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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Beeblebrox (talk | contribs) at 21:42, 12 August 2015 (→Requested move 12 August 2015: bullshit). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Suicide

I wonder if there's a way to express this concept that doesn't reference (and wikilink) suicide? The use of 'rope' and 'hanging' is direct and graphic, complete with diagram and reference to a hangman at the switch (actually not consistent with the proverb on self-hanging). What seems to make it more distasteful is the mutual wikilinking with the essay Misplaced Pages Is Not Therapy, thus collaterally linking in real psychological disturbance and suicidality. It is surprising to see that the primary creator of this is a senior Wikipedian with admin, oversight and arbitration roles. It is clear there has been a need to assert boundaries under pressure. But it seems strange this essay makes it into Misplaced Pages space in this form, yet User:Beeblebrox/The_unblockables does not even though it seems to address an important reality (which perhaps does not want to be more widely admitted). Sighola2 (talk) 17:39, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

On a different note, I mentioned WP:ROPE recently, and I had the unintended response that I was implying an editor would hang themselves, as oppose to being a net asset if they were unblocked. I've added to the article that the title and the WP:ROPE shortcut can be be taken as uncivil. Perhaps this essay should be renamed, or merged with Misplaced Pages:Unblocks are cheap.—Bagumba (talk) 08:10, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
If they are that incompentent they shouldn't be here. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 16:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Just noting for the record that:
  • If someone thinks we are actually trying to compel them to kill themselves, they clearly haven't actually read this and are probably too emotionally unstable to be editing in a collaborative environment like this
  • I kept the unblockables essay in my userspce because I wanted to keep it saying what I wanted it to say, and not be watered down by fake civility crusaders making up silly objections. Until now that hadn't been a problem with this essay, but if a consensus should emerge to transform this into a piece of cuddly, everybody-gets-a-gold-star nonsense I will recreate it in my userspace, and I imagine it will kepp getting cited by others in discussions as it has been for five years now.

Hope that clarifies matters for you. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 12 August 2015

