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Honorific prefixes No.2

This guideline is absurd and should be reversed. It is relevant almost only to people in UK who are not peers. Peers who are members of the Privy Council are described in the first line as Peter Rabbit, Lord Rabbit of Garden, PC, MBE. But before he was elevated to the peerage he was described as Rt Hon Peter Rabbit, MP, MBE. Rt Hon as a prefix is instead of the post-nominal PC which is only used by peers. Yet this guideline quite wrongly does not even allow him to be described as Peter Rabbit, PC, MP, MBE (which is worse than Rt Hon and not used but is better than omitting this important recognition by the society in which he lives). - Kittybrewster 22:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Reply Quote from Debrett's Correct Form: "'The Rt Hon' is always placed before the name both in formal and social usage. There is no need to add the letters P.C. after the name, since 'The Rt. Hon.' is sufficient indication of membership of the Privy Council." I am therefore arguing for The Rt Hon and against PC. Quote from The Correct Guide to Letter Writing; Superscription of the envelope "The Rt Hon ------ ------, P.C." - Kittybrewster 10:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
All that says is that it is not necessary to add PC if Rt Hon is used. What it does not say is that PC is incorrect. We do not use honorofics on Misplaced Pages, plain and simple. What we would do when addressing a letter and what we do here are two different things. If it was so wrong to omit Rt Hon would the government really have done so on Ernest Bevin's memorial service programme? Somehow, I think not. -- Necrothesp 11:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Why does Wiki. not use them? Is there any reason? I doubt Bevin cared very much, or that the government composed the memorial service programme for that matter!--Couter-revolutionary 11:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
"'The Rt Hon' is always placed before the name both in formal and social usage" - Kittybrewster 11:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Sir Winston Churchill’s Memorial Programme (a state funeral) correctly describes him as The Rt Hon Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH so I think Necrothesp is arguing WP:IDONTLIKEIT - Kittybrewster 11:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Please don't make assumptions as to what I like and do not like. I'm a firm supporter of the use of honorifics in most circumstances. But I do not believe they are necessary on Misplaced Pages (although I have argued for the use of titles on many occasions) and if we make an exception for Rt Hon then there will be calls for the addition of "Honorables" and other honorifics to every tom, dick and harry to whom they're granted in other countries (where "the honorable" is often used merely as an indicator that the individual has some vaguely official office). I find it interesting that you are happy to take Churchill's programme as proof of the validity of your own point of view and disregard Bevin's as proof of mine! Note that I have never said that use of "Rt Hon" is incorrect - it most certainly isn't - but only that the use of "PC" is also acceptable. And I believe that it is the better option here. -- Necrothesp 13:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I think Kitty. was pointing out Churchill's was a state funeral, therefore definitely official.--Couter-revolutionary 13:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
As I said, I'm not arguing that Rt Hon is incorrect in any case. Of course it's correct. My argument is that the use of "PC" is also perfectly correct, that claims it isn't have not been substantiated in any way (and indeed, I have provided an example of its usage on a government document), and that it is preferable here for the reasons I have stated. -- Necrothesp 13:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Reverse if Misplaced Pages is to have credibility. We should be insisting upon what is correct, not whatever we like or approve/disapprove of. David Lauder 10:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Reverse so that non-noble Privy Councillors are "The Right Honourable". This is clearly an exceptional situation to the general situation of disliking honorific prefixes. Sam Blacketer 10:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I do believe that having The Right Honourable before all members of the Privy Council is unnecessary and unsightly, and I don't think most encloypedias put it before people's names like that. Misplaced Pages is not Debretts, and I think that having a simple "PC" after the persons name is quite sufficient. Kittybrewster quotes that it is always used in "formal and social usage", maybe (although I could dispute the social) but Misplaced Pages is not formal or social, it is an encloyopedia. --Berks105 11:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep due to the arguments of Berks105 and Necrothesp ~~ Phoe talk 21:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC) ~~
  • Reverse - I agree with the remarks on this page which refer to Correct Form. It is not for hostile editors to deny, via Wiki, the proper forms of address. Chelsea Tory 08:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Reverse, I guess, although I don't think it's a big deal. It seems weird that we indicate in the header when peers are members of the privy council, but not when commoners are, and it's more or less wrong (or, at least, really odd) to add "PC" as a postnominal for commoners. john k 21:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, in agreement with the comments that both Necrothesp and Berks105 made. Also please note that a number of editors that have !voted to "Reverse it" have been invloved in canvassing and have acted in "lock step" on a number of AfD's and !votes, as outlined by an administrator comment here--Vintagekits 23:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Reverse - I never understood how this came to be policy in the first place. --New Progressive 11:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing of this discussion

