm aware you would oppose the creation; you are in fact the editor I was thinking of when I mentioned there would be at least one person opposed. However, I disagree. For one, I don't think you've presented any serious evidence that it would be a POV fork or meaningfully redundant. For two, the topic is clearly notable (here's three articles from reliable sources that are directly about trans-exclusionary radical feminists), and for three it's a much more coherent topic than is currently presented on the Feminist views on transgender topics page. The existence of Feminist views on pornography and Feminist views on prostitution did not prevent the creation of the articles sex-positive feminism or feminist sex wars. LokiTheLiar (talk) 08:33, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
No duh that I was the editor you were referring to. As for evidence, I don't know what evidence you are expecting beyond what WP:Content forking states and what a simple Google search of TERF and Trans-exclusionary radical feminist show. Those Google searches show that the terms are mainly about, well, the terms. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:44, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Two points:
1. Your searches actually cut against your point. On the first page of your TERF search I count five sources that are about the ideology to three that are about the term (not counting Misplaced Pages). (The only two reliable sources on the first page are about the term, but then that situation reverses on the next page.) Similarly for the search of the full phrase I count seven which are primarily about the ideology (five reliable) to two which are about the term (one reliable). A couple of these talk about both, but even so your assertion is simply false.
2. Even if you were right, this whole counting thing would be entirely irrelevant, because the important criterion for making a page is not the relative number of sources that appear on a Google search but the absolute number of independent reliable sources about the topic. It wouldn't actually matter if those sources were the minority of sources on Google as long as they exist. Heck, it wouldn't matter if there were no sources on Google at all as long as sufficient sources existed in some form; the internet is merely the most convenient place to look for sources, and not the only place. LokiTheLiar (talk) 09:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Your search results must somehow be different than mine. On that first page for "TERF," I see the following pages: "Urban Dictionary: TERF," "TERF - Misplaced Pages," "Feminist views on transgender topics - Misplaced Pages," "Are You a TERF? – Rachel Anne Williams – Medium," "10 TERF 'arguments' that need to stop – Cursed E – Medium," "The TERFs" (from theterfs.com), "Trans-exclusionary radical feminism - RationalWiki," "What is a Terf? How an internet buzzword became a mainstream slur," "TERF | Geek Feminism Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia," "I'm credited with having coined the word 'Terf'. Here's how it happened." Why are you counting sources such as Medium when I've already been clear with you that those WP:About self sources are not WP:Reliable sources? The only WP:Reliable sources on that page are about the term. When we look further past page 1 (meaning so on and so on), we see that most of the sources are also about the term. On the first page for "Trans-exclusionary radical feminist," it's more of the same. That there exists articles talking about the dispute between trans-exclusive and trans-inclusive feminists doesn't negate the fact that material specifically titled "TERF" or "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" are mainly about the term; this is especially the case for "TERF" (without it being spelled out). And although there are sources like this The New York Times opinion piece or this HuffPost piece, most of the articles (the reliable ones) speaking on trans-exclusionary radical feminist views are not specifically about trans-exclusionary radical feminist views. They are about the dispute between trans-exclusive and trans-inclusive feminists. And we already have the Feminist views on transgender topics article for that.
The most important criterion for creating a Misplaced Pages article is WP:Notability. And WP:No page is a part of that. When sources are mostly about a term, it's not exactly best to attempt to make the article broader than that. Furthermore, there have been a number of cases on Misplaced Pages where topics that have support in different reliable sources are deleted; this is sometimes because the different reliable sources don't indicate true notability. Sometimes they don't meet WP:GNG. Sometimes they should go beyond WP:GNG; for instance, in the case of Misplaced Pages:Notability (events). This isn't about Google. When it comes to Misplaced Pages, Google is simply there to help assess matters, as it always does in cases of notability, whether or not to move an article, and other Misplaced Pages issues.
