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Periodic table (extended) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 02 February 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Extended periodic table. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Expert tag, December 2011

Over the past few weeks, I was brushing up and expanding this article, hoping to prepare it for a GAN. There is, however, a tag dated December 2011 requesting expert attention. This tag has lingered for seven years despite substantial growth and does not clearly refer to a specific problem in the article. I am unsure how to address it (or if it should still be here), and I am doubtful a GAN will succeed if whatever underlying issues remain unnoticed. ComplexRational (talk) 00:34, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Was added here, section had one ref. Looks like section has been rebuild since. I think we can rejudge section quality today (that is, delete the tag when we think current version is OK). -DePiep (talk) 00:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

There are definitely more sources that clearly outline Pyykkö's predictions (that I don't think existed then or were perhaps not known within the WP community - the main one is dated 2011) and the rest of the article gives some implications as to why, and I am not left confused or longing for more information after reading that section. I still would like everyone's opinion before considering removal of the tag. ComplexRational (talk) 01:39, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

At the time the expert tag was added, there was another one which was removed by DePiep in this edit, saying that three sources was enough to remove the tag. This section now has two sources, one used twice. Do we think that is enough? YBG (talk) 02:33, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

To me, the two sources look adequate, as the main one (PT172) is quite complete and everything else I've found includes a reference to that original one, without providing further information on calculation or generic predictions not already explained. ComplexRational (talk) 23:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Counting sources of course is not exactly enough to remove the {{Expert needed}} tag. IMO, since the tag was added the section was rewritten (e.g., by editor Double sharp, do we need more 'expert'?). Also, the {{Expert needed}} documentation is quite clear in its opening description: 1. don't add it as a blanket, but be specific (talkpage or add the reason); 2. may be removed when unexplained; 3. do not expect a response. In this case I conclude: we have taken a look, we can remove the tag for all these reasons, unless someone wants to explicitly keep it in here. -DePiep (talk) 08:42, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Very sound reasoning. After a couple more days with no objections, we can safely remove it. YBG (talk) 17:32, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with YBG, especially on point 1 per documentation. ComplexRational (talk) 21:37, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Y done -DePiep (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Extended periodic table (detailed cells)

Per AfD. Useless WP:NOTSTATS duplicate. wumbolo ^^^ 14:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Wumbolo could you link to that AfD discussion? -DePiep (talk) 14:38, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Extended periodic table (large version). The closer recommended a merge proposal. wumbolo ^^^ 14:46, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Wumbolo This is the full closing conclusion from 2012:

The result was keep. If someone wishes to merge it with any other article, please take it up on this article's talk page.

So there is no merge "recommended"ation, as you wrote here. The AfD closing brings no argument for or against any merge(-proposal). -DePiep (talk) 14:20, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea, but you should probably mention it on Talk:Extended periodic table (detailed cells) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notrium (talk • contribs) 14:53, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support No brainer, the table should certainly be on that main article rather than a separate page. Reywas92 19:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Pyykkö's justification for putting E165 and E166 in the s-block rather than the d-block

To quote his paper: "As seen from Table 3, the dication E166 strongly prefers a 7d9s configuration to the alternatives 7d9s or 7d9s. We recall here that Rg (E111) prefers a 6d8s ground state. Due to this orbital order 7d < 9s, we therefore let E165 and E166 stay in Groups 1 and 2, as done by Fricke et al." So he is comparing the situation 7d < 9s in the 7d series with the situation 6d > 7s in the 6d series. OTOH, it seems to me at least that this makes the 7d series more analogous with the 3d, 4d, and 5d series, which have 3d < 4s, 4d < 5s, and 5d < 6s respectively as we learn in high-school chemistry. ^_^ Alas, Pyykkö does not tabulate ionisation energies of E165 and E166, which would be an interesting comparison to the Cu and Zn groups. Double sharp (talk) 16:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