Kittybrewster has posted notices on 13 user pages drawing attention to this debate. This is an unacceptable way of trying to influence the outcome. The users are Ibagli, Masalai, Gibnews, Weggie, Jcuk, JulesH, AnnabelBuxton, Just_H, Craigy144, Eamon76, Thesocialistesq, Pc1dmn, JRawle. They are not to blame, but actions of this kind are likely to upset fair means of working towards consensus. Canvassing done 21:10, 13 March 2007 – 22:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC) Tyrenius 00:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep One reason we added this, IIRC, is that thousands of U.S. politicians would have "honorable" attached to their names. This rule is also needed to maintain uniform treatment for all honorific titles. -Will Beback · † · 21:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Then some kind of distinction should be made. In the UK, Rt. Hon. (at least when used to refer to a Privy Counsellor) is used to distinguish a select class of politicians who are entitled to perform a number of functions, including sitting as the supreme court for a number of overseas British territories. The title is not merely an honorific, but representative of actual function. I would suggest that this may be a sensible line to draw across the use of such prefixes. JulesH 23:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • No, they don't sit as the supreme court for the overseas territories. That process is often referred to as "the Privy Council" but it is actually only the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council that sits -- these people are judges and, I think, the same people in practice as the Law Lords. That excludes the vast majority of members of the Privy Council. Woblosch 22:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Reverse, in accordance with JulesH's comment and Correct Form. Laura1822 00:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Reverse- per Kitty's arguments. Astrotrain 09:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per Berks105 and Will Beback. A postnominal PC coveys all the necessary information in a more concise form, and avoids endless explanations over the precise distinction between the "Rt. Honourable" PC members and the "honorable" US Congressmen. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Reverse, in accordance with 'Correct Form' and usual practice. Bluewave 13:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - It may be correct for 'Correct Form', but this is an encyclopedia, not a formal document or similar. And I disagree with ususal practice, The Right Honourable is not normally used, you never see it in newspapers, history books, etc etc when refering to a person. --Berks105 14:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. We don't want to go back to having all honorific prefixes, so we shouldn't make an exception for this one. The reason peers use PC is because they are automatically entitled to Rt Hon simply for being a peer. As we don't include prefixes for peers, I don't actually see a reason for listing PC at all. We don't list all postnominals, and there's no reason for all honours and achievements to be described in first line. It can be mentioned in the body, in the image caption or in a later "Titles from birth" section. So to summarise: keep this guideline, and maybe consider stopping using "PC" for peers. JRawle (Talk) 14:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

The section now reads:

  • Styles and honorifics which are derived from political activities, including but not limited to The Right Honourable for being a Member of the Privy Council, should not be included in the text inline but may be legitimately discussed in the article proper.

Is the intent to delete the entire section? Or is to make this change:

JulesH seems to be arguing for the latter but I'm not sure exactly what Kittybrewster is proposing.-Will Beback · † · 10:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Response I don't think it is plain wrong. Kittybrewster and others must remember this is an encylopedia and not a peerage website, or a formal document. The Right Honourable is not normally used, it is only really used in the House of Commons, and on formal documents or invitations etc. It is not used in other encylopedias, or books etc. --Berks105 14:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • "The Right Honourable" is normally used when giving someone's formal name. If the Prime Minister gave a ministerial broadcast he would be introduced as "The Right Honourable Tony Blair, M.P.". In most biographical guides, it is used. No-one ever uses postnominal PC for non-noble Privy Councillors. I suspect the problem here largely derives from the fact that 'The Right Honourable' is a prefix and not a suffix, but in that, it is clearly an exception. Most honours are placed as abbreviated suffixes, but this one gives the holder an honorific prefix. We accept "Sir"/"Dame" and Peerage titles as prefixes inline. Sam Blacketer 14:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It's more general than that, Question_Time_(TV_series) and many other shows certainly caption as you say and sometimes use the spoken form. Of course that's not decisive to the issue 86.134.78.14 15:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleting this section would be a poor idea. Time and again, people have argued over honorific prefixes; time and again, they've been excluded because they're NOT encyclopedic. I'm tired of seeing this come up continually. The answer is no, people shouldn't have honorifics. They're POV, they're not encyclopedic, and they make biography intros less consistant. Titanium Dragon 19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Of course they are not POV. They are fact - like VC. The one is postnominal, the other is prenominal. As for being consistent and wrong, better to make an exception in this case.. - Kittybrewster 08:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
What is PoV is to say; "people shouldn't have honorifics" --Counter-revolutionary 10:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I am bemused to see that this discussion is apparently based on the usage recommended in Debretts. More than 20 year ago, I had occasion to write to a few hundred MPs. Seeking advice on how to address them, a colleague checked Debrett's, so we sent off the letters addressed as recommended ... and I was later teased about it by parliamentary staff who found the styles comically antiquated. I have yet to find any MP who is the slightest bit concerned about not being addressed as "The Right Honourable", but plenty who are embarrassed to have that degree of formality in anything except highly formal situations (such as in the chamber of the Commons). Debrett's may well be accurately recording the formal conventions, but actual usage has moved on: or good or ill, Britain has become a much less formal country, where "correct" forms of address are rarely used.

I have just checked the Dictionary of National Biography. Here are a the opening words from a few articles on MPs:

  • Thatcher, Sir Denis, first baronet (1915–2003), businessman and ...
  • Churchill, Sir Winston Leonard Spencer (1874–1965), prime minister ...
  • Attlee, Clement Richard, first Earl Attlee (1883–1967), prime minister,

... and I can't find any entry where DNB uses the honorific.

If such a reputable publication as the DNB doesn't use "Rt. Hon", why should wikipedia feel obliged to do so? And if Who's Who use the postnomial PC, I don't see how it makes wikipedia look silly to use it too. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Denis Thatcher was neither an MP nor a Privy Councillor. - Kittybrewster (talk) 23:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
And Winston Churchill was knighted, and Attlee raised to the peerage- so the lack of Rt. Hon. is entirely understandable. Gabrielthursday 22:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Common name versus fullname for disambguation

  • Robert Smith (editor)
  • Robert Smith (baseball)
  • Robert Smith (musician)

Is it proper to make them into their full name to aid diambiguation, even though its not their most common name: Robert Smith (editor) --> Robert Edward Smith. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is more logical to use a full name if it is known (and if they had more than two names, of course), but only if it is necessary for disambiguation. At the very least, a redirect should be made from their full name. -- Necrothesp 17:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I certainly agree that a redirect from the full name is needed, and I try to always provide it, regardless of whether the article title includes a disambiguator. However, I think that the current formula of "name best known as"+(disambiguator if needed) is better than the full name, because it sticks most closely to the convention of "name best known as". If, for example, there were several other equally notable people called Tony Benn and we therefore needed to disambiguate them all, then "Tony Benn (politician)" is much more intuitive than "Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn" or "Tony Neil Benn" or "Tony Neil Wedgwood Benn". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • comment I have no idea what this is about really, having just recieved a link (without so much as a message) to it on my talk page. However, looking briefly at the arguments presented, I think we should most definately use Right Hon. for UK M.P.s, as it is the correct (if no longer the usual) term. Just because other encyclopædias no longer do so, I see no reason for Misplaced Pages to lower its standards. Jcuk 13:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Honorific prefixes

(Note that honorary knights and dames are not entitled to "Sir" or "Dame", only the post-nominal letters.) Example: "Dame Ellen Patricia MacArthur, DBE (born July 8, 1976) is an English sailor..." Is this just my being dim, or should that "Dame" in front of "Ellen Patricia MacArthur" disappear? Paul venter 22:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Why should it disappear? Dame Ellen isn't a honorary dame. --Berks105 09:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

4. The honorifics Sir and Dame should be included in the text inline for baronets, knights bachelor, and members of knightly orders whose rank grants them that dignity, provided that they do not hold a higher dignity, such as a peerage, which trumps that usage. No baronet should be shown with the postfix but without the prefix, e.g. John Smith, 17th Baronet is wrong, the correct style being Sir John Smith, 17th Baronet. (Note that honorary knights and dames are not entitled to "Sir" or "Dame", only the post-nominal letters.) Example: "Dame Ellen Patricia MacArthur, DBE (born 8 July 1976) is an English sailor..."
Then why use her as an example immediately after a statement about honorary knights and dames???? Paul venter 11:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The statement about honorary knights and dames is in brackets, whereas the example is not. Therefore the example clearly does not refer to the note in brackets (otherwise it too would be inside the brackets), but to the previous text not in brackets. The usage is perfectly correct. -- Necrothesp 01:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't the example be much better coming immediately after the text to which it refers, and the note about honorary dames and knight go last? -- JackofOz 00:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Uppercase "The" in TV show titles.

