Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Born2cycle (talk | contribs) at 05:43, 1 July 2014 (→What should decide titles?: fix). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the English Misplaced Pages article titles policy and Manual of Style, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

On 30 January 2010, it was proposed that this page be moved from Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions to Misplaced Pages:Article titles. The result of the discussion was moved.

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Archives by topic: Common names 1, 2, 3 Naming conflict 1, 2 Precision and accuracy

This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

WP:TITLECHANGES

Reading this section of the policy, it seems like the first sentence is actually talking about unilateral/WP:BOLD pagemoves. If it were talking about all page moves, even requested moves, then why on earth would it recommend filing a requested move in the next paragraph?

In addition, the linked arbitration case (in the footnotes) is explicitly talking about how it's necessary to find consensus through discussion before making big changes. That paragraph was not put in there to avoid any controversial move; it was to stop "bold" controversial moves. Its meaning is not "don't request a controversial move", it means "discuss controversial moves".

In fact, even two years ago, this section read: "Editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged." (Emphasis mine, of course.) Somehow, the point of the section got adjusted, and now people get the impression that changing titles, even after a discussion intended to help our articles follow our naming criteria, is strongly discouraged (when in practice of course it isn't - have you seen WP:RM?). When our policies are unclear or don't communicate the facts on the ground, we rewrite them; I would suggest that this section of WP:AT needs to be rewritten. Red Slash 21:56, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I have seen WP:RM... the community routinely rejects changing one controversial title for another controversial title at RM. That tells me that the community really does discourage changing one controversial title for another controversial title. The goal is to try to find a title that isn't controversial. Granted, that isn't always possible, but that is the goal never the less. Blueboar (talk) 01:01, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

The new change, not by me, is much better. Red Slash 04:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

% in article titles

Hi. Is there any way a percent sign (%) can be used in an article title? I was about to create an article, which has the sign in its proper name. --Soman (talk) 14:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

See a page I just created for testing with % in the title: Search %. What is the problem you faced? What is the name of the article you tried to creeate? Yiba (talk | contribs) 11:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• The information you are looking for can be found at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (technical restrictions)#Percent and encoded characters. Steel1943 (talk) 12:00, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

When COMMONNAME depends on country, culture, or demography

In an effort to split an article, I am faced with the problem of which of the two articles after the split should be given the old well-known article title, where both of the new subjects could claim to have COMMONNAME and PRIMARY TOPIC arguments for the title depending on the demography group the reader and/or the editor belong, and would like to invite comments from wider editor-base on how to handle this article naming issue. Yiba (talk | contribs) 07:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

What's the article? Red Slash 07:04, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The long entry needed to be split into two in accordance to Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Statement should be neutral and brief, and your response was way too fast for me. Could you please delete this section? Yiba (talk | contribs) 07:12, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

]

RfC: When COMMONNAME depends on country, culture, or demography

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Misplaced Pages style and naming Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

In an effort to split an article, I am faced with the problem of which of the two articles after the split should be given the old well-known article title, where both of the new subjects could claim to have COMMONNAME and PRIMARY TOPIC arguments for the title depending on the demography group the reader and/or the editor belong, and would like to invite comments from wider editor-base on how to handle this article naming issue. Yiba (talk | contribs) 07:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Example

The case is Porsche, where the name is predominantly a brand of cars and the car maker, Porsche AG, for one demography group who are not interested in investments; and is predominantly the name of the parent company, Porsche SE, which controls many car makers such as Bentley, Bugatti, Audi, Volkswagen, Ducati, Lamborghini and Porsche for the other demography group who are more likely kept abreast of developments in economy and capital markets. The latter view considers the name on the stock of the parent company traded on public exchanges, and its roles in the German and world economy, to have significance reaching a wider Misplaced Pages reader base, but the other (mostly younger) group tend to place a higher significance on the brand of cars and its manufacturer because it is the way the name "Porsche" is used by the group (as well as by reliable publications catering to car afficionados).

Problem

With the well known skew in Misplaced Pages editor demography towards young males in mind, and assuming the two views each having reliable sources on the respective usage, how should we handle the question of which article (on the parent company Porsche SE, or the car manufacturing subsidiary Porsche AG) to be given the representative "Porsche" as the title?

Currently, the article is not split between the parent and the subsidiary, but there is a general consensus that a split into two articles would be preferable if this and other problems can be resolved.

(The problem is more complicated in this example than on most car companies because Porsche AG no longer is a direct subsidiary of Porsche SE, but has become a subsidiary of Volkswagen AG, to which Porsche SE is the majority owner. Further, Porsche SE was born by renaming the old Porsche AG, and then the car manufacturing operation was spun off to form the new Porsche AG, so the parent holding company is the legal successor of the Porsche history in the past (which might give the primary topic status to the parent on the basis of long-term significance). In many countries, the parent company does not have a local presence due to the limited availability of EDR and GDR outside of London, Frankfurt, Luxembourg and New York stock exchanges, so the subsidiary is left in the country to be the only bearer of the name Porsche, except in international or foreign context. The parent currently has non-car-making subsidiaries that are likely to attract not insignificant number of Wiki readers on the products (e.g. sunglasses, bags, etc.) and services (e.g. technology consulting) outside of the new Porsche AG, who are likely to look up 'Porsche' on Misplaced Pages.)

Issue

This seems to be a COMMONNAME issue, not in the sense that subject X is called A or B, but in the sense that the name A is normally used to mean subject X or Y depending on what country, culture, or demography you belong within the English speaking population. The word 'Porsche' normally means different things to a stock broker or a coupon clipper in London, and for a student in Sydney.

In a way, this is because the culture and the common knowledge are not shared by the countries, generations and demography groups using the same English language. The difference cannot be resolved by the best efforts in consensus building, because the different views are valid for each group and a consensus cannot merge or unify the groups, and an amicable middle ground cannot be found because the assignment of 'Porsche' title cannot be split or weighted between the two articles. I would suspect similar issues exist between male and female, the rich and the poor, well-educated and not-so-well-educated, and between other demography groups. As none of these demography groups cannot be ignored as the Misplaced Pages reader base, this is not a target audience issue. May be the question of "When COMMONNAME varies according to the subject domain categorization (i.e. stand point of the Wikiproject for each domain)" should be added to this issue for those subjects and article titles that belong in two or more subject domains (e.g. Companies and Automobiles for the 'Porsche' example), and so I consider this issue to have a very wide scope, which might have caused many controversies in the past.

As the problem has two legitimate points of view, I would normally apply WP:NPOV and the principle of "Misplaced Pages tries to describe the dispute, not engage in it.", but a creation of problem/issue description page would not solve the problem, and the concept of due weight cannot be applied because ] can't direct to Porsche SE article XX% of the time, and direct to Porsche AG article YY% of the time, which might be technically possible with a Round-robin DNS style mechanism for the searches and name resolutions within Misplaced Pages.

Solutions

Giving the representative ] title to one or the other of the two subjects may violate the principle of WP:NPOV either way, because it gives the benefit of being easier found in a search to one article at the undue expense of the other, despite both subjects having a valid COMMONNAME/PRIMARYTOPIC argument for the article title with supporting and not insignificant population with their own view point. If, only if, WP:NPOV(as a non-negotiable policy) must be adhered to no matter what cost, then the Round-robin mechanism idea that directs ] to one or the other of the articles with a pre-set probability ratio (e.g. 50:50, 80:20, etc.) may gain some validity with a small but fundamental alteration to the way this online encyclopaedia functions (of course with a hatnote on the result page to call attention to, and a direct link to, the other article).

In deciding "Subject X is called A or B", search engine test is sometimes used. However, this would not result in fair outcomes in this "Name A means X or Y" example, because the usage that equates 'Porsche' with the parent company is under the natural requirement on securities, economics, and business publications to qualify the name more carefully (adding 'SE' after 'Porsche' to avoid confusion) than on car magazines, so is naturally penalized in the statistics "How often the word 'Porsche' is meant for the parent, and for the subsidiary". This is a systemic bias in the test. Moreover, the patterns cannot be established for sufficiently long period because the parent was renamed and the subsidiary was established only recently in 2007.