This statement by Pyykkö changes the principal setup of the periodic table: 1. increasing atomic numbers, 2. rows to point to periodicity (together I call these Mendeleevian). Of course this is all right, it's only that we should not present this as just one more editorial variant periodic table (not). I am not disputing the scientific base, I want to note that this change of structure requires that we at least qualify the naming: "periodic table (by Pyykkö)". Similar, because of different structural setup: Timothy Stowe (or

I have added some material, with the help of Google Translate to understand the Russian, from Droog Andrey's "old popular-science article for high schoolers" (as he put it in the archive). As he is a subject-matter expert and has been published in the relevant field of computational chemistry (for example here), I believe this may be considered reliable as such cases are an explicit exemption on our self-published sources policy. It is interesting to see that the part of period 8 covered by the islands of stability indeed looks pretty non-relativistic: 119 and 120 look analogous to Rb and Sr, with 157–172 being good analogues of Y through Xe indeed, and 173 finally grants us our wish for the greatest alkali metal explosion! Meanwhile 121–138 and 139–156 respectively mimic the lanthanides and actinides. Double sharp (talk) 15:08, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Some quotes from the Fricke papers on why we depart from their suggested periodic table layout

So why do we put E164 in group VIII? Well, they also wanted to!

From the paper in Actinides Reviews, 1 (1971) 433–485 (my commentary in brackets):

"Even for the neutral atom, a similarity can be seen between Pd where ten d electrons and no s electrons form the outer shel1 and element Z = 164." (We might add that the state of affairs in the 7d row, where at most only one electron is promoted to the 9s orbital, and often none are, is like an extended version of the trend that we can see happening in the 4d row, if relativistic effects had not intervened for the 5d and 6d rows.) "Pennemann et al. ... agree with Fricke et al. that the metallic form might be quite stable but they compare it more with Hg whereas Fricke et al predict E164 to be a noble metal which should be in the same chemical group as Pd and Pt." (This placement naturally fixes the position of the preceding d-elements.)

"Here the trend becomes very obvious that the radii and ionization energies of alkaline and alkaline earth elements increase with Z whereas in the first part of the Periodic System they decrease. From this side E165 and E166 will be members of the groups Ia and IIa. From a more chemical point of view, they will be likely more members of the Ib and IIb groups because of the 7d shell which is more comparable to the elements Au and Hg (but also to the elements E119 and E120) as can be seen from Fig. 14. Therefore, higher oxidation states than 1 and 2 might readily occur." (It also seems to me that the placement of E165 and E166 in groups IA and IIA is a symptom of normalising relativistic effects and forgetting how things work in the normal part of the periodic system that we usually deal with, as I noted two sections ago. Not only is the 7d < 9s situation comparable to the normal 3d < 4s, 4d < 5s, and 5d < 6s situations rather than the odd 6d > 7s situation, but also one of the key points of chemistry is that there is a large energy gap between a closing p-shell and the s-shell of the next principal quantum number, so you cannot take electrons out of an earlier shell. We accept it, perhaps, for E119 and E120 because we then have no choice, but since E157–E164 and E167–E172 return to a non-relativistic-like situation, it makes sense to draw d-block analogies for E165 and E166 – especially since here we again have the group IB- and IIB-like situation with a weaker shielding provided by the d-subshell, and if the gap is bigger between 7d and 9s than it was for the other d-series, well, that follows the trend that we see incipient in the 4d series. Thus it is reassuring to see that E165 and E166 continue the trend of falling ionisation energies for the non-relativistic Cu-Ag and Zn-Cd series, which had suffered an interruption at the relativistic Au-Rg and Hg-Cn.)

Note that their table 10 of predicted properties gives as the most analogous group for E157–E164 the expected IIIB through VIII, and for E167–E172 the expected IIIA through 0; we follow these, only squeezing E165 and E166 instead into the gap of IB and IIB instead of IA and IIA.

From the 1975 paper:

Again, the same table with the group assignments is given.

"In the periods before the 8th period, normally all d and p elements are influenced in their chemical behavior more or less by the outer s electrons. This is no longer true for the d transition elements 155 to 164, where the 8s and 8p_1/2 eleetrons are bound so strongly that they do not participate in the chemical bonding. Fig. 22 shows the outer electronic wave functions of element 164 with the deeply buried 8s and 8p_1/2 electrons. This electronic structure is quite similar to that of the d elements of the lower periods, where the outer s electrons are removed." (Well, in many chemical environments the configuration of such a d-element is indeed ds! And let's not forget what I said earlier about this continuing the trend towards disfavouring s-occupancy even in the gaseous atom that we already see in the 4d series.) One might therefore argue that, as a first guess, the aqueous and ionic behavior of an E ion of the lower d elements is comparable to an E ion of elements 155 to 164 after making allowance for the different ionic sizes and charge. But because the 9s and 9p_1/2 states are easily available in 164 for hybridization, the chemical behavior is expected not to be too different from that of the other d elements." (Therefore we see that we must mentally think of 9s rather than 8s as the covering s-shell here. And indeed we sometimes see promotions to there in the ground state: compare the 4d and 7d series! I here use the predictions in the table at the bottom of this article:)

Eccola! And if you will see in some reputable places slightly different predictions with regard to which are 9s and 9s, well, that just goes to show that 7d and 9s are nearly degenerate, doesn't it? Surely it is nice to see such nearly exact homology, though! ^_^)

(This consideration is why I disagree with Fricke's argument for his placement of E165 and E166, which goes as follows:)

"From the normal continuation of the periodic table one would expect that after the eompletion of a d shell (at element 164) two elements in the IB and IIB chemical groups should appear. In a very formal way this is true, because with the filling of the 9s electrons in elements 165 and 166 there are outer s electrons chemically available. On the other hand, these outer s electrons should be the ones which began with the onset of the period. The 8s electrons are already very strongly bound so that the two 9s electrons which are filled in have to be assumed to define the beginning of a new period." (But as we can see, already by the time we get out of the quagmire of superactinides, it is 7d and 9s which are running the show, as if 7d was a transition series in between 9s and the hybrid 9p_1/2+8p_3/2 that are nearly degenerate and act like the 3p shell. So there is a slow transition between thinking of 8s as the outer s-shell and replacing it with 9s. Now, their comparisons of ionisation energies and atomic radii have some force. So let's draw a table:)

(Metallic radii are in picometres for the stable elements from Atomic radii of the elements (data page), and from Fricke for Rg, Cn, and the undiscovered ones. Figures for francium and radium are shameless WP:OR based on the covalent radius supplemented by graphomancy from Fricke's Fig. 10 in this paper, suggesting Fr is around the average of those of Rb and Cs, and Ra is a bit larger than Ba, but they are not the point anyway *handwaves*.) Double sharp (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Can Double_sharp translate this obsolete IB/IIB/IA/IIA trash into the modern group and block notation? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:55, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

@Incnis Mrsi: Certainly not with that attitude – and especially not when (1) the A and B are being used in the (old) source, and (2) the chemical meaning of the old notation is precisely what is relevant when classifying E165 and E166. Double sharp (talk) 03:20, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

(Now let's show ionisation energies, because if you've read till here you probably want me to:)

(Data from molar ionisation energies of the elements and this page. Neither trend looks all that great, as both demand some sort of about-face; but if we consider Au–E120 part of the "relativistic effects zone" that should be exceptional, against the trend of the other elements, it seems to me that putting E165 and E166 in groups 1 and 12 respectively makes more sense as then the trend goes back to normal once we go into the "pretending to be out of the relativistic effects zone" that includes E157–E173. If we can stomach E119 and E120 as A-group elements with B-group tendencies, then surely we can also stomach E165 and E166 as B-group elements with A-group tendencies.) Double sharp (talk) 16:32, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

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