Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rangeley (talk | contribs) at 21:46, 18 June 2006 (→I disagree with this conclusion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The issue of whether or not the Iraq War is part of the War on Terrorism has been a contentious issue, that often causes people to make knee jerk reactions based on their personal, political views. This is an attempt to escape the preconceived notions, and come to a logical, historical, and factual conclusion on the issue.

Introduction

This issue has been discussed both on article's, and user's talk pages over the past months, resulting in two polls being made with differing results, it is necessary that we address this issue in one location as it is easier to reach a consensus when conversations are able to be read in full.

What this is not addressing

• The name of the War on Terrorism. Currently, Misplaced Pages's article on the conflict is located at the War on Terrorism, and until it is not located there, this is the name of the conflict as far as other articles are concerned.
• Whether the Iraq War was justified. This is not an attempt to justify, or use Misplaced Pages to justify the War in Iraq. There is no agenda being pushed other than that of presenting facts to Wikipedians.
• Whether Saddam Hussein's regime had ties to terrorism/Al Qaeda, or whether he possessed WMD. The accuracy of pre-war intelligence is irrelevant to this issue as, again, it is not attempting to justify the war.

What this is addressing

• The recognition of the Iraq War as part of the War on Terrorism.

Why it is part of the War on Terrorism

• The United States and its allies began the military campaign known as the War on Terrorism, a campaign whose goal is "ending international terrorism by stopping those groups identified by the U.S. as terrorist groups and ending state sponsorship of terrorism."
• Saddam Hussein's regime was considered a "state sponsor of terrorism" by the United States government.
• The United States and its allies began the Iraq War as a stated part of the War on Terrorism, both pre-war, and since it has begun.

Vote

I agree with this conclusion

1. I agree that it is definately part of the campaign, whether or not it was the best way to fight the war is irrelevant. This was the way chosen, and we must recognize this as an encyclopedia. Rangeley 14:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
2. I also agree its part of the War on Terror. I think people need to just look at the evidence, and not form opinions on right and wrong regarding the issue. We are not here to justify anyones actions. --zero faults 15:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
3. Agreed. Regardless of opinion on the justification. Rmt2m 16:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
4. I agree. It is part of the War on Terror regardless of one's opinion on its current and/or potential success. It is also part of the War on Terror independently of a user's views on the United States and its criteria for how Terrorism is defined. Haizum 18:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
5. I think it is obvious that the US government sees (or at least saw/presented) the invasion of Iraq and the continuing presence there as part of its War on Terror. However, in my opnion, the term "War on Terror" is just a tag applied to various wars, which might be fought for very different reasons and with different means, very much like the "global stuggle against communism" of R. Reagan.. So I would propose including a text along the lines of "the US government sees the invasion of Iraq as part of its global "War on Terrorism".KarlXII 19:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Comment: How is this statement in support of the above conclusion? If you want to include the disclaimer "the US government sees", then your vote should obviously be "disagree". Rkrichbaum 20:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

6. I believe that many people don't want to allow the Iraq war to be part of the WOT because they believe that the true purpose behind the conflict was money, oil, power, etc. However, that is conjecture and can never be proven, only debated. Such things have no place in an encyclopedia. Historical fact does not necessarily mean the true purpose and intent in an instigator's mind, but rather what is publicly visible. Rexmorgan 19:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
7. Agreed. It has always been classified as part of the war on terrorism--Looper5920 20:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
8. Yes. I think people are missing the most important part of the quote. "ending international terrorism by stopping those groups identified by the U.S. as terrorist groups and ending state sponsorship of terrorism." It doesn't matter at all what actual connections exist. If tommorow Bush declared War on Denny's and identified them as having ties to terrorist groups, the article on War on Denny's would warrant a subsection of the War on Terror. Basically, the War on Terrorism article and it's content is not defined by whether or not the war is against terrorist forces but whether or not the war is against forces identified by the US as terrorist forces (or forces with ties to terrorists). Staxringold _talk 21:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Neutral / Abstain

1. The beginning section goes out of its way to absolve the discussion of any responsibility for coming to grips with the concept of the "War on Terror" itself, and its flawed definition. Unfortunately, this is required for discussion to proceed sensibly. The concept of a war on an emotion being meaningless, and the "War on Terror" not yet having been clearly defined, there's no way to even determine any sensible guidelines for which conflicts should be placed within the category and which should not. I say not clearly defined because the "War on Terror" lacks clearly defined enemies, and lacks clearly defined goals which, if met, would bring an end to the conflict. Without these basic requirements, it is the eternal war against whoever we don't like this week. Respectfully, I feel this is a waste of time. If you're going to use the U.S. government's definition of what the term "War on Terror" means, you have no choice but to include the Iraq War in it by default, because the "War on Terror" as it currently stands has no clearly defined boundaries or limits. There's no way to say that any American conflict or military action is not part of it. Kasreyn 20:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Exactly the reason why the consensus (I would call an overwhelming numerical vote against inclusion consensus) was against including Iraq. WOT as advocated by Bush can indeed be apllied to any conflict. Nomen Nescio 21:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   I do not remember a vote on this. I remember a poll asking people if it should be in the infobox specifically. Some editors felt it was part, but since it was controversial, it should be left out of the infobox. This is not about the specifics of the infobox, this is addressing the larger issue of the general classification of the term and this war. --zero faults 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   There is a way to say that something is not part of it. Was it begun to fight terrorism or a sponsor of terror? If not, then it is not part of the War on Terror. It is always difficult to set limits on something that is ongoing. For instance, how would they have set limits on defining World War Two when it was going on? At first, it would have been defined as a conflict between Poland/France/England and Germany. But as years went by, the conflict gradually became quite different. If you were to tell a Pole in 1939 that the war that begins there would lead to 2 nuclear bombs being dropped on Japan, he would probably be quite skeptical of such a thing, and not just because nuclear weapons hadnt been invented. Where we are in this conflict, we cannot see the future of it. Maybe another war will start, maybe not. We are in no place to predict, and Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. Where the War on Terrorism will go tomorrow is not the issue, it is where it has gone. Currently it is defined as a campaign against "terrorists and state sponsors of terror," for which the war in Afghanistan and Iraq are most certainly part. This is all we can deal with, as this is all we know today.

   And Nescio, 15-9 is not even an overwhelming numerical majority, let alone a consensus. Rangeley 21:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this conclusion

1. On the grounds that you cannot rehash a debate in which consensus clearly was against inclusion (see talk pages of Iraq war and the template WOT). Having this kind of "poll" again and again and again and again and again and again and again, untill the result is the one you want is not encyclopedic. Just accept that consensus is against including Iraq. Since this is the millionth "poll" I object to repeating this procedure and reject this one, it should be stopped immediately. Nomen Nescio 19:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   I would point you to the opening paragraph, and the introduction which outline the underlying problems with the two previous polls (which were simultaneously carried out in two seperate articles). A numerical majority is not the definition of a consensus, you are welcome to provide a counter argument for the one put forth in this article. This would be more constructive than voting against this on the basis that it has been talked about before. Rangeley 19:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Please define consensus. Nomen Nescio 21:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   It is an agreement that can be reached on this issue. I will not agree to an argument put forth that I can easilly knock down, and I ask noone else to. The purpose of this is to either come to an agreement about the argument put forward here, or to find a convincing argument against this. I have backed down on other issues at Misplaced Pages when I found myself to be wrong, because frankly I dont like making a fool of myself, consider it to be cutting and running if you will. I would not be debating here if I felt I was wrong, because this could hurt my future attempts to acheive anything if I debated idiotically a clearly incorrect point. When an argument arises which sufficiently shows me to be wrong, for which I cant respond, I will back down and agree with you. This is all I can ask of anyone, when they see that their argument can no longer stand, they too would back down. If you are not at this point, please present an argument. When either side gets to this point, this is a consensus. Rangeley 21:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

2. The "war on terror" is not a military campaign, but an "ideological struggle" (Bush) according to the reference given above (1). That the Iraq invasion constitutes part of this "ideological struggle" clearly is the partisan view of the the Republican party, or its leaders - this follows from other references given above (Financial Times, Houston Chronicle). The opposition within the US disagrees. Many critics have characterized the label "war on terror" as a propaganda term. As such, using it unquestioningly is part of a war of semantics. Some prominent critics, including Zbigniev Brzezinski, have stated that it even constitutes a war ON semantics, given that it is impossible to wage war on military tactics. To label the Iraq invasion and occupation on Misplaced Pages as part of the "war on terror" would therefore obviously constitute a partisan statement, which is inappropriate without a disclaimer and the citation of opposing views. This has probably been pointed out many times before, but I only arrived here recently and thought I should add my 2 cents. Rkrichbaum 20:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   It's obviously both a military campaign and an ideological struggle. Haizum 20:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Well, no, it is obviously something whose very empirical existence outside of semantics is questioned by notable critics. Rkrichbaum 20:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   I would like to note that none of what you said is relevant to the question at hand, and instead are arguments against things this is not attempting to address, such as the name of the conflict. Recognizing this as part of a larger conflict is no more a partisan stance than recognizing previous wars or battles as part of a wider conflict. It is no more a justification of the Iraq War than calling the Vietnam War part of the Cold War was a justification of that. Rangeley 20:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   I realize quite well your attempt to limit the discussion to the Republican view of US policies which they describe as a "war on terror". The Iraq invasion may well become part of a wider conflict, but this remains to be seen. The Vietnam war was not part of the "Cold War" since by its very definition the term "Cold War" does not include military campaigns. Rkrichbaum 20:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Template:Agf Haizum 20:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Thanks for the well meant advice. I certainly always assume good faith and do not even need Wiki policies for that. I also never pretend to assume something when it doesn't seem rational to do so. Rkrichbaum 20:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Well you just said that another user is attempting to "limit the discussion to the Republican view," which is assuming a POV and is therefore not AGF, hence the template. Haizum 20:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Rkrichbaum, a slight problem with this is that the Vietnam War was part of the Cold War, as stated on both articles. The Cold War involved no direct conflicts between the two superpowers, but instead existed in the form of "an arms race involving nuclear and conventional weapons, networks of military alliances, economic warfare and trade embargos, propaganda, espionage and proxy wars, especially those involving superpower support for opposing sides within civil wars." Thus, The Vietnam War is inherently part of the conflict. Likewise, the Iraq War fits into the definition of the War on Terrorism stated in its respective article, whose stated goal is "ending international terrorism by stopping those groups identified as terrorist groups, and ending state sponsorship of terrorism." Rangeley 20:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   The articles do not state that the Vietnam war was "part of the Cold War". I'm sure nobody will reject the statement that according to the present US administration, the Iraq invasion is seen as part of the so-called war on terror. What you seem to be asking is for everyone to accept that this Republican view has to be stated as fact in a Wiki article. Please correct me if this perception is wrong. Rkrichbaum 21:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Its in the info box for Vietnam War ... I believe its also in the template for Cold War. --zero faults 21:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Its also mentioned 9 times, once being casus belli, and a 10th time in the template on the bottom for Cold War. --zero faults 21:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   What I am asking for is for people to put aside their personal politics and look at the facts. This was stated above. Rangeley 21:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

3. Should be "The Iraq War is advanced by the Bush Administration as part of the War on Terrorism", not "The Iraq War is part of the War on Terrorism". The former is indisputable while the latter is highly debatable. --kizzle 20:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   Not really. ⊢ Haizum 20:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

   If its highly debatable, what is the rebuttal to this? Rangeley 20:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Could you please direct me to where the discussion on this was already made. I thought it was rather obvious that the US government labelled its invasion of Iraq as part of its War on Terror. Wasn't that why they were trying so hard to find links between S. Hussein and Al Qaida? That it was a stupid move, is a whole diffirent issue. Also, it should be pointed out that while NATO was involved in the War on Terror in Afghanistan, it was not in Iraq.KarlXII 19:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps not everyone interested was aware that polls were occurring; I certainly wasn't. Haizum 19:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Nomen Nescio, you need to disagree with the content, not attack the existence of the poll itself. Haizum 19:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This poll was created because people misunderstood the basis of the older one. They felt that voting for the poll would be justifying the invasion. That is why its laid out here like this, in a concise matter that explains no justifications are being made, simply asking if its part of it or not. --zero faults 19:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this is attempting to cut through politics and hit the issue at its heart, and is laid out in a matter that it is absolutely clear what it is addressing. This was a problem last time, with many mistaking it for a "Do you support the war?" or "Was it justified?" poll. This problem does not exist here because it is explicitly stated otherwise. Anyone who disagrees with the argument put forth is more than welcome to put forward another argument that proves it incorrect, but as this has not happened throughout the entire duration of the discussion so far, it would be improper of us to not raise the issue again. A consensus must be backed logically, not merely numerically. Rangeley 19:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see a solution that indicates both that it is a part of the War on Terror, but also indicates that this is a term used by the Bush Administration. I feel that using quotes, ex: Part of the "War on Terror", would be appropriate. KevinPuj 20:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason we use the name "War on Terrorism" is not because the US Government has labeled it such, but instead because that is where the article on the conflict is located at Misplaced Pages. This is also something that this is not addressing. This is addressing whether the Iraq War is part of the conflict, not the name or name conventions that should be applied to the conflict. Rangeley 20:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)