Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 87.114.26.47 (talk) at 08:36, 4 June 2006 (→ciswoman and cisman are not in references). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article was nominated for deletion on March 29 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Pronunciation

How do you pronounce this word?

It is a soft C: sis-jen-der -Paige 17:25, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Origin

The term was created by Carl Buijs, a transsexual man from the Netherlands, in 1995.

I doubt very much that this is correct, because I am quite certain that I encountered the word in April 1995 in Germany, and I seriously doubt that it made it across the border in four months, especially since seveal people who had no other connection among themseves knew it, too. That makes it very unlikely in my mind that the date is correct. Not that I mind very much who coined it when, but we should check the source of that. It is not impossible after all that somebody else did coin it before, independantly, or that Buijs was just the first to print it. After all, everybody who has learned Latin or Chemistry would know the cis-trans pair of prefixes. Check for example: Usenet posting from 1996 -- AlexR 14:34, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I added an "unsourced" tag yesterday. I am tempted to Afd this article unless I see evidence that this neologism is independently popular. IF most cisgendered people have never heard the term cisgendered, then how common could this word be, really? Please show me some actual uses of this in an academic environment or else this word smacks of wikipedia:no original research. Me and my college buddies made up cool theories too, but they aren't encyclopedic. MPS 14:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

even real women?

I have removed the word 'even' in front of 'real woman'. I can't see why this word is necessary, and it adds POV to the article. AlexR and many other transgender people may not like the phrase 'real woman', many people use it. There is no reason to insert a POV to condemn that phrase. There appear to be two solutions, just remove the word, or remove the word and explain, in a NPOV way why, in particular, why the phrase 'real woman' is considered particularly inappropriate by some people. jguk 06:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

On the contrary, the word is necessary, and perfectly NPOV. Your claim that it cannot be NPOV because so many people use it is ridiculous, because a lot of people use "nigger" and "faggot" and similar words, but that hardly makes them NPOV. It also does not need explaining since it is quite obvious - claiming that transwomen are not "real" women is a point of view which is not only quite unpolite, but also completely indefendable, because each end every point that is usually attributed to "real" (=cisgender) women either does not apply to all cisgender women, or to transwomen as well. That has been chewed through thoroughly, and if you, who, by his own admission, knows little about transgender issues, doubt that, that is your personal problem, but certainly not NPOV, because you think so. So kindy stop your vandalism, you are really getting on my nerves. -- AlexR 11:48, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You have a strange interpretation of vandalism - something along the lines of 'if you write something I don't like, it's vandalism'. Anyway, you've put me off learning anything about transgender issues. And no doubt your uncompromising attitude to wording everything so that no viewpoint contrary to your own is expressed has put off, and will put off, many more. You seem to want to obliterate any phrase in a transgender article that implies that some people disagree with it, or take offence (and sometimes for good reasons, eg religious ones), and to intentionally include phrases that imply any questioning of a transgendered person's status is grossly unreasonable. You know full well the world isn't like that, and that there are many viewpoints alternative to your own. You may campaign for your views politically, but at least recognise that they are POV. Finally, however much you argue that people should not cause offence, I am fully aware that you are not adverse to causing offence yourself. Calling me a troll and then accusing me of launching a crusade, which you know is a loaded word found offensive by many, just because I disagree with some of your wording is as offensive as is unreasonable.jguk 22:21, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Funny, first you deal out offences, and then you complain when the replies are not polite enough. What do you expect? That trans-people are so thrilled by your alleged will to learn something about them that they don't mind if you insult them all the time? Uh, sorry, but no, not likely.

I am fully aware of viewpoints that deny transpeople the right to self-identification, self-expression and so on, up to the right to life itself. I am equally aware of positions that for example claim that black people are somehow inferior to white people, or Islam being inferior to Christianism (or plainly "wrong" and Christianism "right"), or that there is a Jewish conspiracy for world dominance and so on, but I sincerely doubt that anybody would get through with a request of changing the articles on black people, Islam, or Judaism into something that appeals to people holding such views. (And it's not for want of trying, either.) I don't see how this is any different; whether the reason for transphobia is allegedy religious or not; I have yet to see one argument against transpeople that does actually hold up to scrutiny.

As for the anti-trans-positions not being explicitly mentionend in most articles, well, nobody bothered writing much about them until now. And writing about them would mean to present this point of view as such, not inserting it into the article to make the article itself agreeing with this POV. Feel free to add such information, but remember, you ought to refrain from value judgements (like "good" religious reasons) nevertheless. -- AlexR 00:52, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

By 'good' religious reasons, I meant for reasons consistent with someone's honestly and strongly held religious beliefs, I didn't mean to express an opinion on whether they are 'right' or not, or indeed, any opinion at all on them. Apologies for using an ambiguous word that could be, and was, misconstrued. jguk 06:13, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I had at first removed "real woman" and "born woman" due to POV and inaccuracies, though this only highlights the nonsensicalness of the sentence in question. One can be biologically or genetically male or female but not be cisgender. Cisgender and transgender are about identification, not physicality. Dysprosia 06:10, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with that, however, they are actually used, that is why they were listed, not because they make much sense or anything. Given that people are likly to encounter them when reading about the subject, I therefore propose reinserting them, maybe with an explanation why they are phasing out of use and/or should do so. I can't think right now of any better article to put this information in. Inaccurate words to describe non-transgender people with seems a bit counterintuitive ;-) -- AlexR 07:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Let me have a try, and I'll avoid the use of the terms above just for fun ;) Dysprosia 08:18, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I did a few minor clarifications:

• Added a "probably" in the first sentence, see above for reason.
• Changed "Many transsexual communities" to "Many (particularly transsexual) communities" because while it is by now mostly ts communities, there are some non-ts-tg communities using those, too.
• has not "yet" gained - because that might change
• changed "biological" because the argument against that would be "well, but you were not born that way". Also, that is the counterargument I heard most often.
• changed "genetically" because a transwoman is not genetically a women, no way to deny that, unless in some very specific IS cases.) However, it is IS that lets that argument fall down.
• Clarified "born", too.

I have another problem with the following sentence - I really do not see what "cisgender" has in any way to do with reclaiming words like "nigger" or "queer". The word never was "reclaimed", and neither, for that matter, were transgender and transsexual, so what is this sentence doing there?

And I do not like the last sentence, either - "Cissies" "Cissen" (German) and "Cispeople" are all words I have heard actually used, so I don't quite see where the joke is, and where the "if" comes from. Or is that because in English it sounds like "sissies"? It is still used, sometimes, at least when the context is clear. -- AlexR 11:59, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

One Question

Removed the following addition by an IP here:

One question which must be asked in studies of cissexuality: does being cisgendered involve an active desire to be of the gender that one has been assigned, or is it merely a passive acquiesence, in which the gender one has been assigned is accepted as is, being neither actively desired or actively opposed.

This does not quite make sense. How can a desire to be be active or passive? What is the supposed difference here? And has anybody ever asked that question before? Because if not, I doubt the WP is the place to ask it. -- AlexR 06:20, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"hate speech"

Can someone please explain this?

The origination and use of cisgender can be compared to the reclamation of profane words and hate speech, such as nigger and queer.

How do they compare? "Cisgender" people are not "reclaiming" this word for themselves, are they? Rather, this is a word much more likely to be use by transgender people to describe those who aren't, and a more logical comparison is with use of "cracker" by black people or "breeder" etc. by gay people. —Ashley Y 06:47, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

Well, the reclaim part does need some explainig (by whoever put it in), but you cannot compare "cisgender" to "breeder" - that would rather be like "straight" or "heterosexual", which are not meant to be insulting or derogatory, either. -- AlexR 06:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I suppose "breeder" is a bit more derogatory, but I think there's a connection with usage: cisgender people themselves tend not to use the word, and probably still wouldn't even if more of us had heard of it. —Ashley Y 08:56, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)

That would depend, I guess - if people need to explain that concept, there is, I think, no reason not to use that word - just as with "heterosexual". Of course, a lot of people would use "normal" or similar, but that hardly means that "heterosexual" (or cisgender) is an irrelevant word. -- AlexR 14:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

biological/genetic

I find this sentence dubious:

Cisgender can be used in place of less accurate terms such as biological or genetic male or female since transgender people are also "biological" (rather than made from some non-biological material), while the "genetic" argument fails when one considers the genetic variations present in intersex people.

Clearly "biological male" (noun phrase) is meant in the sense of "biologically male" (adjective phrase), not someone who is separately "biological" (adjective) and "male" (adjective). Secondly, "genetic male" may or may not include intersex people but it seems to me at least as definitive as "cisgender". —Ashley Y 11:29, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion; the people who came up with this term, and those who use it, however, think otherwise. Of course, you are technically right about the first phrase; this, however, is probably the most common explanation one usualy hears when one asks why "biological (fe)male" is not the expression of choice. As for the "genetic" - if a phrase does not cover intersex people, it is useless in this regard. And furthermore, both "biological (fe)male" and "genetic (fe)male" can be understood to include transwomen (or transmen respectively), but a word was needed that specifically excluded them. (Not to mention the still unanswered question whether transgender has or hasn't a biological and/or genetic component, too, which would make both terms even more meaningless.) -- AlexR 16:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The issue is there is no real easy way to determine what is biologically male or female, or whether transgender people (especially an individual transgender person) fits in either one of these binary categories or is better included in the category intersex.

That is, what is 'biological (fe)male-ness' determined by? Genetics doesn't give you a definite answer, as there women with XY genotypes who have AIS. Is it the external genitalia? The hormonal milieu? The presence or absence of the HY antigen? The gonads? Secondary sex characteristics? To be honest, probably the best 'biological' definition of male or female that works across the spectrum of variety in nature is male = “makes small gametes” and female = “makes large gametes.” Of course that is clearly not the way in which the word was meant.

So what is the problem with using the term 'biological male' to describe transgender women (and vice versa)?

1) Well first off, it is not terribly respectful of the transgender person's right to self-identify. It buys into the idea that 'realness' is in one's biology and that a transgender woman is actually a biological (real) man. (This is to do with the latent rather than manifest meaning of the term. That is, while the definition means one thing, the common usage of the term and the way it is applied here implies another.)

2) Second it is probable that many people who are transgender represent a very subtle form of intersexuality. (If nothing else the brain – which is a sex dimorphic organ – having a sexed state that is incongruent with other physical characteristics. There is also some good evidence that even before hormones transgender men resemble an anthropomorphic middle between the female and male average, etc.) The more and more we learn about sex, gender, and developmental physiology, the more we realize that sex is less of a binary and more of a spectrum.

3) Thirdly if you are arguing that using biological male is somehow scientifically more valid or precise way of saying 'a male who is not transgendered' (which is what we are trying to do) that actually works less well than saying cis-gendered. That is, by saying 'biological male' (or 'legally male' – my other hated term) you are making implications that you may not intend to make. To a biologist in the field, 'biologically male' means “makes small gametes.” To a layman, 'biologically male' means “has a penis and testicles, makes testosterone, has XY chromosomes, and (if adult) has male secondary characteristics.” So if you use that term, not only does it not mean what you really meant to say, but it has different meanings to different people. Cis-gender just works a little better, I am coming to believe. Its like heterosexuality wasn't defined until we labeled people with same sex desire as homosexual. That is, the characteristic that the majority possess is not labeled as anything but 'normal' until you see people who vary from that norm. Then when the people who are vary from the norm are labeled (whether homosexual or transgender, the larger majority is labeled in reference to that – i.e. heterosexual and cisgender.) Nick

I find the entire paragraph highly POV and have removed it. Personally I identify as "coherently male", someone whose self-image, body and gametes all cohere to a single sex, and rather reject terms foisted upon me by transgender people (whose self-description "transgender" I respect). —Ashley Y 23:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It's probably better to mark a POVy paragraph as such, include some of what the opposing camp has to say, and make sure that both sides of the issue are voiced. I rewrote the paragraph trying to do that. Feel free to edit it to include what you believe, but it seems that several users believe it belongs here. Also, if you do include an opposing opinion, try to include a reference. I took out the needs-to-cite-sources tag on this edit, but if there's anything in there about cisgender being offensive, that's probably not represented in my sources. Dave 01:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

If you wish to include "coherently" as a term cisgender is prefered over the reasoning for that preferance is that the antonym of "coherent" is "incoherent" which is derogatory due to it's psychological conotation. Further "coherent" is intrinsically innacurate, since "coherent" only applies to connections ad logos (from logic) not connections ad antiquitatum (from tradition) or ad populum (from popularity) which can be shown in clothing expectations. But that argument over word meanings is pure semantics.