Giving the ] title to a disambiguation page is another, a bit messy, solution I came up so far, but this solution may trigger waves of protests from Wikiprojects with established and conflicting conventions to such a practice (e.g. Wikiproject:Companies and Wikiproject:Automobiles in opposing directions, may be). In this case, the Precision criterion in WP:NAMINGCRITERIA may be used not to give the 'Porsche' title to either of the two articles, against which the Projects might use the Consistency criterion, or primary topic, as the basis for opposing the action.

I would like to receive comments and especially different ideas from those editors who, preferably, do not belong in the Companies, Automobiles, Brands, Germany, or other related WikiProjects to the example. Similar cases in the past and the ways they were resolved would be of interest if the solution seems reasonable. Those comments pushing for one of the two views in the example without grasping the underlying issue are NOT invited. Yiba (talk | contribs) 07:09, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

I think this is a non-issue. There are really only three scenarios:

• There is no primary meaning among the general readership in which case a dab page and dab extensions.
• There is a primary meaning among the general readership in which case the primary meaning can have a hatnote to a dab-page.
• There are several primary meanings of a name known to to different unrelated groups -- usually these go under one of two things: either first created and a hatnote to a dab-page; or a dab-page with two or more dabbed articles. The decision on this can often come down to how many links exist for first article and can anyone be bothered to change the articles from whence the links come. Occasionally as with football there is a whole article to explain the difference to those who do not know about the other meanings (in the case of football it seems to be there chiefly to educate and slow down new impassioned editors).

In the case of Porsche, the general readership know about the car Porsche and the hypothetical expert group who deal in share in the companies probably own one(!) and so the least surprise for most readers would be to place the car brand at Porsche as the primary meaning, and a hatenote for the more specialised meanings.

There is a more difficult problem which is the use of marketing names which adopts other names and then popularise them (for example the Google Chrome browser). Judging when usage of a name has changed to mean something else can be tricky, both with the adoption of a new meaning and with a term possibly reverting to its old meaning or to anther new meaning. -- PBS (talk) 12:33, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the comment, PBS. I think what you described basically is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The way you described may even be better (easier to apply in real cases) than the first paragraph in the guideline. The first two cases in your description use the concept of 'general readership', which is the main issue we are discussing here. when the 'readership' can't be lumped together in one 'general' category, this issue becomes real. The third case may apply on Porsche, but the case is more like "There are two primary meanings of a name, one each for two reader groups" which can't be limited to Porsche example. I feel "The decision on this" has inherent NPOV issue to it, except in giving the representative title to a dab-page, because the decision favors one of the two valid points of view at the expense of the other. All the links to the two subjects (parent and subsidiary) are to ] because the split of the article into two has not yet happened. The concept of "the least surprise" depends on the reader group because the 'normal', 'primary' or 'not-surprising' meaning of a word depends on the group you belong. It is very difficult for a 20 or 30 year-old to place him/herself in the 50-year-olds' shoes (the reverse is easier because he/she once was there), but you might be surprised by the way your grandma uses a word matter-of-factly contrary to the way you would use the same word. I agree that evolving meaning of a name to be very tricky. In a way, when a company changes its name, the name changes its meaning. Yiba (talk | contribs) 02:13, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I personally won't take this as an NPOV issue, but rather the simple issue of: to a reasonable English speaker, what is the primary meaning of the term Porsche? To me, it is Porsche the car marque, rather than any particular corporation that at any point manufactures it. For example, when people say, "a Porsche factory," how likely would people mean:

1. 1. A factory that makes Porsche-branded cars, regardless of ownership?
   2. A factory owned by (current or legacy) Porsche AG, which makes Porsche-branded cars?
   3. A factory owned by Porsche SE, which may or may not make Porsche-branded cars?

I would say the likelihood decreases in the above order, and the likelihood (1) would be much larger than (2). --Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 20:38, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the comment, Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori. The concept of reasonable person relies on the definition of the group the jury represents (or the subject of the applicable law), like all the people in the country, the area under jurisdiction, or people in a society/organization, to determine how a "reasonable representative member" of that particular group would behave or judge. When the concept is expanded to "reasonable English speaker", it needs to encompass many countries, cultures, and legal systems that are diverse in places like India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Germany, HongKong, Israel and New Zealand (see the link). I would think making a decision only according to what the term means to me might have a POV pushing side to it. "A Porsche factory" may not be a good example because "a Porsche watch", by the same token, would normally mean the product of Porsche Design, a Porsche SE subsidiary. WikiProject Brands might favor a "marque" vs. "corporation" argument (that might argue the opposite of your argument because the Porsche Brand may mean more than "car marque" to them), which might contradict what WikiProject Automobiles may want to see. Yiba (talk | contribs) 04:54, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any person who would more likely associate "Porsche" with Porsche SE than cars of the Porsche marque. Even there may be people who may associate "Porsche" equally with Porsche SE and Porsche marque, I don't think for those people, applying COMMONNAME will cause an NPOV issue. Given the situation, I would prefer Yiba provide evidence of an actual dispute over this, rather than one that sounds hypothetical to me.

Your Porsche vs Porsche Design argument is inadequate. Plainly "Porsche" (not "Porsche cars" nor "Porsche watches") predominantly refers to car-related topics. While dablinks to Porsche Design would be appropriate, that does not invalidate my argument.--Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 05:50, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's fairly clear that the car brand is the primary topic here. To claim this is a viewpoint held primarily by young males is pushing at the realms of reality. The "other demography group who are more likely kept abreast of developments in economy and capital markets" is minuscule in comparison to the general population (I speak as someone who worked in the City of London), and it would be extremely WP:UNDUE to give the holding company equal importance when considering disambiguation. Number 57 11:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
• I agree with others commenting here that it is pretty obvious that the primary topic is the brand of cars (and this regardless of age). The parent holding company (as holding company rather than the manufacturer of the brand name autos) is really a specialized use that is not in common currency except in special contexts. older ≠ wiser 12:02, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
• @Yiba: you wrote above "The third case may apply on Porsche", as Number 57 says, your are talking about a minuscule group. Beside dealers tend to be young men and they too would mean the car unless qualified in some way: if you were to walk in to a City of London pub of a Friday night, and if you over heard the word Porshe few if any of the conversations would be about the company. The third case does not apply. -- PBS (talk) 12:15, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you all for the comments. Keeping in mind the list is incomplete, let me try to measure how minuscule the group may be from the figures in the List of countries by English-speaking population:

India 125Million, Pakistan 99, Nigeria 79, Bangladesh 29, Egypt 28, Total 360Million English speakers.

Out of this total, let's assume 50% is female, 20% to be classified as 'old', and 50% don't know about Porsche cars and potentially likely to lookup 'Porsche' when she sees the word.

360x0.5x0.2x0.5=18Million (Old ladies in just the five countries who doesn't know about Porsche cars. No offense intended to people in these countries. Porsche car production before 1965 was very small, and exports to these countries were extremely limited.)

This is more than, or about equal to, the male and female English speakers in New Zealand (3.7), Switzerland (4.7), Denmark (4.8), and Singapore (4.8) combined, or about 63% of English speakers in Canada. This figure excludes 1. stock broker in London, 2. well-to-do retiree in London, 3. those older people who don't know much about cars but reads economy/business articles(might have to qualify this group to be outside of the five countries). So please keep in mind this 18Million figure is not the size of the group, instead, it's a small part of the group just used as an example to evaluate the 'miniscule' description. In developed countries, population is generally declining in the last decade or two, so the percentage of retirees in the population is quite large. The specialized vs. primary usage argument is quite different in nature, and the London pub argument is interesting, I might try to address these later. Yiba (talk | contribs) 06:41, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

My pub comment is not the way Misplaced Pages editors ascertain the weight behind a particular usage, instead it is done it by surveying usage in reliable English language sources on the assumption that their usage reflects what a person who knows about the subject but is not an expert on the subject will look for. I have not started to do a survey (I leave that to those interested), but I would be very surprised if Porsche the car marque was not the dominant meaning for Porsche. If your hypothetical old woman on the back of a Bangladeshi bus becomes interested in the word Porsche, not ever having heard of it before, she is likely to do so from reading about it/hearing about it in some other source (even if it is two young men in the seats in front of her on the hypothetical bus), the chances are that source will be the common usage. It is gonig to be relatively rare event that she is looking up (on her iphone ;-O) the name of a female friend (and so looking for a different meaning). -- PBS (talk) 09:39, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

The point I made in my first comment is that in general the policy works as described. If you think that the wording of the policy needs an amendment we can discuss that, but lets drop the Porsche example because it is not a useful example (as you have been told by several other editors). -- PBS (talk) 09:39, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment, PBS. This is closely related to specialized vs. primary, and I generally agree with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, so let's talk about it a bit further. The first "major aspects" in the guideline that measures if there is a primary topic says "the topic sought when a reader searches for that term" and this "reader" is en.wikipedia reader in general (tell me if you disagree on this or other parts of this comment). The second major aspect is long-term significance, which I pointed out originally above to belong (or likely to belong because it is the legal lineage) to the parent that changed the old Porsche AG name to Porsche SE. (The subsidiary, the new Porsche AG, was created anew in 2007.) Now this opens up another question if we will be splitting the Porsche article to the parent and "Porsche cars", "Porsche brand" or the new "Porsche AG" subsidiary, but the general consensus seems to be to split between the parent and the subsidiary.

Going back to the first major aspect, I don't think it is reasonable to argue the searches on the article describing the new subsidiary company will be "more likely than all the other topics combined" including the parent (attracting people interested in business, economy, law, international affairs, Volkswagen, Audi, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ducati, Bentley, celebrities, sunglasses, watches, bags, etc.) Ferdinand Porsche (attracting people interested in engineering, history, Porsche cars lineage, etc.) and others on Porsche (disambiguation). I tried to illustrate the demography group that is likely don't know about Porsche cars within en.wiki readers to be not insignificant above. "A person who knows about the subject but is not an expert on the subject" may describe an average wiki editor, but does not describe the demography group, or reader-base. The man on the Clapham omnibus is a narrower definition of Reasonable person that assumes the person to be English, so it would not apply to an old lady who may have a modest life savings or inheritance in Bangladesh, who might have recently received an investment recommendation.

I see that Porsche cars to be the primary use of the term by most of en.wiki editors, and it might be natural that the majority of comments here reflect that. But it is the readers, who may not be as well-educated on the average, whose first language may not even be English, who are older on the average, who may not be as poor (or, not interested in world economy) as you might think, who decides PRIMARYTOPIC. Yiba (talk | contribs) 15:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

You're speaking of a hypothetical readership. I see not a shred of credible evidence that such readers of wikipedia exist in any significant number or that there is any reason editors need to contort common sense to address such hypotheticals. older ≠ wiser 16:17, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment, older ≠ wiser. I love your name. "English Misplaced Pages Reader", "general readership" and simply "readers" in this discussion are hypothetical concepts. So yes, I am speaking of hypothetical readership, and yes, I cannot give you an evidence that there are potentially 100 Million en.wiki readers who don't know what a Porsche car is, but nobody can give me the evidence that there aren't. So we discuss these concepts in hypothetical terms, using reasonable conditions and assumptions, after accepting the lack of concrete evidence. There may be a rather wide range of "What are expected of Misplaced Pages editors" in terms of his/her abilities, depending on the case and the area of activity, but the ability to place yourself in readers' point of view is placed high on my list (so this is just my opinion). We need to set our own common sense aside, and think about what kind of people (with what kind of common sense) the readers may be, when we consider things like WP:PRIMARYTOPIC which is supposed to be determined by the readers. I think the 100 million figure (when people outside of the five countries, males and those outside of the age bracket are included) is well within a reasonable estimate, but I am not using that figure because it is difficult for me to place it in a reasonable, convincing framework. Yiba (talk | contribs) 06:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I decided to test the theory that women would be less likely to identify "Porsche" as the kind of car by doing a Google Books search for recent books by authors with distinctly female names (or with female-sounding names whose sex could be confirmed by further searching). Most examples that I found fit the following pattern:

• Linda Gong Austin, Mountain Bike! Northern California (2013), p. 435: "They graced the trails with names that were colorful as well as expressive: Faceplant, Nosebreak, Pipeline, Whoops!, Porsche 914 (so named for an abandoned Porsche hidden here)..."
• Alison Mackey, ‎Susan M. Gass, Research Methods in Second Language Acquisition (2011), p. 126: "This illustration depicts the following sequence of events for each trial: (1) a semantically related auditory distracter car (the picture's basic-level name) is presented 200 ms before the picture, (2) the target picture (Porsche) is presented for 800 ms, and (3) the participant names the picture (i.e., says Porsche) as quickly as possible". Note, the book includes a drawing of a Porsche.
• Margaret Way, Australia's Maverick Millionaire (2011), p. 72: "It was Josh's powerful Porsche. He was signalling her to pull off the road. Right or wrong, she had no intention of obeying that signal. The Porsche swept past her, then pulled in dead ahead".
• Kristen Mylonas, Guinevere's Walk of Life (2011), p. 13: "Then they walked downstairs the butler opened the door and the limo driver brought Bryan's silver two door Porsche around from the back from one of the garages".

