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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wolfman (talk | contribs) at 02:09, 28 September 2004 (→Personal attacks on Sherwood do not belong in Stolen Honor article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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additional material deleted

I removed this material just now with edit summary which explains reason for removal: "remove additional sherwood personal material - please repost this on sherwood personal article - Stolen Honor is article is not about Sherwood, per se but other article is". ] 17:34, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While Sherwood shared in a group Pulitzer for investigation of a fund-raising scandal involving a Vatican cover-up, the neutrality of his reportage has been questioned. In 1992 the PBS program Frontline examined Sherwood's book Inquisition, which claimed to be an independent investigation of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. During that investigation, a letter surfaced in which James Gavin, an aide to Reverend Moon, stated that he had reviewed the book before publication, and suggested revisions that Sherwood had promised he would incorporate before the final manuscript went to the publisher. Sherwood had previously worked for the Washington Times, owned by Moon and the Unification Church.

I don't have too much of a problem, except what is the criteria for removing content of a central figure on another page, i.e. Glenn Smith on TfT and John O'Neill on SBVT?? I would suggest looking at either or both criteria to set policy rather than on a case-by-case basis:

1. Person has a significant amount of information that would go beyond a mere stub.
2. Person is known for any significant reason beyond founding the group.

Just a thought. --kizzle 17:40, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

Feel free to make John O'Neill and Glenn Smith pages. This in fact, is the right way to go. Also, the infor which should go in on the personal pages ias all the personal flaws and foibles. They must go there so that any tit-for-tat edits and rebutals do not glog up related pages. This is the rule that was intsituted at TfT and which get rebuttals off that page: TfT argumwents are about issues relating to GWBMSC and for that reason are shunted there. Same thing here. Sherwood persomnal issues are about Sherwood himself. Glogging SH is POV edits such as Gamaliel is demanding is farcical. ] 17:57, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If this stuff on Sherwood goes, all of the info on Sherwood should go, including the "decorated Vietnam veteran" and "pulitzer prize winner", as none of that relates to SH either. You can't keep the good Sherwood info and then ship off the Moonie stuff to another article. ] 17:44, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gamaliel, you are totally off base again. A limited about of personal detail is fine as it helps segue the atricle flow in a rational manner. You are simply trying to inject "moonie" accusations here to discredit Stolen Honor itself. Frankly, the more you edit, the more it;s clear that your bias is the soruce of conflict. ] 17:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No matter how many words you put in bold it won't change the fact that you are sugarcoating Sherwood's background by including only positive things about him like his pulitzer and his Vietnam service and excluding negative things about him like his moonie connections. ] 17:59, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The "Tom Ridge" connection is included at JML's insistance - as it tends to show Republican connections - a valid point to raise in a partisan race. The "moonie" accusation is a more generalized slur and belongs only on personal page -if anywhere. Also please note for the record that Gamaliel (see above) expressly calls the "moonie" connection a negative. This is precisely what I have said Gamaliel is up to: trying to insert POV material to drag down Sherwood and with him, the validity of the documentary itself. POV bias laid bare! ] 18:00, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Way to go Perry Mason. ] 18:12, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

By saying to exclude all the Information, Gamaliel is attempting to INCLUDE POV stuff? Lyellin 18:17, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

I thought the key point of the passage about Sherwood's book was not that he had ties to the Unification Church, but rather that, while purporting to produce an independent investigation, he was actually giving the subject of the investigation prior review of the text, and even making changes requested by the subject. This violation of normal journalistic procedure is relevant to his credibility. JamesMLane 18:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

JML, if (and only if) you can make a rational case for journalistic flaws, provided that there is a genuine - and reported on - issue there, then it would be enough to detail that issue on the personal page and have a one or two sentence pointer link to that page. Personal problems belong on the personal page. I am simply amazed at how you are disregarding the very principles you've previously insisted on regarding segregation of material. Frankly, you are simply trying to muck things up here. This is the lowest you have ever stooped. ] 18:58, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I would like to share the following information which Rex just left on my talk page:

If you restore that text again, I am going to file an RfA against you. Rex071404 19:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

He is, of course, referring to the text discussed here, which he has currently reverted five times in about 2-3 hours. I assume that, if it comes to the RfA he threatens, I will have witnesses that the issue had not been "already been debated and resolved", as he claimed? -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:37, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex just makes it up as he goes along. Let him file, there's already two open RfAs against him. It'll just save us the trouble of filing the third. ] 19:42, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Personal attacks on Sherwood do not belong in Stolen Honor article

As the prior talk page (see archive ) and my edit summaries have made clear, the personal information for Sherwood belongs on his personal article, not in the Stolen Honor article. ] 20:36, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article is about the documentary. The documentarian in question has been praised for past efforts, and he has also been criticized for violations of journalistic integrity. That is relevant to the documentary. The information which is personal, rather than professional, is the information you keep putting in about the documentarian being an executive vice-president of the WVC3 group and the like.

