Misplaced Pages

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• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Overly-long title shortened

Original title: "Repeated Warnings on My Talk Page From Other Editors - For Reasons Which Seem Either Ambiguous or Petty/Innocuous (not fully explained) Please Block ME FROM EDITING or Let Them Know to be Civil and Polite"

I am getting scolded and reprimanded on my talk page, I've got two warnings now. I do not clearly see why, specifically what rules are to be followed (that I'm not following), I'm not being given any opportunity to make amends, or apologize, and I'm feeling like it's harassment. To be clear, these problems are coming from several other editors, making me doubt that it's them, I have to admit, it is probably me, but they won't take the time nor do they have the wherewithal to make it clear why it's wrong, what it is, how to correct it. From my perspective I do not as yet clearly see how I'm out of line. Please review my situation, either BLOCK ME ENTIRELY from Misplaced Pages - since I'm such a horrible editor and have used up so many other editors' precious time and patience, or please let the other editors know that I'm trying my best and to desist, I'm losing my composure. When I go to the Teahouse, one of the editors complains continually, and tells me my entries are too long, and I suppose they're too hard to read perhaps? I don't know. The editor advised me to stay away from the Teahouse and not spend time there. This editor keeps writing about losing his patience with me. Another editor writes in ambiguous aphorisms that I'm unable to clearly understand, and I'm really not that experienced at this (Misplaced Pages). I've been trying to clear some things through the talk pages, and the feedback is just getting derailed and hijacked by other editors, who fail to directly respond to my entreaties. Then, they are complaining that I'm spending all my editing time in the talk pages and not on an article - when the discussion on the talk pages have stultified, without conclusion. So instead of continuously warning me, please do this. Cut me off completely from Misplaced Pages. Or, please keep these people from treating me so coldly, if that's in any way possible. If you think the answer is to set certain pages off limits to me, I'm not comfortable with that, I'd rather be an equal editor (from my IP address) I don't feel comfortable "staying away" from pages, just because other editors are too tired to directly respond to me or read my entreaties and stay on track with me. That's not a good reason for me to "stay away" from a page's talk section. If I were personally attacking or editing out other people's topics or obviously vandalizing pages, then, that would make sense, but this is not what is going on at all. If possible would a disinterested party get into contact with me - and if it means more scolding then PLEASE just BLOCK my IP and have done with it. (I am not comfortable mentioning names yet, maybe this is just me over reacting, I did read the header that says I need to inform the other editors and provide links; if you aren't blocking me after reading this & if you think I need to get the links and inform the other editors, then let me know, I see no reason that I shouldn't, but I'm not experienced at Misplaced Pages and I don't even know if this is the right place for this message - AGAIN-I HAVE BEEN WARNED NOT TO USE THE TEAHOUSE ANYMORE). Thanks for reading this, if you've gotten this far. I hope you don't freeze out my IP, but if you do, then please continue to make Misplaced Pages a great website and keep up the good work. No hard feelings. בס״ד 172.250.237.36 (talk) 22:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Oy vey, בס״ד. You flood the article talk pages with multiple, lengthy comments —like the above, for example, with it's excessive one-paragraph wall of text and excessive section header— without acquainting yourself with the basics, still. Yes, there is a limit to our collective patience. And still, you have not been sanctioned, which is a testament to the project's welcoming nature. El_C 23:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

בס״ד is not their name, it's part of their signature. _signed, Rosguill 23:38, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm aware. And yet it helps me remember, because... words. El_C 23:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I thought that was a double entendre joke, "Oy vey, with the help of Heaven", and I laughed. Levivich  03:01, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

It can be two things! El_C 11:28, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Why are you having fun at someone else's expense, El C and Levivich? Bus stop (talk) 14:07, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm friendly with בס״ד. They have not shown they take offense to the nickname so far throughout multiple encounters. It's not making fun of them, it's lightening up an unfortunate situation. El_C 14:11, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Great opportunity to use the {{FBDB}} template, El C! EEng 05:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• If 172.250.237.36 wants to stop editing Misplaced Pages, then 172.250.237.36 should just stop editing Misplaced Pages. If 172.250.237.36, for reasons many of us will understand, can't stop themself from coming here, then a short block might be helpful in breaking the habit. Otherwise I see no need for administrative action. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Blocked for 72 hours for persistently wasting the time and patience of constructive editors, which is Misplaced Pages's most precious resource. I know I'm like a broken record with the "precious resource" thing. Bishonen | tålk 11:38, 24 July 2020 (UTC).

  A search of the phrase "most precious resource" shows that either (a) this is Misplaced Pages's most-plagiarized phrase or (b) you've got a lot of sockpuppets. EEng 05:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  • In my opinion 172.250.237.36 was treated shabbily by very experienced editors long before they were blocked. Bus stop (talk) 21:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
    • It's a pity then that you weren't there weeks ago to help them along, and that so many others wasted so much of their time--and getting it all wrong, apparently. Drmies (talk) 01:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
      • Yes, the clubbiness of "regulars" leave little room for newcomers to fit in. Bus stop (talk) 04:06, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
        • @Bus stop: I looked at the IP talk page and saw a lot of FORUM stuff, but also saw they were having a tough time navigating the waters. Do you have any diffs where they were treated shabbily? I would like to assist this IP if it is worth it, although they do have a TLDR habit. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 06:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
          • Bison X—my hope is that experienced editors will stop trying to frustrate the efforts of inexperienced editors. Misplaced Pages is not about winning. Bus stop (talk) 20:14, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
            • No, Misplaced Pages is about building an encyclopedia. How did the IP help to do that? Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
              • You are asking: how did they help to build the encyclopedia? One of many examples: User talk:Bus stop#Attempted Arrest Errors - Talk Item Updated. Constructive suggestions help to build the encyclopedia. In my opinion experienced editors lend a helping hand to inexperienced editors. They do so by taking the inexperienced editor's suggestions seriously and demonstrating the guidelines that apply to edits that are being contemplated. Bus stop (talk) 02:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• I sympathize with new users struggling to find their bearings, but aggressively asserting oneself in a variety of contentious articles and flooding talk pages with spammy forum-y or bludgeon-y or tldr posts is disrutpive, it wastes editors' time and inhibits constructive communication on the talk page. It's all the worse if you're a new user who doesn't know what they're doing. This IP may not have been treated the best but looking at their talk page many editors spent a significant amount of time trying to coach them and help set them on the right path. Really the effort people have been putting into this user is a bit absurd when there's no indication that any of it is getting through to them. Good block. ~Swarm~ 05:57, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

95.145.94.68

An IP alerted me to another possible IP Vandal and potential disrespectful/rude behaviour towards the administrators (who for the record has not recieved four warnings) at my talk page:

"Hello Good sir PTO. Here’s the issue I’m talking about. User Special:Contributions/95.145.94.68 is continuously vandalises the pages of coronation street characters list and the Emmerdale characters list. Can somebody please ban him? He’s also swearing at June Gloom and bullying him and other administrators if they’ve delete his vandalism, using threatening behaviour, can you get somebody to take care of him please? Check out what he’s doing 2A02:C7F:5063:FA00:10CF:E997:1DA:DBDF(talk) 21:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)"

Thanks, P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 22:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC).

Note that this IP was reported to WP:AIV here , but due to a backlog, it was removed by a bot for being stale. As one of the editors who has been targeted by them, some action would be most welcome. - JuneGloom07 Talk 17:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

This editor has now switched to two other IPs , and this one just tried impersonating myself and another editor & . - JuneGloom07 Talk 15:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

User Visioncurve / Anthony J. Tata entry

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I can find no way to contact Visioncurve. I went to his page and there is no way to contact him.

In discussing Tata's school board service, the article used "democratic majority" instead of "Democratic majority." The majority was from the Democratic Party, not those holding democratic beliefs. I edited pitalized Democratic.

The school board dismissed him because of concerns over his leadership style. The article put quotation marks around "leadership style," a common way of negating a term used by an adversary. This is inappropriate and prejudicial for a Misplaced Pages article.

User Visioncurve undid my edit, saying it "was not constructive," and re-edited democratic with a small "d" and replaced the quotation marks.

This user Visioncurve should be investigated to determine that he is really who he says he is, and not a Russian troll sewing dissent in the U.S., and he should be removed from his position at Misplaced Pages for his prejudicial conduct, and sent back to from wherever his immigrant ancestors came (figuratively speaking). This kind of behavior taints the respectability of Misplaced Pages.

John King, age 77, Denver, Colorado USA, a Savage from Virginia, the oldest immigrant family in America, and descendant of Wahunsenacawh, Mamanatowik of the Powhatan Nation (Chief Powhatan), and descendant of Rollo, first Duke of Normandy, who established the Rule of Law in the West. I love my country and the Rule of Law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.208.30.69 (talk)

IP editor, if you wish to contact Visioncurve, leave a message on his talk page and start a new section with one of the buttons at the top of the page. Please assume good faith of other editors until there is sufficient evidence otherwise. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Mr King, first of all, let me put your mind at ease and assure you that my revert has nothing to do with the Russians (I feel sad that this phrase passed its peak of popularity...). The sole intention of my revert was to remove the question: (who was his second wife?) you had posted at the bottom of the "Personal life" section of the article, which was indeed not constructive (next time, please use article's talk page if you have any questions regarding an article). As for that "Democratic majority" phrase, to tell the truth, I still don't quite understand how my revert actually had an impact on that as well, as I clearly remember that I saw only the above-mentioned edit in the "Personal life" section. I think that should be put down to the fact that there was almost no time between your first and second edit, and unfortunately, my revert accidentally nullified them both. Keep well and stay safe! Thanks! Visioncurve 10:36, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

sent back to from wherever his immigrant ancestors came

I think this rather racist comment from the IP has been overlooked in the above rant. That alone deserves a WP:BOOMERANG. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:31, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

IP: this isn't a serious complaint, it's a rant, larded with a weird xenophobic insult and concluding with a very odd claim of...what? patriotism? Who gives a damn who the hell you descended from? No one will claim to be descended from the garçon de pis, and yet... Anyway, I don't know why you weren't able to edit User talk:Visioncurve. Try clicking "edit". Then, all this Russian troll stuff, just drop it. It looks silly. Anyway, you were right about the D and wrong about the quotation marks--quotation marks are also used to, ahem, indicate that something is a quotation. Drmies (talk) 01:14, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Drmies:, @HandThatFeeds:, guys, please don't bother, just leave him alone. He is 77 years old, and that should tell you the whole story... --Visioncurve 10:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

And what is the purpose of that bigoted remark? A perwson's age is no indication of their intelligence, and a stupid remark could just as easily be made by a 27-year-old as a 77-year-old. This agism is no more acceptable than the apparent racism in the original comment. RolandR (talk) 12:21, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Descendent of Rollo, First Duke of Normandy. Since that was over 1,000 years ago, 40 generations ago, statistically 1/4 of the planet is a descendent of Rollo. Canterbury Tail talk 12:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Impersonation of an admin to close an AfD

User:Fish end karete closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Simply Nailogical after only one vote! and after only 5 days. Clicking on their user name redirects to User: Fish and karate who is an admin. This is clearly a deliberate impersonation of an admin in order to protect a page where the user has some interest in preserving. The account claims to be a doppleganger account of the genuine admin but there is no evidence on the admin user page or talk page of any such account. The knowledge of AfD processes, use of doppleganger accounts etc suggests a sock. All edits from this account have been today.  Velella    09:14, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

It would have been easy to rollback these changes if MusikBot II's FixPP task hadn't been abused to prevent rollback. I have disabled the task in Special:Diff/969944700 and informed MusikAnimal about the issue now. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Ach, so! --Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

All the blocking, deleting, reverting and protecting looks done now. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alejandro Developers is clearly the focus of this sock drawer's attention. Cabayi (talk) 09:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

User:ToBeFree, thank you. I noticed this the other day, how this ahole exploited that little loophole. Drmies (talk) 00:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

And they're back. Misplaced Pages: Articles for deletion/Code page 875 Hog Farm _Bacon 11:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Well, under a different name at least. Must be a sock or two left in the drawer. Might be worth having a checkuser determine if it's all the same IP and if it can be account creation blocked without collateral damage. Hog Farm _Bacon 11:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It is Kingshowman, and also the new one today has already been dealt with very efficiently. --T*U (talk) 11:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans

"There seems little doubt that Snooganssnoogans has been stalked by multiple people in the past. There is also little doubt that Snooganssnoogans is being too quick to assume as much. . . .: The issue that brought us here is resolved and discussed on the talk page. All editors are reminded that stalking other editors' edits is unacceptable, and Snooganssnoogans is cautioned to be careful with accusations of stalking."

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Snooganssnoogans (talk · contribs) has accused two editors of stalking their edits without proof and made personal attacks.

• I reverted his numerous changes to January 2019 Lincoln Memorial confrontation made by Snooganssnoogans and had yet to be able to chime in at the talkpage when he showed up both on that article talk and at my userpage with: "Do not stalk me and indiscriminately revert me, as you did on January 2019 Lincoln Memorial confrontation (a page you've never edited before). You restored a bunch of completely indefensible content, including recently added citations to deprecated sources (such as RT) and a crap op-ed in the lead that accuses progressives of being anti-Catholicism. Your behavior on that page is a disservice to the Misplaced Pages project." Telling me my "behavior on that page is a disservice to the Misplaced Pages project" is ridiculous. I reviewed his changes, reverted myself and then examined each of his changes on the article talkpage, where he has yet to even bother to chime in since. I even agreed with some of his changes. He doesn't own pages, sorry.
• Here he accuses another editor of stalking them . As he is on a 1RR restriction he alerts others about a "stalker revert", then refers to the same editor as engaging in "creepy harassment".

I am tired of these kind of bad faith accusations. I initially did not agree with Snooganssanoogans changes, reverted them but then restored and analyzed them. I don't need to be accused of stalking and have my edits accused of being a "disservice to the Misplaced Pages project". That's bullshit and I am calling Snoogansnoogans on it.--MONGO (talk) 23:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence of stalking (based on looking at the linked page and its talk page), nor do I see indiscriminate reversion (explanations were given in the edit summaries. Obviously, I'm not commenting where I stand content-wise). I agree that accusations of stalking should not be used lightly. Snooganssnoogans, if you have diffs that show that MONGO is stalking you, please provide them. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:30, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Shortly after I made a series of edits to the page, you indiscriminately reverted all of my edits (which included restoring deprecated sources and a ludicrous statement in the lead which accused progressives of being anti-Catholicism). You had never edited the page before nor commented on the talk page. The combination of no verifiable history on the page coupled with the ludicrous nature of the revert led me to accuse you of stalking me to the page. Since you say that you watchlisted the article and given that others are vouching for you, you have my sincere apologies for the false accusation. As for Malerooster, that editor is 100% stalking me, as shown by the diffs here (which includes editing on very obscure pages). The behavior of Malerooster, coupled with numerous editors in the past who were 100% confirmed to hound me and warned by administrators for doing so (incl. Winkelvi, SashiRolls and James J. Lambden), sheds light on why I may have been too eager to accuse you of stalking. It is a reason, not an excuse. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

You lost me at "ludicrous nature of the revert". This is Misplaced Pages and sorry but your edits are not all gold and unworthy being "edited mercilessly" Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is free content and once you hit publish changes, they do not belong to you nor to me.--MONGO (talk) 00:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• I did not realize this was a common thing. It recently happened with me when I reverted them at Tyson Foods. PackMecEng (talk) 00:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• You did stalk me to that page. Two minutes after responding to me on the admin noticeboard, you followed me to the page (which you had never edited before), only to revert me in full and make sure that the lead of the article no longer summarized the body of the article. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:44, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Like Mongo that page was on my watchlist for a long time and never got around to editing it. In my past life I used to be in the food packaging industry, that is the Pack in my username. The timing is because that is when I got back to my computer and saw my watchlist. PackMecEng (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Snooganssnoogans, I think you should stop posting the 'please stop stalking and reverting me indiscriminately' accusation in general. There are many ways an editor you're familiar with from having opposing views might wind up editing the same page you do. Even following your edits doesn't necessarily make them stalkers. There are a couple of people whose edits I occasionally follow out of curiosity and it has occurred that I've changed or reverted their edits. That doesn't make me a stalker nor have any of the victims ever accused me of being one. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I guess one relevant distinction is whether you're being reverted in order to needle, provoke, intimidate, skunk you, or whether you're being reverted because the reverter believes it is the better version for an encyclopedia. Ultimately, only the reverters can answer this, but I don't sense any creepy stalking with MONGO or PackMecEng's edit(s). ---Sluzzelin talk 01:01, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

The beauty of editing on American politics-related pages is that every single substantive addition of content can be reverted with the justification "WP:NPOV". In the past when I've been 100% confirmed to have been stalked, admins only acted when the stalkers went to non-politics-related pages to continue the harassment (e.g. Winkelvi, SashiRolls). Was it not stalking before that point just because the editors could always plausibly argue "NPOV" every time that they reverted me in US politics-editing? This is not a defense of baseless accusations of stalking –I'm just pointing out that in practice, someone intent on stalking someone else in American politics-related editing could do so without ever falling afoul of the standard you set. If I were intent on nullifying someone else's editing in a controversial sphere of Misplaced Pages, I could follow them around (which you say is alright), act civilly and cite Wiki guidelines in all my reverts, and tie the other editor up on the talk page. It would serve the goal of nullifying the other editor's contributions, wasting their time and annoying them, but it would not cross any red line in terms of stalking (as you would define it). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:44, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I see what you mean, yet I definitely don't equate MONGO and PackMecEng's behaviour with Winkelvi and SashiRoll's, not by a long shot. I don't think you're being followed around like that by MONGO and PackMecEng. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:56, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• MONGO, it sure looks like WP:OWN to me. The same with PackMecEng so he doubled down - with two different articles. _Talk 📧 01:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  No, it's not about WP:OWN. It's about the same groups of editors, allocated on two sides, battling each other over every conceivable instance where they stand opposed on whatever political spectrum you choose. It's tedious. It's tiring. It's unproductive. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• This bad faith reaction on Snoogan's part is a reoccurring problem. In addition to MONGO and PackMecEng, GlassBones], Malerooster], Calidum] and myself] have been accused of "stalking" in the last few months. Additional editors have been accused of stalking in the recent past; Toa Nidhiki05], Dy3o2], 84percent], KidAd]. The common theme is Snoogan's makes a lot of edits. Many of those edits are POINTy and not in frequently low quality. Not long ago Snoogan's was the subject of an ANI for edit warring when others objected to such edits ]. Part of that sanction included a civility warning from Awilley. Note that the "additional editors" were accused prior to that Nov 2019 ANI. Ultimately Snoogan's feels they are righting great wrongs by patrolling many pages and preventing the POV edits from making it to articles]. All the while they are ignoring their own similar edits. Other editors take a look at something Snoogans has done, see the problematic nature of the edits and revert. That fails to meet WP:HOUND. However, accusing others of hounding rather than reflecting on the reoccurring problems with Snoogan's own edits is also a problem. Being a prolific editor isn't a benefit to Misplaced Pages if many of those edits result in lower quality or less neutral/impartial articles. If Snoogan's can recognize the problem with their own edits then perhaps they shouldn't be making those edits. Springee (talk) 02:28, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Only commenting because my name was invoked, and I'll try to keep it short. Springee's assessment above is (partly) correct. Snooganssoogans is a very prolific editor and mainly edits within the American politics (post-1932) subject area. I believe Snoogans is a fundamentally productive contributor, who is willing to "get down in the weeds" and edit the pages of conspiracy theorists, fringe thinkers, far-right provocateurs, and other abhorrent individuals. After spending significant time in that corner of American politics, it's only natural that one believes others may be targeting them. Snoogans has been the target of harrassement and hounding, off- and on-site. (See this google search) for a taste. Taking a glance at the interaction tool between Snooganssoogans and MONGO, it becomes clear that the two interacted on talk pages – discussing controversial subjects – prior to the alleged stalking. It is not difficult to notice a user pop up on talk pages or page histories a few too many times and think "is this more than a coincidence?" KidAd (💬💬) 02:34, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Odd because his name does pop up on many pages on my watchlist yet I rarely if ever bother to edit those pages or engage them in discussion. Over the past couple years I can think of 2 times we exchanged a conversation about content directly one on one. I go to those pages and make an edit and both times am attacked....accused of stalking him, told my edits are ludicrous, am told I am "edit warring" after I make ONE revert of his edit....--MONGO (talk) 02:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

How is it that I, mostly an observer of articles on current American politics, am less astonished on this particular clash. I don't buy it. Please be more sincere, then we might actually achieve a step forward in this boring battle. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:06, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to roll out my Wiki-resume and edit history to show this editor and I have only had a tiny few exchanges but when they do always start off with him assuming the worst of me. Even the pages we may comment on we are not "talking" with each other. I just checked the talkpage for the Donald Trump article and I don't see us conversing directly...I could be mistaken of course. I go and revert him twice and am attacked...apparently this is a ongoing pattern of which I am but one person to have had this experience of him telling editors they are stalking him etc.--MONGO (talk) 03:34, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

They don't even bother to respond to me after I make a comment. In the two times I can think of us "discussing" anything, he posts his inflammatory tirade then I respond and he never comes back. Does he expect me to offer him a pink unicorn to cuddle by in my wording or just turn the other cheek. I'm not posturing for an admin run so why the hell would I put up with his bad faith accusations?--MONGO (talk) 03:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I was surprised to see my username invoked as I haven't been active on Misplaced Pages in a while. There are editors that I have had disagreements with; I've even learned from them and apologized, but Snoog is by far the most aggressively mean-spirited editor I have come across - Snoog is a bully. We need diverse people to contribute and balance each other out on these articles, but Snoog's continual lashing out at people make apparent that their biases are so large they don't believe they should be subjected to Wiki's checks and balance system. Snoog does not engage in good faith dialogue and is not afraid to quickly escalate any interaction to demoralize any new contributor they disagree with. I know some have commented on some of Snoog's merits, but frankly, editors like Snoog tarnish the brand and authority of Misplaced Pages. Dy3o2 (talk) 04:01, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• So we have some edits by snooganssnoogans, a revert by mongo, a hasty accusation by snoogans, a restoration of some of the edits (and discussion) by mongo, and here an apology by snoogans for the accusation. Then we have a whole bunch of other inevitable stuff complete with pings of many people who have been in disputes with snoogans in the past (I'm not saying those pings were inappropriate btw). There seems little doubt that snoogans has been stalked by multiple people in the past. There is also little doubt that snoogans is being too quick to assume as much. How about this for a close to avoid a potentially long, heated thread: "The issue that brought us here is resolved and discussed on the talk page. All editors are reminded that stalking other editors' edits is unacceptable, and snoogans is cautioned to be careful with accusations of stalking." — Rhododendrites \\ 04:21, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  I fully reverted myself and have not restored anything. No, I think Snooganssnoogans needs a site ban but that will only come with a full arbcom case.--MONGO (talk) 04:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  I fully reverted myself and have not restored anything - This is what I meant by "restoration of some of edits". Perhaps I should've said all. I wasn't saying you did anything wrong at all FWIW. I do agree with one thing, though: a sprawling ANI thread with various people bringing up old issues is unlikely to accomplish anything, especially when the matter that prompted it is more or less resolved. — Rhododendrites \\ 04:42, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  I personally would not say mine is old. Also it demonstrates a long term issue that does not seem to be addressed. PackMecEng (talk) 04:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Long-term disruption at Falun Gong by User:TheBlueCanoe (involves the deprecated The Epoch Times, Shen Yun, and various other closely related entities)

Bear with me here: Anyone encountering this ANI stands to benefit from reading this NBC News article from August 2019 ("Trump, QAnon and an impending judgment day: Behind the Facebook-fueled rise of The Epoch Times"), this New Yorker article from March 2019 ("Stepping into the Uncanny, Unsettling World of Shen Yun"), and this 2019 article from Radio France Internationale ("Shen Yun: Fighting Communism - and making a stack on the side").