And going back to content forking, it's a fact that having both a "Trans-exclusionary radical feminism" article and a TERF article would be a content fork violation. That is what I was arguing with regard to content forking. I cited the relevant aspect of the WP:Content forking guideline above for everyone to see. As we know, "TERF" stands for "trans-exclusionary radical feminist." So it makes no sense to have an article called "TERF" and another called ""Trans-exclusionary radical feminism." We wouldn't, for example, have an article called "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender" in addition to the LGBT article. Sure, we have a LGBT community article and an LGBT social movements article, but that's obviously different. Editors would vote to merge the "Trans-exclusionary radical feminism" article with the "TERF" article in a heartbeat. As for the "TERF movement" or "TERF ideology," it's just trans-exclusive material with the label "TERF" on it. Again, we already have the Radical feminism and Feminist views on transgender topics articles for those views. The "TERF" article should remain focused on the term. Even the TERF material in the Radical feminism article is focused on the term. Well, before going into the views specifically. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:21, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Gnu, thank you for moving this Hines paragraph to the more appropriate article. Tsumikiria, please join the talk page there for discussions of theory. A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:20, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Since you've taken this page off your watchlist, I'm going to be brief, since this is mostly to inform other editors why I disagree and not to actually argue any more.

I think your example about LGBT is interesting, because if you go not too far away we have an article about the term gay and an article about homosexuality. This is basically the exact situation we'd be in with this article. (I agree if we make an article about the movement, we should probably rename this article to "TERF (term)" or something like that for clarity.)

As for the counts: I agree that most of those sources aren't reliable, which is why I gave separate counts for both all and reliable sources. On the first page of "TERF" there's a Guardian source and a New Statesman source, both about the term. On the second page, there's a NYT opinion piece about the ideology, a USA Today piece which is about both but focuses on the ideology, an Insider Higher Ed source which is about a controversy surrounding the term, and two explainers from Huffington Post and TransAdvocate which are about the movement. The stuff in the trans-exclusionary radical feminist search is largely the same: a bunch of explainers about the movement. Some of these explainers also do explain what the term means, but that doesn't mean they're (primarily) about the term. Because of this and the sources on the parent page, I think that the movement is more than notable enough to have its own page. LokiTheLiar (talk) 23:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

It's off my watchlist, but I have checked back for a reply from you. At the Feminist views on transgender topics talk page, I pretty much asked you to ping me if you reply to me, but I also stated that it's best that you don't go and start making late replies to my comments. It's not right if you know that I won't be there to reply back.
Having a Homosexuality article and an article about the term gay is not at all the same thing as having both a Trans-exclusionary radical feminist article and a TERF article, and I think you know that. But if an editor wants to try to WP:Game the system on that matter, that editor will be sorely disappointed when the two articles are merged. I would see to a merge in that regard. A Homosexuality article and the article about the term gay (which also covers its initial usage, "gay" to mean "stupid" or "lame," and "gay" to mean "LGBT community") are not the same subject. No matter how you slice it, trans-exclusionary radical feminist and TERF are the same subject. Even our term articles are about a subject.
Except for "aren't reliable," we won't be agreeing on the counts matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Flyer22 Reborn Sorry for not pinging you; I genuinely did not see that. That's also all I'm going to say for now; I don't have any more interest in continuing this argument with you than you appear to have in continuing this argument with me. LokiTheLiar (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Minority, resourced (capital)

Does this content—feminists who exclude trans women, a minor but resourced faction within feminism (diff)—belong in the lede? I could be wrong, but it seems not directly related to the word "terf". It's also a bit of a bold claim, worthy of additional sourcing, please (its only source appears to be the Hines piece again). Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 01:35, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes. I'm firmly against pitting this as merely supporter versus opposition in lead because this directly imply they're of equal validity when they're not, creating a false impression of balance. We should definitely note that anti-trans feminists, which are the primary/predominant group being described by the word, are the minority. TERFs being socially, culturally and economically resourced is exactly why they've been able to frame the word as a slur and have this argument proliferate in the United Kingdom. This is pertinent information directly related to (the opposition of) the word. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 04:34, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
When we say "minor faction / minority within feminism", do we mean at a high level (authors, academics), are we talking about advocacy or activists groups, or is this meant to describe the masses of lay folk? It's genuinely unclear to me. The "resourced / high level of capital" claim in particular is bold (as each side has claimed to be the underdog). Having more than one source, with quotes in their citations, for controversial statements, increases credibility and understanding, especially if it belongs in the lede. A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:30, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't think each side has claimed to be the underdog? Most of the "TERFs are a minority" citations are from trans-inclusive feminists. What I think is actually going on is that American feminists say that TERFs are a minority, while British feminists say that TERFs are alarmingly powerful. LokiTheLiar (talk) 21:20, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Regarding which side has a "high level of social, cultural, and economic capital", see for example this article (which I found just now on Google) in The Washington Times—"The money behind the transgender movement" (), which seems to claim the trans movement would be nowhere today without old, rich, white men pulling strings (I don't know, I've not read it). And regarding which side is the "minority", see for example this article in NewStateman—"Are you now or have you ever been a TERF?" ()—which begins "most people hold beliefs which could see them labelled a 'TERF'". Additionally, it's not hard to google and find blogs and comment sections arguing it's the terf-labeled side, not the trans side, who gets unfairly ignored and mistreated as "underdogs". To be clear, I'm not arguing one position or the other. I'm saying it's a strong claim that deserves more than one source. A145GI15I95 (talk) 04:36, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
The "American feminists say that TERFs are a minority, while British feminists say that TERFs are alarmingly powerful" statement is contradicted by The Economist source calling trans-exclusive feminists a minority while also stating that they have "a high level of social, cultural, and economic capital." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
An archive of the Hines/Economist article's text is visible at https://archive.fo/7fvsg. The author cites no evidence to back her claims. A145GI15I95 (talk) 16:24, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Many WP:Reliable sources don't cite a source, and that includes most of the sources in this article. As has been discussed times before on this site, WP:Reliable sources does not state that reliable sources need to cite sources. And WP:In-text attribution exists for a reason. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
A145: I would not consider an opinion piece in The Washington Times a reliable source, especially one which talks about George Soros; read that last paragraph of the lede of its article for why. The opinion piece from the New Statesman, besides also being opinion, appears to be conjuring up a silent minority which the author has no evidence for and says itself "That their position is misguided and morally repugnant is pretty much taken for granted". And obviously neither /r/gendercritical nor any of those forums or blogs is a reliable source. For further proof that trans-exclusionary feminists are disproportionately influential (at least in Britain) see the sources I link below. Several of them say or imply that trans-exclusionary feminists are much less influential in America, so I agree we should not imply that. LokiTheLiar (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Flyer22: So, it's also technically true that anti-trans feminism is still a minority in Britain, it's just a larger and more influential minority. (Have you noticed that most of the trans-exclusionary feminist editorials we've been finding come from British media? The Economist, the New Statesman, the Guardian, and so on. In contrast, everything from America that hasn't been written by Michelle Goldberg has been neutral or positive.) If you want proof of the divide, here is some proof. Based on all the reliable sources that say both that TERFs are disproportionately powerful in Britain and also that they're quite marginal in America (the NY Times and the Outline say this explicitly) I think that it's reasonably clear that Sally Hines' statement was based on her own experience as a British feminist and should not be taken as a worldwide perspective. LokiTheLiar (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
The question above was whether either side (not whether reliable sources) claim underdog status. I know blogs/comments/tweets are unreliable, and I've seen you link unreliable sources on talk, so I thought this would be acceptable here (not in our article, of course). / Regarding The Washington Times: I don't see consensus against them on our noticeboard. / Regarding the MacDonald piece: It's not labeled an opinion piece, and it cites evidence; the Hines piece reads more like opinion and cites no evidence. / I appreciate the comments here that the US and UK have different situations, and I'd welcome seeing more info on these nuances in our article if possible. A145GI15I95 (talk) 16:37, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Does this revert (diff) have consensus backing? The change (now reverted) was from they have a "high level of social, cultural, and economic capital" to they have been said to possess a "high level of social, cultural, and economic capital". Reason for the addition of "said" was to improve NPOV, as one source has said this, and without evidence. Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:23, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
LokiTheLiar, my point is that the WP:Reliable sources guideline is clear about what qualifies as a reliable source. It states nothing about sources needing to cite sources. To repeat, "As has been discussed times before on this site, WP:Reliable sources does not state that reliable sources need to cite sources." An opinion piece comparison is irrelevant because that is handled per WP:YESPOV and WP:In-text attribution. We can take this to Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources if we must.
You stated, "Several of them say or imply that trans-exclusionary feminists are much less influential in America, so I agree we should not imply that." No, they don't.