Sourcing

I am adding the sourcing tag back in. right now, google search on "cisgender" turns up meager sources. Perhaps a google search on "cisgendered" turns up more sources, but I many of them are mirrors of wikipedia or blog sites. I really feel that the term cisgendered is a rare neologism. Please provide academic or other prominent sources for the usage of this word or I will AfD it. MPS 21:37, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I referenced Transgender Roadmap in my edit last night. That's a fairly prominent site among trans web resources. Dave 21:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The article is accurate and has sources. Even though it's not a commonly used word, I don't see any reason to delete it. Tom 16:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Trans-inclusive communities"

That doesn't mean like towns where trans people are fully accepted. It means communities like the LGBT community, the trans community, etc. Dave 19:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Changes

* you changed "biological" but the rebuttal would be that the dominant opinion in the psychological community is that gender identity disorder (GID) is indeed a congenital condition as is supported by evidence of subtle neuro-physical varriance coorelating with gender identified behaviors, and numerous personal accounts.

First of all, kindly, in the future, put your comments on the bottom of the page, and sign them with --~~~~. Putting them under a 2-year-old debate is not a good idea; in this case, nobody knows whom you are refering to with "you".

Secondly, you misunderstand that -- people are not opposed against "biological (wo)man" because they see GID necessarily as a psychological disorder (although there is neither proof that it is not nor would that in any way demean transpeople), but because the opposite of "biological" would be what? "Non-biological"? "Plastic"? "Artificial"? But obviously transpeople are just as biological as cispeople.

* you changed "genetically" but the rebuttal is that woman is not commonly used to denote an XX genotype, but rather a set of social behaviors which in common vernacular include other genotypes even if one disregards the XY genotype entirely. Further it can be argued that genetic etiology is one of the few theories on the etiology of GID that hasn't been counter indicated by some findings. It can thus be claimed that a transwoman is a woman and her womanhood was caused by her genetic makeup from the day she was born, which while semanticly unpopular, is seemingly accurate given the choosen set of group boundries.

A theory of a genetic origin has not been disprooved, but there is nothing to proove it, either. Hence that can not be claimed. And the reason "genetic" would not work anyway are those intersex people whose genetic make-up is neither XX nor XY. -- AlexR 09:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Has the mathpunny word association "ciswoman" is to "real woman" as "transwoman" is to "complex woman" spread at all or is that merely a regional quirk? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.140.15.143 (talk • contribs) 08:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

ciswoman and cisman

During the last few days, I have been made aware of the term cisgender and I have searched google for occurrences of the word. I find the word to be out in cyberspace used as a term to proceed man or woman. For example cisgendered man or cisgendered woman. At the same time, I also had the chance to look for the words cisman and ciswoman. I find that if they do exist at all, it is in signature lines or comments and not in conjunction with cisgender or cisgendered.

This has let me to believe that ciswoman and cisman (also a surname for men in India) although not figments of the imagination, are definitely neologisms. And the use of them lessens the validity of the term cisgender.

Bullshit, as you know. How could those words lessen the validity of the term? And who cares if a word is also a surename somewhere on this planet? Obviously, there is a need for words describing non-trans people, and if we have "transman" we may just as well have "transwoman".

It is my belief that these two words were added in the main article to justify a false point that ciswoman and woman are interchangeable. The same point was trying to be made for cisman and man. Since everything I have read indicates that this is not the case, but instead the correct usage should be cisgendered woman and cisgendered man, I would like to petition this group to have the incorrect information removed from this article. I understand that I am allowed to remove the line and be bold, but I refrain from doing so as to not start an edit war.

This is not incorrect information. It is merely your attempt to finally be allowed to imply that transwoman are not "women". Which why you also constantly lie about me being the one who considers "(wo)man" and "(cis)woman" to be interchangable, which they are obviouly not. You are the one who claims that one can describe non-trans women with plain woman, hence implying that transwomen are not women.

It has been told to me that cisman and ciswoman are the same as cisgender since they redirect to cisgender . I believe that this is totally wrong. cisman and ciswoman are not the same as cisgender but they redirect to cisgender without an explanation in "cisgender" to what they are or how they should be used. Since the only term that is vaguely out of the realm of neologisms is cisgender and it can still be considered to be nearly a neologism by the un-sourced speculation as to when it was named (1995). Adding ciswoman and cisman will lessen the claims that cisgendered is not a neologism and invalidates the work done here to gain some acceptance of the word since even a cursory search with a search engine shows that cisman and ciswoman do not exist in the cyberworld. And in the cyberworld, you have a link that defines cisgendered as an obscure term with no links that define ciswoman or cisman. Leaving them in wold require that a {{fact}} be placed in the article to have them sourced, since the existing sources do not cover there use. FemVoice 13:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly sticking to the truth here, are you? As usual. First, you whine that the words don't turn up, and then when they are added you whine some more. Not that it was necessary, because everybody who has read this article would be able to figure out those words.

Also, kindly stop throwing around the word "neologism" as if it were an argument -- new words are coined all the time, and as long as WP is not just the first place where it turns up, they are perfectly legit here. -- AlexR 16:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

ciswoman and cisman are not in references

• Quoting from questionable articles found in Reference section of article

• • Now, there are two main groups of individuals out there in gender land. On the one hand, you have the cisgendered, who align their sex and gender as described above in what can be considered a traditional way (male/man - female/woman).

• • cisgendered : an obscure term for non-trans people, meaning that someone's body and gender identity match.

• • I thought that they'd been out in the sun too long. Now, 10 months later, I find myself among the people who take pity in the cisgendered, who lead such boring lives and experience no significant events in life that shape one's character

Would someone please take the time to look for a reference to cisman and ciswoman, so that I can understand that they are not made up words.

For Example:

1. cis PREP ACC on/to this/near side of, short of; before, within (time);

1. trans PREP ACC across, over; beyond; on the other side; (only local relations);

So, if I coined a word 'cissex' - that would mean on the same side of or near to. So as a woman, I would like sex with ... on/ near side of ... other woman - so 'cissex' means I like other women!

I am being serious - mea magni interest - desine querellarum and give me a real definition that is sourced

LOGICALLY:

• Trans-sexual - is somethat has changed there sex. Fact!
• Cis - means .. on / to this / near side of, short of. Fact!

• • CONCLUSION: cis-sexual is someone that is on this side of sex or that has not changed their sex. That is not the definition that is presented in cisgender.

• • SINCE: cis-sexual links to cis-gender. cisgender means that you are of the same gender.

• • • CONCLUSION: If I am in a cis-sexual relationship, I like woman.

Please note: All of the references are questionable and the burden is on editor who made the edits to provide reputable, reliable, third-party sources

FemVoice 07:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

== "* Trans-sexual - is somethat has changed there sex. Fact!" Not a fact. Reread the article, and Transgender too if you must. 87.114.26.47 08:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

cis trans uses of word

Can you imagine hearing a near-side-of-man say that he was in a trans-sex relationship.

My friend said he was cis-sexual relationship. He thought for a moment and then said, "No, I mean... I am in a trans-sexual relationship" He is celibate now.

A cis-gender was walking down the street looking at the trans-gender and wanted to know if they would go out with them.

Oh, wait... ah...

A cis-gender was walking down the steet looking at the cis-gender and wanted to know if they would go out with them.

See what comes of mixing Latin with English.

FemVoice 07:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone talk about being in a *trans*gender relationship? What on earth are you trying to say? 87.114.26.47 08:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Evidence required

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability says "The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. "

- - - - - The terms ciswoman or cisman could be used analogously to transwoman and transman, though ciswoman and cisman are used less often than cisgender. - - - - -

Please cite usage of ciswoman and cisman

FemVoice 10:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I was reluctant at first, but after being unable to find any use of ciswoman on Google (except as somebody's username on a Web forum) and any usage of cisman that doesn't refer to someone with that last name, I agree. I don't even know of a print source that uses cisgender, so certainly I don't know of any that would mention the terms ciswoman and cisman. The article should not mention these terms without a citation of a source that actually uses them. Catamorphism 16:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Google must have been broke, I find it, and not just as a username. Obviously, the two of you, if there is indeed two of you, are on an escalating crusade. First, you complain that it is not in this article, and insult and vandalize in FV, then I put it in here, and then you descend on this article. Can't the two of you (if there is two of you) get on people's nerves elsewhere? Obviously, I will revert. Oh, and I won't bother answering your rants and lies (Google) any more, either. -- AlexR 09:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you link to a Web site that is available on Google that shows use of "cisman" and "ciswoman" and not just as usernames or as someone's last name? Also, please remember WP:CIVIL. Catamorphism 17:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

An acceptable reference would start with a http and have a definition. "Please cite a source to ensure that the content of articles is credible and can be checked by any reader or editor." As per Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources# Text that is, or is likely to be, disputed I am removing text. As an editor, and not a political activist I ask that you honor the intent of Misplaced Pages as outlined in Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources.

FemVoice 12:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)