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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rationalobserver (talk | contribs) at 20:22, 17 November 2014 (→"C..." is never acceptable?: No offense, but I see you as an apologist for your friends and an elitist regarding everyone else.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Garbage RfC

Rationalobserver, Hi, I would appreciate input on a recent poll.--Lpdte77 (talk) 10:42, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, sorry; Just recalled your reply to the former request. --Lpdte77 (talk) 10:44, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I added my !vote. Rationalobserver (talk) 15:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. --Lpdte77 (talk) 07:15, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Traditional marriage

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My amended statement at RfC

I've amended my statement at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/DangerousPanda-EatsShootsAndLeaves to add additional detail and some links. I'm really under the gun at work and this RfC came up unexpectedly so I'm pressed for time to do proper strikethroughs, etc. Bbb23 had a good suggestion, that I notify anyone who's added an endorsement, so you can decide if you think you need to re-sign or remove your endorsement or make a different response. Msnicki (talk) 22:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

"The first bit"

Re this edit summary; you wrote that "Facts and ideas that are considered common knowledge cannot be protected by copyright", implying that particularly obscure facts or ideas could be. That's not true, and that's what I was objecting to. Ironholds (talk) 17:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Ironholds, I was referring to "The only source material that you can use in an essay without attribution is material that is considered common knowledge and is therefore not attributable to one source." Do you think my addition contradicted Harvard, or do you think that Harvard contradicts our policy? Rationalobserver (talk) 18:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I think Harvard is talking about plagiarism in an academic context, not copyright. If they're talking about copyright, well, they're simply wrong. Ironholds (talk) 20:40, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 September 28

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"C..." is never acceptable?

That's one of those absolute statements.

I'm Australian. An old part of the Australian idiom, rarer now, but still in existence, is for a man to greet an old male friend with "How are ya' ya' silly old cunt". It's a friendly expression, between two mates. It has nothing to do with women. I don't use the it myself. Just highlighting how impossible it is to ever create a list of words that are never acceptable.

Civility is an excellent goal, but lists of words aren't the issue. It's attitudes. I get in the way of POV pushers. They tend to come and annoy me on my Talk page. I first tell them to go away. They keep it up. I revert to stronger language. They report me for swearing. They get banned from my Talk page. Perfect strategy? I don't know. But it works. You see, it's the POV pushing that's really the uncivil behaviour in that story. The stronger language highlights it and tends to reduce it's occurrence. HiLo48 (talk) 20:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I guess I hear you, but I think that if the word can also be used in a friendly statement, then its use should be obviously playful in that context. If I said, "How are ya', ya' silly old cunt", you would likely realize immediately that I am not trying to insult you. On the other hand, if I said: "Stop reverting me you stupid cunt", you would realize that I used the word in anger in an attempt to insult you. Like I said at Civility and WER, according to WP:NPA: "some types of comments are never acceptable", such as "Racial, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets". That's quite explicit, and "cunt" certainly qualifies as a gender specific epithet according to this guideline. Your point above can also be applied to the term, "nigger", but the word does not cease to be an epithet just because there are a few appropriate and/or joking ways to use it. I can understand that sometimes certain policies are not enforced, but if that's the case with Civility, I think we should reconsider including it as a pillar, because nothing breeds contempt for rules as much as those that are on the books but not enforced in practice. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:09, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, you and I actually agree on many things Rationaobserver, even if we have different ways to get our points across, and different ideas on how to achieve those goals. I hate that word, won't tolerate it as a personal attack, and when used casually, will just warn a user that it can get them blocked. I've told Eric a half dozen times that he needs to stop, and supported his block for saying it the other day. I can still like Eric and dislike some of the things he says, in part because I know that word is used differently in the UK. That isn't an excuse, but an explanation. I don't think it is the biggest crime here or as bad as POV pushing and POV socking, but it is an insensitive thing to say if you know it will offend a large number of people. I have no children, but if I did and one called someone the C word, I would slap the taste out of their mouth. In my culture (US) that is the most offensive thing you can say. But Misplaced Pages isn't an American workplace, it is a global village, so I have to make small allowances even if I find it offensive personally. I can't let my bias get in the way of acting neutral as an administrator. I will still discourage it, and block for it when it is used as a weapon, without judging the character of the other person.

