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Korean connection
I believe this paper http://contents.nahf.or.kr/directory/downloadItemFile.do?fileName=jn_009_0010.pdf&levelId=jn_009_0010 may help to explain or suggest a possible connection that Koreans were allies or part of them were members of the Xiongnu Confederation 138.36.44.72 (talk) 23:52, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- The link doesn't work (connection timed out). Ratata6789 (talk) 01:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- i know im late but i think this could work :v http://contents.nahf.or.kr/directory/downloadItemFile.do?fileName=jn_009_0010.pdf
- i noticed the link didnt work in PC when i posted it, but when i opened it in my phone it worked and dowloaded the pdf, it should work now
- hope you see this 138.255.51.11 (talk) 16:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- The link still doesn't work on my PC (in French : "Sans titre")
- Rishāringânu 16:46, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
To Interpret or to Mis-Interpret
Four sources are listed to support the thesis that
- Hucker, Charles O. (1975). China's Imperial Past: An Introduction to Chinese History and Culture. Stanford University Press. ISBN 0-8047-2353-2. page 136
- Pritsak, O. (1959). "XUN Der Volksname der Hsiung-nu". Central Asiatic Journal (in German). 5: 27–34.
- Henning, W. B. (1948). "The date of the Sogdian ancient letters". Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies (BSOAS). 12 (3–4): 601–615. doi:10.1017/S0041977X00083178. JSTOR 608717. S2CID 161867825.
- Sims-Williams, Nicholas (2004). "The Sogdian ancient letters. Letters 1, 2, 3, and 5 translated into English".
Let's evaluate:
- On p. 36 of Hucker (1975), it is written "The proto-Turkic Hisung-nu were now challenged by other aliens groups". So Hucker (1975) is correctly interpreted as supports the thesis that the Xiongnu were proto-Turkic speakers
- Sims-Williams (2004) translated Sogdian Letters 1, 2, 3, and 5. Letter 2 mentioned the Huns (i.e. Xiongnu) yet letter 2 did not say that the Xiongnu spoke a Turkic language at all. Whoever added Sims-Williams (2004) misinterpreted the source for pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
- Nowhere in Henning (1948) are the Xiongnu / Xwn asserted to be as Turkic speakers. The word Turkestan is found in page 602, footnote 1 "Cf. Bartold, Turkestan, p. 161", a source which Henning uses to support this assertion "No doubt the agents of the 'merchant-princes" of Sogdia' ". Again, whoever added Henning (1948) misinterpreted the source for pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
- Pristak (1959): :
- in n. 24 on p. 32, mentions Ottoman-Turkish term for the Zaporizhian-Cossacks;
Es ist deswegen möglich, daß man -yü als einen chin. Spottnamen für ihre nomadischen Nachbarn, etwa 'Brei(esser)' nach der Hauptnahrung derselben zu deuten hat. Vgl. hierzu die osmanisch-türkische Bezeichnung für die ukrainischen Zaporoger-Kosaken Potqalï ,,Grützenbreiesserʽʽ (s. darüber Pritsak. Oriens , Bd. 6:2. 1953. 204). Verl. hierzu noch Anm. 25"
- Rough translation:
Yet this is irrelevant to whether the Xiongnu spoke Turkic.It is therefore possible that one has to interpret -yü as a Chinese derisive nickname for their nomadic neighbours, as 'porridge(-eater)' after their staple food itself. Cf. the Ottoman-Turkish designation for the Zaporizhian-Cossacks Potqalï ,,Groat-porridge eaterʽʽ (see above). (See on this Pritsak. Oriens, Vol. 6:2. 1953. 204). See also Note 25"
- In n p. 29 Pritsak wrote:
5. Die in den ersten chin. Reichsannalen „kanonisierte" Bezeichnung für die (asiatischen) Hunnen 匈奴 Hsiung-nu ist nicht alt. Sie ist erst ab etwa 230 v. Chr. belegt. Sie gehört zu den Bezeichnungen der zweiten Gruppe. Das zweite Zeichen 奴 -nu pflegte schon Otto Franke entsprechend seiner chin. Bedeutung als ,,Sklaven, Knechteʽʽ zu übersetzen.
- rough translation:
The designations "canonized" in the first Chinese imperial annals for the (Asiatic) Huns 匈奴 Hsiung-nu is not old. It is only from about 230 BCE. It belongs to the designations of the second group. Otto Franke used to translate the second character 奴 -nu according to its Chinese meaning as "slaves, servants".
- For note 10 Pritsak cited:
Beiträge aus chinesischen Quellen zur Kenntnis der Türkvölker und Skythen Zentralasiens (Berlin 1904), 5; Geschichte des chinesischen Reiches, Bd. 1 (Berlin-Leipzig 1930), 134
- Rough translation:
Contributions from Chinese sources on the knowledge of the Turkic peoples and Scythians of Central Asia (Berlin 1904), 5; History of the Chinese Empire, Vol. 1 (Berlin-Leipzig 1930), 134
- Yet Pritsak did not explicitly mention the the Xiongu were Turkic speakers.
- So again, whoever added Pritsak (1959) misinterpreted the source for pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
- in n. 24 on p. 32, mentions Ottoman-Turkish term for the Zaporizhian-Cossacks;
Genetics section clutter
Is the genetics section cluttered? I believe it is. Huge paragraphs are dedicated to primary source material about haplogroups such as R1a1a1b2a2-Z2124
and such encyclopedic and digestible language as "early/Xiongnu_west" related to Scythians, "early/Xiongnu_rest" with more Northeastern Asian ancestry and "late/Xiongnu"
. IMO, this section could use organizing, condensing, and more reliance on secondary sources, rather than a card catalogue of primaries describing individual specimen haplogroups. Very little will be fully understood by laypeople from the current genetics section. - Hunan201p (talk) 23:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
"A genetic study published in the American Journal of Human Genetics in July 2003 examined the remains of 62 individuals buried at the Xiongnu necropolis at Egyin Gol in northern Mongolia. The examined individuals were found to be primarily of East Asian ancestry."
- Yeah, no. This refers to mtDNA haplogroups only, not autosomal or combined uniparental ancestry. If the quote in the inline didn't make that clear enough, here is a secondary source:
"The genetic analysis performed by Keyser-Tracqui et al. (2003a, 2003b) found that the majority of the Xiongnu mtDNA sequences belong to predominately Asian haplogroups, however a few (11%) belong to predominately Europeans haplogroups."
- Hunan201p (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Order of ethnolinguistic origins (theories)
- Huns, Turkic, Mongolic, Yeniseian, Iranian, Multiple ethnicities, Language isolate
Does the order represent the strongest theory to the weakest one? For example, Mongolic theories >> Yeniseian theories? Or Iranian theories >> Multiple ethnicities? Or it's just random placed headings? --Mann Mann (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Mann Mann: The old order was surreptitiously changed months ago by a known article defacer. The current descending ranking does not reflect scholarly consensus on probability. This part of the article should be reverted to the pre-troll state. Happy holidays. - Hunan201p (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree. The section and its sub-sections should not violate WP:WEIGHT, and the order of theories should not be something random. Thank you, happy holidays to you too! --Mann Mann (talk) 18:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
Saksanokhor belt plaque
पाटलिपुत्र recently restored an image of a golden belt-buckle from Saksanokhur, Tajikistan, which I had previously removed, per a talk page discussion at Talk:Huns in which there was no clear consensus that the object represented a Xiongnu.
The creator of that discussion was Mark Palo.Alto/Dirk0001, a banned sockmaster. पाटलिपुत्र has essentially revived their selective interpretation of the source, which does not support a "probable" Xiongnu origin and also mentions several ethnic attributes depicted on the buckle, which are associated with the Yuezhi, Saka, Pazyryk culture, etc, rather than Xiongnu. For example the cited reference from Francfort says We note on the one hand that the tail of the horse is taken in a sheath, like those of the mounts of the steppe riders and that we notice in the Altai (in the kurgans of Pazyryk, Berel' and others) and on the coins of the Indo-Scythians and Heraos 68."
and the four comma-shaped ornaments of the boar's mane, intended to receive inlays, of turquoise for example, reinforce the analogies with Tillya Tépa and the art of the steppes up to that of Khokhlatch..."
. The author also said the details of the realia (harness, costume, hairstyle) are nevertheless unquestionably steppe, of the Xiongnu type or Yuezhi (?)
, which further attests that this is object and its depiction are ethnically ambiguous, possibly but not probably belonging to the Xiongnu or the Yuezhi.
Furthermore, no other source seems to link this object to the Xiongnu, while plenty have made other attempts to link it to the Saka or Yuezhi, notably by its relation to the Orlat plaques:
From Sims, 2002, page 9:
10. "The Boar Hunter," gold repoussè belt buckle from Saksanakhur in Northern Bactria, first century However, objects bearing similar themes have been widely diffused, both west of Iran and east of the country, where they appear in conjuction with typically nomadic features, such as the horn plaques and buckles with engraved decoration recovered from a nomad grave in Orlat, in Sogdiana. The buckles have intricate and crowded figural scenes, on which fighting and hunting episodes include neither kings nor heroes, whereas the latter are the primary and almost indispensible subjects of epic tales and thsir illustrations. The simple representation of fighting or hunting, devoid of epic or historical content, must also have been thought to bring good fortune to the hunter-warrior, for finds from Bactrian locations include a gold buckle decorated with a nomad horseman spearing a boar, from Saksanakhur (Fig. 10) and a horn plaque with several hunters on horseback shooting at wild rams, found at Takht-i Sangin...
