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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Andries (talk | contribs) at 17:33, 11 December 2006 (→Brahma Kumaris). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

VWN en WCN

Beste allemaal Al enige tijd is er een Nederlandstalig chapter in oprichting, te vinden op http://nl.wikimedia.org . Dit wordt de Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland (VWN). Je kunt je interesse om lid te worden van deze vereniging hier aangeven.

Deze vereniging gaat eind augustus/begin september een Wikimedia Conferentie in Nederland (WCN) houden, volgend op Wikimania in Boston, gedeeltelijk erop inspelend middels een aantal discussiegroepen. Om iets dergelijks te organiseren is imput erg gewenst. Dus als je wilt meehelpen, of als je interesse hebt om bij een dergelijk evenement aanwezig te zijn, geef dat dan aan op nl.wikimedia. Ik hoop daar snel je imput tegemoet te zien! Met vriendelijke groet, Effeietsanders 25 feb 2006 12:27 (CET)

Thanks

Thanks For Writing the cults in fiction section. I like when people take my ideas seriously. Keep up the good work User:Zerath13

Sathya Sai Baba

I've blocked both you and SSS108 for your persistant edit warring on Sathya Sai Baba. You clearly made 4 reverts in less than 24 hours. — Apr. 22, '06 <freakofnur_xture|talk>

Rebuttals regarding Sathya Sai Baba in wikipedia:lead section

Alternative for User:SSS108/Introductory_Paragraph_Sandbox#Anti-Hindu

The accusations have led to a a variety of responses from followers. SSB himself suggested in a discourse in the year 2000 that people had been bribed to tell lies about him. Some followers and proponents refused to comments, while other followers stated that they consider the accusations lies. Others consider the accusations of fraud in materializations and sexual abuse by Sathya Sai Baba to be untrue and refer instead to the miracles that they say they have experienced. Again others assert that the allegations about acts by Sathya Sai Baba that can be interpreted as sexually intended are probably true, but that he does them to awaken their kundalini energy or to remove previous bad sexual karma. According to a cover article in the India Today magazine in 2000, the coterie that surrounds Baba dismisses these allegations by denouncing them as "anti-Hindu attacks made by foreigners

References

1. discourse by SSB on 25 December 2000 [http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume33/sss33-23.pdf available online pdf file
2. Manu Rao, B.S. Sai Baba lashes out at detractrors. Times of India 26 December 2000 available online
   "BANGALORE: Sri Sathya Sai Baba on Monday lashed out at his detractors in a rare display of anger while delivering a discourse on the occasion of Christmas at Brindavana, Whitefield ashram here.
   In an obvious reference to some of what has been written against him in the recent days, Baba said that many have been bought and they speak against him for the money they have received to do so."
3. Danmarks Radio aired on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 8:05 pm "Seduced by Sai Baba" transcript available online
   "245 00:46:43:02 00:46:46 22 We also asked the travel leader, Lidvin Virkesdal, to comment on the accusations,
   246 00:46:47:00 00:46:51:19 but neither did he wish to contribute to our broadcast on this matter.
   
