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This is an archive of past discussions about Occupy Wall Street. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Archive 5←Archive 10Archive 11Archive 12Archive 13Archive 14Archive 15

Celeb section feedback please

Somebody added this:

Over one thousand authors have announced their support for the movement via “Occupy Writers”, an online petition that states “We, the undersigned writers and all who will join us, support Occupy Wall Street and the Occupy Movement around the world.” Signatories to the petition include Margaret Atwood, Noam Chomsky, Michael Cunningham, Jennifer Egan, Neil Gaiman, Naomi Klein, Ursula K. Le Guin, Jonathan Lethem, Ann Patchett, Salman Rushdie, Lemony Snicket, Alice Walker, and Naomi Wolf.

At the very least I believe the names should not be included, but I'm wondering if it should be included at all. The ref does not work... Gandydancer (talk) 21:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, very long and no reference - I'm going to remove it. Gandydancer (talk) 00:53, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

That would be me. Thought I'd got the ref correct. I've reinserted an edited graf that cuts down on the names (leaving a handful to demonstrate the range of genres represented) and imcludes a working link to OccupyWriters.com. Eventually, I'll get the hang of this. OldSkoolGeek (talk) 05:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Just find some discussion of it in a reputable news or other secondary source, and it will stay in (or at least have a good chance) (; Best. B——Critical 06:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Hopefully, if a second ref is found it will include the names so they do not need to be listed - that section already has a fairly long list of names of supporters. Gandydancer (talk) 13:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Ask and ye shall receive. :) I've included refs from the Guardian, the New York Observer, Slate magazine, and the Christian Science Monitor.OldSkoolGeek (talk) 14:46, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Oh! Well, perhaps too much of a good thing... I believe that it should be pared down a tad - not that it isn't perfectly good information, but we have just so much room in each article and everything must be weighed as to importance. I will wait and see what other editors think. Gandydancer (talk) 15:47, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

"Participants" section reads like a travel brochure

Section headings are competing with actual text for the actual space consumed; even after I removed a one-sentence section, there are still several more that are only one or two lines long. Everything is presented in the most positive light possible. One section, discussing a community board meeting at which widely reported complaints about protesters urinating and defecating on residential property were raised, instead cherry-picks only the most solicitous and encouraging quote from one of the residents, while euphemizing the complaints about urinating and defecating as complaints of "inadequate sanitation".

Besides perhaps closely inspecting the content for NPOV, I suggest we cut this section down to three subsections: Leadership and Demographics; a section called "Zucotti Park Camp" or "Conditions at protest camp" or something like that; and a section called "Impact on city". This would reduce clutter and eliminate the "this is an advertisement" feel, without diminishing organizational clarity. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 00:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I like that.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree as well. Gandydancer (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
See discussion below about economists. I made the suggestion that Sections follow MOS more closely so the smaller amounts of referenced information can be included into the relevant subsection until such time as they grow naturally to a size consensus agrees on.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:39, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Adbusters given too much credit for initiating the protests

The line in the summary that says "The protests were initiated by the Canadian activist group Adbusters." seems like unwarranted self promotion by Adbusters. Only two sources, one is Adbusters themselves and the other is very sensationalist. I would like to see this line removed or at least get much better citation.

89.160.135.47 (talk) 21:47, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I seem to recall seeing numerous sources talking about their central involvement. This doesn't seem a point that is especially likely to be challenged, notwithstanding the fact that you're actually challenging it, so I'm not sure we need extensive sourcing for this. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 21:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. This has been covered by major sources enough to satisfy the fact. We can check the current references to be sure they are not simply primary sources but the accusation that Adbusters themselves is self promoting is ridiculous and is an accusation of Conflict of Interest that has no basis that I can see and self promotion, even if proved is indeed a matter of consensus as to whether to include or not. Trust me on this one...I discovered an editor who had clearly linked himself to his edits with his real name on his article and with his contributions. The consensus of the ANI he brought was that he had a right to edit like anyone else, even editing or creating his own article and promoting himself. That alone is not against the spirit of Misplaced Pages. It's what the promotion involves and what each edit or contribution is. If an editor enters false information or attempts to remove facts that are referenced and fully support claims...then you have a problem.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The New York Times articles

97.87.29.188 (talk) 22:48, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Wealthiest Americans' Income Nearly Triples Wall Street Journal

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/10/25/income-growth-of-top-1-over-30-years-outpaced-rest-of-u-s/ Income Growth of Top 1% Over 30 Years Outpaced Rest of U.S. by Corey Boles October 25, 2011, 3:29 PM ET 97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The Economist resource

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/10/income-inequality-america Income inequality in America; The 99 percent ..."Occupy Wall Street" gets a boost from a new report on income distribution. Oct 26th 2011, 15:34 97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:54, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Chef Eric Smith resources?

97.87.29.188 (talk) 00:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a reference by Rebecca Rosenberg, New York Post, October 19, 2011 99.190.85.15 (talk) 03:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Reaction by economists?

Shouldn't we have a section on the reactions of economists? B——Critical 00:24, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd say so. Jesanj (talk) 00:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Do we really need yet another section. Is there any way to incorporate that somehow?--Amadscientist (talk) 00:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
It's true there are probably too many sections, but what do you suggest? B——Critical 01:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
It seems that economists would not really deserve a section as they are not any more or less important than any other academic reaction. I wonder if all reaction should be condensed into a few sections, Academic, Political, Public opinion, Private enterprise and International. Everthing else to be subsections within these, such as celebrity reaction within the subsection for public opinion.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:30, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
This would require the section of "Reaction" itself to replaced with individual "sections". It just seems more encyclopedic to me.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:36, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

You could do the main Reaction section (per MOS) and then subsections with their on sub subsections as shown below. 

== Section ==
===Subsection===
====Sub-subsection====

--Amadscientist (talk) 03:25, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

In this way we stick to the Manuel of Style Guidelines, allow for all relevant sections and inclusion of information and when weight is acceptable once an area is expanded enough for it's own subsection the article can grow naturally with less instability.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:31, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Right now the only section following this is Political reaction.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

resource The top fifth of households collected half of U.S. income in 2010. (from graphic)

Middle class' share of the nation's income is shrinking by Marisol Bello and Paul Overberg, USA Today 97.87.29.188 (talk) 00:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Please close quote by Slavoj Žižek with "

Please close quote by Slavoj Žižek with " ... Žižek talking at OWS cited on the Charlie Rose (talk show) (on now). 99.19.44.40 (talk) 04:21, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Done. B——Critical 04:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Parodies

A CNBC correspondent reported that Occupy Wall Street movement sparked parodies which aim to expand the movement to Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. An image of Luke Skywalker holding a protest sign was published: "It wasn't glamorous but I had a steady living working on my uncle's moisture farm. My aunt and uncle were unjustly murdered and the farm destroyed. I was forced to leave my home and join an extinct cult just to survive. I am now a member of an upstart movement to take down a greedy corrupt establishment. I AM THE 99%." Skywalker's enemies, the Imperial Storm Troopers joined the protest on another image circulating on the Internet holding signs: "End Galactic Corporate Greed", "Get Our Troops Off Tantooine" and "Keep Your Empirical Hands Off My Healthcare". Parodies relating to the Middle Earth include a woman which had written her complaint in Elvish, allegedly translated: "I spend every waking hour fighting orcs while Elrond and Galadriel eat lembas bread all day. I am the 99%". Guy Fawkes masks from the film V for Vendetta are used as symbols against corporate greed.

References

  1. Wells, Jane (24 Oct 2011). "Occupy Movement Is Out of This World". CNBC. Retrieved 25 October 2011.
  2. V for Vendetta masks: Who's behind them?

The section citing CNBC and BBC sources above on parodies was removed. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:05, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The material was removed without explanation, maybe because of its location as a sub-section of Reactions which is bloated as-is. I'll restore it as top-level section, right after Media coverage if there are no further objections. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 12:25, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Accept the current tags: POV + current event.

At first I thought, why can't they make the wiki process work and redact whatever, but then I realized better to just accept the tags as part of the site culture and move on as far as the article quality is concerned. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a consensus thing not a culture thing. =)--Amadscientist (talk) 02:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Judging by current state it's more of a vigour of youth thing. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 08:51, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Ravi Batra's support for OWS is notable

Two editors have made an assessment in the edit summaries that an entry on Ravi Batra does not merit inclusion in the "Celebrity reaction and involvement" section of the OWS article as Batra is not a "celebrity". This is a problem as the normal WP guidelines on notability are being suspended in this case. It has been shown that in terms of notability, the following entry merits inclusion in an article for a number of reasons.

On October 11, Ravi Batra wrote an article stating that the OWS movement heralds the end of "crony capitalism“. He argues that government policies since the Reagan Administration have greatly contributed to increase inequalities and economic problems in the U.S. and that the OWS movement should push for their repeal. Batra is being linked to the OWS movement due to his long standing prediction that “monopoly capitalism would create the worst-ever concentration of wealth in its history, so much so that a social revolution would start its demise around 2010.”

Ravi Batra is clearly notable as per general notability guidelines. While the coverage on him is clearly more in the 1980s and 1990s -- in the pre-internet era -- there is also recent coverage. The WP article on Batra testifies to this, as does the media coverage, as well as discussion of his ideas all over the net, including on the unofficial OWS web site. This has all been shown with reliable sources. Batra's life's work is also closely related to the OWS movement as brought out with RS above. In order to side step a subjective popularity contest among editors about Batra, it is therefore proposed that his entry be included in the article, but that a new place be found for it. Alternatively, it is proposed that the current celebrity heading be divided it into separate Writers and Artists sections.Plankto (talk) 08:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Being notable for the article or notable as an person of interest is not the same as Celebrity. It requires at least some form of secondary published reference to make the claim wouldn't it? Let's look at what Harvard says about academic celebrity: . Now lets see what we find if we search for Batra under the search term: . Immediately we see an LA Times article at the top of the search: . Then just down from there is a reference to him speaking of the term: . So there is what I can find. I am having a hard time with this to be honest. I find the term to be somewhat shallow and yet there are those that do find him to have celebrity status but is that really enough. There are other academics listed and quoted and they too have some small celebrity for their appearances, interviews and books but are those "fans" enough to qualify the person under the definition of celebrity for our purposes here? I am still trying to get a grasp on it to be honest and can't make an informed decision as yet.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
I see all "celebrity" reaction being under a section: "Public Opinion" as a subsection and artist and musician as sub-subsections.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:53, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the helpful information, Amadscientist, which establishes that Batra has been considered a "celebrity", as Gandydancer demanded be shown in his entry above on 18:20, 23 October 2011 and Andy0093 claimed Batra was not in his edit summary in the main article on 23:43, 26 October 2011. As these editors choose not to discuss the issue here, I suggest the entry be reinserted. It is the responsibility of the opposing editors to defend their actions on talk page, and not just revert with baseless claims in the edit summaries. In addition, and as shown in an irrefutable manner above, Batra is a notable in terms of this article. So, while his 15 minutes of fame may have come and gone, the notability remains. Personally, I'd like this discussion to end with a consensus, but that is not possible if those opposing the entry do not participate and just hop in and revert. Plankto (talk) 19:51, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
My vote: he's not notable. There's is no entitlement that consensus defend itself to a lone dissenter. After a point, consensus is set and should be respected. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 23:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
You're pushing your luck Plankto. As anyone here knows, I've discussed this issue extensively with you through the numerous threads you've started (what is it now, six?). But just for the record, I'll say it one more time: One Truthout article and two mentions in the Fort Worth Weekly do not make Batra notable. Gandydancer (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Dropping the stick and walking away from the dead horse carcus applies to winners of disputes. The Artist AKA Mr Anonymous (talk) 01:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Same here. I give up on this for now.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
One clear benefit of this debate for the article so far is the creation of a sub-heading for Authors and academics. It makes goos sense to separate the intellectuals from the entertainers - although these sections are still populated by a number of people less notable than Batra. But this is understandable in terms of the strong bias still felt against Batra. In June 2010, Gayle Reaves summed it up quite well in the third recent Fort Worth article about him titled "The U.S. Economy: Still a House of Cards":

"Almost no one likes his ideas –– excepts thousands of regular folks, business leaders, and admirers across a spectrum of professional disciplines, who may not agree with Batra on every point or on the depth of the doom he foresees but who believe that his theories ought to be included in the global debate now going on over how to fix the economy...“He’s brilliant. He should be on TV more. But he’s been excommunicated” by the economist community, Dimare said.""]

It should be brought out that the Fort Worth Weekly is a local newspaper for SMU where Batra teaches, and such continued interest is yet more indication of his still thriving local celebrity.
Batra's notability and relevance to this article is certainly not a dead horse issue, even if the zeitgeist in the US has yet to catch up with him, despite the recent developments. The national media, like the economics establishment, has still not forgiven his major wrong prediction for The Great Depression of 1990. However, his notability for this article arises from his continued promotion of concepts like the "share of wealth held by the richest 1 percent" and ideas about "Crony capitalism" and his foresightful predictions that the system would at some point crash -- no matter how wrong he had been earlier on the timing. Indeed, the US banking system has now experienced a major failure, just as he predicted it would. The Occupy Wall Street movement, like Batra, is protesting the unfairness of the fact that the adjustment to the financial crisis is yet again being borne by the increasing number of poor. According to the U.S. Census Bureau data released Tuesday September 13th, 2011, one in every six Americans is now classified as being poor! However, as none have come forward to offer explicit support for the inclusion of an entry on Batra here, in the face of opposition by a few editors, I leave this issue for now but will revert if relevant national developments warrant. Please note that according to WP guidelines, the requested time for settling edit disputes is three months Plankto (talk) 08:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 27 October 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

http://vimeo.com/30778727

CrackerJackWorks (talk) 12:55, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 15:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

November 2; launching a nationwide general strike, some resources

97.87.29.188 (talk) 00:39, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Talk:"22Occupy" protests # potential resource 99.35.15.107 (talk) 05:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
  1. Cite error: The named reference truth-out was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. Cite error: The named reference peoples-contract was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. Cite error: The named reference uprising was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. Cite error: The named reference prophet was invoked but never defined (see the help page).