Other useful coverage can be found in a September 2019 article from The New Republic ("The Obscure Newspaper Fueling the Far-Right in Europe"), a July 2020 ABC News (Australia) article ("The Power of Falun Gong"), and a June 2020 Axios roundup of recent coverage of Falun Gong attempts to influence US government policy via the Trump administration ("In media agency shakeup, conservative groups push for Falun Gong-backed internet tools").

So, while visiting a city in the US earlier this year (back when we could still do this), I found myself bombarded with ads from Shen Yun, a performance arts group who claim to have revived ancient tradition. As editors who have worked with me here know, I write quite a lot about folklore studies topics on Misplaced Pages. So I decided to dig a little deeper into the group's background and claims. After reading some of the above pieces, I was shocked to see that Misplaced Pages had no coverage of what reliable media sources have been reporting about Falun Gong and its extensions like Shen Yun since around 2016. Upon turning to English Misplaced Pages's article on Falun Gong, the new religious movement behind Shen Yun, I was particularly surprised by how much it read as a promotional piece, totally ignoring any of the increasing media coverage surrounding the topic around the group's far-right pivot and accompanying political involvement. As a regular over at Misplaced Pages's fringe noticeboard, and since I found that Falun Gong leader and founder Li Hongzhi has made all sorts of deeply fringe statements about aliens, homosexuality, and any other number of topics, I decided to go ahead and begin looking for and adding missing coverage. Surely an oversight, I thought.

Well, soon I learned that the absence of this coverage was quite intentional: Single-purpose account editors camped out at the page would quickly revert any mention of these topics. In the article body in particular there appears to have been a general attempt to obfuscate or downplay the central, hierarchal role of leader Li Hongzhi. The article didn't even mention Dragon Springs, a large Falun Gong compound—its de facto headquarters—in Deerpark, New York, or the two Falun Gong schools. There was certainly no discussion about any of the topics raised by the above media sources.

For example, while The Epoch Times and Shen Yun claim otherwise, media sources make it clear that these groups and numerous others operate as Falun Gong extensions, or, as reliable news sources put it: As "Falun Gong media" ("Falun Gong’s founder has referred to Epoch Media Group as 'our media'"]), "Falun Gong outreach efforts" ("The Epoch Media Group, along with Shen Yun, a dance troupe known for its ubiquitous advertising and unsettling performances, make up the outreach effort of Falun Gong") or, more straightforwardly, "religious-political propaganda" or "commercials" ("The ads have to be both ubiquitous and devoid of content so that they can convince more than a million people to pay good money to watch what is, essentially, religious-political propaganda" ... "elaborate commercial for Falun Dafa’s spiritual teachings"), just as a few examples. (And, of course, as of fairly recently, The Epoch Times has been altogether deprecated as a source here on English Misplaced Pages: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Sources).

Instead, English Misplaced Pages's Falun Gong article portrayed Falun Gong as something of an ancient, decentralized tradition persecuted by the Chinese government—just as Falun Gong presents itself—and little else. Not a word about supporting far-right movements over here in Germany, nothing whatsoever about Dragon Springs and Falun Gong schools, and not a whisper about massive monetary support for the Trump campaign in 2016 and since (take a look at the May 14, 2020 revision). While it is no doubt true that adherents in China are persecuted there (the Chinese government is, of course, well known for persecution), the religious group is indeed quite new, as a large amount of academic sources have made perfectly clear: Like Scientology, it's a new religious movement, and scholars don't mince words about this: "Western scholars view Falun Gong as a new religious movement (NRM) though any connection or claim to religion by adherents is strenously denied by adherents." (Farley, Helen. 2014. "Falun Gong: A Narrative of Pending Apocalypse, Shape-Shifting, Aliens, and Relentless Persecution" in Lewis, James R. (editor). Controversial New Religions, p. 241. Oxford University Press.)

And like when Scientology was revealed to have meddled with Misplaced Pages's coverage (Church of Scientology editing on Misplaced Pages), the article swarms with single-purpose accounts ready to lawyer, scrub, and revert away that which does not echo Falun Gong's claims.

Perhaps the most visible editor camped out at the article is User:TheBlueCanoe. Consider this timeline of diffs, wherein myself and others add to the article, and TheBlueCanoe repeatedly removes all 'negative' media coverage of Falun Gong, only giving an inch here or there when a position no longer appears sustainable. Diffs:

• May 19, 2020: I add NBC News coverage to the Falun Gong article
• May 19, 2020a: TheBlueCanoe removes media sources
• May 19, 2020b: Assuming good faith or misunderstanding, I modify the material and add more—but The Blue Canoe removes all 'critical' the media sources again
• May 22, 2020: After another editor restores them, TheBlueCanoe again scrubs the article of 'critical' media sources (Involves @PaleoNeonate:)
• May 24, 2020: TheBlueCanoe again removes all 'critical' media sources (Involves @Mojoworker:)
• June 5, 2020: TheBlueCanoe yet again removes all 'critical' media sources
• June 26, 2020: TheBlueCanoe removes most 'critical' media coverage and all mention of Dragon Springs (Involves @Doug Weller:)
• July 13, 2020: TheBlueCanoe strips summary of political involvement and accompanying 'critical' media sources from lead
• July 27, 2020: Yet more of the same

This would have undoubtedly continued indefinitely until either myself or other editors just gave up on adding to the article or an administrator intervened. Fortunately, an adminstrator did step in, @Guerillero:, and indefinitely locked the article to non-administrators on July 27, 2020. () Unfortunately, no further action has been taken about the repeated scrubbing, so it's hard to expect much else when the protection is eventually lifted.

It's very difficult to view the above diffs as anything more than scrubbing. It's obvous that the NBC News sources above are quality reliable sources. These events and connections are important and require coverage. However, it's easy to picture that, sooner or later, maybe even as soon as the article is no longer protected, TheBlueCanoe will simply swoop in again and strip the media sources out once more.

I later learned that TheBlueCanoe had aggressively removed similar material from the article before I came along. Compare this August 30, 2019 revert by TheBlueCanoe, wherein TheBlueCanoe stripped the NBC News piece from the article before the above diffs, and this May 15, 2020 revert by TheBlueCanoe, which dared to mention Falun Gong's connection to, for example, the Q Anon conspiracy theory promoted by The Epoch Times) (@Nathan868:. This approach has been the case since at least 2013, over time the user snowballed to remove all 'negative' coverage of Falun Gong (see the thread to which this June 14 2013 diff is attached, and here's another from June 29, 2013 — there are plenty more). Sure, these old edits have their issues, but while we're not likely to refer to Falun Gong as a "cult" in Wikivoice (and shouldn't)—cult is a term scholars generally don't use in that colloquial context—we do need coverage of why and how this appelation is so commonly applied to the new religious movement, and by who, for example.

Anyway, taken as a whole, it seems to me that there's a clear, long-term pattern here for what is essentially a single purpose account. TheBlueCanoe has been a long-term disruptive presence on Misplaced Pages's Falun Gong page, yet while I have edited, the account contributes next to nothing to the article itself. There's not a lot of contribution happening here, but a lot of disruption.

TheBlueCanoe is not alone. Notably, in the background are the other entrenched editors who step in to echo TheBlueCanoe. When I came around on May 19 to introduce the media sources, @Cleopatran Apocalypse: unsuccessfully sought to have me topic banned (). This yielded various admin comments noting that there appeared to be some level of off-wiki collusion occuring to shape the Falun Gong article. This editor also has a history of, for example, defending The Epoch Times. () Other editors have also mysteriously appeared out of the woodwork to either revert to TheBlueCanoe's preferred version or to echo him on the talk page: Take @Bstephens393: as an example. This account's first edit since 2013 was on May 19, 2020—as you'll note, the very day I added the media sources—at which time he popped in to agree with TheBlueCanoe () and weigh in Cleopatran's attempt to have yours truly topic banned (). There's no shortage of stuff like this around this and related articles.

I think it's important to emphasize that, despite the drive-by media source stripping and wall-of-text attempts at somehow lawyering away or hiding the above media sources, myself and others have continued building the article out with quality sources. Some of the editors who have endured the onslaught of revisions—and involved in some of the diffs above—include @Horse Eye Jack: and @Binksternet:, both of whom built English Misplaced Pages's new Dragon Springs from material introduced in the Falun Gong article.

In short, Falun Gong and related articles would greatly benefit from administrators willing to step in and take action when an account comes along and attempts to scrub the article of media sources or anything else that might seem 'critical' or 'unfair' to the article's subjects: After all, Misplaced Pages isn't censored. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It would be quite possible — even fairly straightforward — to present a diametrically opposite story of events over the last couple of months. Indeed, my complaint about User:Bloodofox's abusive tone, personal attacks, aggressive style, and bullying did so, to a certain degree.

It would also be fairly straightforward to present a completely different narrative of the topic in question. In general, I think that Misplaced Pages should favor high quality scholarship over media reporting, and WP:RECENT is to be avoided. High quality scholarship is distinguished from media reporting because (in this case) it is typically ethnographic work, or detailed textual analysis, by scholars with relevant, established expertise, including linguistic expertise and cultural knowledge. Such scholars have often spent years embedded in Falun Gong communities, or have a background in Chinese religions, and they portray a rather different state of affairs to that Bloodofox depicts. No one has said that media sources should not be used. These are disputes about emphasis and due weight. For example, is it appropriate to have several longish blockquotes from media reports on some recondite question of FLG practice...? That sort of thing.

The main problem with this complaint, if that is what it is, is that it seeks to preempt a resolution on the question of how Falun Gong should be handled on Misplaced Pages by biasing readers with Bloodofox's preferred emphases and interests in the topic. Imagine the opposite complaint that started with how a poor innocent faith community that only believes in truth and tolerance is being persecuted by a big bad communist state who harvest their organs, and there are some editors here who are trying to persecute them even more by perpetuating that propaganda. I would hope such an effort would be looked upon rather dimly.

As for the edits Bloodofox highlights: each was preceded and followed by extensive debate on the talk page. Some editors engaged in that debate by focusing on the content, issues of due weight, and sourcing; others called names, made personal attacks, and went into long FORUMing about how their views on the article subject are the only legitimate views to have.

As for my "history" of "defending the Epoch Times," people can read my comment for themselves (I had forgotten about it and don't think I contributed much after that). I have become quite familiar with the literature on this topic since getting into these disputes, but I kind of hate touching the pages because of how nasty and personal it gets. If you do not subscribe to a certain narrative, you get called an apologist. I so strongly object to this. The bullying, name-calling, aggressive edit warring are the actual major problems here. It's natural that people are going to have divergent views on a phenomenon like this. The whole point is to hash out such differences in good faith. Bloodofox seems to think that is becoming increasingly difficult, and I would fully agree.

In fact, the incident that apparently triggered this complaint perfectly illustrates why. The other day, user:Binksternet removed from the article the three main beliefs of Falun Gong, and inserted a conference paper by a scholar who argues that those beliefs are in fact a "tactic for evading deeper inquiry" and that members of Falun Gong are instructed to lie about their practice. This was a dubious representation of the original source anyway, it turned out.

Note that the central beliefs of Falun Gong being "truth, benevolence, tolerance" appears in almost every scholarly work on that group. This is not some fringe fact. Note also that there are a number of major academic books and papers by established scholars about the beliefs of Falun Gong, which convey opposite ideas to those of this scholar, in her conference paper (i.e. not a peer reviewed document, but something presented to other scholars for comment prior to publication). Note also that there are certain disputes in the study of Falun Gong, where people with area expertise (Chinese language, background in Chinese religion etc.) look somewhat askance at folks like Heather Kavan, who does not speak Chinese, has no relevant background, and teaches speechwriting. She also gives interviews to Chinese agencies connected with the anti-Falun Gong security campaign in China, etc. I am not saying here that she can't be used, but I'm trying to convey some of the context at play. I wrote on the talk that I believe having some discussion of how FLG seeks to represent its beliefs would also be valid. I was reading through Noah Porter's celebrated ethnography the other day and he has a whole section on FLG discursive strategies. They have a whole lot of weird beliefs, but say that they are not central, and try to represent them in a manner that makes them most understandable to outsiders. All that, including the evasions, is worth being represented somewhere. But to use one dubious source in order to remove info about the central beliefs, reported in all the major scholarship, and instead say that they're just evasive tactics and members are taught to lie... well. That is the dispute about these pages in a nutshell.

It's indeed very difficult to have productive discussions when editors have such vastly different understandings of our shared enterprise here. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 06:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• For newbies like me, there were two arbitration cases: WP:AFLG (2007) + WP:ARBFG2 (2012). The log of 2020 discretionary sanctions is here where JzG and Guerillero have recorded sanctions. I see that I commented at Cleopatran Apocalypse's talk regarding a very bad aspersions issue where Bloodofox was said to have "repeatedly misrepresented sources". I guess we need to draw up a list of editors to topic ban and articles to watch. Johnuniq (talk) 07:59, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  Johnuniq, Cleopatran Apocalypse has <700 edits, so is not wise in our ways despite xyr long history here. As admins I think we being by setting expectations about neutrality and brevity of reports, and correct use of WP:BRD, de-escalation, consensus-forming and dispute resolution. This seems to me to be escalating beyond the objective merits of the complaints. Guy (help!) 08:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• With regard to "scrubbing", I found it important that the contentious reverts dealt with the 2nd paragraph in the lead and a full section at the top of the article. While policy does not say in which order the sections should be, I think it's odd that the first section of the article would be about political involvement and include long quotes from the LA Times and NBC News. Are the political positions of the The Epoch Times newspaper and the Shen Yun dance company such an important aspect of the FLG that they warrant a full 2nd paragraph in the lead? While this content should be in the article in some form, the diffs cited here mostly detail a disagreement about WP:DUEWEIGHT. --Pudeo (talk) 13:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Were placement the issue here, moving the material around would be no problem—that'd be a typical response on Misplaced Pages, of course. However, as the diffs display, what I and others experienced above was repeated, wholesale removal of any and all 'critical' media sources. Editors before me also experienced this in the sample diffs above (but simply moved on, rather than contest the matter further). :bloodofox: (talk) 13:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• I am willing to answer questions from the community about my interactions within the topic area and attempts to control the disruption through sanctions. Please ping me if you require me.

  I think my actions speak for just how contentious this topic area is. Placing most everyone involved in the article under a 0RR sanction and indef full protecting the article was not something I did lightly. As you can see at WP:AC/DS/Log#Falun Gong 2 various attempts have been made to keep the article from becoming a mud fight. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:42, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• This subject is frustrating as Hell. I think it needs a full ArbCom to sift and sort, and decide who needs TBANS and who needs CBANS. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  What Binksternet said. We need to exclude the pro and anti POVers. They are WP:NOTHERE anyway. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Frankly, I agree with bloodofox, that this is going to require Scientology-level sanctions & enforcement to get an actual, factual set of articles established. I've been wary of even dipping my toes into this area because I've seen how fervent believers descend on any attempt to provide factual information they deem critical of the group. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• The Falun Gong topic area has seen major content battles over the years. The three major groups of involved editors are 1) pro-Falun Gong activists, 2) anti-Falun Gong activists, and 3) veteran editors who happen upon the conflict and try to sort out the problems. Bloodofox and myself are in the latter category, while BlueCanoe and Cleopatran Apocalypse are in group 1. Group 2 would have included PatCheng until he was recently blocked for socking. STSC would also have been counted in the group 3, having started the username 14 years ago, and getting extensively involved in other articles before making Falun Gong edits, but they were hounded off the Falun Gong topic by users from group 1 including Blue Canoe and Marvin 2009 (who is now topic banned for pro-Falun Gong activism.) If group 1 and group 2 were allowed to edit freely, the article would be a constant war of reversions and non-neutral additions. What is needed is for the article to be developed by veteran editors from group 3, who are impartial and will attempt to frame the topic neutrally. Bloodofox should develop a version of the article in userspace, and we can have a Request for Comment to see whether that version should replace the current contentious one. And all editors in the groups 1 and 2 should have 0RR restrictions placed as soon as they are identified by their behavior. Binksternet (talk) 17:00, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Hum, this comment by STSC was quite chilling and I'm not surprised he was topic-banned. --Pudeo (talk) 18:47, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
    • Oh, my. Yes, that is egregious, and it would put STSC into the second group, if not banned or blocked. Binksternet (talk) 22:29, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I think those three groups just about sum it up. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
• Since this has gathered some admin attention and results in admin action by Guerillero already, I just wanted to mention that I did plan to eventually file AE reports and ask a topic ban for some editors who appear to have a conflict of interest about the topic. —PaleoNeonate – 17:06, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  Please do. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:23, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

  I would also be interested in an AE report --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• I made the mistake of getting involved in the FG space within the last year, I say mistake because its by far the most acrimonious space I’ve ever come across and I’m familiar with the Taiwan-China and Israeli-Arab conflict spaces so I thought I had seen acrimony, disruption, IPs, and SPAs but it was nothing like the FG space. There is a clique of long term editors/gatekeepers who appear to have COI issues with FG, as far as I can tell they’ve never been successfully challenged and most editors will simply leave the FG space after encountering them rather than endure their assault. This discussion is a step in the right direction but dealing solely with TheBlueCanoe won’t solve the problem. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
• I'd have to agree that TheBlueCanoe is disruptive. My edit mentioned by the OP merely expanded a ref with a cite template and Google books URL, and removed content from the lead that was already mentioned further up in the lead. Yet it was reverted by TheBlueCanoe. This editor is seemingly the poster child for WP:CPUSH – ticking most of the boxes there and exhibiting apparent civility in conversations on the talk page while editing tendentiously. As mentioned, TBC is not the only problem, as there are many SPAs that appear out of nowhere when there's contention at the articles involved. I agree with Binksternet about the three major groups of involved editors, and echoing what Horse Eye Jack says just above, as a member of group 3, I'm disinclined to make the same mistake and wade into the morass of Falun Gong related articles – at least pending the conclusion of the promised AE (or Arbcom case). Mojoworker (talk) 18:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• It appears that User:Bloodofox is (perhaps unintentionally) misrepresenting my diffs above, so I want to clarify: I never supported any motion to get him topic banned. This is proven by the same diff that he provided. It was a brief statement that I gave after a) encountering the extraordinary hubbub on this page after my long PhD hiatus, b) intended as a neutral, uninvolved observation, where I both sided with Bloodofox's suggestion to include the NRM label and expressed my concerns as follows: "Reasonable people can have reasonable disagreements. There are legitimate questions to be resolved here, and patience is undoubtedly a virtue when the articles in question have a frustratingly complicated history." It should also be self-evident that just because all editors have not spent tens of thousands of hours on Misplaced Pages, that doesn't mean they are not here to build an encyclopedia. Furthermore, anyone who has devoted a considerable part of their life to editing cannot be automatically considered neutral just because of their accrued social capital. Ostensibly some people are on Misplaced Pages mainly to wield definitional power (e.g. in their fight for/against pseudoscience, secular materialism, militant atheism, conservatism, liberalism, or wherever their first principles are anchored.)

I've acquainted myself with the previous ArbCom cases, and merits and accomplishments in other areas have never been understood as a free pass to cast aspersions and engage in ideological battles, irrespective of Misplaced Pages "seniority." Overall, the only way around confirmation biases and echo chambers is open discussion about things like structure, due weight, NPOV, and other Misplaced Pages policies -- even if these have recently been framed as irrelevant nitpicking or hindrances to getting things done. Furthermore, if Wikipedians want to assess any transcendentalist religion primarily from its most recent critics' perspective (and rewrite the lede based on that) all the while showing contempt for peer-reviewed academic research if it doesn't fit the narrative, we've already turned into RationalWiki and should openly admit that.

I happen to be specialized in related topics as an academic professional, and the only reason I got engaged after my hiatus was to ensure that the various perspectives of Religious Studies, Sociology, and East Asian studies would not be scrubbed now that China is clearly on the offensive on various fronts. That said, rational debate is what I have always stood for. I have nothing against anyone's POV; the root cause of what we're currently seeing is the broken process of good-faith discussion, and from an uninvolved, objective standpoint, I believe it's apparent that this process has been equally undermined by those involved "veterans" who're now strutting as purveyors of discernment and truth. Bstephens393 (talk) 03:21, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Statement by TheBlueCanoe

.

TL;DR: I believe this should go to ArbCom.

• I've been editing this topic for several years. I'm very familiar with the scholarly literature, and my interest has been in trying to ensure that the page is not overtaken by ideological agendas, and that the content conforms to Misplaced Pages's content policies.

• Bloodofox, Horse Eye Jack, Binksternet, and others began editing this article since April or May of this year. Since then, the Falun Gong pages have been the site of endless and apparently intractable edit wars involving at least a dozen editors.

• These users do not appear to have even an elementary level of understanding of Falun Gong. In the case of Bloodofox, his view of this topic seems to be based almost entirely on relatively news coverage in left-liberal news publications (since the Trump election, really). While the perspective offered in these news stories is important, it is also just one perspective within an expansive and varied body of academic literature.

• These editors treat the page as an ideological battleground. Binksternet, for instance, removes references to Falun Gong's core moral teachings, making some remarkable claims and misrepresenting sources along the way. Bloodofox and others have inserting lengthy block quotes from recent news articles haphazardly on the page, with no regard for coherent narrative structure, due weight, or balance, and a tendency to stretch the sources to support claims that are not directly made. They have edited the lede to highlight apparent controversies that would appear extremely marginal in relation to the broader topic Falun Gong. For instance, the lede section they prefer does not include any mention of Falun Gong's core religious tenets, but it does tell us what a Falun Gong-affiliated dance troupe thinks about the theory of evolution. Etc.

• In other words, there are legitimate questions of Neutrality and Due Weight in how these news sources are presented on the page, as User:Pudeo noted. My edits, cited above by Bloodofox, were never aimed at "scrubbing" or "censoring" the article, but about ensuring a neutral and proportional representation, particularly in the lede section. I always explained my rationale on the talk page. However....

• The conflict is intractable because talk page discussions are impossible: every attempt to discuss content questions is quickly derailed by personal attacks, soapboxing, strawmaning opponents' arguments, and demands to stop discussing content (e.g.