It has been proposed in this section that Misplaced Pages:Give 'em enough rope be renamed and moved to Misplaced Pages:Give second chances.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Misplaced Pages:Give them enough rope → Misplaced Pages:Give second chances – This essay should be moved to Misplaced Pages:Give second chances (a recent good-faith move by User:Alakzi to that name was reverted). The page already caries the notice "Using the rope analogy directly can be regarded as uncivil and a lack of good faith", and the current title is not conducive to aiding misguided editors to become more amenable and productive. See also the section preceding this one. There is nothing to lose, and much to be gained, by a rename. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Bagumba:. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose move - Common guys, let's not squeeze all the juice out of the place in our attempt to be PC. It's a colorful metaphor, not an invitation to a hanging. (And, BTW, in the history of the world there have been far more legal hangings then there have been illegal lychings. For centuries hanging was the normal way of carrying out a legal death sentence.) BMK (talk) 16:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support move and rewrite. The essay and article name are easily misunderstood, and wording in suicide metaphers is hardly civil, not even funny. On top of moving, it should also been used less. (I have seen one editor made unhappy by the usage, which is one too many.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:50, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose move for the same reason as I opposed the deletion, just because you don't like it doesn't means it must change. I'd also like to point out that only counts when the person wants it. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 16:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe I said you were. What i did say was that you seem intent on changing an essay to say something else other than what it says. That would be better done by creating a new essay that expresses your point of view, instead of watering down this essay so it doesn't scare people. None of which has anything to do with why you saw fit to resort to personal attacks in a move discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Read the opposes it's not like I'm the lone person in disagreeing with your interp. You appear to be in a very small minority. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:12, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Support The concern with the suicide analogy has been outstanding since 2014. I don't think the new title needs to be the final one, but it's a start towards finding a better one. Let's all be frank: that this is a political correctness debate. Much like the modern display of the Confederate flag, it needs to be decided if negative reactions need to be balanced with historical usage. I'm OK with the content having some references to rope, but the title having rope as the main theme goes against WP:AGF, which is a fundamental part of Misplaced Pages's five pillars. Yes, some editors will ultimately be indefinitely blocked, but the positive is that others go on to be (more) productive.—Bagumba (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
The "concern witht he suicide analogy" is a ridiculous concern and a red herring. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This proposal would change the scope of the essay. Since there's nothing to stop any editor from writing a "give second chances" essay afresh. moving this page to form the basis of an essay with a different scope would be effectively deleting the present essay. There has just now been a closed MfD in which the idea of deleting this essay was opposed almost universally. Therefore, there should not now be a proposal to effect the same deletion by a different means. Also: fuck the use of "triggering" for bullshit censorship. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 18:02, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose move We have been linking to this with a context for years now, changing it now would remove that context and make countless comments make no sense at all. The essay is trying to get something very specific across and the current title does a good job doing that. Chillum 18:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Title aside, I don't think anyone has a problem with retaining the essay's theme of giving a last chance, and the editor will either stay out of trouble of just get reblocked. So there should be little concern of making "countless comments make no sense at all". Redirects from old titles are standard procedure in any page move, and there is no problem with there being multiple shortcuts to a page.—Bagumba (talk) 19:02, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support: The article contains a theme that is slightly morbid and unsettling, notably with the shortcuts of "rope" and "hang" having morbid connotations especially in the heat of the moment. I am not pro-"PCing" this article but the tone needs to change to be more neutral with less morbid connotations due to its usages. Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Seems like another example of the many recent pointy PC campaigns. The phrase is well known in the English-speaking world and its common usage is certainly not related to suicide. Far better to use a well established, well recognised vernacular than to introduce yet another bureaucratic title just for the sake of it. If the PC brigade want to do something useful, how about trying to encourage more people to subtitle videos when they use them as sources? - Sitush (talk) 19:26, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I got to toying with the potential title WP:Last Chance Saloon and even got as far as doing the Ngrams. According to Last Chance Saloon it stands for the last chance of a "civil" drink before heading out into the yonder. Just a thought.
  • My first reaction to the proposal was What the Fuck is this sanctimonious wet apologetic compromise but gradually came to consider that the proposal made a good point. With whatever title is used, a focus should be on the hope of change not the the expectation that someone will mess up. I like the present expression but also like the sentiment in the proposal. I need a drink. GregKaye 19:42, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose move, this describes actual practice, you'd need to change practice before you could really justify removing this essay. Guy (Help!) 20:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose move per Ceradon,Chillum ,Sitush and 209.211.131.181.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:21, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits

At the same time as the move suggested above, my recent edits, taking into account the new name, and which were summarily reverted (with edit summaries of "undiscussed move" and " pre-crusade version"), should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest waiting for consensus on the above page move. It involves the similar theme of whether the metaphor should remain the main theme of the essay.—Bagumba (talk) 17:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Agreed, it's basically different aspects of the same question. If the page stays here (or the "nearby" Give 'em title, most of the changes wouldn't make sense. If it's moved, then the text changes would depend mostly on what the new title is. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Given the response to your other changes I would seek consensus first. Chillum 19:03, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

You all seem to have missed the opening phrase of this section: "At the same time as the move suggested above...". I chose them deliberately. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:30, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I know you said that, I am responding to your "same time" wording and your "should be restored" wording with "get consensus first" wording. Chillum 19:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Sounds familiar in some way although I'm not sure how. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Removals and Additions

