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Talk:Aslan Karatsev

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Russian-Israeli citizen

Aslan Karatsev is a dual citizen of Russia and Israel as he holds both passports. All sources point to this fact in reputable news papers. Please bear this in mind before further deletion of other people’s contributions.

The relevant articles can be found in: The Times of Israel, The New York Times and others.


Thank you Dont belittle245 (talk) 07:19, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Have you got other sources beside Israeli/Jewish? --User:Tomcat7 (talk) 08:08, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if the sources are either Jewish or Israeli. They are reliable and saying otherwise is quite offensive to Jewish people. That said, the New York Times also has said this. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 22:09, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
And I can give you way more reliable sources stating that he's Russian.
- 祝好，Sinoam 22:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Look at Naomi Osaka. She is referred to as Japanese-American even though she plays for Japan. Same thing should be done with Karatsev and he should be described as Russian-Israeli. See Jerusalem Post "Russian-Israeli tennis player Aslan Karatsev makes Australian Open history." Or the Forward "Russian-Israeli tennis player Aslan Karatsev makes history at the Australian." Ebene Magazine: "Russian-Israeli in the Australian Open quarters." Further, the sources you provide do not DENY that he is Israeli. Just state that he is Russian. You wouldn't say Naomi Osaka is not American because some source does not say she is American. , , Pennsylvania2 (talk) 23:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
@Pennsylvania2: Huh? The lead is referring to Osaka as a "Japanese professional tennis player." What are you talking about. And no, my sources do not DENY that he moved to Israel and left but they consider the fact that he is Israeli to be of LITTLE significance. Who cares if he is Israeli? He played for Russia in the ATP Cup. His flag is Russia in the tournaments he play in. Adding Israeli is going to confuse readers of who he represents. Plus, I can't trust these sources you put out if they're all Israeli saying that he is Russian-Israeli while all the other sources from around the world say he's Russian. And it's not RT that states this, but Western news outlets AND Eastern news outlets like Xinhua as well. - 祝好，Sinoam 23:14, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
The most compromising solution I can give you is have the first sentence be "Karatsev is a Russian professional tennis player of Israeli/Jewish descent." I'm not moving beyond that. - 祝好，Sinoam 23:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

RfC on referring to Karatsev as "Russian-Israeli" or "Russian" in the lead

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Should the beginning sentence of the lead refer Aslan as "Russian-Israeli" or "Russian?" - 祝好，Sinoam 14:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Background

Recently, there has been an editing conflict in regarding 2021 Australian Open tennis player Aslan Karatsev as either "Russian" or "Russian-Israeli." Pennsylvania2 and Dont_belittle245 are backing the phrase in the first sentence of the lead to be "Karatsev is Russian-Israeli professional tennis player." I'm backing the phrase to be worded as "Karatsev is a Russian professional tennis player of Jewish descent/Karatsev is a Russian professional tennis player of Israeli descent." Pennsylvania2 has given sources backing why Karatsev should be referred to as Russian-Israeli with these sources: 

* Forward | https://forward.com/fast-forward/464197/russian-israeli-tennis-player-aslan-karatsev-makes-history-at-the/
* Times of Israel | https://www.timesofisrael.com/russian-israeli-reaches-australian-open-semifinals-in-fairytale-grand-slam-debut/
* Jerusalem Post | https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/russian-israeli-tennis-player-aslan-karatsev-makes-australian-open-history-659197

Pennsylvania2 and Dont's reasoning is that Karatsev has both Russian and Israeli citizenship. However, Tomcat7 and I noticed that most of these sources are based in Israel or pro-Jewish and stated they because of their bias, they cannot be relied on in this scenario. I also noticed that dual citizenship was not mentioned but is backed by the titles and the fact that Karatsev, born in Russia, moved to Israel when he was young, but he also moved back to Russia a few years later. Pennsylvania countered that ousting these sources because they are all Israeli-based is anti-semitic. In my opinion, I believe that Karatsev should be labeled as a Russian tennis player because he represents Russia in tennis. He played for Russia in the 2021 ATP Cup. In the games he played, he has a Russian flag in the scoreboard. The fact that he has Israeli citizenship has little significance and adding "Russian-Israeli" would confuse readers on which country he represents. Regarding dual citizenship, several tennis players come into mind. (Daniil Medvedev's residence is in Monaco but he is not regarded as "Russian-Monacan professional tennis player" in the lead. Maria Sharapova now lives in the United States but is not regarded as a "Russian-American former professional tennis player.")*

Here are sources that prioritize Karatsev being Russian.

I was told these examples were not good according to Tomcat which is why I put them in parentheses.*

If you support using the "Russian-Israeli" term, type Support. If you support using just "Russian", type Oppose. - 祝好，Sinoam 01:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Polling

  • Oppose - For reasons stated above. - 祝好，Sinoam 01:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Support - Karatsev has an Israeli passport as stated in the Jerusalem Post, The Forward and the Times of Israel. This differentiates him from Medvedev and Sharapova because he holds a passport, which actually makes him a citizen unlike them. However, players who are actually are dual citizens have both nationalities listed. See Alex Bogomolov Jr., Steve Krulevitz and Aravane Rezaï. Furthermore, to say that the sources are unreliable because they are "Israeli" or "Jewish" is unfounded. There is no proof they are not reputable and to say otherwise is anti-semitic. , , . Karatsev was also offered a spot on Israel's ATP Cup team. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 02:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Support - There are players like Daniel Prenn who has all four of his nationalities in the lead. Naomi Osaka gave up her American citizenship in accordance with Japanese nationality law so that is why she is listed as simply Japanese. Also, Maria Sharapova is not an American citizen and neither is Medvedev a Monégasque citizen. Thus, they are not described as American or Monégasque. Tim70cs (talk) 04:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose as above. For athlete articles we should stick to the country he plays for; he is known as a sportsman who plays for Russia. His parents may moved to Israel when he was three, but that does not mean anything. Perhaps he holds an Israeli passport, but that does not make him an Israeli tennis player. He has just never played under the Israeli flag. Aforementioned examples are not good; e.g. Bogomolov actually played under the Russian and then under the American flag - that's why it is stating in the lead. There are many sporstpeople with dual citizenship, such as Evgeni Malkin, where in the athlete's article it is not even mentioned anywhere in the English version as far as I see (while in the Russian version it is mentioned in a person life section).--User:Tomcat7 (talk) 06:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Tomcat7. Even when Naomi Osaka was an American citizen, the lead did not describe her as American because she never represented America in competition (there were 2 RFCs on this). As Karatsev has always represented Russia, he should simply be described as Russian in the lead. Iffy★Chat -- 10:54, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Karatsev can be considered an Israeli national because of his upbringing there, family connections, the fact that he is an Israeli citizen, and fluently speaks Hebrew. He is not really "of Jewish/Israeli descent" so there is no point adding that phrasing. As an aside I believe Naomi Osaka is just as much American as Japanese and that should be reflected in the lead to that article, but that isn't under discussion here. Piddle (talk) 05:57, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose Born in Russia, lives in Russia, plays for Russia. Another tennis player, Bianca Andreescu, has a similar background, where she was born in Canada to Romanian parents, moved to Romania for a few years where she started playing tennis, and moved back to Canada which she now represents. She is described as a Canadian in the first sentence. Her Romanian roots and her connection to the country are mentioned further down in the lead, but not in the nationality sentence. That is despite the fact that plenty of Romanian sources describe her as Romanian or Canadian-Romanian. I think this is the right way to handle this. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:35, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Support per Pennsylvania2 - Idealigic (talk) 14:54, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

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