• Bloodofox is not the only offender, but certainly the worst: he personalizes every content dispute with accusations of "scrubbing" or "censorship," and insinuations that anyone who disagrees with them is an SPA, is acting in bad faith, or is an agent of Falun Gong. Discourse is impossible in this environment. (e.g. Bloodofox: Horse Eye Jack:

• For an example of how this dynamic plays out, read this recent talk page discussion, which is sadly typical. I describe in detail why I edited the lede section as I did, and invite other editors to discuss the content. Both Binksternet and Bloodofox state their intention not to discuss the issues, personalize the dispute, and edit war back to their preferred version.

• Some of the editors here have, in addition to the foregoing, also engaged in conduct that might reasonably be interpreted as harassment and hounding. This seems like an attempt to drive their perceived ideological opponents off the page. But I will save my evidence of that for ArbCom or AE.

So, again, the issues here are significant and intractable. It's a massive pain, but I believe this needs to go to ArbCom. When this case was filed I was preparing a request for Arbitration, but a recommendation from uninvolved editors here might make the case stronger. TheBlueCanoe 22:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

You're aware, I'm sure, regarding your comment about "left-liberal news publications", that "Reality has a well known liberal bias". It's almost as if the liberal media wish to reveal the truth. Binksternet (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I liked the way a documentary called this: "the gospel of the liberal media". —PaleoNeonate – 23:27, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I can’t believe I just clicked through all of those diffs (you’re attributing some of Fox’s work to me BTW, might want to check those diffs again), not one was problematic or supported your arguments about harassment, hounding, etc. The only mildly questionable thing is a lack of understanding on my part about how to use SPA tags back in the day which was quickly addressed, that not one of your complaints here though its just something I noticed about my old work. BTW you’re multiple days into not providing diffs per WP:ASPERSIONS on your talk page so its interesting that you have the time to compile diffs for this page. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Ivan Humphrey

I am concerned with the behaviour of user:Ivan Humphrey – edit warring and uncommunicativeness. They came to my attention when they marked Analogical models as American spelling. I reverted this as it was not an exclusively American subject and some British spellings are found on the page. I then noted that the user had been on a bit of a spree with this and reverted a few more (admittedly, some of them might have been more justifiable – one generated a discussion at Talk:Analog computer#ENGVAR). I stopped reverting at that point and requested the user explain the criteria they were using . There has been no response to this request, other than the user edit warring the notices back in to some articles . This was done with Twinkle rollback without using an edit summary, contrary to both WP:Rollback and WP:Twinkle. I suggest the user is banned from using Twinkle for rollback as they are clearly misusing it and not acknowledging that. SpinningSpark 12:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Spinningspark: Come on, pal. I just add AmE template in articles/titles strongly use AmE spelling, such as 'analog', color, etc. Ivan Humphrey (talk) 14:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

This is not about whether you were right or wrong in assigning those articles to American English. It is about your edit warring and misuse of rollback. SpinningSpark 16:27, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Ivan Humphrey: Hmmm. I'm afraid your response does not engender confidence. Could you please elaborate on your use of TWINKLE/rollback? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Well Television has been tagged a American English on the talk page for over 4 years now, so the reversion of the tag being added to the main article was unwarranted. Canterbury Tail talk 16:40, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm inclined to de-rollback Ivan Humphrey. Lack of accountability. (That does not just apply to ADMINS when admin-type pow er tools are misused.) Is there a mechanism to de-TWINKLE as well, or just ban its use. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:21, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It used to be possible to forcibly remove it in the days when it was added as code to the user's js page, but not sure that that can be done now its a gadget. Possibly something clever in js can be done on the user's Twinkle preferences page, but probably not worth the effort. SpinningSpark 23:00, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

197.83.246.23 trying to impose poorly sourced fan theory (i.e. fringe) and making disruptive edits questioning widely held views from reliable sources

197.83.246.23 (or 197.86.143.179, 197.86.143.126, 197.86.143.140, etc.) has been trying to impose a fan theory at The Master (Doctor Who) diff and The Monk (Doctor Who) diff plus some other articles (diff and diff). When the differences between primary sources and secondary sources as well as the idea of due weight in regards to neutral point of view are explained, they respond with indifference diff or point-y edits diff. Also, unwilling to understand due weight diff and fringe. DonQuixote (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

That's not it at all, and DonQuixote knows that. Actually, there are multiple issues here.

First, the "fan theory" is reliably sourced. It was inserted to try and give some NPOV to the articles.

More importantly, the The Monk *Doctor Who) article is a complete mess. The problem with this particular article is that there are multiple, mutually contradictory, accounts as to the nature of this fictional character. And each one has some sort of RS to back it up. DonQuixote(and another editor who appears as if on demand) are trying to forcibly push ONE of these latter-day interpretations as the "one correct version". The irony is that DonQuixote has repeatedly stated that "all viewpoints must be shown", and accusing me of being the one trying to push one POV version. DonQuixote is now upset because I moved a sourced sentence written in an unofficial guidebook approximately thirty years after the character appeared on tv from out of the introductory paragraph to further down the page.

In short, I had thought that everyone involved had agreed that only the information relating to the actual character, the creation of said character, and the relevant reliable sources relating to the television appearances should be in the introduction. And then all other information from subsequent dates be placed on the article, but not in the introduction. And none of these subsequent, contradictory, accounts should be given precedence over any of the others. Yet DonQuixote is pushing for ONE account to be made out to be "correct", even blanking valid sourced information. I did not remove anything. In fact, I added information, and clarified certain things to try and attempt to keep the NPOV status of the article intact.

Yet DonQuixote seems to be heavily invested in pushing ONE latter-day version of the character as the "correct" one, to the detriment of ALL other interpretations, all of which are reliably sourced, even attempting to make deceptive edits to the article. 197.83.246.23 (talk) 19:14, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Don't want to start a discussion here, as it's not going to be constructive, but two points

It was inserted to try and give some NPOV to the articles.

see WP:false balance

there are multiple, mutually contradictory, accounts as to the nature of this fictional character.

The character has appeared in multiple media written by multiple authors--so that explains that.

DonQuixote (talk) 20:14, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Why don't you want to start a discussion? After all, you were the one who reported another editor for 'disruptive behaviour'. yet, when the other editor tries to explain the situation, you now have no interest in commenting on the "incident" that you yourself reported?

In a nutshell, there is a fictitious character who appeared in Doctor Who on television in the 1960's. And, ever since different people in different media, over more than 40 years, have defined and written about that character in a variety of different ways. To the point where there are now multiple contradictory, and utterly irreconcilable, versions of the character in different narratives. And, each mutually distinct version has reliable sources stating that that version is the "one real version". What DonQuixote wants is for his preferred version to be the focus of the article, even ONLY using one type of "reliable source" in the introduction. And then for EVERYTHING ELSE to be buried in the article, sometimes being no more than a link here or there. He has also blanked reliably sourced information from the article if it contradicts with his preferred interpretation. And, he has phrased certain sections in an unsourced, deceptive manner, which would make a reader of said article get a very different understanding of issues from what the reality is.

All I have attempted to do is make the article neutral, and not to give preference to one conflicting version of said fictitious character of another. And that is the issue. To be blunt, DonQuixote has stated his preference for Big Finish Audios and their ONE adaptation over all else. And DonQuixote wishes to make the "Big Finish version" the "one true version" to the exclusion of all else. Well, he has no problem with everything else being there, just not in the lead the way the Big Finish information is. And maybe a sentence or two, as opposed to the rambling summaries of in-universe Big Finish storylines. If my objecting to that is a mistake, then I apologise. If note, then I suggest other editors look at this article, and try to clean it up, and remove some of the fanboy nonsense from it. 197.83.246.23 (talk) 11:33, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The IP has now reverted me to reinsert a copyrighted image into one of the articles. CMD (talk) 12:12, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I should have mentioned this at the beginning, but the IP also dismisses sources (secondary sources and adaptations in other media) that don't support or contradict his POV, as can be seen in this discussion, amongst many. The IP thinks that I'm biased towards Big Finish because I dare to defend something that he dislikes diff. DonQuixote (talk) 14:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Hmkwfrance

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hmkwfrance has been editing for a few months and has mostly focused on Dawoodi Bohras and related articles, particularly people involved with that group. They've got significant issues around using sources, understanding what is a reliable source, understanding notability and recently, copy-paste from sources. They've been previously blocked on Commons for copyright issues after uploading multiple images and claiming as "own work". Most of the articles they've created have been moved to draft space, but today started recreating them in article space Qasim Hakimuddin vs draft:Qasim Hakimuddin, Ammar Jamaluddin vs Draft:Ammar Jamaluddin. Every single article they've created has had significant issues, even the new ones having basic sourcing problems like dates of birth. They're turning into a major time-sink. I'd like some outside review on this. I'd like to see them allowed only to create new article via draft at a minimum. Thanks. Ravensfire (talk) 13:44, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. It's time for the user to assure us they are able to absorb WP:COPYVIO so as to self-correct. El_C 13:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

User Reinthal: 3RR breach and persistent harassment

Sadly I have to report the unacceptable editing of user:Reinthal today.

S/he has a view that a citation published in the Mail on Sunday and mailonline, concerning the TV series World on Fire (TV series) is acceptable, whereas I do not, the Daily Mail and Mailonline both having been identified as unreliable sources by multiple RFCs.

S/he is in breach of WP:3RR by having reverted this edit to the article four times within seven hours

I reverted three times, on the basis that WP policy on the reliability of the Mail and mailonline is perfectly clear, but stopped after three in line with 3RR. Such that his version of the article is currently live.

Given the similarity of the previous edit, it is possible that user:122.150.83.215 is a sock puppet of this user.

Despite having ended the edit war myself, he (or she) posted warnings on my talk page both about warring and that I was in breach of 3RR. I have pointed out that 3RR prohibits more than three reversions and also that s/he shouldn’t be trying to force edits as to what appears on my own talk page but he has now SEVEN TIMES tried to bully me by reposting his/her factually inaccurate warnings onto my talk page, in clear breach of policy that gives users the right to decide the content of their own talk pages. Here are the seven edits Edit warring another user’s talk page so persistently is clear bullying and harassment, contrary to WP policy. (Update, now TEN identical edits to my talk page warning me of a policy I haven’t broken in the first place)

It isn’t acceptable that another editor should try to force content onto my own talk page, but I have given up removing his inaccurate statements as he is clearly trying to intimidate me my immediately restoring his warnings each time I try to remove them from my page. I would ask for intervention to bring his unnecessarily aggressive and false accusations to an end. MapReader (talk) 18:17, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

(Non-admin comment) WP:RSPDM provides up-to-date links to discussions and conclusions as to the usability of The Daily Mail and related sites as sources. Narky Blert (talk) 18:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I saw Ponyo has blocked them for 72 hours for the repeated posting on your talk page (including after I explained to them that WP:BLANKING allows you to remove the warning). RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that needed to stop.-- Jezebel's Ponyo 19:21, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you kindly. Why he didn’t go check 3RR and see that I only reverted him the three times and then left his edit live, I don’t know. MapReader (talk) 19:35, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/81.101.15.25

This user has only just come off a two-week block and has already resumed disruptive editing – mainly going from one BLP to the next changing "English" to "British" (example). Please could someone uninvolved re-block? SuperMarioMan (Talk) 19:41, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Without wishing to defend the editing behaviour, having taken a look at this page and seeing that the infobox describes him as a British citizen, isn’t the underlying edit actually reasonable? MapReader (talk) 19:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Question, since he wasn't born in England, how is he English? And British is a nationality technically, not English. Canterbury Tail talk 19:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Which was also my thought. British citizenship is a verifiable fact. Englishness is rather more tricky - whilst most people born in England might be considered English, there is cross-border traffic (easy for someone living in North Wales to be born in Chester, for example), and of course plenty of Brits have parents from different of the constituent nations. I have no problem with someone of obviously Scottish heritage being described as Scottish rather than British, but as a general rule British is the nationality, not English. MapReader (talk) 19:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to link to this edit (I got the two "R. Grants" mixed up ...), which I think provides a clearer example. On their talk page, the user was pointed to this guidance but doesn't seem to have taken it on board, and rapid-fire editing to enforce a particular label is disruptive. SuperMarioMan (Talk) 20:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Had he halted to discuss instead of insisting that he was going to continue, he would not be currently blocked but he has not participated in any consensus building and has the net yield as a POV warrior. The lack of a block appeal but the return to the same behavior is not a good sign. Blocked one month.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Berean Hunter Looks like they are back - see Special:Contributions/82.132.247.39.-- P-K3 (talk) 12:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Not specific to this IP, but a general comment. WP:UKNATIONALS is worthwhile reading on this question. I don't agree that British is the default - we should look for what the sources say, and what the subject says about themselves. Changing an existing article to reflect one's own personal preference, without reference to sources or discussion, strikes me as inherently disruptive. GirthSummit _(blether) 07:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Anon blocked 31 hours. If someone who can see would like to rangeblock. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 13:04, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• The vast majority of edits to politicians and to user talk pages concerning politicians in 82.132.244.0/22 are confirmed from a long term sockmaster and I have cu blocked that range for a month, Deepfriedokra. I'm not sure whether 81.101.15.25 is the same editor though.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

An instance of racial harassment / attack?

This is my first posting to an admin noticeboard so please be patient if this is in any way a violation of protocol.

Recently I was targeted as "a black wikipedian, of course" by an IP user here: Is this an instance of racial harassment or attack warranting further action beyond the warning for derogatory language which I left on the IP's talk page? Further, should I take it upon myself to delete it or should I wait for an admin to scrub it completely from the page history? I wouldn't want to overreact but I am also concerned that a message like this, full of shouting and unfounded accusations of "black hate", be allowed to remain and possibly alienate editors of color. Note that I had engaged with this IP range on that talk page in the past, but this latest screed represents a marked escalation. (Please note too that I left a similar question at User_talk:Ian.thomson yesterday. I am not trying to forum shop here, just trying to be proactive about addressing the issue ASAP.)

Many thanks. Generalrelative (talk) 20:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @Generalrelative:, you should be commended for your restraint, and your choice to open an ANI discussion seems perfectly proper to me. It would be for an admin to decide, but the talk page comment added by the IP could qualify for "revision deletion," or scrubbing. There is no uniform policy on removing personal attacks, but out of boldness I have done so in this case. Anyone who feels strongly against that action is free to revert. --Jprg1966 21:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Bloody Hell! Revdel'd-- hate speech. Anon blocked one week- hate speech. Zero tolerance. @Generalrelative: If such recurs, feel free to contact me directly and post here. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:27, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Generalrelative (talk) 21:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

And if Deepfriedokra is not around, feel free to ask me for help - racist attacks like that are intolerable. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Any further action possible? Leaving a strong warning to the IP owner? Blocking this IP from doing any edits for, say, the coming month? Jnyssen (talk) 04:05, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Deepfriedokra, Boing! said Zebedee You might want to look at a range block? The specific IP that DFO blocked only edited once, it seems clear from the talk page conversation above that the same person was editing from a range of IPs. The /64 might do it? I'm on mobile, so can't easily investigate, and am a bit of an amateur at IP ranges, but it would be worth looking at. GirthSummit _(blether) 04:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The /56 has some incivil trollish edits --Deepfriedokra (talk) 05:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

which also show up in the /64. IMA makea rangeblock. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 05:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC) 2 weeks to avoid collateral damage. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 05:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yep, looks good. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Deepfriedokra thanks. GirthSummit _(blether) 07:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to topic ban Bastun

• Bastun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Bastun needs to be topic banned from J. K. Rowling and from other BLPs that have commented on transgender topics. This is because of a persistent, ongoing issue involving WP:BLP violations because of Bastun's extremely negative feelings about Rowling, and their advocacy on the subject of transgender resulting in tendentious editing, which involves rejection of WP:NPOV, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT (IDHT) behavior, and personal attacks.

Note that on 4 July 2019, they were given a DS (discretionary sanctions) alert for BLP:

• Here they added material claiming some signatories saying they would not have signed it had they known anti-trans activists were signing it. None of the given sources support this BLP violation. I removed it. Bastun re-added it with another source that does not verify it. I took it to the talk page (my 17:34, 27 July 2020 comment). Five editors including myself agreed that criticism not specifically about Rowling should be removed. I later re-remove it on these grounds and am reverted by Bastun, who falsely claims that it's referenced material and No consensus on removal - clear IDHT. They then adjusted the statement to refer only to Boylan. This is again a BLP violation, since she never said she 'would not have signed it had they known anti-trans activists were signing'. Bastun claimed on the talk page that they were Restoring per several editors including myself. This is false. No other editors supported their material.

• The addition about Rowling's signing of the Harper's Letter was proposed by someone else at this discussion on the talk page. Bastun responds, Would this paragraph include analysis of, one the one hand, signing a letter claiming to support free speech, and on the other hand, suing a children's website that published opinions critical of her? Czello rightly points out, Depends, is this analysis covered in any reliable sources? If not us doing that would be WP:SYNTH. Then Bastun turns on a dime to instead argue, Oh, I'm aware of the policy. But you raise a good point. Would the signing of an open letter, where apparently the signatory did not actually stand over the content, be a case of WP:UNDUE? Guy Macon replies, Not covering the open letter -- assuming that it otherwise would be included -- because you don't like her behavior in ther areas would be a violation of WP:NPOV. It would also be WP:OR... We clearly see in this exchange Bastun's anti-Rowling bias and willingness to tendentiously argue whatever it takes for the sake of a POV.

• I then added the material about the open letter. Even though Bastun adds sourced material about people disagreeing with Rowling, they removed the sourced material about Rowling signing the Harper's Letter about open debate with 150 others, claiming "undue", even though this latter incident got more coverage in sources and even has its own Misplaced Pages article. This is a tendentious double standard. They claimed on the talk page, Removed. Per WP:UNDUE. It really is. And considering the other material you've previously removed on the same grounds, I'm assuming you're well familiar with the policy. Notnews, 10-year-rule, etc. This is a case of WP:POINTiness. I discussed it on the talk page and again, consensus was to include.

• Because I used Reuters in the RfC as an example and said elsewhere it was a better source to show significance than the entertainment/gossip press per WP:NOTNEWS, Bastun mocks me repeatedly about it: Even Reuters has covered this. Imagine! Reuters! :sarcasm: Misplaced Pages is not censored. The Guardian source even cites Reuters!!! it's even used in a Reuters explainer! Reuters - imagine!

• Making the same attack on me on two different pages. They say, you're just cutting the addition, because 'notnews'? It's literally news. That goes to show they never actually read WP:NOTNEWS despite me linking to it several times. They then go on to attack, WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for excision or excluding very relevant, referenced material content. You need to seriously address your POV issues. I responded, warning them not to attack me and not accusing them back of serious POV issues - although I certainly am now, in the proper forum for that.

• Bastun using the talk page as a soapbox/forum to complain about Rowling, again revealing their strong bias: It's Maud Flanders levels of "Think of the children!" and - just personal opinion now - points to her poor writing ability (anyone can get lucky, and every generation gets a Hero's journey retelling.) Yes. She's a self-admitted TERF. (She did not say that, and the label TERF is not to be thrown around casually for BLPs. )

• Autumnking2012 stated on the talk page, I am endeavoring to avoid the toxicity of this talk page as much as possible. Why is the talk page toxic? I submit - and Autumnking2012 may be willing to comment - that it is mainly because of Bastun's tendentious behavior, some of which is detailed above. I certainly consider it toxic for that reason.

• At their talk page, regarding another BLP in June, Girth Summit had to admonish Bastun about not engaging in personal comments. Bastun repeatedly and falsely called Lilipo25 a WP:SPA, as well as falsely claiming Lilipo25 said anything about SJWs/social justice warriors.

• They claimed that voting in my own RfC was scandalous: where one of the options presented by the person who drafted the RFC is shot down by that person. How odd. Almost as if a certain conclusion was desired and being orchestrated... They added notifications to the two pages about the RfC that were non-neutral, while ironically and baselessly claiming with a weaselly some editors have expressed concern that the RfC was non-neutral.

There is no shortage of helpful editors who seek to follow NPOV on these pages, adding positive and negative material. Bastun is acting as an obstacle and actively drives good editors away. I have therefore come here to seek a topic ban from BLPs that have commented on transgender topics. Crossroads 21:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

That sounds a bit hard to enforce, perhaps broaden the scope to BLPs in general? CaptainEek ⚓ 21:44, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

•  Note: DS alerts are only good for a year. I've notified them of the gender-related and BLP sanctions. ---22:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I support this proposal. Bastun has a long history of posting negatively-biased material on BLP pages about those who have expressed gender critical views and reverting all attempts to make the pages WP:NPOV. Attempts to discuss edits on the Talk page are futile; even when an RFC has just begun, Bastun will simply refuse to wait for discussion and continue reverting to the biased changes they want in the article and declare it consensus. In addition, they routinely revert edits that remove unsourced, defamatory claims in BLP articles of subjects who have criticised transgender activism, often with sarcastic edit notes .

An example of Bastun reverting attempts to remove negatively-biased content is on the Graham Linehan page. The RFC that can be found on the Linehan Talk Page followed numerous attempts by other editors to change Bastun's biased section heading "Antitransgender activism", only to be immediately reverted by Bastun. Some of the times this occurred include (but are not limited to):

1. April 2019, changed to "Transgender Issues" by Onetwothreeip, reverted by Bastun
2. April 2019, Bring back Daz Sampson removed the section altogether and summarized and integrated the information into an existing section, reverted by Bastun
3. August 2019, changed to "Pro-feminist ally activism by Planted Kiss, reverted by Bastun
4. August 2019, changed to "Activism" by Forty 4, reverted by Bastun
5. October 2019 changed to "Gender critical activism" by an IP, reverted by Bastun
6. April 2020 changed to "Transgender Controversy" by me, reverted by Bastun

While the RFC on the subject heading was still underway in June 2020, Bastun once again reverted it to "Antitransgender activism" and although no consensus approving that was reached, it remains in the article as everyone eventually just gave up trying to improve it. Lilipo25 (talk) 23:07, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I support the proposal. I noted before (in a recent BLP noticeboard discussion about Rowling) that I have purposely been keeping out of the Rowling stuff. But having taken the time to look over all of this (that's a lot of diffs to analyze), I must agree that Bastun is a serious problem in this area. A topic ban appears to be needed. If not that, then some sort of other sanction. This can't be allowed to continue. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC) Tweaked post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support. After viewing the diffs provided by Crossroads and User:Lilipo25, it would be in the best interest of the Misplaced Pages community and its readers if User:Bastun was topic banned. Some people don't pay attention to WP:BLP, and other Misplaced Pages policies, until their arrogance pushes the envelope off a cliff. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 09:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Seriously? Acting like I am equally at fault? As for "I thought that we had all reached the point where we would hash things out on the talk page instead of edit warring", that was right after an/maybe more than one (I don't remember) SPA had turned up, added a bunch of stuff, edit warred, and (one of them) got blocked. I never thought that strict formality we had been doing was meant to be permanent (indeed, it really isn't standard Misplaced Pages procedure) and I thought maybe you had stopped watching. And you ignored all the problems I pointed to above in favor of focusing on the "when" of edits. Crossroads 05:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

And your first timeline is extremely misleading. You begin, I thought that we had all reached the point where we would hash things out on the talk page instead of edit warring, but the page history suggests otherwise, and then state, 16:29, 24 July: Crossroads adds section. But I did not do that out of the blue; it was based on the 2 comments that already existed in support of doing so (and no comments rejecting it) in this section of the talk page: Talk:Politics of J. K. Rowling#Freedom of speech. Further down that timeline, you say, 00:25, 26 July 2020: Crossroads adds a different version. But this again was after further discussion on Talk in that section I just linked to. I was making every effort to engage on Talk and follow WP:BRD. Crossroads 05:24, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I apologize if I implied that you were equally at fault. I thought that the timeline spoke for itself. I think it is fair to say that

the first edit I put in the timeline was the first edit in the dispute (which in itself says nothing about whether it was good or bad, for or against consensus), Being first is simply a fact. It doesn't imply anything. There is no implication that the first edit in the dispute was in any way wrong. Many times it is the second edit where you start to see a problem. occasionally it is the seventh.

