Methodology

The Arbitration enforcement log was examined for blocks, bans, and other editor sanctions placed by administrators from 2016 to 2020 under the authority of the discretionary sanctions authorized by the Arbitration Committee as a result of the American Politics 2 arbitration case. Only restrictions placed on editors were counted, not those on articles. Each sanction as a separate action is counted separately. If an editor was given an edit restriction or topic ban, then violated that and was blocked, then returned and violated it again and was banned, those three separate events are are counted three times. If an editor was blocked or topic banned for violating AP2 restrictions based on multiple edits reported to WP:AE (including, in one notable case, 71 edits) then that one event is counted once.

Community bans are not counted, even if they were related to American politics articles, because those actions are taken under the community's authority and not the committee's. ArbCom bans were included if explicitly invoked under the American Politics 2 case or subsequent motions. Warnings are not counted as sanctions, even if the DS was invoked as a basis for the warning, because warnings do not have the effect of restricting edits through the wiki software. Probations or other irregular and custom sanctions are treated as warnings and so also not counted for the same reason.

Topic bans lifted upon appeal are not counted as sanctions. Topic bans that resulted in a block but which were lifted on appeal were counted as a sanction if the block took place before the ban was lifted. There were a small number of users blocked, unblocked, and reblocked under these sanctions. If the individual blocks were triggered by different edits or there were "new" edits that were significant evidence for further sanctions, then those were considered separate events. Rejected appeals are not counted as separate sanctions.

The time periods are divided by Presidential administration to break the 88 year time period covered by these discretionary sanctions into comprehensible time periods. The time period a sanction was assigned to is based on the edit or edits triggering sanctions. This results the an apparent anomaly that edits related to, e.g., Trump's 2016 presidential election campaign are counted under the "Obama" row and not the "Trump" row. This is inevitable given that each election cycle lasts at least 2 years and there are multiple contestants. Unless clearly otherwise indicated, edits concerning events that took place during the short January lame duck period were counted as sanctions under the following administration for clarity and because politics during this time period are almost entirely concerned with the incoming presidency and not the outgoing one. FDR's presidency was divided into pre-war and war years due to its length and the amendment request above.

Edits triggering sanctions that were to articles not about events (e.g., biographical articles, places, etc.) were treated as follows: If there was a source associated with the edit (either adding or removing) then the date of that source was used to categorize the edit. If the edit was not linked to a source or the source did not have a date then any identifiable event that the edit might have been connected to (e.g., the arrest of a person) was used to categorize the edit. If there was no dated source or identifiable event, then the date of the edit was used to categorize the edit on the basis that edits on political topics are more likely to be triggered by contemporary media coverage than historical coverage.

The data was compiled in a Google Sheets document available here.

Results

The editing restrictions, blocks, and bans placed under AP2 restrictions since 2016 greatly favor the 2016-present time period and there is almost no record of AP2 sanctions for events prior to 1993.

Initiated by Awilley at 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=999183166#Mandruss

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Mandruss and Objective3000 are cautioned against circumventing edit restrictions, even when they are right on the content, and even when this is done somewhat unwittingly.

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Awilley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Objective3000 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• El_C (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Information about amendment request

• Mandruss and Objective3000 are cautioned against circumventing edit restrictions, even when they are right on the content, and even when this is done somewhat unwittingly.

• Remove the warning to Objective3000 (leaving only a warning for Mandruss)

Statement by Awilley

This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire and the other has explicitly welcomed Committee oversight here I am. Both editors are people I respect who were acting in good faith, so I hope this can be resolved quickly and without any hard feelings or extra drama.

At issue is this statement by Objective3000 at WP:AE addressing Mandruss and the editor who filed the AE. Mandruss had been taken to AE for reverting the same content twice in 24 hrs and declining (on user talk) to self-revert. After Objective's comment, Mandruss self-reverted and Objective3000 re-reverted. (For what it's worth Mandruss was reverting content that had been recently added to the Lead that didn't have consensus on the talk page. )

El_C saw this as tag-team editing to circumvent a sanction and logged a warning for Objective3000 to that effect over my objections. I think Objective did a Good Thing in trying to resolve the problem in the most efficient way possible, and doesn't deserve a logged warning for that. Also note that the edit restriction on the article does not prohibit Objective3000, who had not made any other edits to that article in the preceding week, from reverting a revert, so O3000 did not violate any sanction or policy. ~Awilley (talk) 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: With respect, I think you're on target with the basic principles of preventing disruption, but I think you got it backwards on whether Objective3000's edit was disruptive.

• Editor A added contentious ("attempted coup d'état") material to the Lead of a highly visible BLP.
• Mandruss reverted it with a detailed edit summary.
• Editor B re-added much of the same material without providing any justification in their edit summary.
• Mandruss reverts again (violation) then self-reverts (back to no violation)
• Objective3000 reverts, restoring the status quo ante. (no violation)

So yeah, that's technically tag-teaming, but is it disruptive? What's the alternative? Leave the contested material in the article until a consensus eventually forms to remove it? That's backwards. ~Awilley (talk) 04:26, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you to the people who have spent time reviewing this. Reflecting on this over the past couple of days, I think what bugs me most is our knee-jerk tendency to classify all tag-team editing as bad. The goodness/badness of tag-teaming, just like regular reverting, depends entirely on the context. It's good when used on vandalism, BLP violations, copyvios, obviously UNDUE/POV content, and edits that are clearly against consensus. It's bad when used indiscriminately to circumvent or disrupt the consensus building process. This is why it surprises me when so few people here, including some Arbitrators, have not commented on the context. If you look at nothing else, please look at this diff (including the edit summary). I realize it's tricky to decipher what text had been added to the Lead between all those references, so here's the text itself for your convenience:

The riots and storming of the Capitol were described as insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism. Some news outlets labeled the act as an attempted coup d'état by Trump. The incident was the first time the Capitol had been overrun since the 1814 burning of Washington by the British during the War of 1812.

There was not consensus to add this content, and the wikilinks to insurrection, sedition, domestic terrorism, burning of Washington, and coup d'état seem excessive for the Lead of top-level biography. This context makes some of the comments here less than logical. User:Levivich is aware that there was no consensus to add "coup d'etat" to the Lead, as he had voted at Talk:Donald_Trump#Coup_d'etat_attempt, yet he is here criticizing Ojective3000 and Mandruss. User:MONGO cites the fact that this is a high profile BLP as reason to warn O3000, while ignoring that O3000 was the one reverting the contentious content out of the BLP. I see at least two other users here criticizing O3000 who regularly complain about how other editors use recent news to stack the articles of conservative figures with negative information. I can see why User:Black Kite might be cynical, but I think it could be chalked up to our tendency to make snap judgements without looking at context. ~Awilley (talk) 19:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@BDD: Ha! That's fair. I picked the Mandruss revert diff because of the edit summary. The Objective3000 diff is reverting basically the same thing minus the last sentence. Also a minor point of order: you say, "Sometimes, even when you're right, you need to step back and leave it to someone else. The language Mandruss removed was overly strong and UNDUE, but not the sort of obviously defamatory material whose removal justifies ignoring a 1RR restriction." I would point out that Objective3000 was that "someone else". There was no 1RR violation, as O3000 had not made any other edits to the article in the preceding week or following days.

My argument is definitely not that warning O3000 is outside of El_C's discretion. El_C can warn whomever they choose for whatever they feel like and it's within discretion. But it's problematic that the warning purports to be the result of an AE thread that had input from multiple admins. Of the 4 admins who commented in that thread, one (myself) explicitly opposed warning O3000, and two (User:Johnuniq and User:Floquenbeam expressed a general distaste for taking bureaucratic action but didn't comment specifically on O3000. (Johnuniq has now clarified here that they oppose the warning.) Only El_C supported the warning for O3000, so at best this is a close that misrepresents a consensus of admins.