A145GI15I95, "said to possess" is a WP:Weasel words violation. The piece should simply be given WP:In-text attribution instead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:49, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
"No they don't"? What? I can quote two of them saying that very clearly. The NYT source states In America, however, TERFism today is a scattered community in its death throes, mourning the loss of its last spaces, like the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, which ended in 2015., and the Outline source states It’s vanishingly rare that I think any country should take advice from the shitshow that is the U.S., but with regard to feminism, at least American leftists don’t tend to Lean In to bigotry quite as much. Please at least read the sources I link before dismissing them. Also, I'm honestly not sure what we would be taking elsewhere. I don't think that you're saying my sources are unreliable, and I'm not saying your source is unreliable. Do you mean we should go there to resolve the issue of whether there's a source conflict or not? Because I think that's reasonable and in fact a good idea.LokiTheLiar (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
The source stating that "TERFism today is a scattered community in its death throes, mourning the loss of its last spaces, like the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, which ended in 2015" is not the same thing as stating they have no power. Again, The Economist states "anti-trans viewpoints are a minority position within feminism" and "while anti-transgender feminists are a minority, they have a high level of social, cultural and economic capital." So it also calls them a minority. The source stating "It's vanishingly rare that I think any country should take advice from the shitshow that is the U.S., but with regard to feminism, at least American leftists don’t tend to Lean In to bigotry quite as much" is not the same thing as stating that trans-exclusive feminists have no power. You are reaching a conclusion not stated by the sources. Regarding Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources, I simply meant that if one wants to argue that WP:Reliable sources need to cite sources, we can take the matter there for more opinions.
In any case, I'm taking this article and the Feminist views on transgender topics article off my watchlist, which I know will relieve you and certain others. There are too many contentious topics that I need to worry about, and just being involved with the Feminist views on transgender topics article and now this one...I can see that both will take too much of my time. I don't like being on Misplaced Pages debating day in and day out. I do not want to substantially contribute to either article and become very attached. I know that my draft of the Feminist views on transgender topics article would be a substantial improvement to that article, but I don't have the time nor patience to deal with POV issues that would continue to happen at that article even if my draft was implemented. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:23, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Like before, this is mostly going to be about explaining my position to other editors briefly now you've taken this article off your watchlist.
Saying those sources don't prove that TERFs have "no" power is a strawman. The claim at issue is that "they have a high level of social, cultural and economic capital" is true in the UK only, and that they are significantly weaker in the US. I think describing TERFism as a "scattered community in its death thrones" in the US does contradict, and in context is intended to contradict, the idea that they have a "high" amount of social, cultural and economic capital in the US. I'm also confused at your emphasis; while it's clear that to some extent the piece is based on the author's opinion, she does go into her reasoning (and, as you say, reliable sources don't have to cite sources). Moreover, in context the opinion being offered is that she thinks that Britain ought to take advice from the US in this instance, and then offers her reasoning being that TERFs in the US are weaker than in the UK. LokiTheLiar (talk) 23:31, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
There is no straw man. The sources do not state that those feminists have no power. WP:Synthesis understands what I mean. So should you. You have no proof of "in the UK only." As for my bolded emphasis, yes, it's about that author's opinion since that author specifically states "I think." And although I stated, "WP:Reliable sources does not state that reliable sources need to cite sources.," I also stated, "An opinion piece comparison is irrelevant because that is handled per WP:YESPOV and WP:In-text attribution." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
The addition of "said to possess" was intended as a more WP:IMPARTIAL tone. It doesn't " an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated" (definition of WP:WEASEL), it does the opposite. A145GI15I95 (talk) 17:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Undue weight tag

The article is currently tagged "This article may lend undue weight to anti-transgender feminists' opposition to the word". Does this tag have consensus support? The section in question has shrunk, and the other two sections (defending the usage, and responding to the opposition) have grown since its addition. A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree the problem has gotten better but I don't think it's really fixed yet. I think that tag and the tag about expansion of the responses section are still necessary for now. LokiTheLiar (talk) 02:28, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I trimmed the opposition section down but response section has effectively shrunk as you moved the usage to the coining section. We are making progress, but the section expansion tag on responses is definitely going to be pertinent in a long while. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 02:32, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Categories: