Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Maria Stella (talk | contribs) at 14:13, 6 March 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives
March 2004 – January 2005 January 2005 – January 2006

Erika Steinbach - born in Rahmel-Inhabitants Records since 1600's

Erika Steinbach was born in Rahmel (see in Westprussia, ( now Rumia, Poland), in direct vicinity of the Landkreis Danzig, Freistadt Danzig, in a part of Germany, which without plebecite of the local population, was with the Treaty of Versailles 'given' to Poland, but remained in Germany, until it was conquered by the Soviet Union in 1945.

Trip

You changed "One of her aims is to build a monument against forced migration in the centre of Berlin, devoted to German victims of the expulsion of Germans after World War II." to "One of her aims is to build a monument against forced migration in the centre of Berlin, devoted to Germans subject to the expulsion of Germans after World War II."

Obvious appeasement of a trip with hundreds of thousands up to two millions of German civilian deaths, most of who were according to a history book of mine woman and children.NightBeAsT 18:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I can see that the article causes much emotion. I don't see any problems in putting both names: Rumia and Rahmel. Simply many Polish people would not understand "Rahmel" and German people will not understand "Rumia". I agree that the expulsion of German people could not be justified in any way. The fact that Germans committed crimes on Polish citizens cannot be such justification, because the idea of colective responsibility cannot be accepted. On the other hand it is also the fact that Erika Steinbach's status as an expelled person is problematic (which was mentioned in the article). It does not change the fact that any forced migration is wrong and displacement of Germans was wrong. On the other hand I have an impression that Germans tend to put pressure on Poland, the Chech Republic, but not on Russia. They say very little of the expelled from Königsberg for example. Jasra 00:46, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

You are right. Having Russia as a friend has been more important for German governments after the end of the Cold War, for many reasons. For example does Germany need Russian energy, and the Russians also need the Germans. If I remember correct Yeltsin in 1991 offered to sell East Prussia back to Germany, however the Germans declined since that area is in a horrible condition. Maria Stella 10:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it about expulsion of Germans only, or all expulsions, regardless of nationality ? --Wojsyl 12:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The centre is especially focusing on expulsions of Germans, naturally, but will also deal with other expulsions, for example the ethnic cleansings of the Balkans. Maria Stella 10:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

war of names

It does not look very serious when one person changes something and the other reverts the changes and things repeat many times. What is wrong in putting two names? In German the locality is called Rahmel, so in German sources the name Rahmel is used. In Polish it is Rumia, so the name Rumia is used in Polish Misplaced Pages. This is English Misplaced Pages and there is no English name for Rahmel/Rumia so I think to preserve NPoV both names should be used. Regards, Jasra 22:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Space Cadet 23:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

(Because my web browser crashed deleting what I had written and my comment to Molobo about it on his talk page fell victim to a wave of mass deletions days ago, I'll keep the explanation short this time so as not to waste more time.) The town was German from 1772 until 1920 so I find the stress of its Polishness a bit biased. (in cases of Polish towns, Molobo would insist on pointing out they were Polish before) I think the idea of double-naming meets both sides' approval (and looks really messed-up in the text) and is not too incongrous to the Talk:Gdansk/Vote (dearly "beloved" by Space Cadet:-). How about including this source . Molobo called it a "very POVish article" so in reality it may be qualitative. Sciurinæ 01:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The town was German from 1772 until 1920 so I find the stress of its Polishness a bit biased. As a result of aggression against Polish state and 148 years of putting down Polish uprisings. --Molobo 10:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Rumia/Rahmel naming issue

Both the proponents of "Rumia" and "Rahmel" seem to have a very essentialist approach to the naming problem: Names are not inherent to places, but mere conventions by the people referring to them. There are no single and universally correct names for places, things, and sometimes not even for people.

The sentence about the " Polish village renamed by Nazi administration to German name of Rahmel (the name before Nazi occupation was Rumia)" reads as if "Rahmel" was a new invention by Nazi administrators which had never been in use before, like "Litzmannstadt" for Łódź (Lodsch in common German) or "Gotenhafen" for Gdynia (Gdingen). This is evidently incorrect.

