Talk:Alfred-Maurice de Zayas

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A new article about de Zayas

Ruggles’ Supposed Sovereignty “Expert” Has A Troubling Past, Hawai'i Free Press Cullen Let's discuss it 03:41, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Given the almost total absence of secondary sources in our current article, this looks like something we should use. Is it considered RS? BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Alfred de Zayas memorandum regarding the Hawaiian Islands

I have attempted to include the following de Zayas excerpt from his memorandum found at https://hawaiiankingdom.org/pdf/Dr_deZayas_Memo_2_25_2018.pdf and quoted in the Guardian at https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/29/hawaii-politician-jennifer-ruggles-sovereign-country:

The UN Independent Expert advocated for legal compliance within the territory of the Hawaiian Islands, publishing a legal memorandum that states: "I have come to understand that the lawful political status of the Hawaiian Islands is that of a sovereign nation-state in continuity; but a nation state that is under a strange form of occupation by the United States resulting from an illegal military occupation and fraudulent annexation. As such, international laws (The Hague and Geneva Conventions) require that governance and legal matters within the occupied territory of the Hawaiian Islands must be administered by the application of laws by the occupied state (in this case, the Hawaiian Kingdom) not the domestic laws of the occupier (the United States)."

However, this excerpt has been repeatedly removed from his wikipedia page. I cleaned up my introduction and summary leading into his excerpt- however my edit was still removed. I am simply quoting his work- this is not my personal opinion. Please advise. (SpeakingTruthToPower4Freedom (talk) 04:30, 28 January 2019 (UTC))

This content does not belong in the lead section of the article, because the purpose of that section is to summarize the body of the article. "Advocacy" is a better section. The quote is excessively long in the context of this biography, since this person is involved with many, many issues other than Hawai'i and we don't have lengthy quotes from him on those other issues. Hawaiiankingdom.org is not a reliable source for general use on Misplaced Pages because it is an advocacy website. Also, de Zayas is no longer the UN independent expert. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:41, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@SpeakingTruthToPower4Freedom: It's OK to be WP:BOLD and try to improve articles; however, if you're "improvement" is undone or reverted by another editor who leaves an edit summary indicating something other than being a case of clear-cut vandalism, then you are obligated to follow WP:BRD and engage in discussion on the article's talk page to try and establish a consensus for inclusion. You shouldn't simply keep trying to add the content over and over again because this is likely going to be seen a edit warring. Now, regarding this particular quote, I tend to agree with Cullen328 in that it might be possible to mention something about this in a neutrally worded sentence about Hawaii, but the long quote seems a bit WP:UNDUE. Misplaced Pages articles are not really the place to right great wrongs and not every thing Zayas has said or done needs to be mentioned. So, maybe a shortened version of what the Guardian wrote would be better suited for this article or even better perhaps in Hawaiian sovereignty movement. Finally, I also agree that hawaiiankingdom.org is not a reliable source for Misplaced Pages pruposes. Anyway, I've hid the content for the time being until a consensus can be established for its inclusion. I've also posted a {{Please see}} at WT:HAWAII to let that WikiProject know about the discussion. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Sure, I am happy to continue the discussion to reach a consensus. However, I have some disagreement with the points you and Cullen make about my sourcing/citing. The hawaiiankingdom.org website provides the PDF of the de Zayas memorandum. Its an official document written by de Zayas and therefore I see no relevance in discussing the websites legitimacy, because they are simply providing the original source document. Also, I cited the guardian article as well, however it is unclear to me why the guardian is a legitimate source of information while hawaiiankingdom.org is not. All media representations are partial, partisan and problematic, how do you deal with inherent human bias? Meanwhile I cited the original source document of the de Zayas excerpt I provided. The de Zayas Misplaced Pages page is about him, and therefore sharing excerpts of his writing to describe a significant conversation that he has contributed much to, seems quite relevant and unbiased in the sense of reporting on it. Especially when the reporting content is mostly just his excerpt being posted to his page, again about a significant event that he has deeply impacted.