A compromise outcome here that would fully satisfy me would be if User:El_C clarified in the close and in the log that the warning of O3000 specifically was under his own discretion and was not the result of the AE thread. That would make this an issue of acceptable admin discretion instead of a bad close. ~Awilley (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you El_C for doing that. Also, I apologize for having opened this without first approaching you on user talk. If I had to do it over I would have requested that, or that you re-open the thread and let someone else close. Unfortunately these options didn't occur to me until later. ~Awilley (talk) 04:42, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Objective3000

As the Eagles sang: “You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave" I was disappointed to see @CaptainEek: and @Power~enwiki: say I threw a fit and made a threat of retirement. I made no threat and had no fit. I simply put a retired template on my UTP and archived the rest so folks would know not to post. I made no suggestion of retirement in advance and no statement of my reasons. That is, no parting shot. I also decided not to file an appeal. Can’t one even quietly retire without nasty comments? I am also disappointed that @Levivich: would point to a year-old AE discussion claiming it was prior evidence of me tag-teaming. In fact, SashiRolls made a fallacious claim that five editors were tag-teaming and the result was an indef AP2 TBan for SashiRolls. Attacks against DS editors are extremely common, as can be seen by perusing the drama boards.

Now, as to the situation. DS articles absolutely must have additional restrictions. They are inundated with five-minute old, undigested news (as was the case here), fringe theories, vandalism, and white supremacists, et. al. from the Reddit site de jour spreading hate. But, these restrictions create a very difficult editing environment. Witness the resulting AP2 editor attrition from sanctions here. When six new editors appear from an off-Wiki site pushing the same POV (real tag-teaming), editors run up against 1RR very quickly. It is commonplace for an editor to request another editor make a revert to avoid a 1RR sanction. It is common to suggest a self-rvt after an accidental or iffy edit and then re-revert. I have even seen admins request reverts from other editors. (Most admins are smart enough to avoid DS articles entirely.) Further, DS rules differ by page and keep changing. That’s not a complaint. It’s a necessity.

I’ve talked to the problem. I don’t know the solution. I would suggest that RECENTISM in some form become a guideline instead of an essay. In this case, repeated attempts were made to add contentious “breaking news” to the lead of a highly viewed BLP with no consensus and no corresponding text in the body. The edit I reverted included the words insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism in a BLP about some guy named Donald. Personally, I agree with the words – but strongly believe this requires ATP discussion and some time to pass. Frankly, this was verging on a vandalism exception, which I think should nullify Mandruss’ warning. My attempt was to deescalate a situation, guide discussion to the ATP, and remove the BLP problem as quickly as possible. We must have a way to stop news from ending up in a BLP that is so new the ink is still wet.

As my retirement has been mentioned, I must say that my retirement was triggered by the sanction as a vague, logged warning along such lines makes editing in DS areas untenable. However, I also need the time IRL. So, reversal of the warning does not mean return. Not that my minor efforts matter to the project. But, I had a totally clean 13 year record, despite spending most of my time in highly controversial articles sprinkled with land mines (which usually results in acquiring some less than friendly coworkers) and would like that record back. I also think such sanctions have a chilling effect not helpful to the DS editing environment. We already walk on egg shells. Let us not weaponize them.

I would like to thank the three admins and Mandruss who have spoken out in my favor here, and apologize for the length. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Wikieditor19920: I say, get a rope.

@Black Kite: Yeah, it is ironic that my only sanction is for removing highly negative text about a man I’ve strongly disliked for a quarter of a century. Then again, I’ve removed dozens of negatives edits about him on various articles. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Incidentally, there have been 73 edits to that article since Mandruss and I reverted -- and no one has restored it or added any text like it that I can find. We must have the ability to quickly deal with contentious, highly viewed, negative BLP material -- even if the article is about Mussolini (assuming he's still dead). I still believe that NPOV is paramount, particularly in BLPs. Guess I'm old-fashioned. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: said O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread ... was based on an unwarranted inference. No, Awilley was correct. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Eggishorn: No one is treating this as the trial of the century. But, let me try to explain why this isn’t just a "Please don't do this again." I perform a huge number of reverts on many DS articles. There are two reasons for this. First, there are a huge number seriously poor edits by POV pushers, vandals, inexperienced editors, folks that want to be the first to add “breaking news”, etc. In the case of Trump, I think recent events show just how crazy some people are on this subject. The main Trump article has had over 500 edits in the last month. That is just one of the 141 Trump related articles. And that’s just one subject area in AP2. And AP2 is just one area in the DS arena. These attract an unusual number of bad edits. Secondly, I wake early in the morn when there are fewer editors around to clean up these articles. OK, the next part of the problem is that people hate to be reverted; so I make a lot of enemies. After all, if they heard it on InfoWars, it must be true. Further, there exist an unusual number of editors on these articles who have weaponized the drama boards, dragging other editors there in the hope of eliminating them. Most of these attempts fail because they simply don’t have anything to hang their hat on. This logged warning puts additional ammunition in their toolboxes. I’ve been dragged to AE, ANI, and AN3 several times, sometimes not even responding and never sanctioned. But IMO, this additional tool would make editing in the already dangerous DS areas too time-consuming and risky for my taste. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: In no way did I make a "dramatic" retirement. I made no statement. I made no threat. I requested no provisos. I simply retired using the standard template so editors wouldn't post on my UTP and wonder why I didn't respond. I decided not to appeal and retired before someone else appealed. There was no reason for me to wait for an appeal to end that I did not know would be initiated. If I say that I will not return if the record is cleaned, would that satisfy (rhetorical)? O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:35, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by El_C

After Mandruss explicitly refused to self-revert, Objective3000 proposed to them to "Self-rvt and I’ll rvt." Mandruss then self-reverted (diff), followed by Objective3000 reverting back a mere 2 minutes later (diff). Needless to say, I consider that to be inappropriate, enough to deem noting it in the log to be worthwhile. Note that my log entry (diff) noted Awilley's objection (which, honestly, I still don't really understand) as well as there being mitigating circumstances of an extraordinary nature (pertaining to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol). Finally, my AE report closure (diff), which reiterated all of that, also praised both Mandruss and Objective3000 for their long-term high-quality work at the AP2 topic area. I don't at all mind giving this particular violation a pass (makes sense), but to conclude that it wasn't actually a violation, that I cannot abide. Beyond all of that, I was sorry and quite shocked to learn that Objective3000 has retired over this. That's a serious loss to the project. My closing summary at the AE report stressed that I didn't intend for the warning to serve as a "blemish" on their "record," but I guess that wasn't enough. El_C 02:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Mandruss, even though I understand the impetus, I don't really appreciate the snark. Anyway, Awilley was the only admin to have objected, there was no admins (plural) who did. And, as much as I tried to understand his objection, it just didn't make sense to me, so I acted. Now the matter is before the Committee, which is fine. As for your repeated objections to me having cited the WP:TAGTEAM essay — again, I don't understand how that is of import. As mentioned, I made use of discretionary sanctions to interpret there to have been a WP:GAME violation, which I never argued was intentionally underhanded. But leaving both you and Objective3000 (yes, and Awilley) somehow assured that no violation has taken place, without consequence, thereby leaving open the possibility of it having repeated at some point in the future — that is a problem, I challenge. Enough for me to act unilaterally. As for it constituting a "blemish" on their record — all Objective3000 would have to do if someone were to try to use it against them would be to quote me saying that it wasn't intended as such. Which is why I said it, in the 1st place. El_C 03:23, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Johnuniq, I would not have felt it worthwhile to register a warning in the log (because it is, indeed, otherwise trivial) had it not been for both Mandruss and Objective3000 insisting that no violation had taken place. That is the crux of the matter here. My position is that concluding the AE report in such a way would have been problematic. El_C 03:53, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, not at all. Maybe I'm failing to articulate this well enough, so I'll give it another go: it just didn't feel like I had much of a choice at the time. Despite the (admittedly) good faith intent behind the action and despite the ample discussion that followed soon thereafter, I was unable to conceive how else to meaningfully express to both Mandruss and Objective3000 that proposing that one self-reverts so that the other could in turn revert back was inappropriate. They were both adamant that it was perfectly fine. And so, my thinking was that if the AE report were to be closed without emphasizing this being otherwise, then what would stop it from repeating in the future?

As your colleague CaptainEek noted in their opening sentence: it is rare that we actually see tag teaming, but this seems a pretty clear case of it. Now, if other Committee members end up subscribing instead to your interpretation of it being only a debatable alleged violation, well, that would surprise me, but I will of course respect that finding. In a pragmatic sense, it would actually probably be better for the project if the Committee were to recommend for me to rescind the warnings, notwithstanding that I'd still consider that to be a logic and policy fail. Because then, Objective3000 may come out of retirement and Mandruss may end their wikibreak early. Which, hey, to me that's better than some abstract notion of principles.

Honestly, the level of vehemence and dismay brought by the warnings took me by surprise. I did not at all see it coming. I thought I was able to draft these gently enough so as to alleviate any serious discord. Obviously not. And, let's face it, the chances that either of them would do anything of the sort ever again seems especially remote now. So, as much as I might go on about the poor example that it would have set, such a thing seems to happen so rarely among established editors, maybe it would be for the best if I were prompted to backtrack. That having been said, in the realm of logic and policy interpretation, I still don't believe I was in error. El_C 08:12, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

On the matter of this appeal being out of process, perhaps it's worth noting that, for my part, this is not a problem for me. As, perhaps, the most active admin on the AE front in the last few years (which I believe the AE noticeboard and AE log bear out), I not only welcome Committee scrutiny, I welcome extra Committee scrutiny. To me, that is an essential component of the overall WP:ADMINACCT imperative. El_C 18:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikieditor19920, it's unfortunate that you attribute favoritism to me without basis, because it's just plainly untrue. I, at least, would have acted exactly the same way had it been, say, MONGO and Atsme, instead of Mandruss and Objective3000. Which I'm pretty sure both MONGO and Atsme would vouch for (sorry for imposing, you two). El_C 22:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Bishonen, in fairness, the log entry does provide a permanent link to my AE report closure which features me saying that. But point taken. El_C 23:26, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Kevin, about converting "warned" into "advised" (the log entry actually currently reads "cautioned") — I'm happy to do that. Also fine with having both warnings vacated, as Newyorkbrad proposes (although I do note that this appeal only seeks to rescind Objective3000's warning alone). I'm just a bit hesitant to act while the discussion at ARCA remains pending. But if you recommend for me to just go ahead with that, I'll get right on it. I'm good with anything that would keep the peace. If anything, my wording about it not intending to serve as a "blemish," about noting the "extraordinary mitigating circumstances" as well as the "objections," and so on — all of that, for all intents and purposes, was actually meant to be read as more of, as you put it, an "advised" (or "cautioned") rather than as a more standard "warned" (outright). But, certainly, happy to sharpen. And if reviewing Committee members feel I, myself, ought to be warned or cautioned or advised (or however you choose to phrase it), I'll of course take such review to heart. El_C 00:07, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks for the kind words, Atsme. That means a lot coming from an editor as accomplished as yourself. El_C 22:08, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Tryptofish, that 2-way IBAN was one of the spectacular sanction customization failures that I refer to in my kitty nudge comment above. And not because it was later converted to one-way (I actually know very little about that facet of it), but because it contained this novel first mover advantage which was a particularly poorly-formed idea on my part. Oh well, live and learn. But by contrast, with respect to this AE report closure and log entry, I actually still feel that those were fairly well thought-out. Which, of course, isn't to say that I am opposed to further improving their formulation (again, happy to do it). El_C 23:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Log entry addendum (subsection for emphasis)

I'm not sure why it took me this long (pride? hurt feelings?) —and first and foremost, I apologize to both Mandruss and Objective3000, for this lengthy delay, which reflects poorly on me— but I have now added an addendum to the log entry (diff), which, as mentioned there, I hope will serve to quell any further tension. As I also note in this addendum, if there is anything else I can say or do to better facilitate peace and harmony, please do not hesitate to let me know. Thanks, everyone, for all your patience, and sorry that my response to this challenge has been less than ideal. El_C 19:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Briefly(ish), as my day is not yet done: thank you for being gracious, Mandruss. In response to your request, noting also that I just now noticed your earlier followup comment on my talk page (diff) — sorry I missed it, I just have gotten so many messages on my talk page since login out yesterday (in the double digits). Anyway, I was just about to say something to the effect that it is already being discussed by the clerks (diff), so that the request is unlikely to be closed without the contested passage being addressed. But now I see that Bishonen has removed it (diff), which was quickly followed by the clerk in question, Dreamy Jazz, reverting her (diff). Which, while it is within their rights (Dreamy Jazz as well as the other clerks), is unfortunate.

I will further emphasize that I have known you to be pretty much the preeminent editor for the Donald Trump article, and I have never picked up on there being any page ownership issues on your part (though, admittedly, my familiarity with the editing history of this most pivotal of biographies is highly limited). If anything, my sense is that the project owes you a debt of gratitude for your tireless work in that article over the years. Again, the absence of any serious evidence for the ownership claim that SPECIFICO directed toward you probably renders it an WP:ASPERSION. I won't quip over whether it should be counted as a personal attack outright, but I will note that the concluding remark to have you blocked for a month, to me, does come across as provocation. So, that is my position on the matter. Hope I was able to articulate it to your satisfaction. Sorry it has taken me so long to do so (broken record, I know). All the best, El_C 22:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Awilley, sounds sensible to me. I have updated the AE close and log per your suggestion (diff, diff). El_C 23:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Awilley, no apology needed, though I do appreciate it. If anything, I owe you an apology for the discourtesy of bluntly over-ruling you at that AE discussion rather than engaging further with you, as I should have. I also think it's important I emphasize that, while I've been critical about some of your actions (past and present), I do hope you realize that notwithstanding our various disagreements, I've always considered you to be an asset to the project and that hasn't changed. You and me — we're good. BTW, thanks for picking up the slack at the Onceinawhile AE request. As I explained to both Onceinawhile and to the filing editor earlier today, I'm a bit burned out at this point from that seemingly-endless dispute, so I appreciate you stepping in. And... good luck in being able to clear that particular minefield — you're going to need it! (I'm still around if you need me, though.) Thanks again! All the best, El_C 07:18, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by power~enwiki

This was extremely blatant tag-team editing, and I don't think a threat of retirement is a good reason to revoke the justified note they were "cautioned against circumventing edit restrictions". power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Mandruss

I fail to see how such a warning could be NOT a blemish on one's record. But who knows, here where up is down, yellow is purple, and a lone admin can issue a logged warning against serious opposition from both admins and non, while citing nothing written but an obscure essay. I'm not smart enough to understand this. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I think a good unwritten rule would be: When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behavior, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning. Such contributors should not be victims of the crazy, convoluted body of scattered, incohesive rules that our revered system of crowdsourced self-governance created and has proven utterly incapable of addressing. Sanctions should be reserved for bad faith, since they affect the editor's reputation and may contribute to future sanctions in a sort of snowball effect. This should be intuitive to any experienced editor possessing any sense of fairness.

A logged warning clearly implies fault, and there is no fault in a human mistake. A logged warning should not be a mechanism for clarification, as it has been used by El_C in this case. If the rules prevented El_C from filing an ARCA request, the rules seriously need changing. If ARCA had provided clarification for future reference without implying fault on O3000's part, I don't think he would have retired.

The appropriate action at this stage is:

• remove the warning – today
• post an apology to O3000 at their UTP (unimportant who does this, as long as they speak for ArbCom)
• proceed with clarification
• change the rules so that any editor may file a request for clarification

―Mandruss ☎ 14:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Oh boy.

• Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law' Unsupported by evidence or other editors (except perhaps Tataral, and he hasn't said that).
• I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviour You took a remarkably one-sided view of that little hatting skirmish. SPECIFICO was equally at fault there, and he acted first, but you "notified" only me. I've given this some thought and concluded that my recent well-founded public criticism of you here likely earned me a place on your shit list that caused you to read that situation in SPECIFICO's favor, giving him a pass. When I correctly informed you about your misuse of a warning template, I expect that only moved me higher on your list and exacerbated the situation. I must be more careful about whose toes I correctly step on. Happy to discuss that with you at my UTP, but I don't think this is the time or place to dissect that "incident" further.
• going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could - Clear misrepresentation, again calling into question your overall objectivity in the matter. I "went against discretionary sanctions" because I didn't understand how they applied in that case, and I think I've made this abundantly clear. I did not consciously go against discretionary sanctions, nor would I. Nobody is more careful about following the rules, and I make a concerted effort to understand them.
• ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revert Right, neither of whom cited the passage from WP:EW that El_C quoted in the AE complaint. Editors often get such "appeal to self-revert" wrong. I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE. I did not "dare" you to go to AE. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that ultimately turning out to be wrong does not prove bad faith, and Mandruss's bad faith is how you have spun this entire episode.
• the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to them All things considered, an entirely unjustified and unfair assessment in my opinion.
• (I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves) - Exactly, and that's crystal clear given that I requested a removal of O3000's warning, not mine.

I don't get how you felt it was appropriate to use this ARCA request about O3000's warning to take further swipes at me. I appreciate the compliments sprinkled throughout your distortions and unfounded criticisms, but that doesn't excuse them in my view. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:21, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO commented about Awilley: ...and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history. I can't let that go without comment. First, I'm "familiar with his history" and do not share SPECIFICO's view. And SPECIFICO has a habit of asserting widespread support for his views and presuming to speak for others to bolster his arguments. I have asked him on at least three separate occasions, spanning perhaps three years, to speak only for himself. I would ask him to modify his comment accordingly; if he declines to do so, I trust that readers will take that part of his comment for what it is. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

To be perfectly clear for the record

Except in cases where it doesn't really matter (this was not such a case), I will never self-revert merely because an editor demands that I do so, unless they are one of the few editors high enough on my respect list that I would defer to their judgment. I'm more than capable of deference, but not with just any editor. Or any two editors. It's not a vote, and two editors can easily be wrong at the same time, especially when you consider that ulterior motives are sometimes present in these things. I doubt Jeppiz would blindly comply with a demand to self-revert if it didn't seem like a legitimate demand to Jeppiz. I doubt many competent editors would, particularly at that article. There is more at stake at that article than "going along to get along".

Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz.

In my mind, my error was failing to have mastered the rules, not failing to blindly submit to the demand of two random editors. I don't expect my mind to be changed on that.

As I said at AE and here, I won't dispute my warning. But I will not have my integrity impugned without evidence. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: you should be considering the viewpoints of all editors – I did consider these editors' viewpoints. As I said above, I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE. Considering viewpoints does not mean blindly complying when you disagree with them. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm disappointed and alarmed at Jeppiz's continued attacks and failure to fairly evaluate what went on at my UTP. It's right here for anyone to review. I responded to the initial demand, If you are suggesting that this edit and this edit are the same, I suggest you take a closer look. They differ by 2,219 bytes if I'm not mistaken. It's eminently clear from that comment that I was under the impression that the edits needed to be the same content to be a violation. (Is Jeppiz suggesting that I was feigning ignorance at that point? For what purpose?) The constructive response would've been something like what El_C said at AE: reverts need not be "identical" to count as such. WP:EW is quite clear on this: in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period (bold is my emphasis). Nothing like that was said at my UTP; if it had been, I would have immediately self-reverted. Instead, off we went to AE. Again, Jeppiz is claiming that being shown to be wrong at AE shows bad faith before AE. That is simply wrong on multiple levels, including logic and ethics, and I will NEVER accept it. If the community feels that means I should be banned from Donald Trump, fine, and then I'll be considering my own retirement even more seriously than I ever have in the past. Perhaps it's time to finally put this madness behind me and find a more rewarding hobby. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive. I feel that's a serious accusation and should not be made in support of a sanction proposal without evidence. If that's allowed, I have some feelings about you that might warrant a sanction. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: And in case it wasn't obvious, I'm respectfully asking you to strike. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@El C: Thanks for the good faith effort, surely beats being dismissed completely. I'll point out the illogic in cautioning people to avoid doing things unwittingly – which requires one to know what they don't know – but I won't press the point. I won't make this particular mistake again. As for "anything else", you could do what you can to facilitate the removal of the evidence-free serious accusation against me (clear NPA vio, discussed at your UTP) before this is closed, even if the rules prevent you from fixing it yourself. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 1 ―Mandruss ☎ 21:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Johnuniq

I had commented at the WP:AE case as an uninvolved admin and had made clear my distaste for the request for a sanction. El_C was technically correct but it is very undesirable to sanction people (yes, a logged warning is a sanction) when the incident is trivial and involves an issue where they are right. Their opponents managed to press the right buttons but they were blatantly wrong regarding what should happen in the article (they were padding the lead with not-news violations, no analysis by secondary sources, and nothing in the body of the article). Objective3000 made an honest statement (that Mandruss should self-revert to remove the technical problem so Objective3000 could repeat their edit)—that reflects how all topics under discretionary sanctions are handled. The rules of the game are known by all the participants and Objective3000's only mistake was to speak out loud. Furthermore, Objective3000 made a comment about their intentions whereas the issue (tag teaming) had already been implemented by their opponents—opponent 1 had inserted the padding; Mandruss reverted it; opponent 2 repeated the first edit after cutting out some of the excess. Johnuniq (talk) 03:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Q: Does Awilley actually have standing to file this amendment request? I thought that third-party appeals were not allowed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Just want to be clear that I'm not taking sides in this, as I haven't examined the situation is any great detail. I will say, however, that I am not at all in favor of DS being deprecated, as some commenters here are urging. I think they are a valuable tool that allows the wheels to keep turning, and that Misplaced Pages would become even more of a quagmire than it already sometimes is if they were gone. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by ProcrastinatingReader

This ARCA seems to be out of process? WP:AC/DS#sanctions.appeals: Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction.

It is amusing that this discussion happens so frequently, and every time IAR is cited. IAR is useful in exceptional circumstances, but this isn’t exceptional, it’s fairly standard I think. What’s the point in a rule - one, I might add, I don’t personally think is a good one - if nobody wants to follow it? It should be scrapped. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich (O3000)

This is not a new issue. A little less than a year ago, O3000's "tag teaming" with other editors (not Mandruss) was raised in an AE report (against another editor: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive261#SashiRolls, see, e.g., my statement and Pudeo's and also discussion on Pudeo's talk page at User talk:Pudeo#Personal attack). (I believe there were other related discussions but I don't remember where they are.) It was clear to me from those discussions that O3000 and others did not believe that planned or coordinated reverting (I'm not sure how else to phrase it) was tag team editing or a policy violation. I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it. I think this might help explain why O3000 would think there was nothing wrong with his actions and why he's taking this so hard.

So, although this does appear to be a third-party appeal, it might help prevent this sort of misunderstanding from happening in the future if Arbcom, or somebody, clarified "tag teaming" and edit warring policy, e.g. whether "self-revert and I'll revert" is OK or not. I'll also echo that O3000 wasn't the only editor who repeated another editor's edits: there is also the editor who reinstated a reverted bold edit. I think it's also an open question whether reinstating-after-revert is "tag teaming" (even when there isn't explicit on-wiki coordination).

These questions matter for any page under 1RR (and frankly are unevenly enforced by admins), so Arbcom could help by clarifying what is and is not "tag teaming" at least for DS 1RR restrictions. Levivich /_hound 09:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Objective3000: I didn't claim it was prior evidence of you tag-teaming. Quite the opposite, in fact: I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it. Levivich /_hound 17:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Wow, Mandruss, I can't disagree more strongly with just about every word of your statement here. If that's what you truly believe, then I think you should be removed from that article. That's a totally uncollaborative approach you're advocating; you should be considering the viewpoints of all editors, not just those you happen to highly respect, and it shouldn't take an AE filing to get you there. Levivich /_hound 17:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mandruss: With all due respect I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. Do you get that if you had listened to those two editors you weren't familiar with, and self-reverted, that the edit would have been re-reverted by O3000, by Specifico, by myself, or someone else, and there would have been no AE, no ARCA, no O3000 retiring, none of this drama. This is all because you were stubborn, because you didn't want to listen to, in your words, "random" editors. Next time, self-revert even if you disagree because it will save the rest of us a load of trouble. I don't have to unless a wikifriend or admin tells me! is no way to be. And don't kid yourself that there are more important things at stake with this article. The world will not end if the Donald Trump article has incorrect information for five minutes, or an hour, or even a whole day. That article is often disrupted, and your actions here caused more disruption. I really hope you realize self-reverting is the best way, even if you disagree. I learned this the one time I refused to self-revert and it resulted in a shit-load of unnecessary disruption (including a short pblock), and even though to this day I think I was right, I still should have just self-reverted, and thereby saved hours of editor time. And so it was here. Levivich /_hound 17:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by MONGO

Evidence presented seems to clearly indicate that this was tag teaming on one of our most viewed pages, a BLP to boot and the warning applied was not only of the most gentle of ones, but also one of the most necessary, considering the BLP in question in particular.--MONGO (talk) 09:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Not really sure what Awilley hopes to accomplish by dragging my earnest comment in the mud and misattributing my meaning but since he had the decency to ping. Not really sure why Awilley even bothered to bring my comment up...nobody gives a rats arse what I think anyway. Did I notice they removed a questionable edit...yes, I did indeed. Does that grant them a free pass or special consideration/exemption? In my opinion, No. Is this because this is a prominent BLP...maybe. So what? Everyone have a group hug and sing kumbaya now.--MONGO (talk) 20:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Jeppiz

As the editor who made the original enforcement request, I wish to acknowledge both El_C and Awilley for their thoughtful contributions. I felt El C made a balanced call in issuing a warning but no block to Mandruss and Objective3000. I also think Awilley has made a balanced request that the warning stays for Mandruss but it dropped for Objective3000. It's not for me to comment on that decision. My concern when filing the request was that Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law', I wish to emphasize that Mandruss has made a positive contribution to Misplaced Pages and I wish they continue their good work. However, my request wasn't based on a single incident. The day before the policy violation, I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviour for (admittedly) hatting a talk page comment by a third user just because a different user had hatted theirs; I hoped a UTP discussion would be enough.
The day after, when Mandruss ignored the discretionary sanctions, I again took it to their talk page, as did a third user. Mandruss themselves more or less challenged us to go to AE ("I am not going to self-revert. With great difficulty I have stopped short of 3RR vio. If you wish to file at AE, do as you must. One of us would learn something, and learning is never a bad thing.") . This combination of hatting a third user just because they felt they could, going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could, ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revert and even daring us to go to AE combined to give the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to them. When I see Mandruss arguing here (I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves) "When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behaviour, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning.", I see the same problem that led me to file the request, the belief that 'some editors are more equal than others'.
Mandruss is a diligent editor whose net contribution is overwhelmingly positive; I hope that they stay. On a general level, I don't believe in special treatment and think the policy Mandruss suggests of letting more experienced editors off for the same behaviour that newcomers would be punished for would set a bad precedent with wider implications than this case. Jeppiz (talk) 16:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mandruss: For a short reply to your post, I'm happy to say you're mistaken. You're not on my "shit-list", nor do I have one. Your warning to me in November was correct, and I didn't take it badly at all. Quite the contrary, I took a little voluntary time-out. You were entirely right. So no, there is nothing personal here, not against you and not against Objective3000 (with whom I don't recall ever having interacted before). I've already stated I consider you a valuable and constructive editor. I do feel your interactions the last couple of days, including the latest, to be less than ideal. That is not a personal criticism (everyone has up and downs) but perhaps you might consider what I wrote and whether there might some relevance in it. Have a nice day. Jeppiz (talk) 18:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad:, what has been proposed is to vacate the warning for Objective3000 and to leave the one for Mandruss. Discussion here has focused on whether the tag-teaming also merited a warning, as that was the reason Objective3000 was warned. As for Mandruss, there is also the issue of the original enforcement request for both breaking discretionary sanctions and repeatedly refusing to self-revert when called upon to do so. Presumably this is why the proposal was to vacate the warning for Objective3000 and leave the one for Mandruss. Jeppiz (talk) 10:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm disappointed in the attitude Mandruss continues to take. Mandruss now claims that Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz. This is not true; in my effort to solve the situation at Mandruss TP, I explicitly referred to the rules, even quoted the discretionary sanctions . I won't stand for Mandruss trying to claim something else. Mandruss's entire last contribution pushes the limits of WP:AGF when they claim they were unaware. Accepting that would require overlooking that:

1. When Mandruss edited Donald Trump, they failed to notice the large box informing all users, in bold, about the policy in question.

2. When I explicitly cited the policy at Mandruss's TP , Mandruss failed to understand it.

3. When Tataral also informed Mandruss about the discretionary sanctions, Mandruss for a third time failed to understand it .

I admit to finding it hard to believe an intelligent user (and I consider Mandruss highly intelligent) really failed to notice all three times, not even think "Hm, many indications I did something wrong, perhaps I should check". Claiming otherwise is not credible. We have now had three days of bickering over this. While I think everyone can make mistakes some time, I'd also expect mature editors to accept their mistake at some point and move on. Mandruss's WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour in the three days, not least their repeated shots at me for having filed the report, is disgraceful. Jeppiz (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by SPECIFICO

There have been many discussions in scattered venues about the need to reevaluate and reform DS and enforcement in American Politics. A tiny fraction of our Admin corps volunteer their time and attention and emotional involvement to the effort. The burden on them, including the ones involved in this case, is beyond what anyone could reasonably be expected to fulfil in a consistent and effective manner. So along with lots of good work, we also have inconsistencies, errors, and omissions. As has been acknowledged, this appeal is out of process. That's not a good thing except in an urgent situation unlike this one. I hope and expect that Arbcom will address the growing concern about DS and enforcement in general by initiating an orderly and systematic review and a discussion of its options to improve the entire system. The nature of DS is that it's discretionary. El C, as one of the most active volunteers in the area, makes lots of good faith judgments nearly continually, and I see nothing to be gained by validating Awilley's second guess of an action that was clearly within El C's authority. For the avoidance of doubt, if Mandruss had done the right thing and self-reverted when asked, there were several editors, including myself, who (without any prompting) would have independently removed the offending content. Despite that, to repeat, this "appeal" is out of process and should be declined. It's further complicated by Awilley's possibly animus toward El C, who was one of the Admins and experienced editors who opposed Awilley's unilateral replacement of "consensus required" with his bespoke "24-hour BRD" sanction. Not to accuse Awilley of such motivation, but the background should have been disclosed in this filing. SPECIFICO talk 17:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@El C: I do not think anyone would suggest that you resent Awilley's actions. The appearance of animus would be in the other direction only. It is more than unusual to ask Arbcom to overturn so routine a discretionary action, and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history. Best practices is to avoid any such possible appearance -- and again, the ARCA request can be considered solely on its merits. Thanks for your note. I have never seen you personalize or improperly involve yourself in any Admin action. SPECIFICO talk 19:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread Statement by Awilley - This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire was based on an unwarranted inference unrelated to what 03000 actually posted on his talk page. So I hope this extraordinary un-warning request can be set aside. The AE warning does nothing to diminish O3000's reputation or his excellent, collaborative editorial contributions, and it was clearly explained by El C and within his discretion.

I am distressed to see Mandruss' recent remarks here. Mandruss is by far the most active editor on the Donald Trump article and talk pages, at 22% of article and 27% of article talk page participation. Those are staggering figures of concentration for so active and widely edited pages. He has done lots of useful work -- more on housekeeping than article content, IMO, which is not his forte. He knows I appreciate his contributions, even to the extent that I urged him to run for Arbcom last fall. However, I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive. His views often prevail out of his sheer persistence and willingness to pursue his views to the point that others disengage. He said on his talk page that he's willing to learn from the experience of this AE complaint, and I think a page block of a month or so might help give him the breathing room to return refreshed and ready to collaborate. SPECIFICO talk 18:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