No matter how much you claim that "the prior talk page" and "my edit summaries" "made it clear", as much as you claim the issue "has already been debated and resolved", these claims are not true. Continuing to make false claims simply establishes further that you have either no intention or no capability to participate in Misplaced Pages in good faith. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:00, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Feldspar, your bad faith is evidenced by the title change you made here ] 21:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You are coming late to this dialog. This core group of editors has already discussed this and as evidenced by the treatment of a number of articles - not just this one - the apporpriate place for the additional material is the personal article page for Sherwood himself. Frankly, I am beginning to think you hate "moonies" or something and are hoping to slander Sherwood by association. ] 21:18, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Either that, or you were acting in bad faith to call it "personal" information in the first place. I have changed it again, to something more accurate.

Yes, I am coming late to this dialog. This is presumably why you believed that if you falsely asserted that the issue had "already been discussed and resolved", that I would not know better. Now you are asserting that the "core group of editors" has already resolved that the place for "the additional material" is the personal article page for Sherwood.

Firstly, given your unwillingness or inability to represent others accurately, I feel no reason to accept your representation that the "core group" has settled the issue for all articles. Secondly, by grouping it all together as "the additional material", you are obscuring the fact that some of the material (mostly that which you yourself added) is purely about Sherwood the person, and some of the material (including everything that I have added) is about Sherwood's record as a documentarian. Falsely describing it all as "personal" information that should go in the personal article does not resolve the question.

Finally, your accusation that I "hate 'moonies'" is laughable. Do you have any evidence for this? Any particular reason you're ignoring the very logical reasons I've presented why the quality of a documentarian's work is relevant to a documentary, in favor of your unsupported theory of a prejudice against "moonies"? It doesn't matter if it's the Unification Church, the Roman Catholic Church, Citibank, the Oddfellows, the ACLU or the Flat Earth Society. If a journalist says he's doing an "independent investigation" and then it turns out that the topmost levels of the organization he's "investigating" had access to and any amount of editorial veto power over that "independent investigation", then it says something about that documentarian's work that is relevant to any future "independent investigations".

You saying this "given your unwillingness or inability to represent others accurately" shows that you are off base here. The article is about the documentary. There is no "others" (as in person) at issue in this article. ] 22:58, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Then what about John O'Neill on SBVT and Glenn Smith on TfT? Do we take off all personal info about them as well? --kizzle 23:29, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and Rex? There's a thing called the three revert rule. Please abide by it. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:32, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Does not apply when reverting overt vandalism, which is what your repeated injection of inappropriate content is. ] 22:56, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, could you cite the exact text that states that more than three reverts are allowed to revert overt vandalism. AlistairMcMillan 23:12, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Firstly, Rex, I am sure you would like to believe that you are the sole determiner of what is relevant to this article and what is not. However, your merely wishing to believe it, pretending to believe it, or even actually believing it, does not make it fact: there are others such as myself, such as James M. Lane, such as Gamaliel, who do not agree with you about what is relevant to the article. These are the others whom you misrepresented when you asserted on my talk page that the issue "has already been debated and resolved".

Now even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually understood this, and were saying something along the lines of "We are not the issue here, and should not be under discussion; we should confine our debate to the article subject itself," well, I can only point out that you violated this yourself with your bizarre accusation that I must hate the Unification Church, since that is who Sherwood worked for and whom he chose to do an "independent investigation" of and whom he turned over some measure of editorial power to.

Finally, do you have some basis for classifying an edit made in good faith that you do not happen to like as "overt vandalism"? Besides, of course, your assertion that the page as it stands represents a group consensus, an assertion which we have already determined to be false. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The issue has been resolved. Fishboy tightened the offending section of text. I have tweaked Fishboy's edit. I am ok with this now, if the others are too. ] 23:38, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You do not have the authority to declare that the issue is "resolved". -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Nor you, to dominate or inject POV edits. ] 00:15, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If you can explain where I got the power to "dominate", I'd be interested to hear it. It'd be a bummer if I was omnipotent and everyone forgot to tell me. As for POV edits, very well. I'll continue my unbroken record of making only those edits to this article that add more relevant information. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While you may consider your POV vandalism "relevant" it does not belong here. Your anti-Sherwood information belongs on the article page that deals with Sherwood. This page deales with the Stolen Honor documentary and only slightly with Sherwood himself. ] 01:01, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, I like the Fishboy version. I don't mind a wording tweak to imply that no one has suggested the contract is improper, but I do think a whole sentence (as in Rex's) is a bit heavy stylistically. Wolfman 02:09, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)