4. Brown, Mick Divine downfall 28 Oct. 2000 available online
   "When the Telegraph Magazine contacted K Chakravarthi, secretary of the Puttaparthi ashram, he said, 'We have no time for these matters. I have nothing to say' and terminated the call."
   "Sai Baba's principal English translator, Anil Kumar, was more forthcoming. Every great religious teacher, he said, had faced criticism in their lifetime. Such allegations had been levelled at Sai Baba since childhood, 'but with every criticism he becomes more and more triumphant'. Kumar said he considered the controversy 'all part of divine plan. It's a paddy field with husks around the rice. Eventually all the unwanted parts will go to leave the true substance inside.'
5. Goldberg, Michelle, Untouchable? in in salon.com (25 July 2001)
6. Danmarks Radio aired on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 8:05 pm "Seduced by Sai Baba" transcript available online
   "247 We were instead referred to Peter Pruzan, a professor at Copenhagen’s Business High School.
   248 00:46:56:06 00:47:00:02 He has been a faithful Sai Baba follower for many years.
   249 00:47:00:05 00:47:08:04 What is truth? That these people perhaps have had some experiences which they have experienced in their brains, in their minds.
   250 00:47:08:07 00:47:13:12 (JOUNALIST) They tell of direct, physical experiences as regards the pedophile interference.
   251 00:47:13:15 00:47:18:17 What is the truth? I am not saying that these people are lying -
   252 00:47:18:20 00:47:22:15 - that they are not telling what they think they have experienced.
   253 00:47:22:18 00:47:26:14 In Jerusalem there are hundreds of people
   254 00:47:26:17 00:47:31:13 - who are in psychiatric hospitals,
   255 00:47:31:16 00:47:38: 21 who are convinced that they have experienced Jesus. People can experience many things. It is not my errand here to talk to you about this
   256 00:47:38:24 00:47:44:02 You ask me for my reaction to what I have seen and heard, and I have given it.
   257 00:47:44:05 00:47:48:14 Do you mean that all that they say is completely untrue?
   258 00 47:48:17 00:47:51:08 If you ask me what I mean
   259 00:47:51:11 00:47:57:04 I would say that Sai Baba, his organisation and his teaching stand for love.
   260 00:47:57:07 00:48:04:17 I mean it stands for the message that we should become better people.
   261 00:48:04:20 00:48:10:21 It is an organisation that bases itself on the service of society. It shows us the way we should experience this.
   262 00:48:10:24 00:48:15:18 - But I asked you if Sai Baba is a pedophile?
   - No
   263 :48:16:21 00:48:22:12 We also showed Professor Pruzan the shots showing Sai Baba’s conjuring tricks.
   264 00:48:22:15 00:48:30:12 If you ask me whether what Sai Baba does is swindle, my answer is definitely not.
   265 00:48:30:15 00:48:37:05 I can answer like that because I have experienced it personally.
   266 00:48:37:08 00:48:44:06 Sai Baba does things, both on the plane of materialisations -
   267 00:48:44:09 00:48:50:11 and on other planes – such as with respect to health and healing.
   268 00:48:50:14 00:48:56:14 - that for me is completely clear evidence of certain powers -
   269 00:48:56:17 00:49:01:00 - that are beyond what a conjurer has.
   270 00:49:01:03 00:49:07:05 Experience that I have had have been both in India in proximity to Sai Baba -
   271 00:49:07:08 00:49:10:23 - but have truly also been in my home in Gentofte.
   272 00:49:11:01 00:49:14:24 They are of such a nature and of such power -
   273 00:49:15:02 00:49:19:16 that I am not for a moment in doubt of -
   274 00:49:19:19 00:49:24:19 The authenticity of these wholly extraordinary powers.
7. Goldberg, Michelle, Untouchable? in salon.com (25 July 2001)
   "In an online essay called "Sai Baba and Sex: A Clear View," an American devotee named Ram Das Awle says, "First of all, I believe that Sathya Sai Baba is an Avatar, a full incarnation of God ... AND, from what I've read and heard, I'm inclined to think some of the allegations about Baba are probably true: It appears likely to me that He has occasionally had sexually intimate interactions with devotees." After several rambling paragraphs, the essay concludes that Sai Baba touches men to awaken their "kundalini" energy or to remove previous bad sexual karma, and that "any sexual contact Baba has had with devotees -- of whatever kind -- has actually been only a potent blessing, given to awaken the spiritual power within those souls. Who can call that 'wrong'? Surely to call such contact 'molestation' is perversity itself." "
8. India Today front page article December 04, 2000 "A God Accused" available online

Sathya Sai Baba (infobox)

Why did you remove the information that SSB was an actor in the past? 22.11.06 21:15 (UTC+1) Kkrystian

F. Derks and Jan van der Lans about leaving cults

Unoffical English translation from Dutch "An unequivocal post-cult-syndrome does not exist, but is a fiction that is fed by a one-sided medical-psychatrist portrayal of man in which former members and members of new religious movements are seen as victims of brainwashing that has been reverted casu quo has to to be reverted. Psychological and social problems upon resignation are not rare, but their character and intensity are greatly dependent on a) the previous history and traits of the person, and b) on the motives for and way of resignation."
Offical literal Dutch statement "Een eenduidig post-cult-syndroom bestaat niet, maar is een fictie die gevoed wordt vanuit een eenzijdig medisch-psychiatrisch mensbeeld waarin ex-leden en leden van nieuwe religieuze bewegingen beschouwd worden als slachtoffers van hersenspoeling, die ongedaan is c.q. moet worden gemaakt. Psycho-social problematiek bij uittreding komt niet zelden voor, maar de aard en intensiteit ervan is in grote mate afhankelijk van a)de voorgeschiedenis en predisposities van de persoon en b) de motieven voor en wijze van uittreding."

from F. Derks, Lans, J. van der "Post-cult syndrome Fact or Fiction? ", paper presented at conference of Psychologists of Religion, Catholic University Nijmegen, 1981, also appeared in Dutch language as Post-cult-syndroom; feit of fictie?, published in the magazine Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland/Religious movements in the Netherlands nr. 6 pages 58-75 published by the Free University of Amsterdam (1983) also quoted in Dr. Reender Kranenborg (1992) 'Sektenbestrijding in Nederland in De Tegenbeweging in Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland, ISBN 9053831045

Re

No problem. It equally gets me when (extremely) controversial pieces of information often go uncited. I happen to be from the former Armenian SSR and so have all volumes of the Soviet Encyclopedia which prove to be useful references when it comes to finding information about specific divisions (namely Armenians however). The figure on the German side, especially the aircraft, seems far too high so I can take a look in the article on the battle of Berlin in my volumes and see if they even correspond to whoever came up with those numbers.--MarshallBagramyan 19:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Shirdi Sai Baba (reliable sources)

http://www.saibaba.org must be trusted because it is one of the most reliable sources about Shirdi Sai Baba you can find. The statement "Why fear when I am here" used to be here: http://chavadi.saibaba.org:8080/index.htm. It was in the Macromedia Flash animation. I don't know where the admins of http://saibaba.org have put it now. 22:07 9 Dec. 2006 (UTC+1) Kkrystian

Andries, but do you know any more reliable sources about Shirdi Sai Baba? If so than use info from them for the article about Shirdi SB. If not, than we have to trust http://www.saibaba.org. 11:31 10 Dec. 2006 (UTC+1) Kkrystian

Again, the book by Antonio Rigopoulos seems reasonably reliable. The website http://www.saibaba.org may be fine to describe beliefs and practices but it is not suitable for a serious biography. If there are no good sources for an extensive biography then there will not be an extensive biography in Misplaced Pages. Andries 10:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

On what grounds are you saying and do you think that http://www.saibaba.org is not a reliable source? 11:53 10 Dec. 2006 (UTC+1) Kkrystian

Why do you think the book by Hemadpant is good for supplying sources? 12:41 10 Dec. 2006 (UTC+1) Kkrystian

Because it is the Bible for the followers of Sai Baba and according to the book, the book was authorized by Sai Baba. Andries 11:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Does that mean that I can write about all his miracles in the Misplaced Pages and write that they are facts? 15:15 10 Dec. 2006 (UTC+1) Kkrystian

I meant to say that the book by Hemadant is probably fine to desribe beliefs and practices. And may be very little from the book could be included as biographical information. Andries 14:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Andries, I agree with Kkrystian that you may be off the mark here. Primary Sai Baba sources are limited in the west and in English. saibaba.org provides a resonable source for Sai Baba sayings. Anyone who has visited Shirdi has seen these sayings plastered over all sorts of souvenirs, banners, boodks, etc. They are very much attributed to Sai, and so far as I know, no one disputes that attribution. There is no particular controversy that Sai didn't say these things, at least none that I am aware of, and I think based on my 20+years interest I would have run across this sort of controversy if it existed.

I don't know that any source about Sai provides 'objective' or 'verifiable' information in the Wwstern academic sense. But it would be foolishness to begin to cherrypick from a book (like Hemadpant) as a 'good source', and to disallow cherrypicking from website (like saibaba.org). There is certainly no evidence to suggest that saibaba.org is any way a conterversial or deviant site run by some sort of wingnut fringe group. It seems to be very mainstream in its approach.

As the WP states: Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. This as opposed to straight-up opinion or original, nonpublished research. You can look these quotes up. You can find then decide whether or not to trust the reference source. So I think they pass this test.--Nemonoman 15:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Stop Violating ArbCom Ruling

This is your second warning. I warned you once before about including the link on Robert Priddy's wikipage. You have also been warned about this by admin . SSS108 18:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I continue to disagree for reasons that I have stated many times. Andries 18:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This this your third warning. Stop violating the ArbCom Ruling: SSS108 18:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This this your fourth warning. Stop violating the ArbCom Ruling: SSS108 18:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You know that I do not think that I violate the arbcom ruling. Andries 18:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Admin thinks it does SSS108 18:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbcom

Arbcom accepted your case. You need to wait for their verdict. What clarification is required? KazakhPol 20:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand, but if you re-add the dispute I will not remove it. KazakhPol 21:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Brahma Kumaris

Please discuss your proposed changes in the talk page before making changes. This is a policy which editors have agreed before you came. Thank you. Best, avyakt7 00:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not see the need to discuss well-sourced new additions unless they constitute a substantial change. I think that your agreement contradicts generally accepted Misplaced Pages practices. Andries 17:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)