Contrary to what both Polish and German contributors to this debate seek to imply, the population of the area that Rumia/Rahmel/Rëmiô belongs to had been ethnically mixed for centuries, and many people were bilingual. Not surprisingly therefore, the place was called different names by different people at the same time, and, even more so, at different times. I think there is no dispute that the area was inhabited by a centuries-old German-speaking minority even when it was part of the (multi-ethnic) First and Second Rzeczpospolita. These people referred to the village as "Rahmel", and this name did not become "illegitimate" ex-post just because it was later elevated to the official name by the Nazi invaders.

Finally, the whole area was a stronghold of Kashubian, which linguists categorise as a separate language, not a dialect of Polish (even if it has neither an army nor a navy). Therefore, the Kashubian version Rëmiô may have a stronger claim than either Rumia or Rahmel. --Thorsten1 11:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I think there is no dispute that the area was inhabited by a centuries-old German-speaking minority

Please provied sources confirming your POV.

The German minority was very small in Poland prewar-just circa 700.000 people.

http://raven.cc.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/lect11_files/11pic2.jpg

Pomerania 1921-18 % of population is German speaking

Poznan 1921-16 % of population is German speaking

Upper Silesia 1921- 42 % of population is German speaking

According to p.27 of the Reich Statistical Yearbook for 1941 the population of the territories :annexed from Poland was as follows in June 1940:

Province Ostpreussen: 994,092.

Reichsgau Danzig-West-Preussen (not including Danzig): 1,487,452.

Reichsgau Wartheland: 4,538,922.

Prov. Schlesien: 2,603,550.

General Gouvernment: 12,107,000

According to p.6 of "Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans from East-Central Europe" Volume 1, (Bonn, 1954) the following was the German population of these areas when they were annexed from Poland in 1939:

Polish Territories attached to the Provinz of Ostpreussen: 31,000.

Polish Territories of the Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreussen: 210,000.

Polish Territories of the Reichsgau Wartheland: 230,000.

Eastern Upper Silesia: 238,000.

Generalgouvernment: 80,000.

--Molobo 12:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Molobo: Please remember to indent your posts more carefully. Your editing style on talk pages tends to make discussions you are involved in unnecessarily difficult to follow (here is another example).

I do not understand how the population statistics of Eastern Upper Silesia or the Generalgouvernement are supposed to relate to this issue. But never mind that - your habit of bulk-quoting large portions of not-quite-on-topic text to talk pages is well documented and one just has to put up with it.

You quoted my statement "I think there is no dispute that the area was inhabited by a centuries-old German-speaking minority", asking "Please provied sources confirming your POV." Please read up on the history of the region in a library of your choice. I have no reason to "provide sources" for something which is not "POV" but a commonly accepted fact. The existence of this minority is not questioned by anyone, to the best of my knowledge; in fact, you yourself are referring to it a few lines below your question: "Pomerania 1921-18 % of population is German speaking".

Whether the German minority in inter-war Poland was "very small" depends on what you compare it to, of course, but this is not really relevant. What is relevant is that a German-speaking population, which would refer to Rumia as "Rahmel", existed in the area well before 1939. Thus, the German invaders did not have to invent a name for this village when they occupied the area (as they had to with "Litzmannstadt" and "Gotenhafen"). Putting such artificial and ideology-laden inventions on par with the historical name of Rumia is incorrect and unfair to non-Nazi German speakers who used the name "Rahmel". --Thorsten1 20:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

There ware Germans in Cracow and Warsawo also-shall we know rename Warsaw and Cracow to Warschau and Krakau ?

--Molobo 21:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

No, but we shall not insinuate that the names "Warschau" and "Krakau" are short-lived Nazi inventions. Get my point now? --Thorsten1 21:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Concerning 1939-1945, yes it was a Nazi invention to name those cities so. Likewise renaming Rumia was made by German state not by initative of local people.

--Molobo 21:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Molobo, as always, please indent your posts properly, so that the structure of the discussion remains clear.

"yes it was a Nazi invention to name those cities so". One would hardly expect the Nazi authorities to use the name "Warszawa" in German (although they did so in official instructions and announcements issued in Polish). But that does not mean that they invented the name "Warschau" in 1939, or that it would be incorrect for Germans born there to state "Warschau" at their birthplace (as it would be to use the name "Litzmannstadt", even if may have been the "offical" name for a couple of years). However, this is what the sentence " Polish village renamed by Nazi administration to German name of Rahmel (the name before Nazi occupation was Rumia)" implies. Get it now? --Thorsten1 08:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Centre Against Expulsions - "knowledge" vs. "unknowledge"

I totally agree with Kusma that the section should be merged with the main article on this centre. Quite apart from any other defects, the section discusses details of the centre and the debate which do not relate to Steinbach as a person.

While I'm at it: I removed the following sentence "It is unknown if Steinbach exposition will deal with expulsions of milions of Poles from Polish areas by Germany during the war such as the 'ethnic cleansing' program to rid the Warthegau area of Poles and to resettle the 'cleansed' areas with ethnic Germans." In the edit summary, I explained that "if it is unknown we should not include it here." Molobo restored that sentence, saying in the edit summary that "If its not it speaks well about the bias of the organisation."

Now, the whole point of an encyclopedia is to record knowledge, i.e. things that are known. As long as something is unknown, one can only speculate about it, and we are not supposed to do that here. The (merely assumed) absence of the 'ethnic cleansing' in Poland, which preceded and indirectly caused the expulsion of Germans, would indeed imply the project's inherent bias. But we are not here to expose any bias by letting things "speak well" about it. We are here to provide facts based on which readers can make up their own minds. The sentence Molobo is defending is not helping people to make up their own minds - it is blatantly trying to manipulate them. This is perfectly legitimate and common practice in opinionated journalism, but totally out of place in any encyclopaedia. --Thorsten1 21:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Now, the whole point of an encyclopedia is to record knowledge, i.e. things that are :known. As long as something is unknown, one can only speculate about it, and we are not supposed to do that here

Incorrect-Misplaced Pages lists quite huge number of topics that remain unknown ranging from aspects of physics to history. However if mentioning the fact of avoiding remembering German genocide by the organisation hurts your feelings about objectivity, feel free to remove it.

--Molobo 21:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

As for the format of your above statement - again, please remember about proper indentation. As for the rest: Again, it's utter nonsense. --Thorsten1 23:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Stop the Edition War

For a few days we have been observing an edition war, mainly, though not exclusively between Space Cadet and Stella. There is no point in writing one edition only to have it erased by someone else.

So far there are a few points we cannot agree on:

1) Rahmel or Rumia - which name is primary? I think there is no point in discussiong that. We should say "in Polish Rumia, in German Rahmel" (actually Kashibian name can also be added) without arguing who renamed what. Actually Thorsen is right I think it was not renaming, just using German name (e.g. in the same way we have Roma in Italian, Rome in English and Rzym in Polish).

2) Discussion about her expelee status. From logical point of view it can be discussed. Her father was sent to Poland as an occupier (of course it is not her fault), so he was in Poland illegally. If there was no agression she wouldn't have been born in Poland. At this point her status can be disputed. On the other hand I would not make the difference between those who escaped because of the approaching frontline or those who were expelled by any legal or illegal administrative decisions. The fact that their family did not wait for the Russians and escaped does not allow questioning her status. Of course if German law allows her the status of an expelee this is the fact and should be stated.

3) The Centre - I would also prefer putting this part to Centre rather than Erika Steinbach article. If the doubts are raised they should be mentioned. Although I removed the last point talking about colaboration with Nazis. Colaboration of local Germans with Nazis cannot justify expelling the whole population. The fact that Nazis applied colective responsibility did not allow anyone to apply collective responsibility.

Regards, Jasra 23:39, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

She was not born in Poland as it was in Germany at the time of her birth (1943). Her father was stationed in Germany fully legally. The problem here is users introducing original research without any references, and even falsifying what the references others have cited does actually state. Any claim withouth references regarding her birthplace should be removed. See Misplaced Pages:Cite sources. I cannot see why the current version which state both the German and the Polish name should not be acceptable for everyone. It was Rahmel when Steinbach was born and is Rumia today, simple as that. History is history and we need to stick to the facts. Regarding the claim that her expellee status has been questioned, we also need references. Maria Stella 02:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Maria, when you are replying to other people's posts, please indent your replies with one or more colons so that we can see what exactly you are replying to.

"She was not born in Poland as it was in Germany at the time of her birth (1943)." As I and Jasra have pointed out above, the question is not that easy to resolve. Even if you argue from a legalistic point of view and say that the are was legally German territory, and not foreign territory under German occupation (like the Generalgouvernement), you cannot simply ignore the fact that this incorporation was never recognized internationally. Even you could provide evidence for the contrary -- which you can't, of course, but let us assume you could -- there still remains the issue of legality vs. legitimacy. By assuming an uncompromising position, you are only justifying the equally uncompromising position of the opposite party.

"Regarding the claim that her expellee status has been questioned, we also need references". As I explained in an article version that has been reverted twice by Molobo and Space Cadet, "her legitimation to speak on behalf of the German expellees has been questioned. However, in terms of the 1953 German Federal Expellee Law, she has official expellee status." I do not know if her legal status has been questioned; however, this is not really important, as this status does not even entitle to compensation benefits from the German state any more. What has been questioned -- not only in the Polish press -- is her moral and political legitimation to speak on behalf of the expellees, when she cannot even consciously remember having to leave the place where her parents happened to live for a short time only.

As for the question of the Bundestag source: You mentioned this on my talk page as well, and I posted a reply there. --Thorsten1 09:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

PS: Jasra: Thanks a lot for giving us your levelheaded opinion and demonstrating once again that there are reasonable Polish editors. The usual suspects might accuse you of fouling the nest, of being volksdeutsch or whatever, but don't let that irritate you. --Thorsten1 09:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Her family had to flee from her birthplace when she was 2 years old, and she then lived in a refugee camp until she was 7 years old. Do you or any other participant in this discussion share this experience? In any event, the article also state that her family roots are from Silesia. I still think we need more sources in this article, and especially for the claim that her expellee status has been questioned. Having lived in Germany for a couple of years, I never saw Steinbach's expellee status questioned by any serious politician.

As for the birthplace: Jerusalem being the capital of Israel is not "internationally recognized", but nonetheless Jerusalem is listed as the capital in the Israel article, simply because it is a fact. Rahmel was legally a part of Danzig-West Prussia in 1943, not of the General Government of Poland. I find it pretty irrelevant what the enemies of Germany did recognize or not. Surely Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and lots of other countries did not dispute German souvereignty. Maria Stella 13:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Sources and birthplace

As far as questioning her expellee status is concerned, the sources can be news material on Polish TV and in Polish press. The thing I remember best was a question a journalist (unfortunately I do not remember his name) asked on a press conference she had during her visit in Poland. I cannot literally quote his question, but I remember the content. He said: You were born near Gdynia in occupied Poland, because your father was an army officer. I have a question for you: "Would your organization grant the status of an expellee to a person who was born let say at the airport near Stalingrad (because some families came to visit soldiers there)" As far as I remember the journalist did not receive the answer to this question. I am not saying whether it is right or wrong to question her status, but I cannot agree that her status was never questioned or that the fact that it was questioned cannot be proved.

As far as German sovereignity over Rahmel/Rumia is concerned: you gave the example of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a de facto capital of Israel, but I have seen many maps where Tel Aviv is marked as the capital. So it is not as clear as you try to say.