Editing the article to a POV status doesn't help the case, hyperbole that this advocates suicide with dubious references just makes it look flimsy and reaching. Also when removing long standing content merely on the basis you don't like it needs a consensus when challenged. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I found the silly "warning" particularly offensive. Just because some people are apparently incapable of understaning what a metaphor is we aren't allowed to use them anymore? I don't think so. And why was a link added to "wikibullying" which the exact opposite of what this essay is about? This sin't about pushing people around, it's about finding out if they are honest and competent or not. This is indeed a "crusade" and it is utterly ridiculous. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
I found the removal warning far from silly, and its removal offensive. And Hell in a Bucket's edit war to remove it (removing long standing content merely on the basis he didn't like it) PoV. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:09, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
It's an esay, not an article. Its explicit purpose is to express a point of view. If you have a differing point of view, feel free to write an essay about that and call it whatever you like, avoiding scary metaphors of course. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Per Misplaced Pages:Essays#Creation_and_modification_of_essays, essays may be freely edited by others subject to the usual community policy on consensus. Essays on user pages, however, offer more protections if one doesn't want their viewpoint modified.—Bagumba (talk) 19:19, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
It's called WP:BRD, I challenged the removal the next step was for a discussion to gain consensus but if you feel that strongly let me help you with the link WP:3RR. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
@Beeblebrox:: The text you removed did not say we aren't allowed to use metaphors like ROPE anymore. I added the text based on my experience with it, and thought other editors would like the data point. I generally like the essay; I'll just use the more neutral WP:LASTCHANCE shortcut that you had created going forward.—Bagumba (talk) 20:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

pagemove cleanup

This is a purely technical problem, caused by the recent fracas and page moving. For five years this page was called "Give 'em enough rope" but now it has (unfortunately in my opinion) been moved to "give them enough rope". Perhaps this will need to wait until a concensus is clear on the current rename proposal, but assuming it fails, I think it should be move back to the original title it had for five years. But, failing that the talk page archives were apparently left behind in all the moving and are no longer linked from this page, as you can see from the redlink in the archive box up top. There is only one, now at Misplaced Pages Talk:Give 'em enough rope/Archive 1. If this name is to be kept it should be moved. I am just noting this for the record here and would ask everyone to please not act hastily, there's been quite enough of that already. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:25, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I've moved the archive *temporarily* to here, so it's all together. i think there might be a benefit to being able to read the archive when discussing the RM. It might have been cleaner to move everything back to the original title, but at this stage it would cause more heartache than it's worth. When the RM is closed, the talk page archive can be moved wherever. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:56, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
That seems reasonable. You've been being reasonable an awful lot lately, did you get hit on the head or something? Beeblebrox (talk) 20:27, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm preparing the groundwork for a run for ArbCom. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Move protection

Upon the failure of the RM Should the requested move not gain consensus, should the move protection stay indefinitely to prevent such a blowup from recurring? --ceradon (talk • edits) 19:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there was a move war per se to warrant indef move protection. It does discourage productive editors from being bold. Here's what I see what happened:

  1. 15:27, 12 August 2015 Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Give 'em enough rope closed as snow keep.
  2. 15:34 Misplaced Pages:Give 'em enough rope moved to Misplaced Pages:Give second chances with edit summary "Move to a title that's not glaringly offensive for a start"
  3. 15:51 ANI report at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#ROPE_renamed_without_discussion
  4. 15:53 Misplaced Pages:Give second chances moved to Misplaced Pages:Give them enough rope
  5. 15:57 Indef move protection
  6. 16:35 RM started at Wikipedia_talk:Give_them_enough_rope#Requested_move_12_August_2015 to move Misplaced Pages:Give them enough rope to Misplaced Pages:Give second chances

I'd unprotect after the RM is closed, and revisit only as needed.—Bagumba (talk) 20:25, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Why? It's fairly standard procedure that when a page has been moved without consensus, and that move is reversed, that move protection be applied indefinitely as a prophylactic measure against further controversial moves without prior consensus. This is already a mess, it seems eminently reasonable, regardless of the outcome of the move discussion, to prevent further undiscussed moves. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:29, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
I suspect the uproar is that the nominator of the MfD, after a snow keep, is the one who made the bold move. Any further move without consensus of this page from that user could be dealt with directly with that user. Otherwise, I do not see the point in being so preemptive to prevent a potential good faith bold move in the future. I see no other history with this essay to warrant it.—Bagumba (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
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