When I say "I thought that we had all reached the point where we would hash things out on the talk page instead of edit warring, but the page history suggests otherwise", I am saying the you made an edit when you knew that someone would disagree and most likely revert. No matter how tendentious the revert, that's how edit wars start. What you should have done is post something like this on the talk page: "Bastun, by my count X number of editors agree with A, and Y number of editors agree with B. Can we agree to change it to A without edit warring?" Just going ahead and making what looks like a good edit to you is usually fine, but when a topic is generating a lot of strong feelings and the page has recently been protected because of edit warring, you really need to at least try to get everyone to agree before making the edit. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

You implied I was equally at fault by proposing equal sanctions for me and for Bastun. And I didn't think that Bastun or anyone would necessarily be tendentious enough to revert. The order people normally follow is WP:BRD. Discussion does not have to come first, although there had been discussion. And there is no need to go to extreme lengths on Talk to try to get unanimity of some kind first. Consensus is not unanimity. And lone editors do not have infinite veto power over the larger group. Crossroads 06:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I've thoroughly analyzed the matter, and that includes Lilipo25's analysis above, and I really can't see that Crossroads has done anything wrong here. He's an editor who staunchly follows the rules, including in this case. I see that he's had to put up with a lot regarding Bastun, who has been significantly disruptive in this area. Crossroads has been one of the voices of reason at these difficult articles. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Did I say that Crossroads did anything wrong here? Did I say that Bastun did anything wrong here? Or did I just post a timeline? I have my opinions about who is mostly at fault here, but I was careful not to express those opinions. As for my advice, Misplaced Pages administrators only have a few options t deal with a page where edit wars keep breaking out. They can stop one or more editors from editing Misplaced Pages (blocking). They can stop one or mare editors from editing a certain page or on a certain topic (topic ban) or they can stop everybody from editing the age (full protection). They can identify when a policy or guideline is being violated and use warnings and blocks to stop that behavior. What Adminisrators are not allowed to do is to decide who is right and who is wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not interested in getting into some tit for tat with you. You implied that Crossroads did wrong, which is why Crossroads took offense. I'm sure he can clarify his feelings on that. And, yes, admins decide that editors are in the wrong all the damn time. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

My report has little to do with edit warring. The issue is POV-motivated tendentious editing. Crossroads 06:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Administrators decide that editors are in the wrong all the time. As in "the editors conduct was wrong." They are not allowed to decide that editors are wrong. As in "issuing decisions on content disputes". --Guy Macon (talk) 07:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Semantics. I can ping multiple admins right now who would state, "Yep, Flyer is correct. As seen on ANI and elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, admins decide that editors are in the wrong all the damn time." But I'm not going to do that. I'm going to move on. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 07:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

One can only hope that in moving on you will eventually learn that the difference between "this editor is in the wrong" and "this editor is wrong" is a matter of lexicology and not semantics. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm humored by this. Our past interactions have shown times over that I am one editor you cannot school, and yet you pull this. I don't even think you've read the articles you linked to. No matter what you want to call it, the fact remains that admins have stated "this editor is in the wrong" and "this editor is wrong" times over. And will continue to do so. And they are not wrong for using either wording. They, like me, would see you distinguishing the two as some silly word game. But I suppose you have to seek your wins where you can, even when you fail to win anything. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Support. I really regret to say that I'd support the topic ban as OP suggested. I wish it wouldn't have come to this but I fear bias has crept through to the point of tendentious editing. — Czello 08:13, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I've been pinged above, so just wanted to make a quick comment to say that I've seen this thread, but will be on mobile until tomorrow at the earliest - I would need to be at a computer to read through these diffs properly. I have been aware of some issues in this subject area in recent months, but will reserve judgment on this particular report until I've had chance to investigate properly. GirthSummit _(blether) 08:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment re Crossroads. Personal agendas have been a persistent problem in the editing of all LGBT-related articles. Editor Bastun has been brought to ANI after the whack-a-moling of their edits have exhausted those who are here for the promotion of encyclopedic values, and not for the manipulation of information, censorship of information, and POV belligerence. Crossroads' history as an editor is a completely different universe than that of this problematic editor. There is no comparison. To conclude that topic-banning him should also be considered is to say that Crossroads is on the same level as Bastun. That is utter rubbish ... and a back-handed intimidation tactic. An attempt to punish Crossroads for possessing the boldness and fearlessness to tackle a problematic editor and to call them out, is simply an attack against any editor who has the brass to do what is best for Misplaced Pages and the general public that it serves. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 09:10, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Bastun T-ban. As for Crossroads, Pyxis Solitary immediately above me says all I would have, more concisely; Crossroads is clearly not the problem here or part of the problem. The amount of "this person is transphobic no matter what!" PoV pushing at articles like this is just running off the rails, and it needs to stop. When numerous TG/NB people (note the difference between that and "cis-gender, hetereo, privileged 'allies' speaking in loco parentis on behalf of TG/NB people, who are telling them to STFU because they're being terrible allies") very publicly leap to the defense of Rowling (as not transphobic for simply observing that her biological womanhood has played a formative role in her life and is a different experience from that of transwomen) – yet our "encyclopedic" coverage is very WP:UNDULY dwelling on labeling her transphobic, with cherry-picked sources that support that extreme, echo-chamber, activist viewpoint, and suppressioin of material that does not support that narrative – then we clearly have a problem and need to act to resolve it. If this were confined to a single page, that might be a momentary blip, but Bastun's PoV-pushing crosses multiple related articles, and can be found in others like the Linehan one. As someone below put it, "BLPs generally who have commented on transgender topics" seem to be the flashpoint for Bastun, among others who'll likely end up here eventually. (About two weeks ago, I felt compelled to leave four {{Ds/alert|gg}} templates the same day, due to the frequency with which I was running into highly personalized attacky behavior surrounding TG/NB topics and the sourcing for them. And all of the incivility was coming from the "TERFs must die, and anyone who disagrees with my dogma must be a TERF" sector, not the other side, or the middle). I take the same position about this as I do about everything: WP is not the place for your activism, on anything. If you can't act as a neutral-minded encyclopedist in a topic area, only a biased advocate, then you simply have to be removed from that topic area, no matter the subjective nobility of your intentions, or your ability to be constructive in other topics.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  With all due respect, SMcCandlish, the claim that all of the incivility was coming from the "TERFs must die, and anyone who disagrees with my dogma must be a TERF" sector, not the other side, or the middle seems EXTRAORDINARY, or at least hyperbolic. For your intervention to be relevant, I think the expectation at ANI is to provide diffs. Newimpartial (talk) 15:42, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  SMcCandlish - I echo Newimpartial that you need to provide diffs here, I think. (Or better, strike comments that are not related to this editor) Darren-M talk 16:54, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  That's a silly trap. You're declaring my concerns about Bastun's behavior being part of a broader activism/PoV problem to be supposedly off-topic, then asking me to add actually off-topic diffs regarding other editors exhibiting related patterns, to an ANI that isn't about them. I decline that bait. If the other editors cross the lines again, it'll be a WP:AE or WP:RFARB/WP:ARCA matter, since they have received Ds/alerts; ANI is not the appropriate venue for them any longer. Whether they have individually done anything ANI would take action about is not pertinent. My very point was that the overall pattern of TG/NB-related PoV pushing against various BLP subjects is being generated by more than one editor; one of them is before ANI right now, while the others (if they keep it up) are destined for another venue's examination.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  Um, yeah - most of what you've written about there? To quote Shaggy: "It wasn't me." Bastun 17:13, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  FWIW, I am agreed with SMcCandlish that articles related to this topic suffer from a lot of POV pushing, especially from the advocacy side. Opposite-side POV pushing happens occasionally too, but is quickly shut down. This ANI report was meant to focus on a particular case that became so severe I considered it reportable. But it isn't the only activism that occurs. Crossroads 20:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  From an empirical standpoint, I question your assertion that the POV pushing happens especially from the advocacy side, and that Opposite-side POV pushing happens but is quickly shut down. For example, on Talk:Graham Linehan you made one particular POV assertion here that you subsequently repeated precisely the same assertion here, here, here, and here with no more support than an illicit appeal to the colour of the sky, in spite of polite requests for some kind of justification in policy or precedent from several editors. If that is what your POV-pushing is like when it is "quickly shut down", Crossroads, I would hate to see it fully unleashed. Newimpartial (talk) 03:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  I'm glad you posted those because they show me rebutting your implausible POV assertion that "anti-transgender" is not value-laden such that WP:LABEL does not apply, you pushing to apply that label to a WP:BLP, and you baselessly equating me to white supremacists and the alt-right. Crossroads 03:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  No, they show you repeatedly asserting, without evidence or the agreement of most participants in the discussion, that "anti-transgender" is value-laden such that WP:LABEL applies. A previous RfC had affirmed that the section using "anti-transgender" in both the title and the body was appropriate for the article, and no noticeboard discussion has ever applied LABEL to "anti-transgender" or any other "anti-" label as far as I know. However, you did not even deign to rebut the previous discussion or address your novel interpretation of LABEL, but only made a BLUESKY argument while most participants in the discussion were not in agreement with you about the colour of the sky. I did not "equate you to white supremacists and the alt-right", I addressed the form of evidence-free argumentation you were using in that discussion and continue to use. Which rather illustrates my point that here at ANI you are engaged in continuing a content dispute by other means, although you do not see it this way because the arguments of those who disagree with you, no matter how well-sourced and policy-compliant they may be, simply do not fit your worldview so you dismiss them out of hand. Newimpartial (talk) 03:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  Nobody needs your characterization of the previous RfC. And anyway, my comments were at a new and much bigger RfC at which consensus can change. As for your last sentence, back at ya. Crossroads 04:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  Of course WP:LABEL applies. The entire purpose of the guideline is addressing such labels. Newimpartial appears to be engaging in the fallacy that the example terms listed there are an exhaustive list of those that qualify. It simply is not true, as even a few minutes on the guideline's talk page will show you. Proposals to add additional terms are almost always rejected, specifically because the examples are not an exhaustive list (which would just grow indefinitely), and the extant samples are already broad enough to get the point across (to everyone except Newimpartial and a few others, I guess). However, if someone wants to propose adding an example like "anti-transgender" (since the list doesn't include any "anti-foo" illustrations), I would support adding a new example for the first time in a long time. If a misinterpretation of guideline wording becomes recurrent, the solution is to write around the misinterpretation so that it stops recurring.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  SMcCandlish, this isn't the place to re-litigate the RfC, either, but I never made the straw man argument you just attributed to me, that the list in LABEL is somehow exhaustive. The argument I actually made is that "anti-x" labels are used in Wikivoice all the time, and that I didn't see any policy-relevant difference between "anti-transgender activism" and say "anti-black violence" or "anti-Jewish rhetoric". That was the argument made by myself and others at the RfC. Now it is fine for you to disagree, but it is not fine IMO for you to strawman the actual argument and then insist that there is some "silent majority" consensus about "anti-transgender activism" without providing evidence.

  But really, my point here is that SMcCandlish has not shown good judgement in this subject area since The Signpost fiasco, and that in spite of their superficially measured words, their perception of the actions of other editors in this subject area is deeply affected by what seems obvious to them based on their POV, a POV previously expressed in the current Graham Linehan RFC, as I recall. Newimpartial (talk) 11:39, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Please do not ping me about this comment. Strong oppose: "BLPs who have commented on transgender topics" is not clear enough to enforce (does Bastun have to research whether a BLP has ever spoken publicly about transness every time they edit a BLP on any topic?) and "all BLPs" is certainly unwarranted. Rather than suggesting a topic that would fit better, I will say that I do not see evidence that Bastun has behaved in a consistently reckless manner worthy of a topic ban. I do seem some protracted disputes, in which Bastun does engage in discussion. A number of the users participating in this discussion have engaged in similar ways but with opposite points of view, so it is not the conduct they are objecting to but the beliefs. Lilipo25 presents the situation of Graham Linehan incorrectly in that the section heading was not "Bastun's biased section heading" but a long-standing heading which has received support from many users. — Bilorv (talk) 17:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The section heading was originally "Controversies". It was created by OCuin on January 20, 2019 . You changed it to "Transgender Issues" two days later . It then went through a series of different headings ("Transgender Rights", "Transphobia", etc.) before Peter the Fourth first inserted the "Anti-Transgender Activism" heading . It was changed again numerous times after that by different editors ("Gender critical activism", "Anti-transgender activity", "POV", etc.) and on April 19, 2019, the heading was back to the one you put in: Transgender Issues. At that point, Bastun changed it back to "Anti-transgender activism" with an edit note declaring that to be "accurate and neutral" . Since then, as demonstrated above, Bastun has held control over the heading and reverted every change. While there are certainly those who support their wording, there are many who have not, and the RFC was unable to come to any kind of consensus. Lilipo25 (talk) 18:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

So your contention is that Bastun should be banned from an area because their contribution is the one that, after much discussion and debate, remains? The way you discuss this makes it clear you view the situation as a game of capture the flag. Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. Additionally, you have the facts wrong. I did not change the subject header. What I did was to insert a full stop in prose. Please do not say untruths about me again. I suggest you check your other comments for factual accuracy because the diff about me was literally the only one I opened and it does not say what you claim it does. — Bilorv (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

That is most definitely not my contention; I was trying to demonstrate that Bastun's edits on the example I used are not to an agreed-upon heading. But you are correct that I misread your edit and for that I apologise and will strike it through once I look up how to do that again, as I've forgotten. Lilipo25 (talk) 18:48, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Oppose t-ban: Bastun's edits and interactions with other editors on the JK Rowling page specifically appear to have been part of a completely ordinary content dispute. Crossroads' characterization of that dispute as sanctionable seems pretty dubious based on the timeline provided by Guy Macon above. However, it does seem, at least based on the evidence provided above, that Bastun has been pretty unreasonably combative on other pages. For this reason I'd support a warning and maybe an interaction ban, but a topic ban seems very poorly tailored to what actual misbehavior there is. Loki (talk) 17:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Support - I was mentioned above and I well remember the dumpster fire that Bastun (and some others, to be fair) presided over at Graham Linehan. I haven't been active at JK Rowling although I'm sure it's more of the same WP:NOTHERE, WP:UNCIVIL carry on. SMcCandlish summarises this unfortunate situation better than I can. I'd only add that I think part of the problem is that these 'advocates' work themselves up into a frenzy in their little online echo chambers on Twitter / forums etc. Think 'cancel culture', or online 'pile-on' tactics. Then when they come on here looking to do likewise - essentially bully and/or push unreality on us - they respond with incredulity and disproportionate hostility at those of us who are only looking to try and keep things encyclopedic. Unchecked it sometimes boils over into edit-warring, POV-pushing, coat-racking and so on, like it sadly has in Bastun's case. In fact unless Bastun can point to some sort of worthwhile contribution in other areas I wouldn't be averse to supporting a block rather than a topic ban. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  With regard to the preceding intervention, please see this remarkably self-aware comment by the same editor. Based on their own experience on this same issue at ANI, this looks to me like a pot::kettle situation, and the allegation that the allegation that these 'advocates' work themselves up into a frenzy in their little online echo chambers on Twitter / forums etc. Think 'cancel culture', or online 'pile-on' tactics. Then when they come on here looking to do likewise - essentially bully and/or push unreality on us must be regarded as unproven (without evidence) and set aside. Newimpartial (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  Ah, I see. Cancel culture is when you express your opinion on a topic, whereas opposition to cancel culture is when you forcibly prevent someone from expressing their opinion on a particular platform. Given your self-admission of not having done due diligence in research before making this comment, I trust the closer will give this as little weight as it warrants. — Bilorv (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: topic ban from J. K. Rowling. I'm discussing that article because I am familiar with the TG topic editing there. J. K. Rowling has increasingly made politically controversial comments about TG topics. It has now branched out into "cancel culture" vs. the rights of disenfranchised or oppressed groups to exercise their political power. Her fame has brought widespread coverage of the issues, and cherrypicking sources can badly distort the neutral view. It's a difficult topic. Editors bring opposing views, but when the editors have worked together there the article benefited. There are so many sources to sort through, the more editors doing good research the better. I would rather see a sanction on the article using zero reverts for a period, cautioning editors to achive consensus and WP:AGF rather than banning editors from the article. Ward20 (talk) 19:18, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban, support a 1RR restriction for all editors on Rowling-related and Linehan-related articles (Non-administrator comment) (At least not yet 😛) This discussion seems to be a proxy fight about how Misplaced Pages should cover JK Rowling. That fight is best conducted on article talk pages. WanderingWanda (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, based on the totality of diffs provided in the thread above (which took half an hour to read through; I would like my time back >.> ), I don't think a topic ban would be appropriate at this time, though I do think the editor in question (and editors in general) should be reminded to avoid being confrontational or becoming heated in discussions of these topics. (I am troubled by the extent to which comments in support of or opposition to such a ban seem to line up with the commenters' opinions with regard to the content on transgender topics, and in general, as another commenter touched on, by the amount of battleground-ing that goes on in multiple directions in this topic area.) -sche (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose: As per Bilorv, Loki, Ward20 and others. This is rushed as I am packing and travelling the next few days. Everyone knows that JK Rowling has made a number of highly controversial political statements about Trans People. All Misplaced Pages Editors including Crossroads and Bastun have a political view points: when the are strong opposing views, things can get a little heated, both sides have been equally combative. I have not seen any clear evidence of consistent poor behaviour by Bastun towards other editors, Bastun has simply engaged in the discussion from a different political standpoint from Crossroads. As a trans person myself I am very grateful that I see at least one other editor is standing up for a minority group and against discrimination both intentional and unintentional, and the overal systemic bias that naturally exist in Misplaced Pages. Bastun's interactions with other editors in the protracted disputes on the JK Rowling articles has been part of a completely normal content dispute in a contenious area. The is no solid evidence that Bastun has espicially behaved in a Un-Wikipedian like manner to warrant any topic ban whatsoever. I agree also with WanderingWanda that this appears to be a proxy fight about how Misplaced Pages should cover JK Rowling. That fight is indeed best conducted on article talk pages. ~ BOD ~ 21:05, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: We need more uninvolved, unbiased commenters. So far all of the support and oppose !votes are from people who are in some way involved, either editing the Rowling articles directly, or else heavily involved in transgender related articles. As -sche stated, there is the extent to which comments in support of or opposition to such a ban seem to line up with the commenters' opinions with regard to the content on transgender topics. Crossroads 21:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Who is going to get involved, if they are not already, in such a bitter, vitriolic, hate filled topic area? I only notice it when it appears on one of these boards, I am staying far away. Admins really need to take some action to make the topic area one uninvolved editors feel comfortable participating in. Smeat75 (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

This, I think, is really the important question. 1RR limits seem to help (q.v. Terf and what might help even more would be an approach to relevant, reliable sources (or even basic evidential standards) more in line with the rest of the project (the constant re-hashing of issues on Talk:Trans woman is exemplary here).

And some of those frequently INVOLVED in related discussions - notably Crossroads, Pyxis Solitary, Bastun and myself - have a tendency to become dismissive or waspish in these discussions. Additional efforts at civility (and avoidance of microagressions) might go a long way. Newimpartial (talk) 22:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, the editors "re-hashing" issues at Talk:Trans woman are not the editors here. It's not those of us interested in neutrality repeatedly complaining there. It's new users. Crossroads 03:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

While that is true, I would venture that a respect for evidence and process over self-certainty and personal conviction would make an improvement to the discussion at Talk:Graham Linehan just as much as it would at Talk:Trans woman. Newimpartial (talk) 03:25, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

"And some of those frequently INVOLVED in related discussions - notably ... Pyxis Solitary ...." If there's one thing I've stayed away from for a long time, is being involved in the editing of trans-related matters. Editing trans-related subjects is a snake pit. As for becoming involved in a discussion such as this one, well ... that's one of the privileges granted to all Misplaced Pages editors. Now, I know from experience that you're into baiting and turning discussions into arguments. But I just want to assure you that whatever cork you blow after this, I have more productive things to do than to respond to anything you have to say to me. Don't spit in the wind. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 09:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

And there it is. Newimpartial (talk) 11:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: First... Regarding votes aligning with editors' POVs. My "support" vote is not about any personal POV I have on trans issues. I only saw this thread because I looked at Crossroads's contributions. And editors have noted that I do look to follow Misplaced Pages's WP:Neutral policy and other rules on these (and other) topics. Second, except for one or two others who may have followed Crossroads, it appears to me that WP:Canvassing has taken place. I could understand if certain editors voting "oppose" frequented ANI, or this thread about Bastun was posted at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, Talk:J. K. Rowling, or Talk:Politics of J. K. Rowling (although it shouldn't be). But for a number of editors involved with trans topics to show up here out of the blue, and when a couple of them haven't been editing frequently lately (such as being absent from Misplaced Pages for two days)? No. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

  To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest anything like "both sides are POV and equally bad". It's not like that. The evidence - actual evidence - speaks for itself as to what is neutrality and what is activism, and it is also clear what is supported by evidence and what is based on ignoring evidence. Crossroads 03:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  That CANVASSING accusation is so oblique that I can't really tell who is being accused of canvassing or being canvassed, but I will volunteer that I followed Crossroads's contribution history here, like a normal person. I have studiously stayed away from Talk:Politics of J. K. Rowling, but when I saw what was going on here I had a feeling there was a desire to replicate the Talk:Graham Linehan RfC, which is not even closed - and I certainly do not seem to have been mistaken in that apprehension. If editors are going to use one-sided behavioural accusations (accusations not accompanied by a degree of self-awareness) to gain an advantage in content disputes - which certainly seems to be the case with Crossroads here - it should not be surprising that the potential targets of such strategies become wise to them. Newimpartial (talk) 02:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  I do not normally watch this noticeboard, who does? Like other editors on both sides of this current dispute i was simply mentioned on this very page, so I came, nothing more. I am extremely saddened to find that some very experienced editors seem to be playing Misplaced Pages politics here, to shut down (or to induce doubt about) fair and reasonable contributions of opposing editors and viewpoints. ~ BOD ~ 05:30, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose: per User:Bodney. Bastun is simply an avid editor, a trait encouraged by wp:bold. It's normal to have disagreements followed by some reversions on controversial topics. At least from that editor's part, the confrontation of different points of view is being maintained healthy, productive, and is helping to improve the articles mentioned here. There's nothing out of ordinary on your accusatory diffs. We can see that Bastun is very active on talk pages; edit history of articles show that that editor frequently avoids escalating unproductive edit-wars, turning those into talk page discussions and subsequently abiding by established consensuses. daveout 03:35, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Another highly involved editor whose defense is founded upon denial. Crossroads 04:17, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
    • To be fair, I also think that your contributions have a positive side to them and that they are helping to improve those articles (in a way). But those "evidences" you are bringing here simply aren't grievous enough in order to justify banning someone. They look like just any other editorial dispute (honestly). Suppressing disagreeing voices isn't the way to go. daveout 06:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Question of Scope

The evidence-based discussion here has been largely confined to the (highly sensitive) J.K. Rowling article, but those seeking sanctions have suggested a much broader scope for a topic-ban. Is there evidence from any other page suggesting that problems extend beyond the single page? Newimpartial (talk) 10:48, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes. A great deal of my evidence has to do with the Politics of J. K. Rowling article. But Rowling isn't the only BLP either. My 8th bullet point (second to last) clearly stated, regarding another BLP. That is the Graham Linehan BLP. Lilipo25's comment also specifically referred to that page. Clearly the issue is with BLPs generally who have commented on transgender topics. Crossroads 13:25, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I had wondered if there were a desire here to re-litigate the Graham Linehan article text; if so, I would direct interested admins to Talk:Graham Linehan, particularly the ongoing (?) RfC at that location. I have seen some dubious accusations there, but no actual problems with Bastun's editing on that page. But I would encourage everyone to review the evidence for themselves.

As far as "clearly the issue is with BLPs generally who have commented on transgender topics", that is the question I was asking in opening this section: is it? So far I have seen mention of one other page, and a rather minute examination of its edit history hasn't shown me any inappropriate editing on the part of Bastun. But I would be happy to look at anything I missed. Newimpartial (talk) 14:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial should not be at this discussion. They were warned by El C: Newimpartial, you should not have responded to Lilipo25, anywhere, for any reason. Monopoly of pages or discussions do not usually accompany an WP:IBAN. If you address Lilipo again you risk imminent sanctions. There is unlikely to be another warning about that (should be taken as a final warning). Above you can see clearly they are effectively responding to/addressing Lilipo25. It is a case of mak reference to or comment on each other anywhere on Misplaced Pages...indirectly. They obviously saw where Lilipo25 talked about the Graham Linehan page - there was no need to ask about evidence beyond the Rowling page. Newimpartial's I have seen some dubious accusations there is also a backhanded reference. Sure seems like a violation of El C's clear direction to me. Crossroads 18:19, 30 July 2020 (UTC) expanded Crossroads 18:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Crossroads, I have not addressed Lilipo in any way in this discussion, upon due consideration of El C's comment. I have been very careful to do so. I have responded to comments by three highly INVOLVED editors in this ANI report: yourself, SMcCandlish, and Daz. I am not under any form of topic ban or Iban, and as El C said above, Monopoly of pages or discussions do not usually accompany an WP:IBAN, even if there were one. So it seems to me that a BOOMERANG sanction for Wikilawyering may be appropriate here; it reminds me of the time Crossroads flagged me for a (dubious) 1RR violation in reprisal after I refrained from reporting them for a clear 1RR vio, opting instead to a notice on their Talk Page. GAMING the system really ought to be taken seriously at ANI, IMO.

And the policy-relevant consideration I raised was whether there was a basis to extend the proposed sanction to Bilorv beyond the J.K. Rowling articles. You mentioned the Graham Linehan page, and so I asked whether there was an intention to re-litigate the current RfC at Talk:Graham Linehan, without naming names or casting aspersions. It seems pretty clear that there you do intend to re-litigate, in which case I would point to this 2019 RfC, the one that brought Daz to his aforementioned "up before the beaks" and which you, Crossroads, have introduced POV edits to overturn (q.v. slow motion edit war) without any Talk page resolution, almost as of you did not accept the result of the 2019 RfC. Newimpartial (talk) 19:18, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

If you are not technically under an IBAN then I am in the wrong about that, but El C's language is clear regardless. But anyone inclined to believe Newimpartial's version of events should check their links. Yes, I did report you for a 1RR violation within 26 instead of 24 hours, as WP:GAMING, and for which you were warned by El C who considered it a violation. My supposed violation of 1RR, as I said there, involved two completely separate edits involving content by different people. As for the 2019 RfC about Graham Linehan, I don't remember ever hearing about it before, although maybe I forgot, and was not aware of it for those edits. In any case, it does not appear to be about the heading itself.

As for "INVOLVED", readers should know that Newimpartial is in no way an uninvolved, unbiased observer. We have debated each other for ages. And despite their nom-de-plume they are in no way impartial on LGBT matters. Check their contribs and the above discussions. Crossroads 19:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to clarify that I was up before the beaks on a completely unrelated matter (for which I was exonerated). During that kerfuffle I had to apologise and redact an instance where I'd mistakenly used the word 'transvestite' and inadvertently caused some offence. It was totally unintentional but unfortunately was portrayed as evidence of my bad character, which I obviously regretted. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 20:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

In the aforementioned Rowling BLP noticeboard discussion, Bodney repeatedly used the word transsexual even though so many trans people object to it. So you're forgiven. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I normally see myself as me, sometimes as a woman, sometimes third gender, an individual, but also as a transsexual woman who was bullied out of job and became homeless I was rescued by a women only charity and given shelter for two years in a shared single sex female only accommodation, four years of single sex group counselling and support. After my sheltered housing, they rehoused me permanently. That is why I was interested in that BLP RfC because Rowling is tying to bring to an end the very same safety net that came to my own rescue. I am not sure what is your objection to me using the term transsexual? ~ BOD ~ 06:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Bodney, I did not state that I object to you using the term transsexual. I stated that "many trans people object to ." This is made clear in both the Transgender and Transsexual articles. It's made clear by IPs and registered editors (especially newbies) removing the term transsexual as offensive (or, as some of them say, "outdated") and replacing it with transgender, including in cases involving people who identify as transsexual...such as Buck Angel. It's made clear by various other cases. It's often that when people use the term transsexual, they are accused of bigotry and/or ignorance. Never mind the fact that the person using it may be transgender. So I do avoid that term unless the text on Misplaced Pages calls for it, such as a person who identifies that way or researchers using that term to specify a type of transgender person. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Crossroads, how can you still insist even now that you were in the right about the matter discussed here? WP:3RR reads An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page—whether involving the same or different material—within a 24-hour period (emphasis added). Nobody should let their battleground tendencies overcome their respect for process and consensus, and consensus about process. Newimpartial (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Show me the diffs. Were they even reverts? Even if it were a violation, I made a mistake in good faith and had said I would have self-reverted. You, on the other hand, have twice gamed the system by reverting twice within 26 hours on a 1RR page (1st time: 2nd time: ), been warned by an administrator as a result, been blocked for edit warring, and just earned a one-way IBAN. "Battleground tendencies". You are not in a position to condescend to me about anything. Crossroads 21:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

This edit and this edit were made 12 minutes apart, in a 1RR page, and are both labelled as reverts. Are you questioning your own edit summaries? And you know why I was so well aware that 3RR/1RR can be violated without reverting the same material? Because that's what I was blocked for. I learned my lesson from that, thanks. How does your "mistake in good faith" argument now fit with your "supposed violation" comment two hours earlier? Either you have learned from your mistake or you haven't, and honesty and directness are better approaches than defensiveness and deflection, IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 22:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

As far as the edit war warning and the (very recent) 1-way IBAN are concerned, they are both cases that you filed/instigated and were both placed by the same admin. And since you want to talk about GAMING, this is clearly GAMING, as well as a misreading of the Talk page discussion that it repeatedly distorts through selective quotation. Newimpartial (talk) 22:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I was pinged by Crossroads in the above comment. I didn't even bother reporting this, even though I can see it is meant as a reply to me, because the user was careful to avoid addressing me directly. But they also went through my User Talk page to find comments to use against Bring back Daz Sampson, below, so I did report that to El C. Thanks. Lilipo25 (talk) 18:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment So I'm in work today, then travelling with just my phone until Tuesday (it's a bank holiday in Ireland), and likely patchy coverage. I will be responding, but not substantively until next week. What I would say in the meantime is:

a) Anyone commenting here needs to have read the Linehan RfC in full (yeah, sorry), and in particular this contribution, which addressed most of Lilipo's points from above, almost a month ago.

b) Yes, WP:BOOMERANG is a thing. I had been wondering about the merits of seeking a tban for Crossroads from the Rowling articles, as they seemed determined to remove or minimise anything that could be deemed negative, citing WP:NOTNEWS and WP:UNDUE, and to include or highlight anything that could be deemed positive, for quite some time. I hadn't gotten around to anything like recording diffs or quotes, but a scan of the talk pages Talk:J. K. Rowling and Talk:Politics of J. K. Rowling will show what I mean. E.g., I include coverage of two of the largest HP fansites, MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, jointly announcing that they would no longer link to the Rowling's website, use photos of her, or write about achievements outside her HP fiction; this gets reverted as WP:NOTNEWS. Similarly, removal of mention of The Trevor Project from the Politics of... article; removal of mention of a U.S. Senator quoting her essay prior to a vote (NOTNEWS, apparently, and a strawman about inferences); arguing against inclusion of mention of the Stephen King issue, because NOTNEWS. Yet, at an RfC at the BLP noticeboard, the same user proposes including mention of support from Dana International (suddenly NOTNEWS doesn't apply?); and, at the Politcs article again, adds a new section on the fact that Rowling was one of 150 signatories of an open letter - while debate was ongoing. Again, NOTNEWS and UNDUE stopped applying?

So there's that, and that too needs to be considered by the community. I would point out the absolute irony of championing that particular open letter, on the one hand, and attempted cancel culture of someone whose views you don't agree with, on the other.

c) Crossroads mentioned quite a few editors. I'd be interested in hearing from some, too, involved in the Rowling and Linehan pages, who may or may not be aware of this particular AN/I, and may or may not wish to comment on my and/or Crossroads' editing: YuvalNehemia; Licks-rocks; -sche; Bodney; Ward20; Bilorv; Wikiditm; JzG. Bastun 17:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

(Thanks for the ping; ironically, I posted above in the exact same minute as you, requesting no further pings to this discussion. No harm done but pretty amusing timing.) — Bilorv (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

And all of those things ended up in the article anyway. I followed WP:BRD and accepted when consensus was against me. And many other things, especially lately, I have not reverted, even though it's a continual pile-on of negative material. WP:NOTNEWS is a valid argument and WP:ONUS does favor discussion before inclusion. And those discussions show I was not alone in my views. For example, regarding the US Senator, inclusion was opposed by Zedembee, Autumnking2012, and others. Much the same views were expressed by many at the RfC at BLPN, including by SMcCandlish, CactusJack, and Zaereth, about limiting excessive ephemeral Twitter drama. I mean, nobody's perfect, but we're not going to have a false balance between me and you. I made every effort to follow policy. Trying to prevent POV pushing is not the same as actual POV pushing and advocacy. I am all for WP:Due and substantive criticism of Rowling. My comments and discussion behavior shows that. Crossroads 17:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Crossroads, I don't mean to intrude, but your claim that you make every effort to follow policy is somewhat undermined when you have engaged in a slow edit war to reverse the outcome of a previous RfC without any kind of mandate to do so from a new RfC. Newimpartial (talk) 19:25, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't mean to intrude - you clearly do. Where does that previous RfC discuss the heading itself? Where was I made aware of it before I made those edits? I did not willfully reverse any RfC. False accusations don't reflect well at ANI. Crossroads 19:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The consensus is that the "Anti-transgender activity" section is fine in its current form was the RfC close. That is quite clearly includes the section title, including the term "anti-transgender" that was discussed in the RfC. As far as your not being made aware of it, BastunAutumn King referred to the this edit - which was on the Talk page before your edit warring and is still on the Talk page now - explicitly acknowledged that the editor in question changed a section title. I now realise that this last action was counter to a Talk page discussion, for which I apologise. No, the word RfC wasn't used in that case, and I didn't use it when I referred back to the same consensus, but it isn't my referring to a previous discussion as "an RfC" that makes it one, or that makes Edit Warring against it against policy. Newimpartial (talk) 20:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Obvious WP:WIKILAWYERing. The RfC never discussed the heading itself, nor did the closure specifically mention it. When it was referred to here (actually by Autumnking2012), on 6 June, I never read that discussion; I didn't join the talk page until 2 weeks later, here, at a higher discussion that had picked up again. And as for this, you never even linked it. So, no, I am not at fault for going against an RfC I did not know about and that did not address the heading. Crossroads 20:50, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry; I have now corrected the name of the actual author of the diff, above.

It seems obvious to me that the close, The consensus is that the "Anti-transgender activity" section is fine in its current form, includes the section heading itself; the RfC did explicitly discuss the appropriateness of the term "anti-transgender" in the text, which was the object of your edit warring on the article (as well as your BLUDGEON and IDONTHEARTHAT in the current RfC). So I'm not sure that "I was unaware that the previous discussion people keep referring to was actually an RfC" provided a valid justification for the slow edit war. Newimpartial (talk) 21:10, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions?

• May 2020 ANI thread
• July 2020 ANI thread
• Thread on my talk page
• Fred Sargeant talk page thread
• Bastun's talk page thread

Let me start for apologising for what will be a lengthy post - I feel it is necessarily so. I also want to stress that in writing it, I am accusing nobody of acting in bad faith, but I do think that there is some seriously problematic editing going on in this topic area.

I have been taken part in a number of discussions involving some of the editors mentioned and commenting in this thread. Some of them are noted above, but there have probably been others that don't jump so readily to mind. I've come to the conclusion that there are some issues that seem to make editing in this area particularly contentious, and make it difficult for some editors to truly follow the old WP:AGF maxim; discussions often become uncivil rapidly, quickly descending into sarcasm, personal commentary and accusations of improper conduct. There are numerous examples in the threads I've posted above, and many more can be found by checking the contributions histories of some of those commenting here.

I don't pretend to be in a position to comment on why some people find it so hard to collaborate constructively in this area with people who they disagree with. I think that Bodney's moving explanation above about how they came to edit J. K. Rowling is interesting though. I don't intend to single Bodney out for criticism here, but if an editor is coming to a BLP because the subject has spoken out on an issue that is so close to the editor's heart, I think that it would inevitably be exceedingly difficult to avoid editing, unconsciously perhaps, with a RGW attitude, and it would perhaps be unusually difficult to see avoid seeing editors who are coming from a different viewpoint as being 'enemies', rather than collaborators.

I'm not sure that a topic ban for Bastun would do anything to solve the over-arching problems here; I wonder whether a more widespread approach is needed. BLPs are already covered by discretionary sanctions, which might need to be enforced more actively in this area, but I'm not sure whether that is in itself sufficient. Here is an example of Newimpartial telling an editor with whom they disagree that they are talking out of their arse. That sort of confrontational approach is not civil, it is a barrier to effective collaboration, but it is not on a BLP talk page. I'm starting to wonder whether 'Transgender issues' needs to be covered by its own discretionary sanctions, targeted at enforcing civility and cooperation. I'd welcome others' views on that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Girth Summit (talk • contribs) 10:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit it is OK I have no personal WP:RGW issues :) (I expect that will now be held against me for ever), prior to the current Rowling disputes i have done comparatively minor and infrequent amount of editing on trans issues (https://xtools.wmflabs.org/topedits/en.wikipedia.org/Bodney/1 ) I am in fact passionate about all civil liberties and Human Rights, and I simply support the standing up against inequality & discrimination everywhere. Should anyone of any 'minority' be banned from taking part in articles that affect them, should Jewish or Muslim editors be banned from topics to do with their faiths or the Middle East, black editors from black lives matter etc , female editors from feminism etc, differently abled people be banned from issues relating to their impairment, .... etc etc I really do not think so. Its also one sided, every single editor who contributes to wikipedia everyone has their own political bias, both sides (and more sides) all have biases, but we all try to be neutral. If we removed everyone who spoke in support of a minority just because they might be linked to that minority, Misplaced Pages would be left with an enormous systemic bias. What matters is how we act. ~ BOD ~ 16:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Bodney, I certainly hope you didn't get the impression that I was saying that trans people shouldn't edit trans articles - that is very far from my position. I was speculating on why it is such a contentious area, and I thought your comments might shed some light on that. Having said that, I would observe that the distinction between 'speaking in support of a minority', and 'righting great wrongs', is subtle. We're not here to advocate for any position, we aim to be genuinely neutral. If one has strong feelings about something, one might be well advised to avoid it as an editing interest. I do not direct this at you, and I have not looked into your contribs in detail - it's a general observation, not a criticism. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:29, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Discretionary sanctions are desirable, although as you said, BLP sanctions are already available. The problem however is that a group of motivated activists can manipulate Misplaced Pages in order to portray their favored version of history and the small number of neutral editors can be overwhelmed, as seen above. I support community general sanctions for transgender topics per Girth Summit. Johnuniq (talk) 10:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• I strongly agree that topic-specific DS are desirable. I have definitely had my lapses, which usually come late in a long interaction with editors who violate editing and/or talk page norms, as illustrated by the diff provided by Girth Summit above (the editor I addressed was banned for edit warring before the comment was made, as it turns out, but I shouldn't have let them get to me).
• So I do think that more active enforcement of WP:NPA in this area would help, but this should also address the persistent tendency for editors in this area to engage in civil POV disputes, complete with moving goalposts and Lucy's football, and also the remarkably consistent WP:IDONTHEARTHAT behavior whereby editors refuse to condescend to provide evidence (whether diffs or sources or whatever) because of course their position is self-evidently correct. Strawman arguments and slippery slope fallacies thrive in this environment and make policy-based consensus almost impossible to achieve. Newimpartial (talk) 11:53, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oh, and I also wanted to sincerely thank Girth Summit and anyone else who reads these difficult talk pages in order to comment on this ANI filing. It can't be easy to go through Talk:Trans woman, Talk:Graham Linehan, or for that matter the ongoing PinkNews RSN discussion, and I salute anyone with the stomach for it. I mean, I can't take more than a peek at Politics of J. K. Rowling discussions (or even edit summaries) before scurrying away like a timorous beastie, so I wish well to all who manage to bring fresh eyes to bear. Newimpartial (talk) 12:25, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• I support discretionary sanctions for all articles that deal with transgender issues.WP:UNCIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:HOUNDING violations are out of control and have been for some time. The most aggressive editors work as a bloc to overwhelm any others who attempt to make pages adhere to WP:NPOV. I have confidence that the admins will recognize any offenders who might attempt to manipulate them and will deal with rule violations consistently. Lilipo25 (talk) 13:26, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit, it is already covered by WP:ARBGG, so you are already authorized to apply the discretionary sanctions as you see fit. El_C 13:30, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

El C, that's interesting - I hadn't realised that gamergate discretionary sanctions were interpreted that broadly, but looking at it again I see that it covers any gender-related dispute or controversy. If you are confident that it would be uncontroversial to apply GG in content disputes over transgender issues, I will bear that in mind for the future.

Newimpartial, Lilipo25 your comments directly above kind of underline the point that I was making. I am certain that stuff like what you describe does happen - but too many people in these debates lose their trust in other people far too quickly, and start seeing everyone who disagrees with them as part of an opposing side, and seem to end up assuming that anyone disagreeing with them is guilty of things like civil POV pushing, failure to hear whatever, hounding when they turn up at related articles, etc. WP:OFWV really is worth reading, and trying to abide by - especially when interacting with people you disagree with. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit, I'm confident. In fact, I have just invoked ARBGG to sanction Newimpartial yesterday with a one-way interaction ban with Lilipo. El_C 14:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I am still not entirely clear how this sequence of events merits this outcome, but I suppose discretionary sanctions means not having to say you're sorry. Newimpartial (talk) 14:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think this sort of innuendo is to your credit, Newimpartial. I recognize venting, but you are not doing yourself any favours by engaging the imposition of your sanction in this manner. El_C 22:27, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The I-BAN has has been ruled upon by an experienced admin. Misplaced Pages has legitimate avenues for appeals if that's what is desired. I would love some peace on that front. Lilipo25 (talk) 16:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment (as original filer) I think that in any case, the BLP discretionary sanctions need to be enforced more actively in this area. It would help a great deal. The POV pushers in this area often fall into BLP violations. But the issues go beyond BLPs, and yes, there is already the GG/gender DS too. Yes, there is much incivility. Yes, the problems seem to come from WP:RGW behavior. As Johnuniq said, "The problem however is that a group of motivated activists can manipulate Misplaced Pages in order to portray their favored version of history and the small number of neutral editors can be overwhelmed". And there is so much WP:SEALIONing, but not by the group Newimpartial thinks. It is hard to even try to get these issues handled, because WP:TENDENTIOUS editing is partisan, biased or skewed taken as a whole. It does not conform to the neutral point of view..., and this is hard to prove with diffs. And then when a report is made, one can see above the denial, closing of ranks, whataboutism, and by one editor in particular, use of the WP:BLUDGEON against the filer (me). Crossroads 14:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC) clarified Crossroads 14:55, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  From over here, the problem looks different. There are RfCs held, to establish the consensus or policy-compliant version, and then people with a strong sense of subjective certainty (SMcCandlish is paradigmatic in this regard) arrive, completely prepared to ignore consensus, RGW as they perceive them conforming to NPOV according to themselves, without the modest accessories of sources or evidence. The arrivals then engage only superficially in Talk Page discussion, or edit war, or FORUMSHOP or just engage in skewed editing from their own POV. I am (have been, in fact) the first to admit that there are civility violations on all sides, but as long as "one side" is convinced that the "other" is engaged in RGW and they alone are the guardians of NPOV (a kind of NPOV so deeply understood that it doesn't need sources or evidence), it is difficult and frustrating to move forward with these articles. Newimpartial (talk) 14:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

But those of us trying to hold the centre ground are not the obverse of the POV-pushers. We have an influx of editors simply looking to bash Graham Linehan or J.K. Rowling etc. because they have an axe to grind with them and think they are "TERFs". Then we appear to have another group of editors who, like me, have no strong emotional attachment to trans issues but just see a real mess being made of Misplaced Pages articles. I only waded in because I remembered some of Linehan's comedy and noticed his article had been distorted into an attack page with several other glaring issues. It's also true that the problems at these pages do run much deeper than you and Bastun, although you have undoubtedly been consistently among the worst culprits. If I had strong emotions around hating some celebrity or pushing some other sort of controversial positions I'd probably keep away from them on Misplaced Pages to be honest. Experience tells me that it will only end one way, and ultimately no amount of whataboutery or off-Wiki canvassing will change that. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 16:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The thing is, Daz, I have nothing against Graham Linehan; I have nothing against J. K. Rowling; I have nothing against Fred Sargeant. In the latter two cases, I hold real respect for their early work. In the case of Linehan, I don't know his work, and I literally had not heard of him until his 2019 fiasco on Trans issues.

But when you did these POV edits followed by this over-the-top comment on Linehan, well, your perception that you have no strong emotional attachment to trans issues seems misleading. Your idea of BALANCE in the currently existing RS commentary on Linehan just seems to be off, and your edit-warring last year to remove the section on the issues for which he is now best known is, in fact, a version of RGW thinking, even if you can't see it in yourself. That isn't the "centre ground", man, and we can only base an assessment of NPOV on sourced discussion, not on feelings. Newimpartial (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Daz, please do not claim that you are trying to hold the center against POV pushers when you replaced a whole section of the Graham Linehan article with a single NPOV sentence that describes his critics as "censoring" him, and then when the ensuing RfC turned overwhelmingly against your edit you called your opponents "transvestite activists".

To be honest, I have been very frustrated by this rhetorical gambit from multiple people on multiple trans-related articles. For some reason, people making edits which a reasonable person might describe as "opposed to trans activists" insist that they have no agenda, but have no problem accusing people making edits that they see as "in support of trans activists" of POV-pushing. But that's not true. Everyone is trying to improve these articles, including the people you disagree with. The people who are trying to add examples of anti-trans activism to Graham Linehan's page aren't doing so because they are pushing a POV, they are doing it because it is heavily documented in reliable sources. If the people who were claiming they were "neutral" had free reign of these articles, they would be worse: heavily POV and discounting many statements from many reliable sources. Loki (talk) 17:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

In fact, when that happens, we get "balanced" versions like this. Newimpartial (talk) 17:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

More whataboutery and finger pointing. This was a genuine attempt at WP:SOFIXIT to a single article, more than a year ago. Contrary to what you have written here there was no edit warring on my part, and the 'examples' of supposedly POV edits you've cherrypicked are pretty lame too. Contrary to what you are suggesting I took the result of that RfC on the chin and walked away. I have never been active at any of these other articles which you all descended upon. No wonder you're currently subject to interaction bans if you go about making these sort of unfounded aspersions! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:29, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

When we are talking about TENDENTIOUS editing that does not conform to the neutral point of view..., I think we have to consider specific, representative cases or descend into mudslinging or caricature. Thoughtful consideration of cases is not what WHATABOUTISM is. Section blanking with POV insertion in the midst of an RfC is not a "cherrypicked" example, it is a key one in terms of policy, as I thought you understood since to my knowledge you have not repeated the gesture. Newimpartial (talk) 17:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

You don't seem too worried about descending into mudslinging and caricature - it seems to be your stock-in-trade. I'm glad you seem to have dropped your incorrect allegations of edit warring though. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

It is still edit warring even if you don't break 3RR; you reinstated both your template tag and your section blank after reverts. But those are just facts Newimpartial (talk) 18:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

That isn't edit warring. Given your own long and happy liaison with edit-warring (and other WP:BATTLEGROUND antics) I might have expected you to know the difference! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 18:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

people making edits which a reasonable person might describe as "opposed to trans activists" insist that they have no agenda, but have no problem accusing people making edits that they see as "in support of trans activists" of POV-pushing. There's an irony in how editors who like to go on and on about their own "neutrality" and their hatred of "activism" are very likely to be partisan. If you (and here I'm speaking generally) have a dog-eared copy of a RadFem book about how "transwomen" are "erasing" "real women" on your bedside, and if you can't stub your toe without angrily accusing the coffee table of being a "transgender activist", you probably aren't quite as neutral as you make yourself out to be. WanderingWanda (talk) 19:59, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Shout out to Talk: Lesbian erasure. The page is aggressively archived, but there is some good material here for those who want to see frustrated editors talking past each other. Newimpartial (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

WanderingWanda, I'm going to be honest here - I have no idea what your post is about, or who you are referring to. Please either be clear about the point you are making, or refrain from commenting. Thanks GirthSummit _(blether) 22:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

31.208.20.48

• 31.208.20.48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I first noticed this IP's suspicious behavior after they made their first edits to The Fandom over an hour after I had created it. After looking through their contributions, this appears to be a long-term problem, with various disruptive violations of WP:ELNO and WP:REDNOT. User has refused to discuss. Jalen Folf (talk) 07:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

23.120.104.213

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The editor using the IP 23.120.104.213 removed description (here of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an antisemitic forgery with an edit summary opinion language. This is an encyclopedia not a jewish propaganda site on the article Nesta Helen Webster. The user also vandalised Whiteness studies to change the lead sentence here to begin Whiteness studies is the racist study of the imaginary structures that produce white privilege to make excuses for the poor performance and inherent intellectual abilities of minorities. The rest of the IP's edits consist of quickly-reverted unsourced additions to BLPs identifying their families as Jewish.

It feels pretty clear that the editor is single-purpose, tendentious, racist and antisemitic. (Apologies if I've reported this on the wrong board!) Ralbegen (talk) 09:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Blocked. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:21, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Socionics

Socionics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

There are attempts to remove classification as pseudoscience from very reliable sources , , . There is a long-running conflict over socionics in the Russian Misplaced Pages. Almost all supporters of socionics were permanently blocked. --Q Valda (talk) 15:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Here are two editors that remove RS: ThesariusQ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) , Sounderk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — they seem like sock- or meatpuppetry (like in ru-wiki) intended for violation of WP:3RR rule. --Q Valda (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Q Valda, can you link to the blocked accounts on ru-wiki? Seeing that they are blocked and why would help your case. But yes, the two accounts you link to here are WP:SPAs, and ThesariusQ especially looks like a sockpuppet (if not that, a meatpuppet), in terms of appearing out of nowhere when needed. Crossroads 16:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
    • Blocked accounts of socionics supporters:
      • ru:Участница:Валентина Мегедь
      • ru:Участник:Женя Гавриленко
      • ru:Участник:Smyslovik
      • ru:Участник:Murad250977777
      • ru:Участник:Gennadiy Frolov
      • ru:Участник:Staruwkastarik
      • ru:Участник:RVR246
      • ru:Участник:Aleksandr Bukalov
      • ru:Участница:Юлиана лемешева
      • ru:Участник:Prolisock
      • ru:Участник:Irdims
      • ru:Участник:Prometeus-Z
      • ru:Участник:Gelios1
      • ru:Участник:Olly k2
    • --Q Valda (talk) 17:14, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Two more editors with the same modus operandi: Igor RD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) , and anonym – – . --Q Valda (talk) 21:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC) and one more Echidna1000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --Q Valda (talk) 08:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

It's worth noting that Gennadiy Frolov has the exact same userpage formatting as ThesariusQ with the weird sub-heading with the username, I think it's clear that they are the same user. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:33, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

QuantumBorg edits are completely identical to the edits of Q Valda in ru-wiki ,,,. Later Q Valda took part in the editing of the Socionics article and restored the QuantumBorg version . Тhey seem like sock- or meatpuppetry.--ThesariusQ (talk) 13:21, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

QuantumBorg edited exactly once on the 14th. Q Valda has previously edited the article in 2018, and resumed recently on the 29th. I don't see the problem there - as opposed to the pro-fringe editors who all rotated in and out in the course of a day to game the WP:3RR rule. - MrOllie (talk) 13:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The connection between Q Valda and QuantumBorg is obvious.QuantumBorg made these non-consensual edits, and Q Valda defended them in Enwiki. This was the cause of the edit war.--ThesariusQ (talk) 13:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Persistent personal attacks and aspersions

ThymeCypher (talk · contribs) has been attacking me and casting aspersions about myself non-stop at Talk:2020 United States presidential election and other places for the whole day, and has continued to do so despite being asked to stop.

• Our first interaction was this edit where he accused me of "owning" the page because of reverting a non-consensuated edit of theirs (this revertion, btw, was in violation of the discretionary sanctions currently in force in post-1932 US election articles—namely, 1RR and the requirement to seek consensus before reinstating any edit that has been challenged—as it followed a previous revert of theirs to another user on the same content). Note that there is an ongoing RfC on the issue, so it's all but obvious that no one can make these kind of edits until a consensus arises and the RfC is closed (this was pointed out to them by other users as well ), and it's literally stated everywhere that you can even get blocked for doing so.
• I pointed this to them in their talk page, which was replied with a full-blown attack barrage both at their talk page (first by accusing me of "insulting" other users without any evidence to back it up ) as well as in the referred article's talk page (launching generic accusations of "voter suppression" and "media manipulation" before directly dubbing me a bully ; it's also implied that this comment of theirs, where they say one specific user is responsible for an absolute s**tshow of attacks, was in reference to me as well).
• I took it to their talk page where I demanded them to source where my alleged "insults" were and pointing out to them about the notices on the discretionary sanctions (), but I was replied with further unproven aspersions (such as that I was continuing to boast about long and bountiful contributions to the site , and further unproven claims that I was "insulting" and "threatening" others ).

• I repeteadly warned and asked this user to either stop these claims or bring them with proper evidence here to ANI, to no avail ( ). I also pointed out the concerning fact that this account had been dormant for five years, then suddenly reactivated today just to POV-push their particular view of the world and how unfair it is in the ongoing RfC at Talk:2020 United States presidential election as well as to attack me everywhere as if they had a personal grudge on me, with my interactions with them being mostly-limited to having to defend myself from their attacks.
• Their latest actions have been to somehow justify themselves because of being a "newcomer" (despite the account having been created in 2006) and blanking the discussion at their talk page in its entirety (). There was also this egregious comment, once again accusing me of "bullying" (and again without any evidence to back up their accusations) but where they also made the (again, without evidence) accusation that I was accusing others of "foul play" ().

It should be noted that this came mere hours after I spotted an off-wiki canvassing attempt on the RfC, attempting to advocate for a particular candidate and use Misplaced Pages as a soapbox for their political positions (which I noted in the RfC), which in turn came after another user had to add the Notavote template because of ongoing suspicions on widespread off-canvassing (). I removed the links from the page for the sake of avoiding possible negative feedbacking, since there are many new accounts being created for the sole purpose of participating in the RfC in favour of a singular candidate (though I've collected evidence as screenshots and print shots in the case it needed to be denounced at an higher stance).

While there have been many emotions and not-too-fair tactics involved throughout the RfC's progress (even seeing an attempted on-wiki canvassing which was, nonetheless, dealt with without major consequences) this barrage of personal attacks is just too much, and the fact that ThymeCypher has taken it so personally on me despite no previous interaction between the two of us, coupled with the fact that they were a sleeper account from September 2015 to today, also hints at some possible WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT issue involved; in any case, clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Impru20 15:55, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

First off Misplaced Pages isn't a daycare with workers trying to resolve toybox arguments. You taking some of my broad comments personally is on you, full stop. Second off this he-said-she-said nonsense is ridiculous - you took what I said offensively but what I said was that YOU were offending others. Two wrongs do not make a right. Third, seriously, stop with the blind accusations. This is my only account. I made edits that I believe feel are important to the core mission of Misplaced Pages. They were made in good faith and in alignment with the current policy. This should be dropped on the basis of your blind accusations alone. ThymeCypher 16:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, you were asked to stop - so why must I? Are you the lord of Misplaced Pages? Seriously - this behavior is unacceptable for Misplaced Pages or any professional setting period. ThymeCypher 16:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

These two comments above are two perfect examples of the persistent WP:PA & WP:ASPERSION behaviour on myself that I have denounced and sourced in my opening statement. Impru20 16:10, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Pointing out another’s personal attacks is not a personal attack. Just stop already. ThymeCypher 16:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, it is, specially when such "personal attacks" are false and without evidence. Impru20 16:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The fact I did not explicitly provide evidence is not a lack of evidence. ThymeCypher 16:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Impru20: - In the future, please don't hesitate to formally notify users of discretionary sanctions using the {{Alert}} template. Handwritten messages are not valid, no matter how detailed. As it stands now, you've reported numerous clear-cut violations for which I would not hesitate to topic ban the user, but I can't really do much because they were never templated. Oh well. I'll go ahead and alert them now, with a formal warning that they will be banned from a relevant topic area if they continue making personal attacks, casting aspersions, or committing any other violation. ~Swarm~ 17:04, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Swarm: Ok, understood. Thank you for your response; hopefully the behaviour will stop now that the RfC has been closed (I filled this ANI thread when it was still ongoing, not knowing it was about to come to a close), but I'll take note in case of any further such incidents in the future. Impru20 17:10, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Swarm: The user requested to delete their whole user and talk pages (not before replying to your warning). Seems to confirm suspicions of it being a WP:SPA which has lost its purpose after the RfC's closure. I guess this thread can be closed accordingly, since the behaviour will probably not be continuing considering the aforementioned circumstances. Impru20 18:54, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Swarm: Since @ThymeCypher: has accused Impru20 of personal attacks in this thread, but without evidence, I believe there is unfinished business in this thread, and ThymeCypher should be required to produce some evidence or be sanctioned right now for the NPA vio done right here, under regular policy if not DS. If there are no diffs available, also applicable is WP:DISRUPTSIGNS (not answering simple questions). Ordinarily, I might be tempted to let the drama die out here and proceed under the DS alert that has now been given, but the user's attempt to delete their user and talk page makes me believe we would just be kicking the can down the road when it should be dealt with now. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree. This editor's behaviour seems to have been designed to be disruptive, and the decision to delete their page and vanish is also troubling. It should be particularly troubling given their sudden appearance yesterday after nearly five years of inactivity to edit and comment exclusively on articles concerning the US presidential election.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Johnpacklambert and Prods

• Johnpacklambert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm concerned that Johnpacklambert (JPL) does not understand when a prod should be used to delete an article. WP:PROD states in the opening line that it is for "a way to suggest an article or file for uncontroversial deletion". WP:PRODNOM goes into detail about what to do before nominating an article for a prod, including a link to WP:DEL-REASON.

I have raised my concerns with JPL in March 2020 and in April 2020. Despite bringing this to his attention, prods are still being made by JPL that I believe are improper use of the prod process. Examples from today include:

• This article lacks any reliable sources
• article lacks multiple reliable sources as required by GNG
• one source is never enough to pass GNG
• The sourcing is not enough to pass GNG and the competitions are not enough to establish default notability
• one source is never enough to establish a passing of GNG

Having one (or no) sources does not equate to the article being non-notable, and therefore these are not valid reasons to delete by prod. I'm happy to be corrected on this! I'm sure there are articles that get prodded that deserve to be so, as they are total rubbish. However, I see no attempt in trying to fix the issues, just drive-by tagging. These articles may well be non-notable, but not for the rationales being used.

My concerns about his lack of understanding of the prod process are also echoed across his AfD noms, for example this one. I see that in March 2017, JPL was banned from making more than one AfD nom in a 24hr period. I think something similar should be applied to his prods. Thanks. Lugnuts 17:14, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• This is an unreasonable proposal. Having 1 or no sources means an article does not pass GNG in its current state. The whole purpose of proposed deletion is to nominate for deletion articles that clearly are not meeting inclusion criteria. If a biography of a living person has no sources it can be nominated for speedy deletion just one those grounds. Proposed deletion is likewise meant for articles with little sign of notability, and especially when we are dealing with biographies of living people, as these articles all are, it is perfectly acceptable to nominate for proposed deletion articles that lack any sign of notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

But do you know the difference between notability and an article having no sources? I don't believe you do, as these examples show. Lugnuts 18:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll have a go. One is a concept, the other a waste of space/pixels. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 18:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• I’m not sure I understand why linking WP:CIR was necessary seeing that overall Johnpacklambert is competent & a good faith editor maybe a few errors but a “lack of understanding” ?? I think not! I also do not see how “banning” which is a tad bit too extreme would be necessary here when other non extreme measures which would be just as effective would be sufficient here.Celestina007 17:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

If he's "is competent & a good faith editor" then why was he banned from logging multiple AfDs? Lugnuts 18:18, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose any sanction. It must be very disheartening for JPL to see his good work dismissed in this way. Well done JPL. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 17:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

There's also disruptive edits, such as the ones on the article Barbara D'Alterio (see the edit history). Multiple times JPL has proded an article with no summary to indicate this, against the very instructions detailed at WP:PROD. Lugnuts 18:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Now this is turning into "let us find fault with everything Mr. Lambert has ever done that we do not like". There are not "disruptive edits like D'Alterio", this is one case of legitimatly not realizing I had prodded it before. The fact of the matter is that that article still lacks any one source that would pass GNG. If you look at the edit summary the three times were seperated by first a year and then seven months. The most interesting thing is that in all that time no one has bothered to even try to add anything that is at all better sourcing. I have been very particular of late to make sure every time I propose an article for proposed deletion I include this in the edit summary, so Mr. Lugnuts attack on me for not doing so in the past really does come off as trying to find fault.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Of the 7 entries in that page's history since 2018, 3 are you PRODding it, 3 are someone else removing it, one is a bot. That's ... not great. But it does seem to be an isolated incident. I'm wondering why you haven't punched it to AfD though? You're allowed one a day. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

You have to bear in mind how much emotional abuse I get from Lugnuts every time I nominate any article on an actor, actress or film for deletion. Working up to be ready for that level of insults for even thinking that not everyone who had a credited part in a commerically produced film is notable by default is not easy.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:50, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Here are some more recent examples from just the past few days (forgive me if I don't do the diffs, you can see from the recent edit history) - D. J. Baxendale, Bayartsetseg Altangerel, Beno Zephine, Giovanni Borsotti, Mariana Botas, Doug Brochu, Nar Cabico. All declined, all show no evidence that WP:BEFORE was used. If you were making geninue prods on non-notable articles, there would be no issue, but that's not the case. Lugnuts 07:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment So, this seems to me like a bit of a culture war. Some editors don't like articles that are published without being supported by multiple sources (which is what GNG calls for), and seek to delete them without doing as rigorous a BEFORE as they probably should. Some editors are happy with making thousands of stubs supported by a single source and an SNG, hoping that someone else will come along and improve them, and they get annoyed when people seek deletion without attempting to improve the sourcing first. A certain proportion of editors will see one, or the other, or perhaps both, of these approaches as less than ideal. I would encourage any reviewer to look for sources before nominating for PROD; I would also encourage any experienced author to aim to provide refs to enough sources to establish an obvious GNG pass before publishing an article in main space. I don't see anything actionable here, but I hope all editors might consider whether there's any room for them to up their respective games. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Some of the issues here goes to the issues that for a long time we allowed articles to be created without even making an account on Misplaced Pages, and there seem to still be ways to do so. There still is lots of creation of sub-par article, especially with relation to people involved in sports, but there is also a huge problem with legacy articles sitting around from a time when Misplaced Pages had even less clear standards for notability, inclusion and creation process than it does today. As an editor I have evolved in my understanding of what does and doe not constitute sourcing that passes the general notability guidelines, and have nominated at least 3 articles I created for deletion, but I think that number is a bit higher.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
    • Quick question: do you agree that a lack of sources in an article is not a reason for deletion? Hobit (talk) 19:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • <ec>: **I've got to disagree with you here. The rules for using PRODs are pretty darn clear. If this editor is commonly ignoring the rules and nominating because the article (not subject) doesn't have enough sources, they are doing it wrong. It's about as much about "culture" as stopping at red lights. I've not yet looked at the underlying issue (though I'm quite familiar with JPL's comments at AfD), but if they are regularly nominating things using WP:PROD without an actual valid reason for deletion, that's at least as much of an issue than doing the same at AfD. Hobit (talk) 19:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

    Hobit, if you don't stop at red lights, people die. Let's keep this in perspective. GirthSummit _(blether) 19:13, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

    Apparently I need to work on my analogies, second time I've been called out for them. The point I'm making is that the line is clear and this is way over it. If he (or anyone) feels that not having sources in the article is a valid reason to delete an article, I'd suggest he propose that change. As it stands, it clearly is not. Hobit (talk) 19:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

    Sure it is; see WP:BLPPROD which is specifically for BLPs (which JPL's recent prods all seem to be) which have no sources at all; clearly "no sources" is expected to be a reason for deletion for BLPs. Maybe finding a reference is preferable to some but it's not required, and presumably if someone like Barbara D'Alterio is "prominent" someone ought to have found any source at all besides a cast list and a Wordpress blog saying so in the fourteen years that article has existed. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

    Help me out here. He's not using WP:BLPPROD, he's using WP:PROD. The bar for BLPPROD and PROD are really quite different. In particular, any source is enough to overcome a BLPPROD. Are you claiming that because BLPPROD exists, the bar for the PROD process is lower than otherwise specified in WP:PROD? Sorry, I really don't follow your argument, sorry if I'm just being slow--it's been a long day already. Hobit (talk) 19:32, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

    But you actually need a source to overcome a BLPPROD, you need absolutely nothing to remove a regular PROD. Which is what on some occasions is exactly what happens after the PROD is removed, which is in part why it is not uncommon for a PROD to lead to an actual deletion nomination. So if someone puts a PROD on a page, any editor came remove it, including the page creator, with absolutely no change to the article and no reason needed to be given, and then it is ineligible for PROD, and can only be deleted by AfD.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

    Right, any source cancels a BLPPROD, and any objection for any reason whatsoever cancels a PROD. I would say the bar for removing a PROD is substantially lower. My point, though, is in response to your assertion that not having sources is not accepted as a reason for deletion: clearly it is accepted, for BLPs. The policy says that information on living persons that is challenged may not be restored without providing a reliable source. I don't particularly agree with this approach, but I would suggest that JPL PRODding a BLP is in effect challenging the information wholesale, and if nobody provides a source to counter the challenge then policy compels deletion. But maybe I'm wikilawyering. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

    Wow. PROD is really clear on what a valid deletion reason is. BLPPROD is really clear on what a valid use of BLPPROD is. "No reliable sources in article" isn't something that either PROD or BLPPROD have as a reason for using them. Hard stop. Making sure that the line between the two is large was part of why BLPPROD didn't just get folded into PROD. Hobit (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• oppose any sanction. As per Roxy. This is ridiculous. The doom and gloom here is unwarranted, prods are worthless anyway and I doubt anything is going to get "mistakenly" deleted after a 7 day prod by flying under the radar. Praxidicae (talk) 19:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I've honestly no idea. Doubting that anything is going to get mistakenly deleted via PROD seems like a strong statement. How can you measure how many articles mistakenly get deleted via PROD? Is there some common review process or some other way to know this? My own intuition is that PRODs would be more likely to have problems than the much more regulated speedies and there are a fair number of wrong ones there that not only get overturned at DRV, but later get kept at AfD. Hobit (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

You're explaining a theoretical situation where a prod would actually probably be appropriate because I find it unlikely that a notable subject would be deleted by way of a prod and it would just suddenly slip away. If no one cares to refute it for 7 days, well....

Prod deleted articles are very easy to restore. One only has to make a request. Praxidicae (talk) 19:32, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oh, good grief. OPPOSE --Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support proposed 24-hour restriction. This recent behavior continues the same trend of ignoring WP:BEFORE that got him topic banned from AFD. I'm not sure why the topic ban didn't include a restriction on PRODding in the first place. Calidum 19:42, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • It didn't include a restiction on prodding because one of the actual complaints was that I was flodding AfD in some cases with articles that should have just been prodded. The more pertinent complaint was that I had dared to question the absolute deference of allowing everyone who has ever played one game in a football league to be considered default notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose pretty much what Praxidicae 'said' I don’t see any real reason here thus far for any dire sanctions or actions to be taken. Hence I oppose any sanction(s) against Johnpacklambert. Please let us quit attacking good faith editors over relatively trivial matters. Celestina007 19:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • @Celestina007: Question: Do you feel it is appropriate to PROD articles solely because of the sources currently in the article? Hobit (talk) 21:12, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
    • That is the explicit rule on BLPPROD and I always thought it was at least the implicit rule on all prods.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

      Ah. That's not the case for PRODs. PRODs are not appropriate for insufficient, but non-zero, sourcing in the article where a search for sources has not been carried out. That is, before nominating for WP:N/WP/V reasons (absent a blatant hoax), you have to do a WP:BEFORE. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 21:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Hobit, I 100% get your argument but Johnpacklambert has acknowledged he may have erred by thinking BLPPRODDING & general prodding followed the same rules. What I don’t understand is why Lugnuts & perharps yourself are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill by seeking for the 'death penalty'. There are real problems facing Misplaced Pages & JPL making infinitesimal errors isn’t one of them. @Mdaniels5757, yes you are very much apt & I think JPL understands that by now. Can someone close this discussion already? Celestina007 22:05, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Celestina007: Unless I'm missing something, and it's quite possible I am, he's been told his PRODs were problematic in both March and April (per the top of this section). He's continued to do the same things. In general, he is highly involved in the deletion processes on Misplaced Pages (500 AfDs in the last ~30 days, likely more than any other editor), but misunderstands basic deletion issues and seems unable to hear issues. Of those 500 AfDs, he !voted to keep less than 1% of the time. For example, in something I nominated for deletion, he said it wasn't verifiable which was just utterly wrong. When I pinged him, there was no response. At the end, the article was kept. He literally !votes to keep less than 1% of the time, which seems to indicate not really looking at the subject. I don't think I've ever used this link before but WP:CIR seems to apply here. Maybe he can help Misplaced Pages in other areas, but not understanding the deletion process (PROD, WP:V, WP:BEFORE) while being perhaps the most active editor in that area is a big problem. Hobit (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

His whole deletion mantra of using "one source is never enough to pass GNG" (or variations of this) seem complelty at odds to his own article creations, such as Vincent J. Piro, Adeyemi I Alowolodu, Obinna Ogba, LeRoy Davis White, etc, etc. It just reaffirms for me that he simply doesn't understand prods, notability, or indeed, what he's actually doing. Lugnuts 13:55, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I don't like sanctions of well meaning editors but think this deserves criticism, at least a WP:TROUT. It's an article about a Portuguese actor. w:pt:Tiago Abravanel has no fewer than 30 sources. There is WP:SNOW of this article being deleted at WP:AFD, so nominating it for WP:PROD is disingenuous at best. --GRuban (talk) 21:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support the 24 hour restriction and will provide examples of the editor's poor PROD work shortly. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 00:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Johnpacklambert often prods incorrectly because he doesn't consistently do adequate WP:BEFORE. Examples include:

Prodding Billy Sands with the comment “neither IMDb nor Find a Grave is a reliable source we should not have articles with no reliable sources”, and after it was deprodded, providing a rare plot twist and demonstrating he is capable of adding sources here.

Prodding an Emmy nominee here: with the following reason: “The only sources are the subject's own website and IMDb, just repeating them multiple times to fool people to thinking there is something of substance here does not change the total lack of any reliable sources”. Here he assumes bad faith editing of whoever made the article in the nomination statement and focusing on the state of sourcing in the article rather than the subject’s notability and the existence of reliable secondary sources.

Johnpacklambert has been vocal in his defense of how he prods articles sourced to IMDb. To Bearcat, he has written, “I have nominated several for proposed deletion but keep having the proposed deletion be removed and was even threatened with being taken to ANI for nominated articles that have as their one and only source IMDb.” Yes, multiple people have a problem with that because one is not supposed to prod unless one has completed BEFORE and believes the prod is uncontroversial. By this point he must know how controversial entertainment BLP prods are. Note he created two sections for this, eleven days apart: here and here.

I think the privilege of being able to do multiple prods per day is inappropriate for him at this point. I’m sorry if Johnpacklambert feels anxious or frustrated when he sees tagged articles or articles sourced only to IMDb. I’d prefer he stick to one deletion nomination per day and if necessary one prod per day so that editors with researching tendencies can look into a matter for him. Speaking of which… he should be able to just use his daily deletion nom. I have not seen him attempt the max deletion nomination per day I think since back in April when he was very into the classic film scene, though he could be doing it in other spaces. Thank you. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support a ban from all deletion processes I just took a look through his last 15 or so prods. I would say approx 3 or 4 of them were maybe valid PROD's according to the PROD rules and thats being generous. This isnt to say they would survive AFD, quite a few of them wouldnt. But just as many would. But its clear the bare minimum of BEFORE just isnt being done. It also looks like JPL has just switched from nominating at AFD, to systematically going through topics and PROD-tagging to avoid his AFD restriction. This wouldnt be so bad if he was actually following the guidelines and only prodding articles that qualify. But he's just carpet bombing and seeing what sticks. Its the same issue that led to the AFD restrictions. There is no indication he understands (despite it being explained to him multiple times) what you are supposed to do before nominating/prodding, so why waste time constructing another custom restriction, the problem will just be moved somewhere else. Either make it a blanket ban from all deletion, or just unprod everything he prods. Only in death does duty end (talk) 02:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - In this case, I don't see evidence of an unacceptably-high error rate sufficient to necessitate the proposed sanction in light of the exchange between JPL and Mdaniels above, plus I agree with Prax. More broadly, I don't understand why it should be OK to mass-create articles that don't meet our policies (like WP:V) but it's not OK to mass delete them. Why doesn't the creator of an article have to do a WP:BEFORE search, but the deleter does? Hobit is right that PROD is clear but policy should follow practice, not the other way around, and I, for one, think PRODing articles that are only sourced to IMDB is a good thing. It's good for the encyclopedia. Not PRODing them is bad for the encyclopedia. And--just my opinion--if PROD says otherwise, it should be changed. No one should be creating an article without, at least, one reliable source, or else we're just ignoring WP:V. After 20 years, it's time to require some minimal verification for all topics. Or, at least, don't ban those who PROD unverified articles. Levivich  08:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Two points: #1 yes, if you want to change our deletion policies you probably should propose changing them rather than supporting people who are massively ignoring them. #2 are you saying you disagree with WP:BEFORE? Because that seems to be exactly what you are saying--that someone using our deletion process has no responsibility to look beyond the article as it exists. If you believe that is "practice" (and I often see that it is, though I think it shouldn't be) then propose the change and see what happens. It might well be that people support such an action these days (see the sandcastle essay/story on my user page), though I'd personally hope we aren't at that point quite yet. Hobit (talk) 14:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

    Hobit, consider this series of events: Editor 1 creates an article with no source. Editor 2 PRODs it. Editor 3 de-PRODs it but does not add a source. Now, who should do a BEFORE search? All three should. Assuming there is a source out there, who should add it? All three should. Who do we sanction for failing to perform a BEFORE search? Only Editor 2. That is what I disagree with, and it doesn't require any change in policy, because while policy might forbid JPL from PRODing an article based on a lack of sourcing in the article without first doing a BEFORE search (which JPL has acknowledged below), policy does not require that we sanction JPL for failing to do so. Levivich  18:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

    • I understand the argument. I don't even disagree with it. But A) thems the rules as they exist right now B) If someone was dePRODing 100s of articles a month without any relevant arguments, I suspect they'd be here too C) this editor seems to really not get our policies and guidelines. As I said, he's probably involved in more deletion debates (AfDs, Prods, etc.) than any single user right now. But apparently he honestly didn't understand that we don't delete on the basis of the state of the article (aside from WP:TNT). I mean *didn't know* even though he's involved in at least 500 discussions a month. That seems like a problem. And it's not like people haven't reached out to him. Over and over. I've done it once in the last month and he was supporting my position but it was so wrong I had to say something (again, he claimed the article wasn't verifiable when it had plenty of sources in it to meet WP:V). I'm happy, for now, with the PROD agreement found below. I suspect, much like we did with BOZ, I'll be asking for more meaningful and policy/guideline-based deletion arguments at AfD too. Right now they are almost all of the form "no reliable sources in article" (and *that* isn't always true...) or sometimes "non-notable lawyer" or something like that with no policy basis at all. Hobit (talk) 19:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - Firstly, PROD is not supposed to be a big deal. People can remove them for any reason no matter how stupid, or even no reason at all, so it's also no big deal if you get a lot of PRODs declined. Secondly I agree with Levivich. Why do we allow the apparently semi-automatic creation of a bzillion tiny, badly sourced stubs but then wail and gnash our teeth and put people through the wringer for trying to delete some of the worst of them? We should move WP:BEFORE to be a prerequisite for creating articles rather than deleting them. Reyk _YO! 08:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Whatever would we do without hundreds of articles about f list athletes who once set foot on a notable stadiums field? Praxidicae (talk) 13:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Find some other database to scrape, no doubt. Reyk _YO! 13:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

re: "We should move WP:BEFORE to be a prerequisite for creating articles rather than deleting them." Wholeheartedly agree. This should be proposed.   // Timothy :: talk  14:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per Prax. --JBL (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: There's a .sig I've been using for many years that runs "It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. It's that I don't agree with what you're saying." Inadequate sourcing is not only a valid ground for deletion, tens of thousands of articles have been zapped for just that lack. Neither JPL or any of us are under any onus to agree with Lugnuts' definition of "uncontroversial," which happens not to be set down in any guideline I can see. From what I can see, the nom's objection is to the language JPL is using in his prod rationales. Any kind of sanction for *that* is just plain absurd. Ravenswing 14:01, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying, but I'd like to be sure. Are you arguing WP:BEFORE shouldn't be a part of the deletion process? If not, could you clarify
    • I'm pretty sure that WP:BEFORE forms no part of my opposition, but I'll answer your question anyway: no, of course not. In fact, I really would love to see it explicitly written in that a deprodder must use BEFORE prior to removing a prod. But, like with the original complaint here, I want rather more proof that JPL ignored BEFORE than mere speculation. Ravenswing 14:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• question for edification, can the OP or those supporting sanctioning JPL for this please provide an example of a prod placed by JPL which resulted in deletion but shouldn't have? Praxidicae (talk) 14:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • That someone would have to be an admin, yes? Hobit (talk) 14:17, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• I'm concerned that John Pack Lambert seems to be circumventing his 1 AfD a day restriction by nominating multiple prods, a lot of which seem to be dubious. PROD is for uncontroversial deletions that don't require a discussion but do not meet any CSD criteria, and there's no way that "one source is never enough to pass GNG" should led to an article being deleted without discussion. An AfD should be had in such cases to determine if additional sources exist to establish notability. If JPL is making prods that need to be AfDs, that kind defeats the point of the restriction-- P-K3 (talk) 14:43, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support The PROD process explains itself quite clearly: "PROD is a way to suggest an article or file for uncontroversial deletion. ... PROD must only be used if no opposition to the deletion is expected." It seems apparent that JPL is nominating topics for deletion in the face of expected opposition from editors such as Lugnuts. As PROD must not be used in such an adversarial way and JPL has been previously warned and sanctioned for their abuse of deletion processes, they should be banned from the PROD process altogether. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I am a he. Your use of the plural to refer to me is very insulting.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Jesus Christ!, Oppose per Roxy, JBL, Prax, Celestina and DFO - I see nothing wrong with John's PRODDING here and IMHO this relates nothing to AFD. –Davey2010 18:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, Johnpacklambert’s work in deletion areas is far superior to many of those voting to support this proposal. Devonian Wombat (talk) 01:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

A modest proposal

It's been suggested that WP:BEFORE be moved to being before article creation, rather than as part of the deletion process. That will further reduce our editor pool (adding in-line sources to an article is likely initially beyond most new editors), but I think a lot of folks here wouldn't mind the reduction in new article and frankly our new editor pool is shrinking enough that it's not clear we need to worry about shrinking it more. So perhaps we are at a point it's time to require all new articles have at least two possibly-reliable sources within 7 or 14 days of creation. A bot tags them say no sooner than 24 hours after creation and notifies the creator. After 14 days it gets treated as a speedy (admin reviews but probably just accepts unless the bot screwed up or it is clearly notable). We also agree to follow WP:BEFORE as part of the deletion process of older articles. I suspect the folks who really worry about in-line citations being a requirement for articles could work their way through the articles in a year or so, much like we did for BLPPRODs (which was actually a fair bit of fun for me--just taking name off a list and trying to source them).

For the record, I think that the impact on the editor pool is the main reason to not do this. So I'm probably opposed to my own proposal. But if we did do it, I'd hope we could create some YouTube videos about how to create an article and maybe start seriously working on recruiting drives, creating a list of topics that are notable (with proposed sources) that newbees can start on, and maybe dropping the DRAFT space entirely (who wants to create an article that someone else has to approve before it shows up) or at least for pre-approved topics. I honestly suspect DRAFT space is the worst thing that has happened to editor recruitment ever. Drafts sit waiting while folks that often have a bar for creation that is way over our inclusion guidelines act as gatekeepers. Hobit (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I'd support it myself, but (a) it wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of gaining consensus, and (b) this isn't the venue to make the suggestion anyway. Ravenswing 15:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Yeah, partly just pointing out that people are effectively doing this already here by saying "eh, it's not within policy, but that's okay". Partly trying to get a sense of if this is where we want to go. Hobit (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose We already have a huge number of guidelines, policy and process for article creation including WP:AfC; WP:CSD; WP:GNG, WP:NPP, &c. WP:BEFORE is not some simple shorthand for citations; there's a lot more to it than that and it is written specifically for the AfD process. We don't need some half-baked version of this repeating for article creation because we already have a mountain of such stuff.

The general issue with article creation is that doing it well is beyond most people. Hobit himself only seems to have created 10 articles and 4 of those were deleted. They should please get more experience of the process before trying to tell the rest of us how it should be done. JPL has created 2,421 articles and, while 244 of those were deleted, that's a better survival rate. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:56, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose more bureaucracy that could deter new good faith editors but not bother the undisclosed paid editors and sockpuppets who are skilled up in advance. Also too much automation will have a dehumanising effect and further deter new editors, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• AfC is a joke because we do not force anything through it. Those who oppose an expectation of before for creation of an article show a very strong bias against making Misplaced Pages a source that lives up to its own stated principles of verrifiability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Another modest proposal

Hobit your proposal is worth consideration, but this thread on a specific editor's conduct isn't the right place to do it. Perhaps start an RfC and link to this discussion, which we ought to keep focussed on how to deal with the issue at hand.

How about this as a way forward. Johnpacklambert said here that he thought a lack of sources was an implicit criterion under which an article may be PRODed. John: no, it's not. You need to satisfy yourself that there is a valid reason to delete. While WP:BEFORE describes the checks you should make before nominating at AfD, you should still check for sources yourself to confirm whether or not the subject is notable - if there are sources out there which aren't currently in the article, but which might establish notability, either add them to the article or, if you're feeling lazy, slap a 'sources exist' tag on it (or, if you're feeling really lazy, do nothing) rather than PRODing. I have already said that I don't think that you should be sanctioned over this, but that there is room for you to up your game in this area - perhaps if you would undertake to do that, we can all move on? GirthSummit _(blether) 14:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I will try to use more review before prodding articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Johnpacklambert - I'm not sure about the 'try' in there - any chance of something more concrete? I was thinking of something like "I confirm that I will not in future use standard PROD on any article on the basis of a lack of sources unless I have first checked and been unable to find suitable sources (although I reserve the right to apply BLPPRODs to entirely unsourced articles about living people)." GirthSummit _(blether) 15:29, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd support this too. Thanks Girth for putting together some sort of wording. Lugnuts 16:27, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Here is goes. I confirm that I will not in the future use standard PROD on any article on the basis of a lack of sources unless I have first checked and been unable to find suitable sources (although I reserve the right to apply BLPPRODs to entirely unsourced articles about living people).John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:45, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm perfectly fine with that. I'd love it if you did that for your AfD !votes too... Hobit (talk) 17:01, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Hobit, I don’t like the manner in which Johnpacklambert is being treated. Established good faith editors like JPL should be able to enjoy editing & not feel like they are walking on egg shells. I’m still baffled at how minor errors pertaining to prod use would escalate into this. Seeing as prods are the least important of the three methods of deletion. I mean who really cares about prods? or uses them? Save for JPL because of the same limitations this commmunity has imposed on him. Let us not sacrifice good faith editors on the altar of perfection. Celestina007 21:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Move to close

JPL has acknowledged the issues and committed to avoid repeating them. The OP seems satisfied. As I read it, no further action is needed at this point, so we should probably close this. GirthSummit _(blether) 22:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Girth Summit, this seems to be the best course of action at this juncture. I second this/Support this. Celestina007 23:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that now JPL understand the prod process better this can be closed. P-K3 (talk) 01:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Removing sources from multiple articles with bogus edit summaries

RHuns97 (talk · contribs); needs administrative attention. Looks like WP:NOTHERE. Requesting a block and reversion of their edits. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 20:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

BLocked until the give a decent explanation. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I've reverted a few dozen, and would appreciate someone with better tools taking care of the remainder. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 21:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I also rolled back all of the edits that were still live. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, thank you again. I saw that after I posted here. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 21:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

User:AnwinNovaTrichy (formerly User:Guru Trichy)

AnwinNovaTrichy (talk · contribs · count) has a long-term pattern of making disruptive edits on topics related to India and Islam. These edits often insert unverifiable claims or remove citations of reliable sources. A significant portion of these edits are accompanied by edit summaries that are not representative of the content of the edits. See the following examples:

1. Special:Diff/969783560: Inserted a link to a personal website that redirects to an article on OpIndia (RSP entry), a domain on the spam blacklist, to claim that Sushant Singh Rajput's cause of death is disputed
2. Special:Diff/968925500: Inserted unsourced political labels with deceptive link targets, ] ], in Merku Thodarchi Malai, marked as a minor edit
3. Special:Diff/954556820: Changed "areas currently administered by Pakistan" to "areas currently occupied by Pakistan" (emphasis added) with the edit summary "minor gramatical error" in Next Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly election, marked as a minor edit
4. Special:Diff/920570071: Added "(and to some extent, extremists)" to Baʽathism
5. Special:Diff/945641979: Removed a citation to an article from The Washington Post and changed "far-right and Islamophobic groups" to "centrist islam groups and anti-islamic extremism groups" in Mohammad Tawhidi, with the edit summary "Cleared dead links", marked as a minor edit
6. Special:Diff/913316196: Changed "Islamic religious-political-armed movement" to "Islamic Extremist religious-political-armed movement cum Terrorist Organization" (emphasis added) in Houthi movement with the edit summary "minor gramatical error", marked as a minor edit
7. Special:Diff/918814093: Changed "Hindu nationalist, paramilitary volunteer organisation" to "nationalist, volunteer organisation", added "(It should be duly noted that said person was kicked out of the organisation even before he assassinated Gandhi for his radical and supporting ideas irrelevant to Rss's agenda)", and changed "Hindu community" to "culture of India and her place in the world" in Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, with the edit summary "Numerous Spelling Mistakes and long quotations have been removed", marked as a minor edit

AnwinNovaTrichy's contribution history shows that most of the user's edits violate policy in some way. Some of these affected articles do not receive enough attention for the unconstructive edits to be reverted in a timely manner.

I propose that AnwinNovaTrichy be indefinitely blocked for long-term disruptive editing. — Newslinger talk 21:05, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support site ban on the basis of the bold and outrageous deceit between the edit summaries and the contents. Noobs get patient instruction. Policy followers with a tinge of POV get somewhat more assertive reality checks. Intentional deception of this sort should get shown the door. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Don't we have a DS in this topic area? AE might've been faster. Can't indef with it, but topic bans and 1 yr blocks sure. Flicking through contribs since 2016, I can't find a single constructive edit. Even the ones that aren't highly problematic are edits that go against our core content policies, and the rest are just religion/IPAK POV pushing -- support site ban. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:02, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes we do, however it only kicks in if you can show the user was "aware" of it. In this case, the alert notice has been given, but not before most (all?) of these diffs. So its in place for next time, but given the outrageous deceit, why kick the can down the road? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:25, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

NewsAndEventsGuy is right. This kind of report would ideally be submitted to arbitration enforcement, but the editor had not been notified with the discretionary sanctions alert prior to making all of these edits. The edits are both consistent and egregious enough for me to submit this report right away. — Newslinger talk 19:39, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support: A long time editor with a history of productive edits, that's someone to whom you give a warning shot. But it just seems that this guy shows up every year or so and makes a heap of such edits. Ravenswing 15:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support seems to be on a political mission, Atlantic306 (talk) 20:09, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Hostility towards tag and prod removers from Ravenswing

Let me preface this by saying I respect the time Ravenswing puts into the project.

That being said, there is a problem. Ravenswing has been prodding articles with longstanding problem tags. While I personally think that in general deletion of articles that have survived for over a decade is unlikely to be entirely uncontroversial, that's not even what this is about. The issue is that when anybody has the nerve to challenge a PROD or tag by Ravenswing, his response may be:

• "something of a garbage deprod there"
• "... but, it seems, you weren't motivated to add any sources or improve the article in any way. Fair enough." (the "fair enough" is obviously dripping with sarcasm)
• "... whoof. You're honestly implying that it takes over ten years to source an article? That does say it all, doesn't it."
• And he just bludgeons the discussion by repeating the same "10 years" argument over and over.

These examples are from this month, but apparently it ain't nothing new: "My, you're not very good at listening or at assuming good faith, are you? (..) For another, if you're going to act like a butthurt newbie incensed that someone has "dissed" HER article" is from December 2019.

I have asked Ravenswing directly in the discussion on Misplaced Pages talk:Proposed deletion#Ravenswing influx whether they acknowledge that this kind of approach isn't inspiring collaboration. Instead of answering the question, Ravenswing suggested I bring this to ANI.