You keep getting back to the Five Pillars, a document I like myself. It is a clever document, an essay really, that sums up our hopes and ideals but has zero power of enforcement. It was created by User:Neutrality in 2005, can be edited by anyone except IPs (it is semi-protected). The Pillars are powerful, simple, useful, helpful but not policy and they never will be. They reflect our our hopes and dreams for Misplaced Pages, and serve new users very well because they so concisely explain who we are. They do so at the expense of accuracy, however, as we are forced to oversimplify in order to make each pillar an easy to understand little nugget. They do not form the basis for policy. They stand alone, and in that respect, have served us well.

You are relatively new here, I will just say that the current fit of incivility will pass. Like the ocean tides, different problems rise and fall, part of a larger pattern, somewhat chaotic if you look at up close, but it smooths out if you see over time. Most of the people here, even the rude ones, are good people if you get to know them. The people who get things done, who accomplish things (here and life in general) are those that can lick their wounds, admit their mistakes, step back sometimes and reflect, and not take things personally. I put a giant apology on my page (and 3 others) the other day for a mistake I made. The taste of crow still lingers. But it ended what could have been drama, and restored faith in those involved, instantly, so it served Misplaced Pages best for me to do that instead of beat the drama drum. While right on the merits, I was wrong on procedure, but I would rather be happy than right. Anyway, I won't be upset if you revert. For me, the goal is always to find the things we agree upon, and build on that, rather than debate the areas we disagree. I'm wired that way, to accept differences, and allow myself to consider other ideas while they consider mine. Hopefully, that is something that will happen. Dennis - 2¢ 16:52, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

You warned me about being "disruptive" at WER, but have you ever warned Eric about being disruptive at GGTF? Rationalobserver (talk) 16:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The Pillars are powerful, simple, useful, helpful but not policy and they never will be.

Huh? Dennis, the first pillar, Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not, is a policy and so is the second pillar: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. The third and fourth pillars, Misplaced Pages:Copyrights and Misplaced Pages:Civility are also policies. The last pillar, Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules, is proabably the closest to an essay, but it too is an official Misplaced Pages policy. So, what exactly are you claiming, that these five pages are policy in name only? Rationalobserver (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The individual policies existed as policies before the "Pillars" was invented. It is useful, but the idea of "pillars" is still an artificial construct. And yes I did warn Eric, in particular about calling Jimbo the C word, and told him "I would have blocked you too". I didn't warn him at GGTF because I didn't SEE it. I've never edited there, it isn't even on my watchlist. I did go there once, I didn't care for the tone, I left without comment. For me to comment might have been disruptive. I've warned Eric on other things, I just don't beat him over the head with it. He isn't stupid. To repeat it over and over would be bludgeoning. That is my point: Once you have had your say, don't keep repeating the same points over and over. You don't have to let everyone know every time you disagree. It can become badgering. If you say "I hate ice cream", you don't have to tell me you hate ice cream every time I bring up how much I like it in future discussions, nor convince me that ice cream is bad for me. It gets tiresome, and after a while, it is disruptive. Sometimes, you just have to know when to drop the stick.

If I "hated" you, I wouldn't be telling you this. It doesn't benefit me in any way, I have nothing to gain personally and could be doing other things, yet here I am. Again, you are rather new, and I don't want to see you eventually in the same position that Carol and Eric are right now. I've seen it before, many times, I know what it looks like before/during/after. Usually it happens at WP:AN, where the threshold is much lower and the ban is just as final. I'm saying that if you want to do good, you really need to learn to disconnect emotionally here and assume some good faith. Worry less about breaking things down, and instead, embrace those that agree with you on most issues, and build something great together. We need more articles on notable women, for instance. Lets make a list and fix that instead of arguing about things that don't improve the experience for the reader.

If you can't see that what I've written in the best of faith, with years of experience behind it, and that it is the same thing I would (and have) said to Eric, then I'm wasting my time and yours. I'm not trying to argue with you here, nor wag my finger at you, I'm trying to help you. If you don't want the help, that is ok, too. Say the word, I will leave your talk page, I promise. I'm not trying to force it on you, nor judge your character in the least, I'm commenting on your methods. I'm trying to reach out to you because I've seen others walk the path you are on, and I know where it leads. Dennis - 2¢ 19:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

No offense, but I see you as an apologist for your friends and an elitist regarding everyone else. In the past few weeks you have made your rounds to every drama-filled discussion, and at each stop you assert what is no more than your personal opinion regarding how things should be around here. I think admins should be expected to uphold policies, not undermine them in favor of their preferences. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC)