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Anti-Semitism in Poland

A look at the history of this page shows strong feelings on either side. There has been considerable effort made to speedy this page, even though it is not really a candidate, and it has been redirected twice to articles which really don't speak to this issue. It seems VfD is rightfully the place for a decision to be made on the fate of this article. Denni☯ 22:46, 2005 July 10 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE: THERE IS AN EDIT WAR OVER THE PAGE. THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT VERSIONS and ~~~~ 22:32,pi 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Votes

  • Keep There are already a slew of Jewish-related articles on Misplaced Pages, so why is this one any different from the rest which are not on VFD? TheUnforgiven 22:53, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. This definately needs to be kept. I might add to this one, now that you mention it. -mysekurity 22:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, although it is ogin to have eternal NPOV problems and vandalism. I'll add it to my watchlist. -Splash 23:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • It seems to me that the scope of this article is already covered at History of the Jews in Poland. I suggest to merge and redirect there. JeremyA 23:09, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect (as above) or blank and rewrite from the scratches, if there is a need to have a set of separate articles on anti-Semitism in every corner of the world. Preferably from a NPOV by someone not as biased and emotional as the present authors of that thingie. Poles generally being known for being one of the most Anti-Semitic peoples in the world - what rubbish is that? Halibutt 23:10, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. Current article is POV. Pburka 23:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect to Anti-semitism. We don't need a whole swarm of articles of the sort Antisemitism in (choose any country/city), though surely anti-semitism does exist in just about all countries and cities, to a greater or lesser extent. Balcer 23:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep I think that the topic is an interesting one, and considering the fact that before WWII one sixth of all Jews in the world were Polish, I'd say this deserves its own page. That said, the "article" as it now stands is woefully low on information and seems to be more a thought that hits someone one day than an academic encyclopedia article. Nevertheless I'm strongly in favor of keeping the page so that six months hence there will be a fine article on the subject here. - mnuez Edit by 208.54.14.65
208.54.14.65 (talk · contribs) has only 9 contributions including 3 for VfD. --Ttyre 17:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Additionally, there is no other article on wiki dealing with anti-Semitism in a specific country - why to create a precedent? Do we really want to have articles on anti-Semitism in France, Great Britain, The Netherlands, Romania, Spain, Germany, US, Canada, Russia, etc.? According to ADL annual reports there is a plenty of data on anti-Semitism in these countries - see: anti-Semitism US, anti-Semitism international. See discussion below. Ttyre 20:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
The vandalism is committed by User:Witkacy who also keeps adding the sentence "Poles generally being known for being one of the most Anti-Semitic peoples in the world"User:83.109.157.141
I have reverted to your previous version... So whats the problem, Helga?--Witkacy 02:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • keep, a very importent article
Signature on edit unprintable(?) see edit. brenneman 23:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Also what's the consensus on validity of new users from other WK's? I'm to ignorant to verify a user's existence on the Hebrew Misplaced Pages, and then confirming that this edit is by that user seems like a logistical nightmare. brenneman 23:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Civility TheUnforgiven 01:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, you are of course correct. I spoke hastily, and for that I apologise. I'll add an apology to Witkacy on his talkpage.
How about: Several participants in this appear to have failed to act in good faith. The criterion for speedy deletion and redirection seem to me not to have been met, and I am disturbed by the partisan nature of some discussion. Aaron Brenneman 02:56, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. That of which you speak is precisely what bothers me. TheUnforgiven 03:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland brenneman 23:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete per Ttyre. --SylwiaS 02:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland Avihu 03:45, 11 July 2005 (UTC).
  • Also merge and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. -- Chris 73 Talk 07:37, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per Ttyre. JamesBurns 08:53, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep per TheUnforgiven's comments. Xoloz 09:27, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. There are many important things to say about anti-Semitism in Poland. It is also true that anti-Semitic statements in public and in private are still more common in modern Poland than they are in most other European countries. However, this article is beyond repair. Apart from the fact that much of the information is inaccurate or simply incorrect (such as the claims about the presence of anti-Semitic cartoons in the mainstream press, attacks against synagogues - which are paradoxically rarer in Poland than in other countries where verbal anti-Semitism is tolerated less, the "deportation" of Jews in 1968). Other portions are deliberately vague to create a false impression in the reader (such "anti-Semitism in Poland as has a long history", "Persecution of Jews took place both before, during and after the Second World War", "During the war many Poles actively took part in the Holocaust"). It is fairly obvious that this article was created in response to the ongoing VFD against Anti-Polonism, and thus constitutes a clear violation of WP:POINT. Let there be no mistake, the history of anti-Semitism in Poland certainly warrants a proper article. I am actually surprised that this prominent topic has not been covered yet. However, if one extracts the useful stuff from this drivel of simplifications and accusations, much too little will be left to justify an article. If no one comes up with any text that does more justice to this complex matter within the usual deadline, it's better to delete the article altogether for the time being. --Thorsten1 10:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Update: Based on Piotrus's version I change my vote to keep. --Thorsten1 22:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Another update: When changing my vote from strong delete to conditional keep I was not aware that Piotrus's text was not original but duplicated material from other articles. I appreciate Piotrus's effort at improving this article, but I think there is a case for a seperate article on anti-Semitism in Poland only if redundancy with articles such as Anti-Semitism and History of Jews in Poland is kept to a minimum. In modern Poland, anti-Semitism exists even in the absence of any major Jewish population group - it focuses on "imaginary" Jews in Poland and alleged anti-Polish lobbying by Jews outside Poland. Thus, it is possible and to some extent even necessary to deal with this sociological phenomenon outside the article History of Jews in Poland. However, as long as the article remains a) strongly POV or b) strongly redundant with other articles, I change my vote back to delete. Sorry for adding to the confusion. --Thorsten1 20:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
    • If necessary, be bold, and prune this article down to a sentence or two. As you say, this is a valid topic -- feel free to eliminate whatever you must to achieve NPOV, but let a stub remain for future writers to expand. Xoloz 17:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
      • Well, I could certainly do that. However, I won't do so for two reasons: Any reasonable editing is likely to be immediately reverted by POV pushers from either side who are attracted to such articles like moths to a light bulb... Apart from that, as I said above, the non-POV substance of the article would hardly even reach the stub threshold: "Anti-Semitism in Poland exists. After the end of World War II used at certain moments by communist party or individual politicians in order to achieve their political goals." I think we all agree that this would not really be worth keeping. --Thorsten1 22:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • keep Deror 12:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, not encyclo. Radiant_>|< 15:04, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
    • It was pointed out to me that there are two versions of this page. However, that doesn't change my opinion that this is not a good topic. History of Jews in Poland and Anti-Semitism can cover the subject, but the cross-section thereof is, in my opinion, not encyclopedic. Radiant_>|< 07:01, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
  • delete useless rant. The article does not describe a single fact. The topic is valid (and pretty much covered in the History of the Jews in Poland), but the article under the vote is garbage. mikka (t) 17:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as above. The article is a POV rant misduplicating material at History of the Jews in Poland. This subject is valid, but need not be discussed separately from Jewish Polish history. If that article gets too big, the solution is to break it up by dates, not by extracting one aspect as though it were somehow independent from the rest of Jewish history in the various incarnations of Poland. As it stands, this farticle is as much a magnet for trolls and vandals as Anti-Polonism. Tomer 21:31, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • Treat my vote as Delete unless material is removed from main Anti-Semitism article, then Keep. The article was blatantly POVed, but I fixed it by replacing it by (much more extensive and sourced) text from relevant sections on Anti-Semitism page. Note that this means I deleted all the old content - as many said, it was beyong salvage. For long time there have been discussions at Talk:Anti-Semitism to create such a subarticle(s) and move national anti-semitic material there - this is a good start. I see it as a subarticle to Anti-Semitism. It should be part of the series of Anti-Semitism in Germany, Anti-Semitism in France, Anti-Semitism in Italy, Anti-Semitism in United States, etc - but it should not exists separately. On many levels it is a similar case to Anti-Polonism, IMHO.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 09:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Reverted user:Piotrus complete re-write of the article. Please wait till the voting is concluded: couple of dozen people has already voted. Besides, material on anti-Semitism in a specific country from anti-Semitism should be moved to existing articles e.g. history of the Jews in a given country and/or history of that country. --Ttyre 10:50, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
I see your point, but in the current state I vote delete (and then possibly recreate and reweite this article as I suggested above).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: The VfD tag says explicitly that "You are welcome to edit this article." The major rewrite that Piotrus executed solves problems raised by nine delete votes (so far) (see here). Wouldn't it be hypocritical to vote delete on account of severe POV, yet revert the article when the POV is fixed? On numerous occasions, VfDs were the cause of major improvement to articles during the VfD. Many times, those improvements caused the articles to be salvaged, having caused many to change their votes. Please don't manipulate the votes of others because you don't want the article at all. HKT 17:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Again, why do you want to create a redundant article thus creating a precedence for A-S + specific country? Look at the bigger picture and compare how A-S and the Holocaust-era past issues are being handled in specific country articles e.g. Romania, Hungary, Austria, etc. I would think that these countries, as major collaborators during The Holocaust, would deserve more of your and similarly-minded editors' attention. --Ttyre 18:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)--Ttyre 18:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't have much of a problem with creating such a precedent. This would allow sections on A-S by country (which would otherwise needlessly elongate the main anti-Semitism article) to have their own articles. I didn't start this article, but, now that it's here, why not use it as a precedent for streamlining the current main A-S article? As Piotr wrote, "It should be part of the series of Anti-Semitism in Germany, Anti-Semitism in France, Anti-Semitism in Italy, Anti-Semitism in United States, etc." And, by the way, I haven't cast a vote yet; I'm currently undecided about whether this is the time to move info from the main A-S article to individual articles. My comment wasn't a call to keep the article, per-se. It was a call to retain the integrity of the VfD, which I believe you have been compromising. HKT 22:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

There has been a suggestion that recent revert warring over very different versions of the page have been used to affect voting. Votes above this note were not informed of this and may need to be considered seperately. ~~~~ 22:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I want my vote to count in full regardless of where in the page it appears. My opinion is unchanged. -Splash 15:18, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Molobo (talk · contribs)'s 24th edit. Also involved in anti-Polonism VfD. HKT 03:00, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep and cleanup - This is a valid topic and the article contains good information. Clearly it needs to be cleaned up, but deleting it is a mistake - just because Poles don't want to deal with this subject doesn't mean it didn't happen. GabrielF 15:56, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Please read justifications for deletion again, most votes for deletion are also for merging its content with existing articles. Please be more considerate when tempted to use such a POV-ed ethnic stereotyping, see: Misplaced Pages:Civility. --Ttyre 16:39, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect to History of the Jews in Poland. Article is POV. This is the most reasonable solution. Cautious 19:28, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete and merge where applicable. Otherwise a useless rant. Agree with User:Ttyre. --Wojsyl (talk) 21:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • merge/redirect content into History of the Jews in Poland: it already covers antisemitism, like all other ] articles, see Category:Jewish history. mikka (t)
  • That's a very important subject. However, both sides of the edit war clearly don't have a clue about anti-Semitism in 20th/21st century Poland. There are many disturbing things in longer version's description of pre-20th century events. It uses mostly secondary sources and an almost exclusively focuses on anti-Semitic events to the exclusion of background information. It doesn't look like an article written in good faith. Where's the information about Jewish position in the social structure of the First Republic, about the situations of other faiths in it, about Jewish involvement in socialist and communist movement, the conflict between the socialists/communists and Polish nationalists which fed early 20th-century anti-Semitism, about anti-Jewish pogroms in czarist Russia which also spread to occupied Poland, about situation of other minorities in the Second Republic, cooperation of Jews in occupied Poland with the Soviet government, about involvement of many usually "anti-Semitic" nationalists in anti-Holocaust activities, and about usage of word "Żyd" to mean "member of the leftist/liberal conspiracy" by the modern nationalists (that's why asking people questions on anti-Semitism in Poland is futile - the nationalists believe they're answering different question than one the inquirer believes he's asking) ? It's a horrible article. I, for one, don't think it's possible to write a good article on the subject alone, while leaving the background information elsewhere. Therefore I'm strongly for deleting the article and redirecting to History of the Jews in Poland. Taw 08:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't think that anyone wants to keep either version as the final one. Both would need major improvement. However, while History of the Jews in Poland provides a good summary of anti-Semitism in Poland, it doesn't really get into background and underlying dynamics, which you have said are important. It also doesn't get into the controversies regarding the extent of and reasons for anti-Semitism. I think that, theoretically (at least), this article would be necessary for a more thorough analysis of this topic. However, as Piotr mentioned, someone should be willing to work on this article. I don't really foresee that for the near future, but there will certainly be a time when this article will be needed. HKT 16:28, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

The article's special nature, deals with an atypical problem. Jews were afforded comforts by the rulers of Poland, but most of the Christian citizens did not enjoy this relationship between them. When Jews were going around the world to proclaim their own pain in reference to the Holocaust, Poles felt left out and anti-Semitism rose by clear margins. Whilst Christian Poles were treated somewhat different from the Jews by the Nazis, the rest of the world did not know the background to German-Polish violence. I have a feeling that the naysayers of this vote are tied to the page here: Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Polonism Is it true, that none of you care about the Poles but are frothing at the mouth to feel pity for the Jews? There is much ignorance of Central and Eastern European social history, in Western eyes. TheUnforgiven 00:29, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

But what does it have to do with this, clearly POVed, article? Halibutt 01:06, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Fix the POV, but the article is salvageable on the bases specified. Don't take it personal. TheUnforgiven 01:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree with you - sure, the subject you bring up is an interesting one and should be covered - just not here. The current article is highly redundant - as stated in the vote above. Furthermore - it does not deal with the interesting issue you raised. I suggest you write a new article on the above subject, name it something like "Impacts of WWII, the holocust and Sovietic rule on the anti-semitism in Poland" (I'm sure you can come up with a shorter name) and let this one be gone. Orion from he.wiki

I wonder, is there anybody here who will actually promise to work on this article? While I am working to FA History of the Jews in Poland, I doubt I will have much interest and will to work on this subarticle much. Anybody else? Beacuse if nobody is willing to improve this, then perhaps delete is the best option after all. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

No that is not right. There are hundreds of unfinished articles that need to be cleaned up. TheUnforgiven 21:24, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting quotes by user 83.109.XXX.XXX (who created this article):

  • "I don't see the Holocaust against the Palestinians mentioned in the Israel article!"
  • " believe the Zionist needs to be banned from editing this page. Or what do you say, Gustav and Heimdal? Should we go to the Israel article and make it primarily an article about the Jewish ethnic cleansing, occupation and genocide of the Palestinians? Perhaps the United States should mostly deal with the genocide on native Americans, Africans and Abu Ghraib, preferably with a lot of the well-known pictures from the camp?"
  • "Half of the German parliament, i.e. the conservative opposisition, voted against this very controversial memorial the socialists have set up in Berlin on behest of a mentally disturbed communist known as "Lea Rosh", a women who like to pretend to be Jewish (to attract publicity) but is actually not Jewish at all and have changed her name from Edith Rohs. This person has sued newspapers who wrote about her name change. I'm sure the Rohs memorial will be removed following the next federal election, along with the much discussed wall memorial"
  • "Local politics of Saxony belongs in the Saxony article. And NPD is not a "neonazi" party, but a nationalist party (they use the term national democrats). Alleged similarities with national socialism may be described in the article dealing with the party, though"

--Witkacy 00:47, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

This voting, contrary to the concerns of some voters, is not about eliminating the material related to anti-Semitism in Poland but about improving the quality and reducing its redundancy. Efforts of the editors working diligently on History of the Jews in Poland during the last couple of months is a best example of this process. It is also about counter-acting the disruptive action(s) of User: 83.109.165.120 who, according to User:Witkacy, is utilizing a number of IP addresses to inject provocative and POV material . Resurrecting an extremely POV version of the article Anti-Semitism in Poland, this user has tried to raise the temperature of various discussions on Polish-Jewish issues and further antagonize involved editors. IMO, wiki is not only about creating good articles, but also about relating them to each other. This point is well illustrated in the Database normalization concept. Accordingly, a good example of de-normalized material has been Chmielnicki Uprising for which redundant and sometimes conflicting material appears in: Chmielnicki Uprising, Anti-Semitism, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Piotrus’ version of Anti-Semitism in Poland, and others. --Ttyre 17:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

"Resurrecting an extremely POV version of the article Anti-Semitism in Poland...."
A minor correction: The anonymous user created the POV material. However, when that user later tried to resurrect Piotr's more NPOV version, he/she was repeatedly reverted by User:Witkacy and User:Ttyre. HKT 17:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)