In an ideal world, an admin tells Ravenswing not to be hostile towards his fellow editors, and Ravenswing agrees. In a less ideal world, Ravenswing would be topic banned from responding to de-prods and tag removals. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 09:45, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• "Ravenswing talks to us the way we talk to him! How beastly!" Reyk _YO! 10:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Aye, thank you. For instance, what Alexis Jazz carefully didn't quote from that bit from last December, on my user talk page, was the bit preceding it, which I invite people to review: . Or, perhaps, some of Alexis Jazz's own comments: (Just FYI, my actual answer to them, in a discussion based on the deprodders' alarm that I was prodding more articles that had been carrying notability tags for over a decade than they appreciated, was “I certainly acknowledge that "When did you stop beating your wife?" style questions aren't going to get any kind of answer from me. Feel free to take it to ANI, if you're unafraid of boomerangs.” Ravenswing 13:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

In addition to the interaction on my talk page (I beleive this was prompted by my Preview (computing) deprod) that Alexis Jazz has already cited, I found this AfD discussion unnecessarily hostile. ~Kvng (talk) 14:33, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I certainly found hostile, in that case, that you deprodded with a rationale that a redirect or merge was more appropriate, then you reverted the redirect, and then claimed that there were useful sources when not a single one of them actually mentioned the subject. Nor, if you were wishful of avoiding hostility, was a response of "Why don't we just close this as redirect and I'll make some improvements to Steven Martini and we'll have an edit war there or whatever" helpful. Ravenswing 15:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Are you willing to acknowledge your own hostility? You're eager here to identify it when yours brings out the worst in others. ~Kvng (talk) 16:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• oppose any sort of action against Ravenswing. This is just plain old silly. Disagreement can be terse but it isn't uncivil and there isn't any type of disruption to warrant any sort of ban. Praxidicae (talk) 15:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Praxidicae: We do have editors reluctant to challenge Ravenswing's prods due to expected hostility. Isn't that a type of disruption? I do see incivility in these interactions. Am I imagining things or being overly sensitive? ~Kvng (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like they are afraid to be challenged. Doesn't seem uncivil to me. Praxidicae (talk) 18:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

There's absolutely nothing civil or constructive about interactions like this, blatant badgering, responses like this, or any of the other stuff that has been presented here. It's evident from this that Ravenswing is attempting to bully anyone who opposes their attempts at deletion. The strawman fallacies are not a good sign either (, , , , , ). Darkknight2149 20:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support: This sort of thing is unfortunately very common among overzealous deletionists (who almost always have a victim complex as they assume bad faith toward anyone who deprods or opposes them for any reason). Everyone is entitled to deprod an article if they dispute the deletion. Controversial redirects must be discussed. Full stop. If Ravenswing has evidence that this snarkiness is called for, they should present it. But generally speaking, even an "eye for an eye" approach is disruptive. Darkknight2149 19:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  "Overzealous deletionist who almost always has a victim complex" is, in my view, more uncivil than any of the recent quotes in the OP. Levivich  19:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• It's not uncivil. OZ is something that I feel is aptly applicable here, and "victim complex" refers to acting like the victim after attempting to bully or harassing another user (which is something that tends to happen on Misplaced Pages, to the point that there is a guideline on that). Darkknight2149 20:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• It's not a policy at all. It's an opinionated essay. Reyk _YO! 20:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose in case this wasn't obvious from the above. Firstly, it's not clear what admin action is being requested. Secondly, it hasn't been shown that Ravenswing is being any more hostile towards others as they are towards him. The opposite has been shown, in fact. Thirdly, the above support is so mendacious and hypocritical that I can't let it pass without comment. Reyk _YO! 20:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Reyk: From OP, the requested admin action is, In an ideal world, an admin tells Ravenswing not to be hostile towards his fellow editors, and Ravenswing agrees. In a less ideal world, Ravenswing would be topic banned from responding to de-prods and tag removals. ~Kvng (talk) 22:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I just double checked all of the supposed "evidence" of rudeness from Alex Jazz above, and they really don't help Raven's case (, , , ). Each of these diffs clearly show Alex and The Drover's Wife responding to Raven in a calm and collected manner. Calmly calling someone out for being uncivil or bludgeoning a discussion is not disruptive, and it's exactly what WP:UNCIVIL says to do. Likewise, no one needs anyone's approval to deprod an article, and no discussion is even required in the first place. Instead of badgering those who do, Ravenswing needs to either open an WP:AFD or engage in dispute resolution in a less confrontational manner. Harassment in fact disruptive, regardless of whether or not you agree with the prods. Darkknight2149 00:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - Would be better to decide (via RFC) the criteria for prodding. GoodDay (talk) 22:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • That has already been discussed to death, and regardless of criteria, it doesn't justify harassment. This is not a content issue. WP:INCIVILITY is defined as "Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments. Especially when done in an aggressive manner, these often alienate editors and disrupt the project through unproductive stressors and conflict. While a few minor incidents of incivility that no one complains about are not necessarily a concern, a continuing pattern of incivility is unacceptable", which I think fits the bill here. There are claims from Reyk and Ravenswing that the deprodders were uncivil first, which I don't believe has been substantiated and Raven's statements at Misplaced Pages talk:Proposed deletion suggest that s/he is always confrontational. But even if that's the case, it still doesn't justify what Ravenswing is doing - "In general, be non-retaliatory in dealing with incivility. If others are uncivil, do not respond in kind. Consider ignoring isolated examples of incivility, and simply moving forward with the content issue. If necessary, point out gently that you think the comment might be considered uncivil and make it clear that you want to move on and focus on the content issue. Bear in mind that the editor may not have thought he or she was being uncivil; Misplaced Pages is edited by people from many different backgrounds, and standards vary. Take things to dispute resolution (see below) only if there is an ongoing problem that you cannot resolve." Darkknight2149 22:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

109.197.152.21

• 109.197.152.21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Removes stuff mainly about Kurdish but other languages as well.

• They removed text from Kurdish phonology 3 times this year
• Removed from Kurdish phonology last year as well
• Removed a Kurdish occurrence in a IPA sound page
• Removed a letter from Kurdish alphabets page, edit survived 20 days.
• They have also vandalized ku.wikipedia
• More stuff removed/useless stuff added in other language-related pages.

Been warned multiple times. This IP appears to be only used for adding incorrect information or removing important information. -- Guherto (talk) 11:09, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Refactoring another's user talk page, and edit-warring to do so

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It looks like CommanderWaterford incorrectly gave JorgeLaArdilla a {{uw-delete3}} warning, which JorgeLaArdilla then removed. Then there's a discussion on CommanderWaterford's talk page about this, which CommanderWaterford likewise removes (after, ironically, invoking WP:DTTR to JorgeLaArdilla who joined in 2018, which CommanderWaterford himself had just templated!). JorgeLaArdilla gets upset, removing multiple sections from their own talk page, including their 2018 welcome message. Multiple WP:TPG violations are then committed on CommanderWaterford's talk page by JorgeLaArdilla. Neither party comes across looking especially well in this exchange. Both CommanderWaterford and JorgeLaArdilla are cautioned to channel more patience in their Misplaced Pages interactions. El_C 13:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Generally agree with El C, except and I can sort of sympathize with JorgeLaArdilla getting upset and going kind of overboard. I'm very quickly losing faith in User:CommanderWaterford's ability to use RedWarn, and wonder if there's a way short of blocking him to prevent him from using it anymore. I'll leave him a note to make sure he knows that this thread is about him too; he may have assumed it's all about JorgeLaArdilla. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:26, 31 July 2020 UTC)

That's a perennial problem with the JAVA-based power tools. No easy way to turn them off (that I know of). When it's an admin-conferred privilege, it only takes the click of a button. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

After reviewing his work this morning (multiple poor CSD tags, multiple false accusations of vandalism, refusing to discuss with people raising problems) and his response to my note just now, I am going to block CommanderWaterford indefinitely if he uses RedWarn again without getting consent here to do so. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, see you at the Arbcom. Have a nice day. CommanderWaterford (talk) 14:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

CommanderWaterford, uw-delete3 was likely automatically selected by RedWarn. You had 3 chances to review this decision:

• On the rollback screen, you could've selected another quick rollback reason
• Normally, you have the choice to choose a number of options after rolling back, however, you had warning selected as default, which is not a problem but did remove another chance for you to review your decision.
• On the warning screen, RedWarn deliberately illustrates its selection of a warning template. You are then shown a preview of it. You then must click the button yourself to confirm this choice and submit.
• On the user talk page, if you noticed an issue, you have a 10 second (ish) timeframe to click "undo". You can go to the page history to revert this even after the issue occurs.

RedWarn is a powerful tool, this is clearly shown at the top of the RedWarn page and in WP:REDWARN/A. More care. Ed6767 talk! 19:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, I already left you a note on the talk page, honestly don't know what you are exactly trying to achieve by threatening me to block from using Redwarn, as I told you, wishing you anyway a nice day. CommanderWaterford (talk) 14:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

What I am "trying to achieve" is prevent further disruption by you. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:39, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry Floquenbeam but you can discuss this with the arbcom in the next days, I don't have time in life for this, sorry. CommanderWaterford (talk) 14:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, I am in agreement with you, actually, which I thought was reflected in my evaluation note. CommanderWaterford, calling Floquenbeam's warning a "threat" and escalating this to Arbitration while the matter is still ongoing here at ANI, does not inspire confidence, I'm sorry to say. El_C 15:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Didn't mean to imply we disagreed. Report was about Editor A. You commented that actually Editors A and B were both at fault, which I agree with. I'm just saying that in my opinion, Editor B is more at fault, so to speak. (Floq goes and looks again at his post) Ah, I see, poor word choice on my part. Fixed. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

CW: You'll just be wasting everyone's time, as ArbCom is extremely unlikely to accept such a case at this point in the process. ArbCom is the final step in dispute resolution, not step #2, and they're likely going to see Floq's actions as being well within admin discretion. In fact, I'm surprised Floq gave you another chance, I thought for sure you were going to be blocked from using RedWarn (whatever that is) in this cycle, not the next one. Maybe the fcat that you're pretty much a newbie (2 months) saved your bacon. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:17, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

According to this discussion, CW disclosed that he had a prior account to both TonyBallioni and Rosguill, fyi. Some kind of clean start, perhaps. ——Serial 15:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

which they subsequently denied and demanded a cu to prove "innocence"...Praxidicae (talk) 15:30, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• indef block Misuse of power tools and lack of accountability for their use. Taking a wholly unacceptable approach to criticism, including but not limited to threatening to escalate to ArbCom when concerns are raised. Such is well within admin purview and well within the scope of ANI. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  Going back to Tony's comment at Serial Number 54129's dif's, I'd say the line has been crossed.Adding per WP:CIR and Misplaced Pages:Not compatible with a collaborative project --Deepfriedokra (talk)

A two-month-old account citing DTTR and knowing about ArbCom? There's a rash of well-meaning but largely inexperienced users showing up and going nuts with Redwarn, but this particular account smells a little fishy. Like a piece of dirty laundry. Grandpallama (talk) 17:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Grandpallama, in fairness to CommanderWaterford, I actually informed them of WP:DTTR a few weeks ago. El_C 17:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I do see that was a fairly big topic on their talkpage near the beginning of the month. It looks like there are other degrees of familiarity with WP processes before that which are also alarming, though. But familiarity with DTTR seems explicable. Grandpallama (talk) 17:17, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Grandpallama: Somewhere up above it talks about this account being a WP:FRESHSTART, though I must say the successfulness of the freshstart is open to debate. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

(ec) Yeah, telling an admin to take a hike and then threatening with Arbcom probably isn't what a fresh start is meant for. Is there any way RedWarn can be removed, short of blocking them?-- P-K3 (talk) 18:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

How many months should someone be here before they know about DTTR and ArbCom? Levivich  17:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

In and of itself, it's not a big deal, maybe a minor red flag at most. In combination with other things, it becomes part of a suspicious pattern. Grandpallama (talk) 18:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Grandpallama, "smells a little fishy. Like a piece of dirty laundry" - how better to discredit oneself than with such insulting comments? Ridiculous. CommanderWaterford (talk) 17:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I have been keeping a general eye on the use / misuse of RedWarn as of late, and CW is one of the users that has come across my radar a few times. I am incredibly dissapointed that even in the face of what is actually quite gentle, constructive criticism, CommanderWaterford insists on reacting to aggressively, both in general and to Floq especially. CW, I'll be frank here: This cannot end well for you. If you want to remain unblocked, even a tiny sign that you're willing to accept criticism of your actions and attempt change your behaviour would be a good place to start. Otherwise, I'd like to propose a somewhat novel solution: an indef block suspended for three months subject to their use of automated or semi-automated editing tools. I think being forced to "get their hands dirty" will demonstrate if they're really interested in contributing constructively to the project. This will both help calm the pace of their edits, and mitigate their "warn first, ask questions never" attitude without wasting much more admin time. Hopefully we can make a helpful editor out of them! -- a 18:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• Yes it's nice to be gentle with people as Alfie proposes, but this editor has made it clear on their talk page that they have no intention of listening to, let alone acting on, advice, so I don't see any resolution short of an indefinite block. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• I went ahead and blocked CW, per my previous final warning and their responses here and on their talk page: if there’s a consensus to lift it here or if any other admin thinks it was a mistake it is no longer needed, I don’t mind the block being lifted. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:35, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

SantiagoRamosPhysio

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• SantiagoRamosPhysio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 146.199.83.56 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• McKenzie method (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

SPA who started engaging in personal attacks from his first edit.

As a self-described "Physiotherapist with 18 years of experience... trained in the McKenzie Method" there is an obvious COI.

COI edits:

Personal attacks:

• "Oh, so you decide which research articles are worth summarising properly and which ones aren’t? I’m so glad you’re here to protect the rest of us plebs from information you don’t agree with! You and your pals are clearly enjoying your power trip. Personally, I’ve greatly enjoyed putting you down, but I have better things to do with my life, so I'll try to think of other ways to make this right (mostly out of principle) and perhaps come back one day. Or not. Entitled trolls like you are what give Misplaced Pages a bad name. Enjoy the afterglow! You are the winningest of all the winners and not at all pathetic! (And PLEASE correct me once more because I wouldn’t want to deprive you of another orgasm."
• "You and your friends are coming across as more interested in proving your point than in cooling things down, and you seem to have absolutely no interest in actually updating and improving the article. As it stands, this Misplaced Pages page is incredibly misleading. I feel bad for the people who were trying to update it, it looks like you’ve bullied them into submission and punished them by making the article even worse than when they started trying to update it. I had no idea Misplaced Pages worked this way, it really makes me question all the other Misplaced Pages articles out there… "
• "Any neutral observer (which you absolutely aren’t, having been edit-warring this article for months)... if you’ve become the self-appointed guardian of this article, and you’re letting your pride cloud your judgment... the three of four editors that appear to be your friends who have been tag-teaming here for months... your comments make it clear that you have a HUGE interest in proving to others that you’re right, and that you know more than they do. It really does look like you’re letting your personal feelings affect your judgment, and you’re not being objective..."
• "a deliberate attempt to misinterpret the conclusions of a study, and I believe it clearly shows bias, and potentially a conflict of interest or some sort of personal agenda. Some of these editors have been edit-warring for months, which leads me to believe that they're letting their personal animosity towards the people trying to update the article cloud their judgement. The fact that someone with power is letting his personal feelings affect the information presented in a Misplaced Pages article on a scientific matter is troubling."

Clearly here to promote the McKenzie method and not here to build an encyclopedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Myers–Briggs Type Indicator

Some people seem to be unconvinced that this psychological tool is valid and repeatedly insert things such as "pseudoscientific" in the lede or categorise it as "Alternative Medicine", even though it is almost never categorised as such in scientific literature. Although the MBTI is very controversial, this does not seem to be constructive editing. --2003:CD:7F0E:F700:40A6:1EDB:B000:5467 (talk) 16:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Probably because it's bullshit - a pretty much meaningless fad that won't die, invented by a couple of blatant opportunists Guy (help!) 16:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Bingo. Grandpallama (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Apropos of nothing, my "personality types" story: as part of a class my first year of university, a guest lecturer gave us a bunch of those personality tests (to "learn about how we best work with others"), and at one point I stood up and asked the lecturer what difference it made if I was an INTJ, or whatever my enneagram value is, or any of the other "types", when the tests are so obviously gameable as to be meaningless. She responded "well of course you'd say that, you're an INTJ!" Probably the only time in my life somebody has used reasoning so circular that I was literally left speechless. GeneralNotability (talk) 18:17, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Is that a taughtology? Grandpallama (talk) 02:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Move dispute on Death of Luo Changqing / Killing of Luo Changqing

Yesterday User:Cold Season moved Death of Luo Changqing to Killing of Luo Changqing, claiming that the current page title resulted from a "bogus" page move back in February. User:Horse Eye Jack and I disagreed (see Talk:Killing of Luo Changqing, so I moved the page back to its previous title at Death of Luo Changqing. Cold Season further disagreed and moved the page again to his preferred title and stated that he was acting per WP:BRD and Horse Eye Jack or I must open a WP:RM.

I'm aware that, regardless of whether one considers the February move part of today's "revert chain", Cold Season's latest page move would be the second time he moved the page within 24 hours despite opposition from two other editors. Since there is a possible edit warring situation, and that the WP:RM process only opens up a local discussion and thus unlikely to generate a local consensus, I'm escalating to ANI. There are two questions for which we would like outside opinion:

• Did Cold Season (or I, or any other involved editor) violate WP:BRD or any other relevant policy?
• Which page title is better? Deryck C. 17:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

In my opinion this does not belong here and can be sorted out on the talk page. Perhaps the edit warring over page name needs to be addressed but I don’t think this is the forum to answer "Which page title is better?." Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

You should have opened a RM yourself, instead of implementing without consensus or discussion a move from the original "killing of..." title. You decided not to do so. --Cold Season (talk) 17:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Why edit war though? I told you before that two wrongs don’t make a right and now I’m telling you that four wrongs don’t make a right... You don’t appear to be getting the point. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Talk page disruption by a proxy

At Talk:History of English#Requested move 31 July 2020, 36.77.92.128 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) added a comment that copied a sentence from mine almost verbatim. This caught my attention as a possible attempt at creating an impression of canvassing or puppetry. Then I realized another IP from the same range, 36.77.92.121 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), had spuriously added a bunch of articles as subjects of the RM despite the OP's (Soumya-8974) intention. 36.77.93.19 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is also clearly the same person, cleaning up after 36.77.92.121.

36.77.92.121 and 36.77.93.19 test quite poorly on IPQualityScore. There clearly seems to be an attempted disruption, but I can't quite pin down what kind or by whom. But I think the range is worth looking into and should at least be blocked on the basis of being an open proxy. Nardog (talk) 18:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Knox490

Knox490 has continued to beat a dead horse into a pulp over at Talk:Stefan Molyneux for 4 days or more over the issue of Molyneux being called a white supremacist. Their essential argument being "RS are wrong" ]. Its time this was stopped.Slatersteven (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I provided ample evidence for what I maintained. I did so in a cordial manner despite some incivility of some of the discussion participants. I also invoked a Misplaced Pages rule which is designed to amicably resolve situations such as this.Knox490 (talk) 18:42, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I've been following this (as a non-participant) with some interest. Correct me if I'm wrong, Knox490, but essentially you are using an ignore all rules argument to set aside the RS SECONDARY coverage of this matter and base the article text on PRIMARY research? Newimpartial (talk) 18:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial, yes. That is correct. The mainstream press is not infallible. And in cases where they are wrong, it makes sense to do so.Knox490 (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

For the sake of cordiality, I have decided to agree to disagree on this matter and move on.Knox490 (talk) 19:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu Censorship and Overlording

Admin user Moboshgu openly likes to use their admin privileges to censor information on political figures or notably referenced quotes they don’t like without opening consensus discussions and then turns around and tries to act like the editors he censors are the ones that have to open a consensus. They abuse their position. They act as an arbitrator of truth, you can find their actions on the politician Karen Bass’s wiki page. Tired of these partisan hacks acting like arbitrators of truth by censoring completely valid and verified information they don’t want others to see or know about their pages they watch. Misplaced Pages!!! Get it STRAIGHT and NEUTRAL. People like this admin have no business being here whatsoever. Sirsentence (talk) 19:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Sirsentence, please provide diffs of the edits that you believe were improper. You also have failed to notify Muboshgu (whom I assume is the actual subject of this section) as required by the ANI instructions. Please see the red box towards the top of the page for how to do so. _signed, Rosguill 19:49, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I've checked their edits in the last 2 years on that page (4, in total). None used any admin tools afaict (that is, they're engaging as a regular editor). They removed new edits cited to Fox News. Per the recent RfC, doing this and seeking consensus on the Talk Page (where they have raised a discussion) seems perfectly legitimate. Consensus is needed to retain edits like this. In lieu of Sirsentence providing specific diffs of policy-breaking behaviour, I'm inclined to say no foul. Nosebagbear (talk) 19:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

  Nosebagbear, yeah I acknowledge my WP:INVOVLEMENT in US politics and do not act as an admin on AP2 pages, except in the cases of extreme vandalism. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• This was unwise. I anticipate a WP:BOOMERANG. First of all, I was not notified of this post, even though the instructions are clear, in red lettering, that you are supposed to notify someone when discussing them here. Second, when adding contested information to a page, the WP:ONUS is on the person who wants to add it, not the person who opposes it, to establish consensus. Third of all, I have used the talk page, at Talk:Karen Bass#Fidel Castro, and so far you have not. Finally, there is the highly POV content of your addition, seen here and here, to which I have a valid objection as even the Fox News source you use doesn't go as far in attacking Bass as your edit does. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:03, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
• How does one apply to be an overlord? Asking for a friend. Praxidicae (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• If you have to ask then you'll never be one. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• When I see accusations of "partisan hacks" concerning political topics in election years I am reminded of the parable of The Mote and the Beam. Acroterion (talk) 20:25, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

"Feminism is as bad as racism." New user Velvetlaptop looks like Dcasey98 sock

Back in March I reported this person, resulting in a block. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1005#Need more eyeballs – Amerocentric disruption from Greater Chicago. The person is strongly nationalistic, pro-American to the point of absurdity. Now they have a new username, Velvetlaptop.

The first involvement I found from this person was activity on the IP range Special:Contributions/2601:243:400:F535:0:0:0:0/64 in 2017. They shifted to the range Special:Contributions/2601:243:680:3688:0:0:0:0/64 in June 2019. Activity on the range included climate topics, pop culture topics such as music and fashion, and politics. One locus of trouble was at Stereotypes of the British in August 2019 with the person blanking a section and saying, "America gave Britain its modern musical heritage." Another trouble spot was the article 2010s in which this person said, "Fuck off. Feminism is as bad as racism. It’s a female supremacy movement that has ran unchecked for decades..."

In March 2019, the IP Special:Contributions/2601:243:400:F535:A022:89B:5556:C699 began disrupting the American popular music article, saying, "America invented punk..." This stuff was reverted, and Honethefield98 continued the disruption. Honethefield98 was found to be a sockpuppet at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dcasey98, who was also using the same range of IPs.

In February 2020, this person began using the IP Special:Contributions/73.8.230.59, tagging a bunch of global music genres as being American. This IP returned to the 2010s article to add a bunch of fashion stuff, unreferenced.

Special:Contributions/2601:243:400:F535:0:0:0:0/64 was blocked by Berean Hunter in May for a period of three years. Today, the range Special:Contributions/2601:243:680:3688:0:0:0:0/64 was blocked for six months by Widr, followed one minute later by new user Velvetlaptop picking up where the IPs left off, restoring reverted material. I have a discussion going at User talk:Velvetlaptop, but it looks like the user should be indeffed as a sock of Dcasey98. Binksternet (talk) 02:30, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. Story is not adding up. Perhaps they can offer a cogent explanation, but it's best if they were to do so in the form of an unblock request. El_C 02:44, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Flagrant Twitter Endorsements

This IP User: 209.122.10.206 continues to add Twitter Endorsements to different pages. They have been warned many times about not adding solo Twitter Endorsements. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many warnings on one talk page. Most recently I had to change back something on List of Joe Biden 2020 presidential campaign endorsements. Thank you! Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 03:19, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

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