When I posted OWN above, I felt -- evidently incorrectly -- that Mandruss's statements and behavior documented in this ARCA matter supported my interpretation that he behaves as if from a privileged position in that article of the kind referened in OWN. But I hear several editors telling me I should have provided diffs in my section, so I'll provide a few I can quickly locate. In this AE matter, the problem was created bu Mandruss' refusal to self-revert after two editors brought his violation to his attention. As he says in his section on this page, Mandruss feels he can choose to deprecate the concerns of editors he doesn't know and respect, to wit the two who informed him of his violation. I think that's not our standard. Is the dominant editor on a page privileged to reject non-preferred editors out of hand? Then we have Mandruss' trying to tell other experienced editors what to do, e.g. here, following @Valjean: to his talk page with what I consider an inappropriate tone of privilege and an expectation of control. There are the recent discussions of "coup attempt. Note that this thread does not concern placing such text in the lead, which was the subject of a November discussion, and that it was about an edit and reference that pre-dated the attack on the Capitol. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Donald_Trump#Coup_d'etat_attempt this thread, including the hatted portion. In an unrelated discussion, both as to placement RS verification and WEIGHT, there had been previous attempts to put "coup" in the lead and back in November. See Mandruss in this thread with different sourcing and facts, about content that I considered UNDUE at the time.
So what I see here is an editor who is the most active presence on the page, who has not taken the responsibility to ensure he understands the page restrictions. And in the recent "coup d'etat" discussion in the first link above, he reverts it citing a nonexistent consensus to omit, presumably based on the inconclusive lead text discussion from months ago, giving no substantive reason other than his personal assertion of "consensus". He then continues to oppose the edit at some length before finally coming to my talk page and asking how he can see the cited Washington Post article, becuase he doesn't have access. It's up to him whether a WaPo subscription is worth the $26, but it's remarkable he would feel entitled to oppose text related to sourcing he has not seen. I question whether anyone can be highly active and opinionated at the AP articles without comprehensive media access across the spectrum. So again: To me, the tone and substance of Mandruss' behavior as documented at AE and in his words on this page were, combined with his edit stats, supporting my view that he acts from a sense of privilege that I called OWN. I've provided the above in response to reactions that my view was evidence free. I may or may not be correct, but I abhor ASPERSIONS and I hope I've at least corrected that, if not convinced anyone on the merits. SPECIFICO talk 23:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Atsme

Warnings are minimal, not a biggy to sweat over. Regardless, this case exemplifies why ArbCom needs to revoke DS/AE. I'm not here to criticize any of the actions taken by individual admins or arbs; rather, I would like for ArbCom to look closer at the DS/AE monster that we've had to deal with in recent years. If behavioral disruption was the only issue, a simple admin action would have resolved the problem. If another admin felt the remedy was too severe or undeserved, then a discussion between the two would have likely led to a compromise instead of wasting valuable time here making this into a complicated case. I'm also not taking a position relative to any of the named editors in this case. I admit that I am biased against DS/AE because of what I perceive to be abuse/POV creep and what has happened to me - not that it has happened in this case. Houston, we have a problem. Atsme 💬 📧 17:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Responding to ping - I will certainly vouch for El C and add that from my perspective he is not a biased, hair-trigger admin. He applies common sense, exercises good judgment, and has done his best to comply with NPOV and BLP. I have seen him in action. I also disagree with Bishonen's characterization of CaptainEek. From my perspective, they did nothing "shameful", are not biased or overly critical. I appreciate their straightforwardness in calling a spade a spade. I am of the mind that we have a few admins who are much too close to the AP2 topic area, and may not even realize they are taking sides, or may inadvertently be subjecting themselves to POV creep. Having preconceived notions is not too unlike being prejudiced, and that is a problem ArbCom can resolve with this fresh new team, and one of the main reasons so many of us elected them to ArbCom. Perhaps a good place to start cleaning things up is with a bit of research to validate or debunk what was reported in this article and quite a few other articles online that have criticized our neutral position. I'm sure the community would appreciate a more focused ear on what DGG, and even Jimbo, has been saying over the past few years. Bottomline - this was merely a warning, and just look at the drama it created. It speaks volumes considering that so many other warnings go relatively unnoticed, and so do some unilateral, sole discretion imposed t-bans. Atsme 💬 📧 12:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

• I have a question about this amendment request after it was closed at ARCA. Per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Standard provision: appeals and modifications under Important Notes it states: While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify. Am I reading that wrong, or did miss the part that says admins are allowed to do that, just not editors? If I'm not mistaken, the discussion was closed with an issued warning to both - that was the appeal - so how can this be happening now? Atsme 💬 📧 16:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
• Barkeep49, my apologies - it went from AE to ARCA - it's so damn confusing. At least it has been noted that we are discussing warnings - that part I got. Everything else is a time sink, and I blame DS for that - DS is the disruption so site ban it. I feel bad for ArbCom and what they're having to deal with because simple remedies no longer work as a result of alliances, biases, prejudices, whatever - in a nutshell POV creep, inadvertent or otherwise. Causes & political parties aside, admins need to focus on actual disruption, not perceived - disruption does not mean an opposing view - it means disruption - basically stuff like edit warring. Leave the TPs alone - let editors discuss as long as they don't screw-up the article! If there are blatant PAs, then step in...simple. Why is it so difficult? Again, my apologies for sounding-off. Eggishorn said it much more eloguently (and that's why he's such a great closer - most of the time. 😊) Atsme 💬 📧 20:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Wikieditor19920

It's baffling that this is even up for re-discussion. The on-Wiki communications between the two editors and reversions in tandem were specifically meant to do a technical end run around WP:DS limits on reversions. Had any other user engaged in this behavior, it would've led to a sanction, but favoritism and bias lead not only to a ridiculously soft warning at WP:AE, but admins actively trying to overturn even that empty warning. The standards for conduct on Misplaced Pages are slipping towards being entirely meaningless for a small circle of editors, including Objective3000 and Mandruss, who've been editing for a sufficient period of time are friendly with the right parties. These political games and bending of the rules are what turns people away from the site. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 21:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Quite a "nice" comment from @Bishonen:, who's totally ignored whether or not the warning was justified in light of the evidence and simply attacked any editor critical of O3000. Black Kite's comment about only "conservative editors" having a problem with blatant tagteaming is equally ridiculous.

I've seen this exact same behavior of repeatedly reverting without accounting for objections from Objective3000 at other AP-32 articles, as with Mandruss at the Donald Trump article with regard to changes to the lead. To frame this open coordination in skirting 1RR as an aberration does not ring true, and the excuses being touted ("he's a great editor anyway!" "He was 'right' on the content issue!" "The only editors who have a problem with what he did have an agenda!" "He made the violation in good faith!") are embarrassingly thin. Why is it being assumed that Objective3000 was correct on the content issue? Where was the consensus to establish as much?

If any newbie editor or someone perceived as "wrong" made those excuses, they'd be laughed out of the room. But as I pointed out, this kind of stuff is too often swept under the rug for certain editors. El_C at least tried to be objective and strike a balance in the "warning," which included far too many qualifications IMO, but Awilley is refusing to even acknowledge the violation and is acting more like an advocate rather than a neutral party. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 13:58, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The defiant statement by Mandruss here confirms everything I said and worse. A few months ago, I attempted to alter wording in the lead of Donald Trump to attribute statements recently made in the press. Mandruss persistently and repeatedly reverted me and other editors who attempted to make the change, waived off objections with an air of authority and self-assuredness, and refused to engage in any collaborative discussion. This is a user who is not interested in working with others and only respects rules where they see the other editor as deserving of their respect (presumably agreeing with them). WP:NOTHERE much? This is an abhorrent attitude and behavior, and it should be completely unacceptable that Objective3000 would enable that behavior by openly tagteaming to avoid the rules.

It is shameful that some admins defend or overlook this superior attitude and conduct—some editors believe they are above the rules, and because of the bad judgment of some administrators who refuse to sanction them for it, they are right. Not only should the warning issued by El_C not be revisited, there should be sanctions for both editors on the table. Note that Mandruss committed a double DS violation here - first the 1RR, and then tag-teaming. I would attribute the 1RR to O3000 as well, since that's typically how tagteaming is viewed. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:25, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Rhododendrites

Against my better judgment, I'm editing ARCA for the first time, not because I have a strong opinion about this particular case but because I've been thinking about sock/meat puppetry a lot lately and find the way our WP:MEAT policy is being interpreted here curious.

My understanding of tag teaming, which is a variety of meat puppetry, is that it's not when one person who already edits an article in good faith tries to deescalate a situation by offering to take ownership of an edit (one which they may well have made anyway) from someone else who already edits the article in good faith.

If Mandruss went to the talk page instead of editing again and said "this edit should be reverted because XYZ, but I can't," and O3000 saw that and said "ok, I'll do it," would we still be talking about meat puppetry? It seems like standard coordination on a talk page -- the sort that's especially necessary when there are article-level restrictions. If the difference has to do only with the way O3000 phrased it rather than any practical or intentional difference, I'm not sure that's a road we want to go down. — Rhododendrites \\ 22:48, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Black Kite

I agree in thinking that O3000 was acting in good faith here. Let's face it, if another editor had reverted Mandruss's edit and O3000 had reverted back, there would be no issue here. The really ironic thing is that, looking above, there are some more right-leaning editors criticising O3000 here despite the fact that they removed excessive negative information from the lead of Trump's article. If I was a cynic, I'd say that they're basing their comments on who did the reverting rather than the actual circumstances and specific content. Black Kite (talk) 22:47, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Bishonen

@CaptainEek: Your comment implies that O3000 by posting a "retired" template 'threw a fit' and 'threw his toys out of the pram' (venerable Misplaced Pages clichés that do no credit to your sense of style). That's shameful in my opinion. If you didn't intend that implication, please take more care when you write.

@El C: You say "As for it constituting a "blemish" on their record — all Objective3000 would have to do if someone were to try to use it against them would be to quote me saying that it wasn't intended as such. Which is why I said it, in the 1st place." It would be a lot more useful to say it in the log, IMO. Really a lot. I know the log entry is already long, but you could have said it instead of "Sorry for the unusual length of this log entry", because, you know, what use is that?

The amount of assumption of bad faith towards Mandruss, O3000, El C, admins in general, and the entirety of Misplaced Pages in Wikieditor19920's comment above leaves a bad taste. Everybody can comment here, no doubt, and so we get some low-water marks. Unless an arb or clerk feels like drawing the line somewhere? Bishonen | tålk 23:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC).

Statement by DGG

This is an excellent illustration of the dilemmas that will be produced by any system that provides a first-mover (or second-mover) advantage. DS is the worst of them, but even 3RR can do that, and even our basic BRD procedure. The fairness of these systems depends upon preventing one contributor maneuvering to put the other at the wrong end of the advantage. At present any POV editor who realizes how they work can sometimes manage to do that, unless up against an equally clever opponent. Ensuring that the encyclopedia has NPOV content should not be a game of this sort. DGG ( talk ) 17:45, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

actually, DS as extended by the sort of restrictions that Awilley was at first using is even worse than ordinary DS. DS has at least some history of interpretation to clarify its meaning. Idiosyncratic restrictions by individual admins greatly widens the possibilities for unfairness and the difficulties of interpretation. (I want to recognize that Awillley is no longer using some of the restrictions that have previously been discussed) . I'm sure his motivation was an attempt to find a more equitable procedure, so it was a reasonable try at innovation-- but the reason DS has stayed around so long is that finding a replacement has not been easy. But this has been so much recently that I think there will be some suggestions. DGG ( talk ) 18:13, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement Plea for Sanity by Eggishorn

Oh for <insert deity here>'s sake, people, it was a warning! warning: NOUN 1: statement or event that indicates a possible or impending danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation. Not a sanction nor a block nor a ban. Nothing more than a: "Please don't do this again." There is no reason to treat this as the wiki-Trial of the Century and throw any of these accusations and animosities around. I wonder if this is our version of the Bike Shed Principle; we know we can't personally do much about those <insert collective insult here> in Washington/ Sacramento/ Canberra/ wherever but we can be damned sure we'll treat the project as if lives depended on our edits. Reality check: Nobody's life depends on our edits. That editors are taking them as seriously as this discussion does is way out of whack with the reality we see around us. Chill. Go outside. Take a breath. Nobody's reputation was permanently besmirched before this mess began and it shouldn't be now. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Mr Ernie

This is one of the more trivial "sanctions" I've seen in AP2 enforcement, especially for what is a clear cut DS violation. The action seems well within El_C's discretion especially given the comments of the other commenting administrators. I and others have long called for a rework of the restrictions in AP2, but until that happens they ought to be enforced evenly. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I am always astounded at Tryptofish’s ability to bring up a banned editor they used to be I-ban’d with and grave danced over, for no obvious reason or point, at many discussions they participate in. Mr Ernie (talk) 22:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish (O3000)

I've been thinking about the first paragraph of Bishonen's statement above, and I agree with what she said there. In this ARCA, there is no serious claim that O3000 is a long-term abuser who has tried the community's patience one time too many. The range of opinions goes approximately from it having been something for which a warning was justified, to it having been something where the warning should be vacated, but in any case there is a consensus that overall O3000 has been a valued member of the community. As such, CaptainEek, I'm troubled by your language about fit throwing and toys from a pram. Although I don't want to blow it out of proportion, I would ask that you reconsider the way that you said it. Misplaced Pages is suffering from a coarsening of the language that editors use when speaking of one another, and from a lack of sensitivity to when an editor is genuinely and in good faith upset. I would hope that Arbitrators would seek to set a good example. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, CaptainEek. That was well-said. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Having looked at this some more, I think it's really sad that multiple editors, and particularly O3000, have been made to feel badly because what they wanted to do was to keep to the spirit of WP:BLP when doing so ran up against the mechanical format of 1RR. It seems that en-Wiki has reached the stage where "1RR under DS is a bright line and so we must always act, no room for discretion or communication" has taken priority over "BLP means we should not keep crap in mainspace". El C, you probably remember when, at an AE (about someone whose AE history is predictably misrepresented in another statement here), you issued a 2-way IBAN to me and that other person, and told me that all I had to do was to send people who criticized me to you, and you would tell them not to hold it against me. Sounds familiar in this context, doesn't it? And AE pretty soon thereafter reversed it for me and made it 1-way. Seems like something that is becoming ripe for a re-think. I'd like O3000 to hear my good wishes to him, and El C to hear my encouragement to make the fixes he has already mentioned, and for all of us to wrap this up and treat one another better than we have been doing. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

El C, thanks for those comments, which I appreciate. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

The word "uprecedented" is often overused, but I think it applies to the current environment. People are acting in good faith, with a perceived urgency that is heightened by a political environment for which we have no templates, no past experience.

I believe the correct response here is that everybody was doing their best, and there should be no indelible consequences for any of it. IMO Newyorkbrad is exactly correct, and we should be very careful right now not to do things with lasting consequences for long-term productive members of the community who are clearly acting in good faith.

To err is human and to attribute malice virtually inescapable when it's almost impossible not to have an opinion on the content itself, as here. I am taking time out because I have PTSD and find the present real world situation almost impossible to handle, but I want to add my no-doubt superfluous $0.02 in support of an editor with whom I often disagree but whose good faith I have never had cause to doubt. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Warning of Objective3000: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Mandruss, in discussion on clerk-l an arbitrator requested that the removal be reverted. This was because admins can take action on serious violations of policy but this one does not rise to that level.Clerks and arbitrators should be the only editors editing outside their section. Admins can take action in serious cases of violation of policy, but as this was deemed not serious, the admin editing outside their section was reverted. The reversion does not endorse the statements by SPECIFICO. They should have provided diffs to support their claim, and I encourage SPECIFICO to support their claims. You may of course make your case directly to arbcom at arbcom-enwikimedia.org or clerks mailing list at clerks-llists.wikimedia.org if you wish to discuss this privately. Dreamy Jazz 22:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Warning of Objective3000: Arbitrator views and discussion