From Ilyasov, 1998 p.127:
A relevent item for iconographical comparison is the cast gold belt-buckle, representing the hunting of wild boar, found in Saksanokhur, South Tajikistan In our opinion, the data on the structure and orientation of the burial, the most likely orientation of the deceased , the armament type as well as the analogies with the armour from Khalchayan and the golden buckle from Saksanokhur complement the information given by the scabbard slide and confirm our datation of the Orlat plates.
From Gruber et. al 2012, p.367:
Another example would be the belt buckle from Saksanokhur (Southern Tajikistan). Cast in solid gold it is dated to the 1st-2nd centuries AD.29 Here too, a cymatium serves as orna- mental border surrounding a mounted warrior hunting a boar with a spear (Fig. 22). 29 Shedevrÿ 1983, 34; Zeïmal’ 1985, 117; Hansen et alii 2009, 343, No. 222.
From Olbrycht, 2015 p.340:
The phalerae on the Orlat plates are like the ones on the Saksanokhur buckle (1st–2nd centuriesCE; Ilyasov 2003, 286). A connection between the Orlat plates and Kangju, a nomadic dominion with a Saka substratum, but under a strong cultural influence from China, is clearly discernible (Ilyasov 2003, 296–299). In the 1st and 2nd centuries CE Sogdiana was under Kangju domination.
...note also that all 4 of these sources say that this belt buckle is from at least the 1st century AD. Gruber, Ilyasov and Obrycht all say it is from the 1st-2nd century AD, and Gruber cites 3 other authors to this effect. पाटलिपुत्र says that this belt buckle is from the 2nd-1st century BC, but like the interpretation that it is "probably" Xiongnu, this is definitely mistaken.
It is really clear from Francfort and the sources I've posted here that this is an ethnically ambiguous depiction of dubious origin. It is also dated to the era when the Xiongnu empire was dead and gone. I don't understand why anyone would want to use this picture as a "probable" Xiongnu depiction, when the sources are so vague and uncertain of its provenence, especially when so many of them tentatively link it to non-Xiongnu cultures, without relating it to the Xiongnu at all. - Hunan201p (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @Hunan201p:. None of your sources seem to make any particular assertion regarding the culture to which the horserider belongs, besides describing him as a nomadic horseman. The parallels with the Orlat Plaques are rather anecdotal. For my part, I have been following Francfort, Henri-Paul (2020). "Sur quelques vestiges et indices nouveaux de l'hellénisme dans les arts entre la Bactriane et le Gandhāra (130 av. J.-C.-100 apr. J.-C. environ)". Journal des Savants: 35–39. to the letter, in writing the latest caption ("Probable Xiongnu-related horserider, hunting a boar. The rider wears the steppe dress, his hair is tied into a hairbun characteristic of the oriental steppes, and his horse has characteristically Xiongnu horse trappings"). Francfort writes:
- "A renowned openwork gold plate found on the surface of the site depicts a wild boar hunt at the spear by a rider in steppe dress, in a frame of ovals arranged in cells intended to receive inlays (fig. 14). We can today attribute it to a local craft whose intention was to satisfy a horserider patron originating from the distant steppes and related to the Xiongnu" (French: "On peut aujourd’hui l’attribuer à un art local dont l’intention était de satisfaire un patron cavalier originaire des steppes lointaines et apparenté aux Xiongnu.")
- "We can also clearly distinguish the crupper adorned with three rings forming a chain, as well as, on the shoulder of the mount, a very recognizable clip-shaped pendant, suspended from a chain passing in front of the chest and going up to the pommel of the saddle, whose known parallels are not to be found among the Scythians but in the realm of the Xiongnu, on bronze plaques from Mongolia and China" (French: "les parallèles connus ne se trouvent pas chez les Scythes mais dans le domaine des Xiongnu").
- "The hairstyle of the hunter, with long hair pulled back and gathered in a bun, is found at Takht-i Sangin; it is that of the eastern steppes, which can be seen on the plates wild boar hunting “des Iyrques” (fig. 15)"
- The proposed date (2nd-1st century BC) is given p.39 by Francfort. I note that other authors tend to give 1st century AD - 2nd century AD dates, but since the Xiongnu existed until circa 155 AD, none of the dates given by these authors are in contradiction with the Xiongnu hypothesis anyway... you cannot say "It is also dated to the era when the Xiongnu empire was dead and gone"...
- Francfort is the most recent (2020) and one of the most authoritative of our sources here. Maybe we could attribute his opinion if you wish, and explain that most authors simply present him as a rider of the steppes, and that there are slight variations in the datation... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
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