This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tropicalkitty (talk | contribs) at 19:24, 25 January 2024 (Undid edits by 67.59.84.226 (talk) to last revision by Hexifi: Off-topic). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 19:24, 25 January 2024 by Tropicalkitty (talk | contribs) (Undid edits by 67.59.84.226 (talk) to last revision by Hexifi: Off-topic)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Cuba article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23Auto-archiving period: 3 months  |
 | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
 | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Cuba. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Cuba at the Reference desk. |
 | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
 | Cuba was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
 | Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on October 10, 2004, and October 10, 2005. | |||||||||
 | This  level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
.svg){kind=small}
 | Other: old GA nominee; On this day (2005); press notices; American English | ||
| |||
 |
|
Human Rights section in need of review; who wrote this?
Torture and weird sources
First of all, simply writing "The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions" is not sufficient without mention of proper sources, for example NGO's or some recognized polity. I could accuse Norway of torture right now, so? What is this source supposed to be? http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Cuba67sp/indice.htm It is dated 1967? Surely something more recent should be found, otherwise the section might aswell be moved to "history of Cuba" Torture? Extrajudicial executions? I can't find any mention of these in recent reports. Not even the US state department claims the Cuban government practices torture or extrajudicial execution. Here is the recent report by human rights watch https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/cuba#3159b0 It does not mention torture, sexual abuse of inmates or extrajudicial executions. Those parts should be removed or changed to include what time this accusation was made.
Needs update
Cuba had the second-highest number of imprisoned journalists of any nation in 2008 (China had the highest) according to various sources, including the Committee to Protect Journalists and Human Rights Watch
Here it is mentioned that the statistic stems from 2008, which is good. But this statistic is kind of useless other then mentioning a previous condition. It missrepresents Cuba for the average reader. Cuba did not even make the list of this 2018 ranking for imprisoned journalists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/12/13/where-the-most-journalists-are-imprisoned-worldwide-infographic/?sh=1b693b336332 The situation of journalists in Cuba is still under scrutany, but for different reasons. For example HRC writes: Cuba has the “most restricted climate for the press in the Americas” according to a 2019 Committee to Protect Journalists report.
WP:POV?
The section does not balance out the negatives with the positives, such as information about Cubans access to healthcare, free abortions and school etc. Accusations from 70 years ago are being represented as if they are currently being made (torture and executions)
recomendations
1. Remove claims of torture and extrajudicial executions from the first sentence 2. Mention were all accusations come from and source it 3. Remove the part about sexual abuse of inmates 4. Update section to represent current conditions. 5. Extend the section about the media with more information and remove the part about imprisonment of journalists.
-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herooow (talk • contribs) 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Democratic Pluralist Ideology
Many edits are confusing democracy with partisan or pluralist democracy. Single party democracies exist *prior* to our own ideological beliefs on what the correct form of democracy is. Democracy is not pluralism of *parties* (partisanship) but the pluralism of *participation* in the form of *voting*.
People vote in Cuba, have elections, and change policies at local, regional, and national levels. Recently, they even rewrote their constitution starting at the grassroots level. It is, regardless of ideology, a literal democracy. Nraisbeck (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- "rewrote their constitution starting at the grassroots level"?? The Cuban constitution ascribes the role of the party to be the "leading force of society and of the state". Did the party stand aside while the grassroots did whatever they wanted?? Unlikely.--Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- "Democracy is when billionaires entirely control all major political parties, allowing roughly half the populace to choose which spokespeople they would prefer to explain the decisions of the ruling class; freedom of the press, similarly, is when billionaires control the media." — American Rich Guy Burger Foundation, 100% Not Funded By Nazi CIA Cutouts Bobs34724 (talk) 18:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree, Cuba is very clearly a democracy, but it doesn't fit the very narrow definition of democracy that the United States lays out. The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 23:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Reliable sources disagree. X-Editor (talk) 23:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Please don't engage in SOAPBOXing. There are billionaires in communist countries, they're called communist party bureaucrats. X-Editor (talk) 23:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- @X-Editor: although I agree with your suggestion in your first sentence, the latter sentence appears to be whataboutism on your end. We're speaking of Cuba here, and I presume you were talking about China. There appears to be only one entry at Category:Cuban billionaires at the moment: José Fanjul (amusingly, an American-based Cuban-born businessman and friend of literal Nazis/KKK members). As for billionaires in communist countries in general, maybe it's because these countries are state capitalist at this stage, with China being the most prominent example of a state capitalist country. If a country produces domestic billionaires, it's not communist, apart from rhetoric. –Vipz (talk) 02:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- I apologize for engaging in whataboutism, as such, I'm not going to elaborate further on my second point. X-Editor (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- @X-Editor: feel free to elaborate if you wish, we're here to learn from each other while trying to improve articles on those subjects. –Vipz (talk) 02:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- When I say communist party bureaucrats are billionaires, i'm not refers to billionaires in the capitalist sense, I'm refers to billionaires in terms of power. There may be no billionaires in communist countries, but the people in charge of the communist parties in these countries effectively are billionaires. But in the end, all of this is just my opinion. I was just annoyed by the soapboxing. X-Editor (talk) 02:40, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- @X-Editor: Thanks for elaborating, it's worth it to avoid confusion. Criticism of bureaucracy is not in shortage among orthodox Marxists (particularly those critical of Leninism). See the theory of new class for example.
- That said, different forms and views on democracy exist, although the Marxist–Leninist approaches haven't exactly led to attractive forms of such in practice. And of course, trying to come about socialism democratically gets you a CIA-funded, U.S. sponsored coup.
- I believe it's a bit ironical that in 2022 Cuba advanced LGBT and gender equality rights through a democratic referendum while over in the U.S. nine undemocratically appointed Supreme Court 'justices' took away abortion rights, undemocratically.
- Now, all of this requires a serious consensus among reliable scholarly sources to consider any changes. –Vipz (talk) 03:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- The new class critique is exactly what I'm referring to, hopefully a mistake like that is not repeated in the future.
- "And of course, trying to come about socialism democratically gets you a CIA-funded coup." That's not always the case, India was essentially democratic socialist for a long time from 1947 to 1991.
- "I believe it's a bit ironical that in 2022 Cuba advanced LGBT and gender equality rights through a democratic referendum while over in the U.S. nine undemocratically appointed Supreme Court 'justices' took away abortion rights, undemocratically." I completely agree with this, which is why we need more democracy, not less.
- "Now, all of this requires a serious consensus among reliable scholarly sources to consider any changes." Couldn't agree more.
- I'm glad we could have this conversation. X-Editor (talk) 03:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Why didn't the US intervene in India? ZFT (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- When I say communist party bureaucrats are billionaires, i'm not refers to billionaires in the capitalist sense, I'm refers to billionaires in terms of power. There may be no billionaires in communist countries, but the people in charge of the communist parties in these countries effectively are billionaires. But in the end, all of this is just my opinion. I was just annoyed by the soapboxing. X-Editor (talk) 02:40, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- @X-Editor: feel free to elaborate if you wish, we're here to learn from each other while trying to improve articles on those subjects. –Vipz (talk) 02:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- I apologize for engaging in whataboutism, as such, I'm not going to elaborate further on my second point. X-Editor (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- @X-Editor: although I agree with your suggestion in your first sentence, the latter sentence appears to be whataboutism on your end. We're speaking of Cuba here, and I presume you were talking about China. There appears to be only one entry at Category:Cuban billionaires at the moment: José Fanjul (amusingly, an American-based Cuban-born businessman and friend of literal Nazis/KKK members). As for billionaires in communist countries in general, maybe it's because these countries are state capitalist at this stage, with China being the most prominent example of a state capitalist country. If a country produces domestic billionaires, it's not communist, apart from rhetoric. –Vipz (talk) 02:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree, Cuba is very clearly a democracy, but it doesn't fit the very narrow definition of democracy that the United States lays out. The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 23:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Undue "extreme poverty" lead section sentence
Hello @Wilfredor, what I was requesting here was that the statement to be sourced to several high-quality academic sources. It should also be put into context (embargo, etc.) and elaborated, as done in the Economy section. When several academic sources are in consensus about a statement, claims do not need to be attributed in-text — and such claims are then appropriate for due inclusion in the lead section. –Vipz (talk) 14:54, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Poverty is only mentioned twice in the article, both times in respect of the 88% extreme poverty figure. An examination of poverty in Cuba would be a good addition to the page but needs more than a one sentence statement based on a report from a marginally reliable source. Does anyone have any doubts about the 88% figure? I had a look around to see what other information is available. Apparently the Cuban government does not release data about poverty. The United Nations Development Programme releases a report which measures something called a global Multidimensional Poverty Index (MPI). The global MPI is a key international resource that measures acute multidimensional poverty across more than 100 developing countries. By this measure, poverty in Cuba is fairly mild in comparison to other developing countries, with 0.7% of the population experiencing severe poverty. Burrobert (talk) 15:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Burrobert The problem is that these indices do not measure things such as the scarcity of basic products, in addition to the fact that they are usually made with the exchange rate to the official dollar, which is not the exchange rate that is normally obtained on the street (same problem with Argentina). 186.32.217.46 (talk) 18:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Burrobert, thank you for bringing this to light. As a Venezuelan who has visited Cuba, I must admit your comment offered a momentary chuckle. It's very important to understand the challenge of conducting an independent and comprehensive study in a nation under a dictatorial regime. The claim suggesting that Cuba's poverty levels mirror those of developed countries is, to put it mildly, perplexing. I completely agree that on Misplaced Pages, we should rely on high-quality academic sources, and I've provided one to support the information. However, using the discussion page to make such astonishing claims is a tad humorous. IMHO, I respect the importance of sourcing and ensuring our content is as accurate as possible. Let's collaborate and ensure we represent the reality as best as the available data allows. Wilfredor (talk) 05:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- "By this measure, poverty in Cuba is fairly mild in comparison to other developing countries ". Developed countries are not included in the MPI measurement. Burrobert (talk) 08:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Burrobert, I value the diligence you've displayed in seeking high-quality academic sources and the contextual information from the UNDP's Multidimensional Poverty Index (MPI). However, as someone with firsthand experience and a deep connection to the region, I'd like to emphasize the importance of looking beyond the numbers. And yes the MPI is a significant metric, it isn't a comprehensive representation of all aspects of poverty. It's well-documented that the nature of a regime can significantly hinder the availability and transparency of data. Independent journalism and research in such environments often face challenges. But IMHO, a metric like the MPI, though valuable, might not capture the complete socio-economic reality in nations where data can be controlled or suppressed. Drawing parallels between Cuba and other developing nations based on the MPI alone might give a skewed perspective. We must consider other elements such as access to basic commodities, the real street value of the currency, and other socio-economic factors that aren't encapsulated in the MPI. I propose that instead of concentrating on a singular percentage or metric, we expand our scope to include qualitative accounts and broader indicators. This would provide a more nuanced understanding of the situation in Cuba. I'm committed to ensuring our discussions and articles reflect a balanced and well-informed view of Cuba's intricate socio-economic landscape Wilfredor (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- "By this measure, poverty in Cuba is fairly mild in comparison to other developing countries ". Developed countries are not included in the MPI measurement. Burrobert (talk) 08:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Burrobert, thank you for bringing this to light. As a Venezuelan who has visited Cuba, I must admit your comment offered a momentary chuckle. It's very important to understand the challenge of conducting an independent and comprehensive study in a nation under a dictatorial regime. The claim suggesting that Cuba's poverty levels mirror those of developed countries is, to put it mildly, perplexing. I completely agree that on Misplaced Pages, we should rely on high-quality academic sources, and I've provided one to support the information. However, using the discussion page to make such astonishing claims is a tad humorous. IMHO, I respect the importance of sourcing and ensuring our content is as accurate as possible. Let's collaborate and ensure we represent the reality as best as the available data allows. Wilfredor (talk) 05:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Burrobert The problem is that these indices do not measure things such as the scarcity of basic products, in addition to the fact that they are usually made with the exchange rate to the official dollar, which is not the exchange rate that is normally obtained on the street (same problem with Argentina). 186.32.217.46 (talk) 18:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- At least some version of the extreme poverty statement must be included, it adds balance to the statements that Cuba outperforms in literacy, infant mortality and life expectancy. In fact, I would say that issues regarding the healthcare system should also be reflected. As the main section states: "Challenges include low salaries for doctors, poor facilities, poor provision of equipment, and the frequent absence of essential drugs". --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- I already explained above in another section why this data is mostly false or outdated. You cannot have low infant mortality with high levels of malnutrition ComradeHektor (talk) 21:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- At least some version of the extreme poverty statement must be included, it adds balance to the statements that Cuba outperforms in literacy, infant mortality and life expectancy. In fact, I would say that issues regarding the healthcare system should also be reflected. As the main section states: "Challenges include low salaries for doctors, poor facilities, poor provision of equipment, and the frequent absence of essential drugs". --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2023
 | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Christopher Columbus didn't discover Cuba, people were already living there. He just landed there. 2600:6C4E:237F:5C08:5B9:DFB1:C8E7:C188 (talk) 16:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. I don't see where it says Columbus discovered Cuba. It says he arrived there and that there were already people there. RudolfRed (talk) 17:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023
| This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
other languages--Haitian Creolebr<<Englishbr<<Lucumí 2600:1700:3356:EC00:504A:B56:4202:8D24 (talk) 00:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Done I've add all the languages mentioned in the Languages subsection. Liu1126 (talk) 11:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Missing Hyperlink for English Language
It seems like at some point the hyperlink for the English Language in the Other Languages section got dropped somehow. If this is purposeful please educate me, I'm very new to editing. ErisAvernus (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Fixed, not sure why it wasn't linked. –Vipz (talk) 12:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks :) ErisAvernus (talk) 12:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2023
North Hudson, NJ is not a real place. The term is not used informally either. It should be changed to Union City, NJ or Hudson County, NJ.
| This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
thumb 108.4.241.237 (talk) 01:10, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- Changed to North Hudson County RudolfRed (talk) 03:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Why is the CIA used so often
Is there a reason we are citing CIA information as opposed to probably more reliable, and likely less biased, data like that of the UN for example? They do have a clear geopolitical interest, and a history of stretching facts to support that interest across the whole region. I'm not trying to say that the CIA is outright lying but more that the inherent biases in the people making the data may render it less accurate than the UN's data as an example. Hexifi (talk) 03:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Categories:- Misplaced Pages articles that use American English
- Former good article nominees
- B-Class level-4 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-4 vital articles in Geography
- B-Class vital articles in Geography
- B-Class Latin America articles
- Top-importance Latin America articles
- Latin America articles
- B-Class Cuba articles
- Top-importance Cuba articles
- WikiProject Cuba articles
- B-Class Caribbean articles
- Top-importance Caribbean articles
- WikiProject Caribbean articles
- WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
- B-Class country articles
- WikiProject Countries articles
- B-Class Islands articles
- WikiProject Islands articles
- B-Class socialism articles
- Top-importance socialism articles
- WikiProject Socialism articles
- B-Class politics articles
- Top-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press