• It is rare that we actually see tag teaming, but this seems a pretty clear case of it. I am aware that tag teaming is not policy, but then again, neither is WP:NOTHERE, and yet the latter is used many times daily in enforcement. The spirit of the law is more important than the letter on Misplaced Pages. So whats the spirit of the law? To prevent disruption. Tag teaming seems to be an especially insidious form of disruption, as it uses multiple people to act almost as one to evade our usual restrictions. I wonder, would Mandruss have self reverted had O3000 not suggested they would immediately revert the edit back? I think Mandruss and O3000 are both excellent contributors, but to evade sanction by gaming the system does not sit right with me. I also note that El C went very light here. By all rights, El C could have easily blocked both of them, but opted to just give a warning. El C also took great pains to note that this warning is not meant as a blemish. And lets be honest, what does a warning really mean? Here on Wiki, it is little more than a reminder. It may make future enforcement easier, but it has little practical impact. I am also hesitant to rescind a warning merely on the basis that it made a user quit. I am sad to see O3000 driven away, and hope they will return. However, if users know all they have to do is throw a fit retire to get a sanction removed, we'll see a lot more retirement toys being thrown out of the pram. In conclusion, I don't particularly see how this warning was wrong, and am hesitant to lift it. CaptainEek ⚓ 03:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
  • To BMK's point: on a technicality, yes only subjects of a sanction can appeal. But this is already a super technical situation, and I think we can let that slide as this has brought up a novel and relevant point of contention. Also, O3000 has nominally retired (so they can't appeal), and Mandruss seems to be appreciative of this review. CaptainEek ⚓ 09:26, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
    • My comments on retirement have received a fair amount of feedback. I hope O3000 reconsiders their retirement, and my aim was not to call them out: rather the practice of the "dramatic retirement" in general. We should never take an action just to appease a retiring editor or try to get them to return. If we were to do that, then retirement could be used as leverage. I think the practice of dramatic retirement is ultimately detrimental to the project, and we should not encourage it.
    • My choice of using WP:PRAM and its wording was not particularly helpful, and have changed my statement. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
      • Decline El C has updated the log warning, and I see nothing else to be done here. The warning was well within El C's administrative discretion, even if as Barkeep points out that is not how everyone would have closed it. There has been mention of DS reform (such as Mandruss suggesting relaxing the rules on who may appeal, and mention of the first mover advantage), and I encourage folks to keep thinking about that. I also agree with Barkeep that we should encourage consensus building at AE, but that we also need to support admins in making difficult decisions. I think we will tackle DS reform this year, but this is not the time: more preparation is needed on the committee's end first. CaptainEek ⚓ 20:37, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• Awaiting further statements. My preliminary reaction is to say first I appreciate El C's, and other administrators', desire to maintain decorum and order on a difficult article at a difficult time. (I also say to El C that it may look like I'm piling onto you because we disagreed on an unrelated matter a few months ago, but it's just a coincidence, and it's my job to comment here.) On the substance, I believe Objective3000 was acting with good intentions and in good faith, and as El C himself observes, Objective3000's overall editing history is a positive one. El C also observes that any violation by Objective3000 took place at least "somewhat unwittingly." I consistently believe that discussion rather than a logged sanction, even a warning, is the better approach for a first, debatable alleged violation by a good-faith editor with a record of positive contributions in the topic-area. Subject to others' opinions, I am inclined to recommend that El C consider withdrawing the warning. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Still awaiting further comments, but I'm inclined to move to vacate the warnings. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
  • After reviewing the further discussion, I vote that both warnings—even as modified by El C, which I appreciate—should be stricken from the log. However, I'm not going to make a formal motion to do that unless at least one other arbitrator agrees with me. After all, it wouldn't help alleviate the demoralization that the warnings have caused if a motion to vacate them were voted down 1 to 11. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
  • (As a side comment, I note that the useful discussion we have had here wouldn't have been possible either in RfAr or on AE because of rigid the word limits in those locations. There may be a lesson there, to be learned another day.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
• I think an appeal by an uninvolved admin who participated in an AE discussion is allowed - I think to say otherwise would be to further cement a first mover advantage. Considering what obligations admins have to achieve consensus is at the top of my priority list when this committee examines DS but I don't see any issue in how El C handled this under our current procedures. The formal warning is a reasonable outcome of that thread even if it isn't how I'd have closed it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:05, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

  @Atsme: I'm confused by your most recent ARCA comment. This hadn't been appealed to the committee before. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

  @Awilley: you are correct that there is tons to read as an arb (especially in January). Alas if only the issue here was I hadn't read everything - I did examine the diffs before making my comment. Ultimately I think for discretionary sanctions to work ArbCom needs to support administrators who are making reasonable use of their discretion. So I would not have personally warned these users and whatever comment I left I would not have formally logged. However, as an arbitrator hearing an appeal I think it would be counterproductive to substitute my judgement as long as the administrator acted with-in reasonable boundaries. I do not see El C having acted against consensus of other admins, namely because one hadn't formed, in closing this report with a warning. Our current procedures do allow for an admin to close AE requests in these circumstances. So the question, for me, becomes whether this action is with-in the bounds of normal administrator latitude. For me the answer is yes. Personally, I would like to see more of an obligation at AE for administrators to form and act with consensus when closing reports but for that to happen we need to do our broader look at DS. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• A few thoughts: Normally, Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Standard provision: appeals and modifications) In this case, and in other cases where an uninvolved administrator at AE who voiced disagreement with the action taken brings us an ARCA appeal, I am inclined to disregard this provision and consider the third-party appeal. I'm willing to formalize this into our procedures if need be, but I'd prefer to wait for broader DS reform. Because this appeal was not brought by Objective3000, if we decline this appeal, the provision that "further substantive review at any forum is barred" should not apply.Objective3000 did not violate the restriction was written. However, AMPOL is a DS area, and on the whole, it was not an abuse of administrative discretion to conclude that coordination to circumvent a 1RR restriction (even if well-intentioned) is inappropriate.Previous committee decisions at ARCA have established that this committee will generally only reverse sanctions for abuse of administrative discretion, or something at that approximate level of review, absent exceptional circumstances. This is necessary because AE is designed to reduce the load on this committee – imagine if every AE sanction was appealed here – and so ArbCom acts mostly as a safety valve, not as a venue of first resort. Therefore, absent exceptional circumstances, we should not overturn this warning.Administrators should not act contrary to a clear consensus of their colleagues at AE. I don't know if the consensus in this case was clearly against the warning – a warning itself is a very light sanction. (According to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Dismissing an enforcement request, a warning is actually not a sanction; it counts as "no action".) Overall, I don't know where I come down on this appeal. If El C downgraded this to "advice" ("Objective3000 is advised to ...") I would decline this appeal for sure. Right now, I'm inclined to decline this appeal without prejudice towards an appeal at AE or AN, but of course that strikes me as grossly excessive bureaucracy. It may be a good push to make explicit in our procedures that appeals to ArbCom via ARCA are generally assessed deferentially to the enforcing administrator (to reduce the number of appeals that are unfortunately resolved on procedural grounds), and that appeals from sanctions imposed at AE can still be appealed at AE (especially if administrators at AE were opposed to the original sanction). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I also want to note to Objective3000 that I deeply appreciate your work and am sorry that you've been caught in the crosshairs of an ARCA that I would resolve mostly on procedural grounds. An AE warning does not reflect on the quality of your contributions to this area or to the project, and my sincere hope is that this warning will not continue to discourage you from editing. If you need to take a break from Misplaced Pages, I completely understand – but I look forward to seeing you back when you're up for it. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:50, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
    • Insofar as this request is not already withdrawn (Awilley seems to indicate they are satisfied), I would decline to take action on this appeal as the underlying action falls within administrative discretion, with thanks to all for accommodating this process. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 10:39, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
• Largely "per Kevin". This is much ado about very little, and what little there is was well within administrative discretion. El C has been transparent about not wanting this logging to constitute a stain on Objective3000's record, and I appreciate the willingness to further moderate the language in the log. I'm inclined to decline. --BDD (talk) 21:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

  @Awilley: I was aware of the context, but don't begrudge your request for further comment. Besides echoing Barkeep's response, I'll say that a high-profile BLP is indeed a reason for everyone to act more cautiously. The language on the article has settled to something acceptable, and that's just how the encyclopedia works. Sometimes, even when you're right, you need to step back and leave it to someone else. The language Mandruss removed was overly strong and UNDUE, but not the sort of obviously defamatory material whose removal justifies ignoring a 1RR restriction.

While I really wish we could leave this at "so inconsequential that normally would ignore it", I'll leave the door open for you to elaborate on why a diff showing a removal from Mandruss would be your preferred "if you look at nothing else" in a request to remove a warning to another editor. I want to keep an open mind here and to acknowledge that there may be angles I haven't considered, but I think there's a very steep hill to climb if you're trying to argue El C's action wasn't within the acceptable bounds of an administrator's discretion. --BDD (talk) 21:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Formally decline now that it appears we're at a satisfactory resolution. --BDD (talk) 15:21, 14 January 2021 (UTC)