I have a question about the use of the uppercase 'The' when writing about the titles of TV shows, musical groups, or organisations. If these pages/links use the the uppercase article, are they right or wrong? I thank you. andreasegde 18:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

On TV: The Office The Apprentice, The Wire

Bands: The Who, The Band, The Libertines, The The, The Cure, The West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band, The Dandy Warhols, The Jam, The Knack, The La's, The Undertones,

Newspapers: The Independent, The Observer, The Lancet, The Sun, The Scotsman, The Stage, The Spectator, The Sunday Times (UK), The Wire magazine

External links: The Pension Service, The Highway Code, The Photographers' Gallery, The Womens Library, The Fat Duck, The Children's Society andreasegde 18:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as newspapers are concerned, doesn't it depend on what the newspaper calls itself? For instance "The Times" and "The Guardian" include the "the" on their masthead, so it is part of their actual name, whereas the "Evening Standard" and the "Daily Mirror" don't, so I should have thought a capital T would be inappropriate in those cases. Woblosch 23:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
This issue has been discussed at length in regards to the Beatles article/wikiproject. Based on input from professional print editors from the U.S. and U.K., the policy has been set to use the (lowercase) within the article text, except of course at the beginning of sentences. That's the way it's done in the vast majority of professional publications. (It seems to me any wikilinks should not include the the in such cases, but that's debatable.). I think Misplaced Pages needs an official policy on the issue. --emw 06:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Revoked/rescinded Knighthoods

There’s a discussion going on over at Talk:Roger Casement as to whether or not it’s appropriate to refer to him in the lead para as "Sir Roger Casement CMG", or just "Roger Casement". The discussion centres on the facts that he was knighted in 1911, but his knighthood and CMG were revoked in 1916 after being convicted of treason.

Some participants refer to a naming convention whereby the person’s highest bestowed title and postnominals should be used. Others are arguing that, if a title/postnominal that normally remains for life has been revoked, it becomes inappropriate to use them in the person’s full name and titles in the lead para; the text of the article will reveal both the knighthood/CMG and their revocation.

I declare my hand: I’m in the latter group.

Revocations of knightood are very rare, and are only done in the most extreme circumstances. The only ones I’m aware of apart from Casement are Anthony Blunt, Albert Henry and Terry Lewis (police commissioner). For this reason, and given that this issue seems never to have been discussed here before, it’s likely that no thought has ever been given to a guideline/policy about such cases.

The "Honorary prefixes" section (point 4) addresses the case where a knight later becomes a peer. It doesn’t address the case where the knighthood is revoked. One suggestion (admittedly favouring the position I support) would be to add the words highlighted below:

  • The honorifics Sir and Dame should be included in the text inline for baronets, knights bachelor, and members of knightly orders whose rank grants them that dignity, provided that:
  • they do not hold a higher dignity, such as a peerage, which trumps that usage, or
  • the knighthood was not revoked/rescinded.

I’d appreciate some discussion of this, and some direction, so that we can have a consistent approach to these very unusual subjects and not have to recreate the wheel more often than is necessary.

There doesn't seem to be an article or category that lists all such cases. This should also be corrected. JackofOz 04:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

According to this, there have only been 14 people since the 14th century to be stripped of a knightood. So, it's a small list, but sufficient to have a policy on how to refer to such people. JackofOz 05:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity in opening - Asimov example contradicts guidelines?

The guidelines on the opening paragraph say, "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." But later in the article it gives the opening sentence on Isaac Asimov, saying in part, "was a Russian-born American Jewish author and biochemist". Doesn't the example contradict the guidelines, because Asimov's notability is irrelevant to the fact that he was Jewish? (Declaration of potential conflict of interest: this arose because the example is being used in a discussion at Talk:Samuel Reshevsky). Peter Ballard 02:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Editors at Isaac Asimov seem to concur with me, because "Jewish" was removed from the article's lead sentence ago, except that it was re-inserted today as a side effect of the discussion at Talk:Samuel Reshevsky. Peter Ballard 04:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Lead names

My apologies if there has been a prior discussion on lead names that I missed out on. Has it become standard to put the subject's common name in quotations, i.e. Joseph "Joe" Smith, even if that common name is simply a general, English short form of the subject's first name? Because to be honest, Joseph "Joe" is unnecessary - ostensibly Joe is short for Joseph. It is also a universal understanding that Bob is Robert and Bill is William, and so forth - "Bill" is not unique to William Jefferson Clinton, neither is "Al" to Albert Gore, nor "Dick" to Richard Cheney. Only if the subject has an obscure nickname, like Craig "Speedy" Claxton does it make sense to put the nickname in quotations. At nearly 2 million articles, thousands of which are biographies, Christopher "Chris" and Edward "Ted" starts to look untidy - throw on middle names and you start to see my point. Why can't they all just be like Tony Blair. Jay(Talk) 00:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Honorific Prefixes (again...)

A few months ago, a TfD for Template:Infobox hrhstyles was withdrawn because it should have been discussed here first, apparently. So my question here is; why do we have this and other similar infoboxes, which are rather clear violations of WP:NOT a how-to guide (as they only say how you should, according to protocol, address these people). The titles used to address e.g. a member of a royal family contain no information whatsoever relevant to that individual, so I don't see why we should have these infoboxes (as an example, what would be lost except a how-to if we removed the infobox from Prince Laurent of Belgium?). Anyone has a convincing argument to keep these boxes? Fram 07:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, this homonymic use of the phrase "how to", meaning "correct form of address", has nothing to do with the use of "how to" in WP:NOT (i.e. method or procedure for doing something). There are similar uses of the phrase "how to" in "how to pronounce", meaning "correct pronunciation, not "procedure for achieving a particular pronunciation". These are completely different meanings of the phrase "how to", having nothing in common with the "instruction manual" use, as in "How to drive a car", "How to build a bridge" etc. In my opinion, this is clear from the wording of WP:NOT, but perhaps the phrase "how-to" should be removed there. --Boson 18:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't see the distinction you make. We have an article about a car, but we don't explain how you should start it, change its cooling fluid, ... We have an article about a king, but we don't explain how you shuold address him. The words used to address a king (at least if you want to follow protocol, nothing says you can't just say "mister") are of no value in an article about that king, and gives us no information regarding that king whatsoever. It would be different if a king insisted on being called "God above all Gods" or somesuch, as that could be a good indication, an example, of his delusions of grandeur. But in that case, the information gives us more knowledge about what kind of person that king is / was. I fail to see how the general hrhstyle infobox gives us any more info or knowledge about the royal in question though. Fram 19:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
When you talk about WP:NOT and "how to", I assume you are referring to the section about instruction manuals:

Instruction manuals. While Misplaced Pages has descriptions of people, places, and things, Misplaced Pages articles should not include instructions, advice (legal, medical, or otherwise) or suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes.

I interpret this to include advice and recommendations about how to produce something, acquire a skill, or achieve a result, especially by step-by-step instructions, as in the examples given at WP:NOT. I would not interpret details of forms of address as covered by this -- not any more than information about aliases, noms de plumes, etc. Just because you can use the phrase "how to" to describe something does not put it into the same category as a recipe or tutorial (where "how to" has a completely different meaning, i.e a series of instructions or recommendations aimed at achieving a purpose). Similarly, one could claim that including "Botanical name: Digitalis purpurea" in an infobox tells us how to refer to the common foxglove when observing scientific conventions, but that does not make it a "how-to" within the meaning of WP:NOT.--Boson 21:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
A pseudonym, alternative (sientific) name, ... all are other, distinct names by which the subject is defined. "His royal highness" tells us absolutely nothing about any specific king, prince, ... but tells you how to address kings in general. What is the point of such a general infobox in a specific article? The pseudonyms used by a writer give us more information about that individual writer and thus belong in that article. The different ways to address a royal give us no information about that specific person and thus do not belong in that article. Fram 18:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
It helps to create an understanding of that individual's life, and their interactions with others. Tyrenius 04:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Subsequent use of names

Currently, it says to use the surname when talking about the subject later in the article. But, it does not list any exceptions for stage names (especially, singular names). Judging by Madonna (entertainer), Prince (musician), and Seal (musician), it looks like concensus is already to use the stage name. But, it would probably be good to put it into the MoS; unless there is still some debate to be had about it. I think that enforcing the surname rule would be more professional and fitting of an encyclopedia, but, I don't think we could pull it off here. Opinions? Neier 14:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It would read in a very stilted way to use the surname for these people. Tyrenius 04:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
We should be using the surname-equivalent for people who go by a stage name. So, "Jolson" for Asa Yoelson and "Madonna" for Madonna Louise Ciccone Ritchie (since she goes by a single name), but "Presley" for Elvis Aaron Presley (since he did not go by a single-name stage name, he's just well-known).--Pharos 04:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've added a few words to this effect in the 'Subsequent uses of names' section.--Pharos 05:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Pseudonyms

Just because the article doesn't explicitly state this; If say an author goes by a pseudonym that is more well known than their actual name then the article's name should be the pseudonym? I ask this because somebody keeps going around to some of these pages about authors and changing them from their well know (and published) pseudonyms (eg. Nora Roberts) to their less known 'real' names (eg. Eleanor Marie Robertson) which is even debatable because she's been married a few times so in reality it would be Eleanor Marie Robertson Smith Wilder, which the person has already created a redirect from. I personally believe that the article, and probably most of the others that the person has moved needs to be back at the more popular pseudonym but I want to me sure that I'm reading this right before doing anything. Thanks --ImmortalGoddezz 13:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

That editor needs to read and understand Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names), and to take note of the example about Pelé. I am no expert on Nora Roberts or her work, or her various legal names or pseudonyms, but just looking at the number of links to Nora Roberts from other articles leads me to believe that its choice for the original placement of the article was well reasoned. Unless editors who come along later can explain why they think that choice was an error, and can also convince others, they should not take it upon themselves to overturn it. In this case the move was disruptive. At the very least, the proposed move should have been discussed on the talk page, as this article appears to be highly visible. Chris the speller 16:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Spouses

Is it appropriate to add birth date and place information in a parenthetical when a spouse is mentioned in a biography?--Vbd (talk) 05:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Changed birthname to real name

In "Pseudonyms, stage names and common names" I changed birth name to real name as it confuses people. Some people thought because of this formation that if the person has legally and officially changed his/her birth name, you should still state their birth name as the main name which, as we all understand not right. Northern 13:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

How to deal with lists within articles / notable achievements

A number of biographies, especially those of professional athletes, incorporate lists into the articles themselves. Is this stylistically appropriate? For example, Michael Jordan, there is a list of his accomplishments displayed in the article. However, that list also has its' own article here. Should athletes' pages incorporate awards in list format? I think that is a bad idea. If a person has such an extensive amount of accomplishments that warrant a list, then, like the MJ article, that information can be displayed in its' own article. If not, it would seem likely that the information should just be incorporated into the "meat" of the article. I think that this article needs to address what to do with "lists". Thoughts? //Tecmobowl 04:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with that article. It's a format in widespread use. It's easy to see the main achievements summarised in list form (much easier to see than if the same material was in the main text) and anyone wanting all the details can go to the separate list on its own article. Tyrenius 04:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
You mean you don't have a problem with the Michael Jordan page having a list of his information or you don't have a problem with his accomplishments having it's own article? //Tecmobowl
Both. His page has a summary of (presumably) the most important achievements, while the complete list has its own article - for space reasons. Tyrenius 04:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Okay, well that sort of gets to my other point. I think that this Manual should account for what is and is not acceptable according to the "consensus". So what do we do? And are we sure that the consensus is that small lists of athletic accomplishments should be provided in text format when they have not been communicated in other places within the article? //Tecmobowl 05:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it necessary to state Florence, Italy or Danzig, Poland?

Is it necessary to add the country every time a city is mentioned, to make sure nobody associates the wrong country with a city name, like Florence, Italy to make clear that Firenze in Italia is not a French city?

Or should the link to the city article be enough, especially in controversial cases like Danzig? Many historical bios related to the town were/are affected by edit warring, see the history of those on the List of famous born Gedanians, and also others who once worked or traveled there.

