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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Verbal (talk | contribs) at 21:01, 2 April 2009 (→Talk:Aspartame controversy: q). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome!

Hello, Immortale, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date.

If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! 

Regards, —Cesar Tort 22:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Cesar, I didn't realize it was you who welcomed me and running the show here (smile). (Immortale 15:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC))

Edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Aspartame controversy. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. — Scientizzle 16:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Help with the Aspartame article

Its great that you are willing to work on the Aspartame article. However, my experience with new and angry editors is that they often break a number of WP policies and Guidelines and get blocked. If you want to make a lasting contribution I would suggest that you spend some time to understand WP:RS WP:NPOV and other rules. WP editing can be rough and your opponents are really good at Wiki-lawyering.MaxPont (talk) 15:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

January 2009

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Aspartame controversy. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Verbal chat 14:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Blocked

.

Immortale (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I used the Talk page, consensus was reached by a majority of contributing editors, waited 25 days for any more comments until I added my edit, assuming WP:Silence_and_consensus. User:Verbal disagreed and removed it without discussion, accused me of misreading policy. User:Verbal seldom debates issues, and boldly removes edits that are not according to his side of the article.

Decline reason:

Next time this happens, please use Dispute resolution or other solutions suggested at WP:EW rather than repeatedly reverting --fvw* 20:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

3RR on Aspartame controversy

Hi Immortale. This message is regarding the 3RR report regarding yourself found here. One of the policies here is the three revert rule, which really was set up to avert revert-warring on articles. On Aspartame controversy, over a 24 hour period, you have made 3 reversions to the article, with an IP edit that was reported to be you accidentally logged out making a fourth edit. Even discounting the IP edit, the reversions you made are considered as edit-warring on the article, and I have blocked you for 36 hours pursuant to this, given a prior 3RR block on the same article. My suggestion is to look over WP:3RR one more time. Many editors find it best to adhere to no more than one reversion in 24 hours, and to take things to the talk page at that time (and not to make reversions or edits equivalent to reversions on the article). As always, if you disagree with this block, you are welcome to use the {{unblock}} template for a second administrator to review the situation. Thanks for understanding -- Samir 05:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, I work on the article in between a lot of other things not related to Misplaced Pages and I'm not always aware of the clock. In my defense, a trap was laid out by user:Tom harrison, who is a very experienced Wikipedian, and inserted a reference to a bogus site, more specificly, to a forum that contained a pasted text from another unqualified site according Misplaced Pages policy. I should have known better but will enjoy the extra holiday from Misplaced Pages nevertheless. Immortale (talk) 16:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sock. :) Can you point to where/when the reference you mention above came into play? Unomi (talk) 11:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I first must say that you have an incredible patience, because what you had to endure from some mean-spirited editors was not nothing. You recognized an editorial injustice and stuck by it and tried to get neutral opinions. It's good that you didn't fold because of the intimidation thrown at you. Anyway, the above mentioned reference is and the removal of that edit by me . There are some dirty games being played in the aspartame article. I appreciate it that you devoted your time to fight that. Immortale (talk) 16:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I took it as an experience ;) It is interesting to note that when looking at the old talk pages many of the very same discussions have come up again and again, with editors being discouraged to continue working on wikipedia as a result. Karloff, should he not return, would just be the latest in a long line of casualties. The Aspartame sources have also repeatedly come up on WP:RSN: Published means published, and others that you were directly involved in. I was searching thru leda, and there are 4 articles with 'aspartame' as a keyword on the Harvard server (Cornell seems down, so you have to select search local). I found it somewhat amusing to see that one of the arguments of Hayes that is consistently given is that for the mouse experiment they should have looked at the control group for indication of baseline cancer incidents. The Ramazinni (sp) experiment was criticized for having 'abnormally' healthy control groups. To be totally honest with you; I don't care one way or the other if Aspartame gives you cancer or makes your pee glow in the dark. I do care about getting the details right though :) I am going to try to approach this as an exercise in Great Article midwifery. I am sure we are going to have a lot of fun with it. Unomi (talk) 17:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk page guidelines

Please do not use talk pages such as Aspartame controversy for general discussion of the topic. They are for discussion related to improving the article. They are not to be used as a forum or chat room. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages. See here for more information. Thank you. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 21:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to use talk pages such as Aspartame controversy for inappropriate discussion, you may be blocked. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet

Please see this sockpuppet investigation.OrangeMarlin 04:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry and block

After behavioral analysis of the User:Unomi account and your edits I have concluded that you are apparently violating our policy against abusive sockpuppet accounts, by creating a second account and using it to edit war and avoid 3RR sanction and make it appear that multiple users' viewpoints are being argued by reinforcing each others' contributions on Talk:Aspartame controversy and other pages.

This type of behavior is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Discussions and debates should be aboveboard and conducted without subterfuge and false reinforcement.

As this was a fairly serious violation of Misplaced Pages policy, I am blocking your apparent main account (Immortale) for one week. I am blocking Unomi indefinitely.

Please do not create any further accounts or attempt to edit pages other than your talk page during the time that you are blocked.

I appreciate that this is a topic which you consider important. However, it is never acceptable to try and "cheat" Misplaced Pages discussions in this manner, no matter how right you feel about it.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Unblocking

Checkuser evidence indicates that the behavioral identification I made above was likely a mistake. While it is not impossible that you and Unomi were somehow working together, the checkuser was emphatic that you're not anywhere close to each other.

Reexamining the evidence, while your cooperation with Unomi and behavior were extremely suspicious, I don't see enough cause to conclude that you have to be coordinating at a distance somehow if you really are some distance apart. While I am still suspicious about some behavioral similarities, we have a higher standard of evidence than mere suspicion, even by experienced administrators. I don't think I can meet any reasonable burden of proof versus a verified geographical distance between you two.

On that basis, I have unblocked both of your accounts. While your behavior raised eyebrows and caused me to investigate in more depth, if you really aren't coordinating with Unomi then there's nothing about the current behavior that requires an administrator to intervene at this time.

I apologize for the disruption the block caused.

I want to ask you to make an effort to cooperate with OrangeMarlin on a civil and constructive basis - there is obviously some pain and distrust there now. Hopefully you all can get past your mutual distrusts and cooperate on making the encyclopedia better.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

And not a second too late as I was just typing up a reply. Next time look at the evidence first. I haven't created any accounts and haven't worked together with any of the other editors behind the scenes. Orangemarlin is behaving very disruptive and acts like he has special privileges after 25,000 edits. That sort of behavior happens in the real world as well. I have contributed to Misplaced Pages using the guidelines it requires. They know it, but they try finding ways to get me blocked because of their disagreement with my contributions. Immortale (talk) 08:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

You should take this as a warning about your editing, not a vindication of it. Verbal chat 08:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not seeing this as a warning because I cannot be held responsible whenever an individual comes along, which makes edits that agree with some of my edits. My edits were made within wikipedia's guidelines, and some of yours were not. Your edits - even wrong ones - get the support from your buddies, and only when I got a neutral third opinion, they undid your edits. When someone comes along who is not hostile towards my edits, this whole witch hunt starts. Focus on the article please. Immortale (talk) 09:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Before I blocked, I spent over an hour and a half, and I looked at literally hundreds of edits of yours and Unomi's and Karloff's, looking at times of editing, what content you added or removed, edit comments, and sources and references used. This was not a slapdash or rushed block. If I had not been concerned over the behavior your accounts were displaying I would not have invested an hour and a half in reviewing activity. I also ruled out Karloff's account as related, based on that behavioral comparison, despite OrangeMarlin's being convinced he or she was part of this.

It is extremely rare for multiple accounts to appear like that, with a similar viewpoint which is on the fringe of normal scientific belief, and for there not to be some sort of coordination to push an agenda on Misplaced Pages. We do these sorts of investigations all the time. The hit rate for confirming as sockpuppets with the checkuser, once we proceed with an investigation that far and conclude based on behavior that it's likely enough to act, is extremely high. Many many many actual abusers are detected for every case of mistaken identity such as we appear to have here.

I don't want to be as forceful as Verbal was above - I did make a mistake - but I did the investigation because there was an apparent editing problem. If there was no apparent problem I would not have spent so much time on it. I don't want to get involved in resolving that - the action I took and its being a mistake mean I've got a conflict of interest now. But I again strongly urge you to try and cooperate with OrangeMarlin. I asked him to do so with you.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:54, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

If you ever have another hour and a half to spare, compare Orangemarlin and Verbal. They are 2 people, but because of their convictions, have many similarities in their edits. That's not unusual in people. There are many abusers and cheaters on Misplaced Pages and I applaud anyone to fight that. You have my cooperation. Immortale (talk) 09:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm still blocked?

Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s): Autoblock #1352448 lifted or expired. Request handled by: Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Unblocking administrator: Please check for active autoblocks on this user after accepting the unblock request.

Sorry about that. This was an automatic mechanism, not something someone did to you. The autoblocks kick in under some circumstances like this - which was unfortunate, because I was in the process of unblocking you as the autoblock came on. Let us know if it happens again. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Aspartame controversy

Might I convince you to amend this edit? The clause (in reference to reading the RS guideline) have you or do you just like to decorate your posts with wiki references? and the sentence There's more to say, but you probably come with another wiki abbreviation to justify what you're doing. add little or nothing to your point, and might be construed as rude. - Eldereft (cont.) 01:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

If User:Verbal doesn't contradict his edits with wikilawyering, there's no need for me to comment his edits. Many times he makes comments or accusations about me that have no ground and use Ad hominem arguments. If you bring "rude" into this, then you should have a look at his comments that many times contain false accusations directed at me (the whole sockpuppet ridicule for example that he hasn't dropped).This summary edit shows that he is rude by referring to me as a fringe editor while his edits are often incorrect quotes from the references he sources. He mentions edit warring while the reality is that no one reverts more edits than he in this article. And almost always without any discussion on Talk. Instead he keeps pointing to wiki laws. Is it a surprise that I get tired of his behavior? Immortale (talk) 19:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

This characterisation is laughably inaccurate, apart from the chilling accusation that I follow wiki "law". Yes, I follow wiki policies and guidelines, and I don't have to wikilawyer to do it. I think you'll find my behaviour considering the level of personal vindictive and baiting has been well within wikipedia norms. That is not the case for everyone, as shown by some participants block logs and agenda driven single purpose editing. Verbal chat 20:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Out of interest, and I'll no doubt regret this, but which part of my involvement in the mediation was unjustified in that forum? Verbal chat 21:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)