Territories that used to be German or German occupied and now are Polish can be devided roughly into 4 categories:

1) Those which used to belong to Germany before 1945 and in 1945 were given to Poland (I don't want to discuss any historical reasons for that, just the facts are important) - in this case it can clearly be said that before 1945 it was Germany and now it is Poland. Wrocław/Breslau can be an example 2) Those which between 1918-1945 belonged to the Free City of Danzig, before that it was Germany (in medieval times Poland) and after 1945 Poland. The Free City of Danzig was supposed to have joint administration, but effectively Germans were more influential. 3) Those which were Polish between 1918-1939 and after German invasion were incorporated into the Reich. Most of these areas were German during the partitions of Poland, here Rahmel/Rumia can be an example. 4) Those which after the invasion in 1939 were made General Governship. (Cracow/Krakau/Krakow) can be an example.

The difference between 3 and 4 depended on the decision of German authorities. Both 3 and 4 used to be Polish and we can refer to them as to German-occupied. When Warsaw was occupied by Germans during the First Word War no one sys it was Germany then.

Regards Jasra 22:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

If her expellee status was questioned by some Polish journalist, I suggest we write exactly that in the article. Btw., if I were Steinbach, I wouldn't bother to answer the question of the journalist either, because the comparison with Stalingrad is ridiculous and the journalist knew it.

"Occupation" is a legal term. Either a territory is occupied, or it is not occupied. Sadly, this were historically defined only by the state controlling the territory. Territories which were made part of Germany did not have the status of occupied territory, and cannot be described as occupied. Warsaw, on the contrary, was never part of Germany, during the First World War it was taken by the Germans from the Russians and was only under military administration (like parts of France, the Netherlands etc. also were during WWII). It had nothing with German territory to do at all. It is no point in mixing together different concepts.

If Rahmel was to be described as occupied, we would have to describe lots of territories after the war as Polish-occupied Germany because the Germans considered them to be so (in German schools the maps until 1990 showed large parts of present-day Poland as "Polish-occupied Germany"). Maria Stella 12:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Good Lord, Maria... First, if we want to describe the place as if it legally belonged to Germany, then please provide some international document that says so. Otherwise we'd have to stick to international law, which never recognized the occupation of Poland. Should we follow your logic in all places and include other Nazi concepts in wikipedia as well? Western Prussia was as one-sided invention of the Nazi regime as, say, wunderwaffe or inferiority of Slavs.

Secondly, the question was not as absurd as you claim. If Steinbach was born in occupied USSR and not occupied Poland - would it make any difference? Different kind of occupation? Her father was a member of the occupation forces and, as proven by the IPN article, for instance, did not even have his flat there.

Let's move on, military occupation is when one nation's military occupy all or part of the territory of another nation. As Poland never ceased to exist nor there was any treaty ceding the Polish territory to the Nazis, the area remained legally a part of Poland, both before, during and after the war. If we were to follow your logic, we'd have to state that all people born in, say, Paris or Smolensk in 1942 were born in Germany. Furthermore, the German state could regard them as German citizens - or at least they would have the right to apply for German citizenship. Halibutt 01:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, BTW, the German term for an expelee is Heimatvertriebene, that is "expelled of one's homeland" is quite broad. If Rumia was Steinbachs homeland, then mine is Mars. Anyway, she is indeed legally an expelee in that the act of 1953 was focused on reparations to German citizens who left any property in the east. It included pretty everyone, both the expelled themselves, the soldiers who lost their watches on the front, the families who visited them and their parrot ran away - everyone. Which is also the source of the discrepancy between the number of people expelled and the number of "expelees"... Halibutt

Cleanup

This page has been a mess for over two years now. I decided to give it a try and perform a general cleanup. Hopefully this helps to settle the endless revert wars and discussions going in circles (I also archived the 233kb-long discussion here at the talk page, it must've been some sort of a record...). I migrated most of the info on the Centre Against Expulsions to that article's talk, as it had little to do with Steinbach herself and lots to do with the centre. I also expanded on her post-war life. It wasn't easy as the details of her life vary from interview to interview. The basic source I used was the GW article listed as a "general" reference.

Most of the changes are pretty self-explanatory, though there is one basic thing that might require some additional comment from me. The basic problem for many of those who revert warred over this article was the name of the place she was born in. Initially I thought that there might be some NPOV solution to the problem, but apparently there isn't. After two years I realize that this is a classical situation of two conflicting POVs, one represented by the majority and one by a minority. The problem is whether we accept the Nazi annexation of Poland or not. If so, then she was born in Rahmel, West Prussia. If not, then it was Rumia, occupied Poland. As the only state to accept the annexation of those areas by Nazi Germany was Nazi Germany itself, I decided to follow the version supported by the united nations and the international law ("no territorial changes through war" and so on). Hopefully this would end the dispute. Halibutt 04:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits. I can live with this version, and appreciate your contributions. The Rumia/Rahmel thing is not yet perfect, but then, as long as Rahmel is mentioned I am OK with it. (I don't have an alternative suggestion either) -- Chris 73 | Talk 08:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I know it's not perfect, hardly any compromise is... Halibutt 15:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The name

Rumia's official page has special section concerning the name, and it mentions that Rahmel was only given after Prussian takeover in 1772. I added this information along with link to Rumia's page with this info. --Molobo 10:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is the link: http://www.um.rumia.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=51

--Molobo 10:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

IMO it would perfectly fit into the article on Rumia. However, this is a biographical note of a person who was merely born there and discussing the etymology of the German name of the town where she spent little more than a year of her life here seems a bad idea. Part of the problem with constant revert wars here was that people (me myself included) wanted to put too much unrelated info into this article. We could avoid many problems by sticking as much as we can to her actual biography while moving info on Rumia, BdV or ZgV to respective articles. Halibutt 15:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The article already includes information on the town-I seen no reason for misleading "It was part of Poland and Germany" sentence regarding the name. We have official records as when the village was given a Germanised name, It haas the right to be as the fact about German occupation in 1939. --Molobo 17:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Just like the article on Rumia mentions the Polish Defensive War, which however does not mean that we should discuss things related to PDW and not to Rumia in that article. Please, Molobo, neither Steinbach invented the name or was there in 18th century. Why to mention something that is completely irrelevant here? German name is a German name, nothing more nothing less. Should we spam all articles where a German name is mentioned with etymology of the name? And what about Polish names? Should we add to the article on, say, Józef Piłsudski that his surname was coined in 16th century after the village of Piłsudy and then discuss the etymology of that name?

The article mentions both names as both were clearly in use at various periods in history. Full stop. Even Chris accepted the compromise solution - why can't you? Halibutt 18:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The article mentions both names as both were clearly in use at various periods in history This is misleading, the German name was used only during Partitions of Poland and Nazi occupation. This are only two periods when it was used. Why can't it be mentioned, instead of the elusive "various periods of history". Let us be clear-the name was used with aggression against Poland. --Molobo 18:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

German name is a German name, nothing more nothing less. German name may imply the location has German history. Thus it is important the give information why it has one, in order not to confuse the readers as to status of the location. --Molobo 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Because the place does have a German history. Auschwitz or Birkenau have a German history too, yet you don't add the etymology of the German name to all biographical articles on holocaust victims, do you. Sorry, but I fail to understand why is the etymology of the germanized name of Rumia so important here and not important enough to be included in the article on Rumia. Why don't you describe it there and end the issue? If people were interested in the history of that place, they would check that article. I don't like this miss Steinbach and I believe she is just a demagogic **** seeking power on the back of some 90 years old grandpas. However, this is a biographical article on her and I'd like to keep it as focused on her biography as possible. Halibutt 00:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I added

Alledged to "German victims", as whatever Germans were the victims in the same scale as people Germany tried to exterminate during World War 2 is a very controversial idea as seen in the words of the Jewish hero and survivor of German genocide Marek Edelman: They say they were evil and good Germans. But why didn't I have the luck during this whole time of finding a good one ? I didn't met a single good German, only those who hit me in the face.Yes I am sorry for the girl that died during expulsions.But I have no pity for the Germans as a nation.They put Hitler in power.German society lived for five years from occupied Europel; lived from me, and my friends.To me they gave two slices of bread, while Germans eated as much as they wanted. That is why it is important that they continue penance. Let them cry for long, long time - maybe then they will finally realise that to Europe they were the executionerThey don't deserve mercy, they deserve penance.And that for many generations, because otherwise their arrogance and haughtiness shall return We should avoid then sentences that could lead to disputes. --Molobo 17:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Molobo, read again. The article is far from victimisation of Germans or Germany. It merely mentions "victims of expulsion after World War II", nothing more, nothing less. The very fact that Germans were indeed expelled from various areas is not disputed by anyone. We might not agree on the interpretation of facts or the number of expelled, but the very fact that there were Germans expelled is undisputed. At the same time you claims that there is a dispute between those who believe that Germans were expelled and those who don't. That's why I'm reverting your "alleged victims of..." back to "victims of...". Halibutt 18:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

fact that there were Germans expelled is undisputed The sentence speaks about "victims" not about "expelled" the very term is propagand btw, as they were part of legal population transfer within Soviet Zone of control not from country to country. Neverhless "victims" is POV-as expelees include as it seems also colonists, soldiers, Nazi officials etc-they can be hardly viewed as "victims", or for example all those Germans that were part of 25% of German minority in Poland that engaged in diversion, sabotage or direct help to German Reich prior WW2 ? Are 82.000 members of Selbstschutz excluded from "expelled victims" ? Therefore as it can be seen, naming those people victims is POV, hardly everybody expelled was a victim. --Molobo 18:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Now then, you have a point here in that the "victims" might not be the best word here. On one hand the centre is to be devoted to those who were expelled, who by definition were "victims of expelling". However, as the centre might as well be devoted to "expelees" as per the German law (including those like Steinbach who never owned anything there and left the area long time before anybody expelled them), how about the wording I proposed now? In short, it's: One of her main aims is to build a controversial monumental Centre Against Expulsions (Template:Lang-de) in Berlin, devoted to the victims of forced population migrations or ethnic cleansing in Europe, particularly to the Germans displaced after World War II. The term displaced person is as NPOV as it gets. Halibutt 00:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Expelee status

Interestingly the law which somebody was nice enough to state "includes people who lost all kinds of property" is in fact worded different. In fact I wonder what property according to the author of that change Steinbach lost ? Was it perhaps some future property that would be hers if the chosen German nation would finally exterminate Poles as Hitler promised and settle their land ? Because I am unawere of her possesing anything in Poland. Anyway the law is indeed worded differently and includes also people who didn't lost property as I can see it. Here is the sentence : http://bundesrecht.juris.de/bvfg/__1.html I don't know if I am translating this right :

ohne einen Wohnsitz gehabt zu haben, sein Gewerbe oder seinen Beruf ständig in den in Absatz 1 genannten Gebieten ausgeübt hat und diese Tätigkeit infolge Vertreibung aufgeben mußte,

Without having a home, had his work or profession in named areas which he practiced, and because of expulsions he had to stop. What an interesting sentence. Are concentration camp guards expelees also according to German law if I am reading this right ?

Of course German law also makes it clear that people who were part of colonisation efforts earlier-for example during Kulturkampf when Poles were forced to sell their land to German colonists are expelees also: Heimatvertriebener ist ein Vertriebener, der am 31. Dezember 1937 oder bereits einmal vorher seinen Wohnsitz in dem Gebiet desjenigen Staates hatte, aus dem er vertrieben worden ist (Vertreibungsgebiet), und dieses Gebiet vor dem 1. Januar 1993 verlassen hat; die Gesamtheit der in § 1 Abs. 1 genannten Gebiete, die am 1. Januar 1914 zum Deutschen Reich oder zur Österreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie oder zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt zu Polen, zu Estland, zu Lettland oder zu Litauen gehört haben, gilt als einheitliches Vertreibungsgebiet. Basically this passage means that people who had earlier property in territories of Poland that were part of German Reich before 1914(!) and later were forced to move out of it are expelees also If I am reading this right. Now this not only justifies Partitions of Poland but also makes it legal for Nazi settlers to claim they are expelees if their families had some possesions in Poland earlier(as the expelee status passes over). German colonists from German Reich era are also expelees according to that right if I am reading this right.

All in all as can be seen the law is very broad and doesn't include victims but also others. Personally I am schocked that Germany has such nationalistic law, justifing(willing or not or aware or unaware) many discriminatory policies of German Reich and Nazi Germany towards non-Germans. --Molobo 17:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Maria Stella

The following was copied from Maria Stella's talk page:

Maria, pretty please, take your problems with the new version to talk before you blind revert to the version that caused so much stir. I've really done my best to make that article as NPOV as possible and it hurts me to see that people value my work so low. Halibutt 14:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to integrate some of the improvements, but the problems were not solved with your version. Basically, using Polish sources and Polish points of view in a biography on a German politician in English is wrong. The article should rely on mainstream German sources like her official biography. Maria Stella 17:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

She has no official biography so far. There are a plethora of more or less accurate biographical notes here and there. That's precisely why I used as many internet sources as I could. There's no rule in wikipedia that would require German or Zulu or Italian sources to be used anywhere, which however did not stop me from using mostly German and English sources If for some bizarre reason you don't like the Polish sources cited in the article - state that at the talk page instead of outright deleting them. Deleting content just because might be considered vandalism and that's not what you want, is it. Anyway, the Polish article and an interview with her were the basic sources used by yours truly and the potential readers of this article have the right to know that. The more sources we have the merrier.

As to your recent changes - you basically revert to the version from before my edits, especially in the most conflicting part. Could you please state what's wrong with the current compromise solution before you yet again revert? Halibutt 18:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

You are changing her place of birth to "Rumia, Poland, then under military occupation by Nazi Germany", replacing the reference to the (rather authoritative) Bundestag biography with an obscure "Blum" reference. First of all, Rahmel was not under military occupation. We have already discussed this. The claim that it was under military occupation when it was instead made an integral part of Germany is outright historical falsification. Rahmel did not have such a legal status. Secondly, it was not Rumia, Poland in 1943. It only became Rumia, Poland, after 1945 as well as the years 1920-1939. Thirdly, something called "Nazi Germany" did not exist. Colloquial names should not be used. Maria Stella 13:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Unilateral German annexations in the years 1939-1945 were not recognised by the international community. Balcer 13:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Which "international community"? I take it we are not going to recognize unilateral Polish annexations of German territory not recognized by Germany after the war, then? Maria Stella 13:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard of the Potsdam Conference? Poland did not annex any territory unilaterally, it was all done with the approval of all the Allies. I find your changes bordering on pushing Nazi POV. Please be careful here, this is a very touchy subject. Balcer 13:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Approval of Joseph Stalin & co. is not more valid than Axis decisions. The same rules must apply for all countries, special rules for Germany is bordering on racism and totally unacceptable. Maria Stella 14:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Approval not only of Stalin, but of Churchill and Truman, and most of the international community at the time who, to say the least, did not have too many kind feelings toward Germany at that point (see Allies of World War II). Balcer 14:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Rahmel was considered part of Germany by the state controlling the territory at the time of Steinbach's birth. That the former government of Poland did not recognize it (Polish irredentism) is really not relevant in this article. If it is relevant, it is also relevant in all articles dealing with Poles living in German territories annexed by Communist Poland that Germany considered the areas occupied part of Germany. Maria Stella 14:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Not only the government of Poland had a problem with Germany's annexation, by 1943 almost the whole world did, seeing as it was at war with Germany. Balcer 14:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a bilateral issue, over a territory which has switched sides several times in history, involving two countries. It not involving Rwanda, Niue or any other countries. The opinion of the enemies of Germany is not relevant and obviously POV. You don't base articles on George W. Bush on the opinion of North Korea either. Maria Stella 14:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)