I'd say that a biography should focus on the person, not the history and political background of the place she/he was born, lived or died, and thus the country name should be left out especially if it leads to endless edit warring, like at this stub which has seen few content additions other than reverting, which was resumed after more than a year of peace -- Matthead      O       03:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

As discussed elsewhere , I picked randomly an entry from Category:People from Warsaw and found that in Wanda Landowska ("was a Polish (later a naturalized French citizen) harpsichordist"), no country is mentioned next to a city name. It says "Landowska was born in Warsaw", not "Landowska was born in 1879 in Warsaw, Russian Empire". She later studied in Berlin and Paris, yet no mention of the countries involved (BTW, I choose not to comment on POV etc. in the last section). If Russian, German or French editors were as eager as some Poles, then Russia, Germany and France would have been written all over this bio (and many others). Next pick, Ludomir Rozycki, same story, a stub about a "Polish composer" born in 1884. Both articles somehow forget to state that those persons were born as subjects of the Russian Czar. Without further inquiry I dare to say that most other bios of people born in the same time and place probably are written in the same way, with the prominent Marie Curie being the exemption to this rule due to international attention. -- Matthead      O       15:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Dates of birth and death duplication.

Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death duplication. -- Jeandré, 2007-08-13t10:59z

Please don't go there. This is the correct forum. The question posed by Jeandré was "If the biography has an infobox, can we have the dates in there only instead of duplicating it after the name?" Chris the speller 15:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Biography subheading

In biographical articles, is it ever appropriate to have a "Biography" subheading? If the whole article is a biography, such a subheading seems redundant - and makes me wonder what the rest of the article is all about. See: Merv Griffin for an example. I saw no reference to this on the project page or the Manual of Style. Rklawton 21:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Revisiting people normally known by their middle name

This is a followup to a brief and inconclusive discussion earlier in the year: see Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (biographies)/Archive 5#People_normally_known_by_their_middle_name.

I had been using the format "(Samuel) James Smith" for people known by their middle names, but this format has just been removed (and reverted when I restored it) by another editor who insisted that the MoS deprecated this, which surprised me, because parenthesising the first name is a widely-used practice in British biographical articles, and I had seen nothing to deprecate it.

It turns out that a change to the MoS was made in this edit on 23 September 2006, and although here was a subsequent edit war over this and other changes, I can find no relevant discussion at the time -- the only discussion I can find is that in January 2007.

It seems to me that there the best solution here would be flexibility, allowing several different approaches, and that the parenthesised first name should be one of the options. Any thoughts? (I will notify participants in the previous discussions). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea of flexiblity - there should be one standard approach, having more than one would lead to many edit wars. I believe the current MoS is how it should be. Having brakcets looks messy and is unnecessary. People can tell from the article title and the article itself that the person was known by their middle name, we do not to put the first name in brackets to tell them. And if necessary, as "known as ..." after the birth-death brackets could be inserted. --UpDown 12:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Article titles can take many different formats, particularly with people who held one or more titles, and are frequently a poor guide to naming. The brackets are a simple and unobtrusive way of making it clear that there was an unused first name, without leaving the reader to infer it.
This is the format used by Dictionary of National Biography. For example, the DNB article on Neville Chamberlain (subscription required) opens "Chamberlain, (Arthur) Neville (1869–1940), prime minister, was born …", which seems to me to be much less messy than the wikipedia article Neville Chamberlain, which opens "Arthur Neville Chamberlain (18 March 1869 – 9 November 1940), known as Neville Chamberlain, was a …".
There are several other issues in the MOS which allow flexibility without causing edit wars, such as in the formatting of dates, where the guidance is that is more than one option is applicable, use that adopted by the first major contributor to the article. That guidance seems to work very well. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but there is no reason to use brackets on one article and not on another. How would people decide which is best of a particular article, I don't believe the first major contributor is either fair or just. It would also create a differance on articles, which makes Misplaced Pages looks stupid. We need a definate policy, and I think the current one works fine. The opening line for Neville Chamberlain to me is fine and a lot better than it would be with brackets, which are messy. And the DNB do things very diferantly to Misplaced Pages as shown by their opening line, so what they do is immaterial. --UpDown 13:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary, I believe that parenthesising uncommonly used first names looks messy and can be confusing. Just a personal opinion of course, but I prefer to give the full name without parenthesis, then the dates, then the name by which the individual was actually known. I consider this far less confusing, particularly for people whose first language isn't English and who may not understand what the parentheses mean. You are correct that the DNB does it your preferred way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way - the DNB was written by scholars who assumed everyone understood such conventions, and its consumers are probably primarily similar people. Misplaced Pages, on the other hand, is more a general encyclopaedia than a scholarly work and its consumers are not necessarily versed in scholarly conventions. I do, however, believe that the common name should always be listed for the sake of clarity, even if it's the article title. -- Necrothesp 13:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)