In addition, there is inconsistency when we look at what is allowed on the Hawaiian sovereignty movement page contrasting my edit on the Alfred de Zayas page. For example, there is no citation at the end of this paragraph, and the statement is important, because it is a falsification of Hawaiian history as I know from historian Ron Williams, PHD, who works at the Hawaii State Archives, and specializes in the history of the Home Rule Party. He tells us that the political party known as the Home Rule Party supported and successfully passed a great deal of legislation, all of which was vetoed by the American installed territory governor. In addition describing the party as radical compared to the Democratic Party of Hawaii is also exaggerative opinionated writing. Regardless this biased version of history also has no citation:

Home Rule Party of Hawaii

Main article: Home Rule Party of Hawaii

Following the annexation of Hawaii, Wilcox formed the Home Rule Party of Hawaii on June 6, 1900. The Party was generally more radical than the Democratic Party of Hawaii. They were able to dominate the Territorial Legislature between 1900 and 1902. But due to their radical and extreme philosophy of Hawaiian nationalism, infighting was prominent. This, in addition to their refusal to work with other parties, meant that they were unable to pass any legislation. Following the election of 1902 they steadily declined until they disbanded in 1912. SpeakingTruthToPower4Freedom (talk) 07:00, 28 January 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpeakingTruthToPower4Freedom (talk • contribs) 06:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion, the document should be treated as a primary source which means that it needs to be used carefully, and any interpretation of the document is going to need to come from reliable secondary sources, which I don't think hawaiiankingdom.com qualifies as and is what I meant by it being non-reliable. I apologize if I wasn't clear about that. All sources are biased to some degree as explained in WP:BIASED, but Misplaced Pages limits us to using only those which are condsidered to be reliable. Personally, I'm not exactly sure the Guardian would be a reliable source in this particular context for anything but the quote itself, but major newspapers are generally considered have in place fairly strong editorial controls and do fact checking of what they publish, and it seems unlikely that as a major newpspaper would knowingly misquote something or link to a doctored or otherwise altered pdf file. So, it would be better to find an official UN source for the document than a convenience link if you want to cite it and then a reliable secondary source for any interpretation of it. Then, there would still be the question of whether adding all the content you're proposing would be WP:UNDUE in comparison to the other content in that particular section.As for the other articles you mentioned, those articles may indeed have problems and those should be addressed on their article talk pages; that, however, doesn't necessarily mean their mistakes should be repeated in this article. Perhaps some members from WP:HAWAII will be more familiar with the subject matter and be able to provide more specific feedback. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:13, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Is UNWatch a reliable source?

I presume not, but lots of info here: https://www.unwatch.org/u-n-to-endorse-hero-of-holocaust-deniers-alfred-de-zayas/ BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I understand it may be biased, but I'm not sure if it is unreliable. A discussion in the reliable sources noticeboard may have been opened before. --Jamez42 (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

It was raised in 2009, a bit inconclusively: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_48#UN_Watch I might look at it carefully and check its own sources for inclusion. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:10, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Here's another probably non-reliable source, Inquisitr, possibly worth looking at for its sources: https://www.inquisitr.com/448974/un-general-assembly-to-appoint-hero-of-holocaust-deniers-alfred-de-zayas-to-human-rights-commission/ BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

And another from Libertad Digital: https://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/estados-unidos/2017-09-29/el-experto-de-la-onu-que-apoya-el-golpismo-catalan-es-pronazi-y-procastrista-1276606710/ BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:27, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Non-noteworthy material

I've been trying to make this article somewhat more encyclopedic, as it has been tagged for a while with multiple issues. So far, I don't think I've done anything overly bold, but edit, in which I removed material (citing primary sources) mentioning various side panels and minor writing that he's done, might be worth others' checking in case I'm going too far. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:44, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

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