I also saw two instances where female authors referenced characters named "Porsche" and one where a female author had written on the company, Porsche, acquiring other companies. However, it is clear that the substantial majority of female authors referring to "Porsche" are aware of (and writing about) the car. bd2412 T 18:51, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the comment, bd2412. I appreciate your effort in assembling the examples. It takes time to prepare such a list, and I take it to be a reflection of your sincere attitude towards this discussion. However, "Female book writers in developed countries" do not even overlap with the "old ladies in the five countries" group I used in deriving the 18 Million figure, so I cannot see how the examples invalidate or discredit the calculation, or my argument. I didn't even want to apply the 50% 'women' reduction factor in the calculation for the fear of being called a sexist which I am not, so I don't mind your considering the figure to be 36 Million instead (old English speaking 'people' in the five countries, which is more than the entire English speaking population in Canada or Australia) in your mind if you don't like the women part of the calculation. I used the reduction factor just to make the argument conservative and more acceptable. Yiba (talk | contribs) 15:54, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is available in over a hundred languages, and many people who speak English also speak another language, which might be their preferred language for looking up encyclopedia articles. Can you provide some evidence with respect to how many of these "English speaking" people would use English Misplaced Pages as opposed to some other language? Moreover, can you provide some evidence with respect to what proportion of English-speaking people in actually use Misplaced Pages at all, by country? It would not make sense to tailor our content to non-readers. bd2412 T 16:18, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: First, I have to question whether the idea of a split into two separate articles is really the best way to proceed. However,if that is indeed the consensus... then I think the need for disambiguation outweighs the desire to use the COMMONNAME. I agree that BOTH Porsche AG and Porsche SE have equally valid claims on the un-adorned name "Porsche"... so, my call is that neither of them should get it. Here is my solution... give the unadorned title to the disambiguation page... ie:

current DAB page Porsche (disambiguation) --> Porsche

current article Porsche --> Porsche AG and Porsche SE

Does that resolve the dilemma? Blueboar (talk) 21:36, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the comment, Blueboar. It seems I am the only one who has been pointing out the problems in the split on the talk page on Porsche. I agree with your comment and appreciate your intelligence. I wish if you could re-evaluate the part with WP:NAMINGCRITERIA in the above Solutions section and give me further advice. I just can't believe this is the first case with two or more valid COMMONNAME arguments on a term, and wished someone to come up with a better solution. Yiba (talk | contribs) 15:54, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

There is an appropriate place to request title changes for specific articles. bd2412 T 16:19, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Long and convoluted disambiguation

I ran into the article Sebastián Fernández (footballer born 1989), and didn't really find any guidance on making a more natural disambiguation. The problem is that Sebastián Fernández - the main topic - is also a footballer from Uruguay - exactly the qualities that would normally disambiguate. Is this the best policy should do, should we have some more policy to handle this kind of situation, or should we just do this ad hoc? VanIsaac_WS 20:48, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Has to be done ad hoc, but WP Football has well developed guidelines since so many footballers need disambiguating from other footballers - suggest drop by the project page. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you kindly. VanIsaac_WS 04:12, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

"Winston Churchill not Churchill"

I recall that someone (Blueboar was it??) suggested last year balancing our "absolute shortest is always best" WP:COMMONNAME examples with some examples going the other way. What happened to that? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

What should decide titles?

What should determine titles? Policy like WP:CRITERIA and WP:DIFFCAPS?

Or opinions about which title better "communicates what the article is about" or "is more helpful" to readers?

Weigh in here: Talk:All_the_Best!#Requested_moves.

--В²C ☎ 05:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment