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User talk:Keesiewonder

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Keesiewonder (talk | contribs) at 00:29, 10 January 2007 (→A lone voice in the wilderness...: "spamming" is not the way to go IMO). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 00:29, 10 January 2007 by Keesiewonder (talk | contribs) (→A lone voice in the wilderness...: "spamming" is not the way to go IMO)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages

Welcome, Keesiewonder!

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Misplaced Pages experience:

Also, here are some odds and ends that I find useful from time to time:

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

You can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~.

Best of luck, and have fun! – ClockworkSoul 22:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Thank you!

I'm glad you love the course! It's a favorite subject of mine, too. ;) If you're interested in helping out in molecular biology topics, you might want to consider joining the Molecular and Cellular Biology WikiProject. Cheers! – ClockworkSoul 16:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Oh, I see you've already joined! In that case, welcome!

Molecular Biology

Hey Kessiewonder,

I too am studying courses which include those in molecular biology. I'd be interested in collaborating on an article with you some time. I've been working on connexin lately (let me know what you think.) If you find an article on an interesting subject that is severely laking, let me know and I'll help you edit it. – JE.at.UWO|T 17:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the message you posted on my talk page:
Hey, that sounds good. I doubt I'm more advanced in science (just a lowly undergrad :) but I know my way around PubMed. So, ya that sounds good. I'm not well versed in GI but I'll do some research on the submucosa. I'll check some other stuff too tomorrow. Maybe we can get a couple articles going and a couple other people in on this. I'm at UWO in London, ON. JE.at.UWO|T 23:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hi, Keesiewonder! Everything that you've ever wanted to know about vandalism can be found at Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. It says it all there with far more detail and clarity than I'm capable at 7am, having woken up with only 4 hours of sleep. ;) – ClockworkSoul 12:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: SIS

Hey Keesiewonder. I wrote a somewhat lengthy reply on my talkpage to your message, so rather than reiterate everything I said there, you can read it there. I'm still not sure what is the proper convention regarding replying to people. Best Regards, JE.at.UWO|T 19:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Dogs

By all means add your name to the project page. We would be more than happy to have you join the project. The more, the merrier! Badbilltucker 01:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Stents

I just happened to read yesterday in the NEJM that the FDA is taking some heat over off-label use of stents by surgeons. Apparently the FDA only approves the use of stents for vessels up to a particular diameter, after which the likelyhood of inflammation and thrombosis increases drastically. It will be interesting to see if SIS has any applications in this area. BTW, I like your new userpage. Keep it up! PS J'ai vu que tu peux parler francais avec un niveau elementaire. Moi, j'habitais a France pour 4 mois, alors si tu auras besoin d'aide, je pouvais t'aider! --JE.at.UWO|T 16:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The Religious Left, on the 'pedia

Hey there, Keesiewonder. I just happened to end up at your user page, and noticed some of your userboxes. We share several common beliefs, and that's why I wanted to inform you of another userbox/category that you may find interest in. Category:Religious Left Wikipedians is an organized category of progressive Christian Wikipedians - those who hold progressive, left-wing, liberal or Democratic ideals as well as a strong faith-ethic. I started the category in response to a lack of unification of people of our beliefs, as opposed to our counterpart, the "religious right" or "conservative right". If you'd like to learn more, drop by the link I left you at the headline of this comment, which gives a decent description as to what a "religious lefty" is about. If you find yourself as intrigued as I anticipate, join up! {{User:MiraLuka/Userboxes/User rl}} is our userbox, or you can just add ] to your userpage(s). Anyhow, if you've got any questions, comments or just thoughts you'd like to share, drop by my talk page. I'm Editor19841, by the way, from Denver. Thanks for your consideration! Editor19841 (talk) 23:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Dogs Portal Did You Know's

I looked and didn't see any specific criteria on the portal's DYK page. Generally, the DYK's are short sentences containing some of the more interesting items in articles related to the subject. What the specific criteria for inclusion in this portal aren't specified anywhere I can see. User:Rfrisbie is the editor who maintains the portal, and you might want to contact him to find out what he wants the selection criteria to be. I have no doubt he will welcome any help. Badbilltucker 16:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Tamaskan dialogue

To Tubezone:

Hi! You know, I hate to mention it, but I wonder if the article on Eurohound is as un-noteworthy as the one on Tamaskan Dog. You're much more experienced in all things Wiki than me; what do you think? Happy Thanksgiving!!! Keesiewonder 15:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

From Tubezone:

It's obscure (700 ghits minus Wiki mirrors), but I don't see it as unnoteworthy as Tamaskan dog. I do find it curious that the photo of a Eurohound was lifted from this page. I would say barely noteworthy, notable mainly because they are used in notable sled racing events.
Let's do a little comparison here:
Eurohound
Has multiple breeders. The breed is a cross of two specific pure breeds, so what it is can be defined. Names of users are public knowledge and are independent of the originators of the breed (and some apparently fairly well known as sled racers), so there's no COI problem. The ghits are spread among a number of unrelated sources. IOW, we can turn up independent sources for information, so it's possible to verify that the breed exists and that it's accepted as a separate breed. There are no breeder links or self-promotion in the Eurohound article, so it's not spam.
Tamaskan
Has one breeder who advertises under multiple names. The true sources of the bloodline of the dog are fuzzy at best, some folks say it's just another Utonagan and even the originator is not real specific about sources. Tamaskan owners all seem to be related in one fashion or another to the same guy who owns the registry and the only kennel that breeds the dog (that's a COI, I think), seems like everything that's known about Tamaskans (including the WP article) comes from the primary source. Most of the Google hits for Tamaskan seem to eminate from two sources: WP and spam by the author of the Tamaskan article. (In some cases the spam is stealthy, like innocent looking blog and BBS questions, eg: one I saw from Wales looking for a "Tamaskan rescue"). The dog breeding community acceptance of this dog as a separate breed is what I would describe as skeptical at best to outright hostile at worst. So the Tamaskan article has problems with WP:COI, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:SPAM and WP:NOTE.
It seems to me that it usually takes a decade or more to establish a new breed (not just a cross) to the point where even the developer(s) consider it notable enough to start announcing it to the breeding community, but this breed seems to have just popped up out of thin air. I find that implausible and it seems like folks who know more about dogs than I do agree.
So that's what I think, hope it helps. Tubezone 16:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

To Tubezone:

From Blufawn: I would just like to stick up for the Tamaskan people here and say how very wrong you are and you should really check the facts before you write such damaging and libel things. Firstly this breed is not another Utonagan and anyone who knows dogs can see that by looking at the photographs of the two seperate breeds. I don't believe for one second that all Tamaskan owners are related thats a very ignorant thing to write. The Tamaskan Register is run by a committee not 'some guy' and there are breeders in Finland, USA and UK so they can't all be the same guy can they?? Of course all the information comes from only a few sources, its a rare breed thats not recognised how many websites do you expect. I wish for you to remove these idiotic comments from this page. Blufawn

To Blufawn from Tubezone: I know I should reply on Ms. Blufawn on her talk page, but as the whole conversation is here:
I think my analysis was by and large correct. A long period of time went by where this article was up, then an AfD was posted, and none of the issues raised were adequately addressed, and still haven't, your contentions aren't convincing to me at least. Also, a long thread on this subject at dogsey.com was deleted, (which, IMA, was started by a very innocuous looking posting) that might have turned up other objections. From what I can tell, there just weren't any mentions of this breed prior to this year at all, no one has brought any up, either.
There are lots of odd breeds out there, while there's plenty of debate on dog breeds, (see: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alopekis for an example) few seem to have generated the general hostility this one has. Also, especially on odd and rare breeds of dogs, the visual characteristics often don't seem to be standardized to the point where one can say "This and this dog are different because they look different", which may be why people would ask for 5 generation verified pedigrees on purebred dogs... There may be people out there who have such a thing for "Tamaskans", but I have not seen anyone claim or advertise that. Tubezone 06:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
From Keesiewonder to Tubezone: I see your note to Blufawn on my talk page. I haven't decided whether I'll paste it for her to see. The reason the entire discussion is there is because, surprise ... she deletes dialogue on her talk page after she is finished with it. I decided to keep a copy of it around since you never know when it may come in handy. Saturday, after she resurrected this mess on my talk page, she blanked the AfD, which was quickly returned by someone else (maybe the nominator of the AfD). About 12 hours later, an administrator deleted the AfD discussion, probably at her request. I managed to get him to restore it provided I'd agree to clean it up. So, I'm waiting for instruction from him on the mechanics of doing that w/o making more enemies. i.e. the Afd clearly states do not edit the AfD, and I've been asked to do so by an administrator, so ... Anyway, I, obviously, do not support this idea of having heated discussions and then having them deleted by appealing to the authorities so when you run Google on your topic, the heated discussions do not show. Interestingly, in the private copy I have of the AfD, where I've drafted deletions to make it "cleaner," it appears that most of what needs to be taken out was written by Blufawn. Ugh! Thanks for listening. Keesiewonder 12:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

To Blufawn:

Regarding the following, which you placed on my talk page ...

I would just like to stick up for the Tamaskan people here and say how very wrong you are and you should really check the facts before you write such damaging and libel things. ... I wish for you to remove these idiotic comments from this page. Blufawn

... Please be sure you know who is writing what, and respond to the proper author.

So, two people were having a conversation on their individual talk pages. If you don't like what one of them wrote, I think the one you're struggling with is Tubezone, not me. And, that aside, asking a user to remove idiotic comments from their talk page seems, well, to use your words, a bit idiotic. Why were you visiting my talk page? Also, remember we're not talking about an article on the Tamaskan dog or rare breeds or anything as well visited and read as you seem to be assuming. We're talking about talk pages. I am more than entitled to think about the topic without ill placed "feedback" from you, don't you think? Please consider an apology, and contacting Tubezone yourself if you don't like our dialogue. If you read carefully, you will see that I had very little to do with the content. Regards, Keesiewonder 17:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

From Blufawn:

I apologise Keesiewonder I didn't notice it was Tubezone until I re-read the comments, I am very sorry. I typed Tamaskan into google and this page was in my search so it is very noticeable even if it is on a talk page. Would you mind removing perhaps the more libel things from Tubezones comments? Thank You Blufawn (equivalent to 80.223.126.199)

To Blufawn: Thank you for the apology. I feel the conversation can stay where it is. Before you asked, I too thought to remove any wiki-links to Tamaskan that I could find that I had placed. If you search again on Tamaskan, I believe you'll see that you now find fewer references. Keesiewonder 18:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Charles Darwin Good articles box

I don't know if it would be possible to change that box directly. I think the people at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Good articles created the template, which gets transcluded into the various talk pages. The only way to change the Darwin template would be to change the base template getting transcluded, and someone would probably revert such a change pretty fast. The best thing I can think of to do would be to contact the project above and ask them to create a more specific biologist template, based on the ever increasing number of good articles. But I think they created the existing template because they didn't want to get what they saw as overspecific. If you can convince them that there is cause to get more specific, that would probably be the easiest way to get the change you suggested. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Badbilltucker 17:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Church Street, Burlington (VT)

Hi, Keesiewonder. You have to be an admin to see deleted articles, but that article really was a candidate for speedy deletion. Its text read as follows: Church street has a homeless guy that walks around dropping the f-bomb and tells people to suck . Church Street has the famous resturaunt of Rusty Scuffers. Mike Lonergan, the head coach of the mens basketball team goes there with his family that includes Luke Higgins. Not much good stuff there. :) – ClockworkSoul 05:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

85.92.183.119 spam reply

As it turns out, that vandal was temporarily blocked earlier today (yay). I don't normally deal with spam vandals, but I'm pretty sure the reason that it took so long was simply because not enough people bothered to put the warning templates on that page, and because it may have taken some time to get the attention of an administrator (they're the only one that can block users). Hope this answers your question, feel free to ask me if you have any more questions! --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 12:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The policy of letting anons edit wiki is very well established, it's been there since the very beginning of wiki, and it's very probably never going to change. Therefore, it's tricky to get information on the possible debates about it. Try looking at Misplaced Pages:Why Misplaced Pages is not so great#Controlling problem users vs. allowing wide participation, Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset#Safe behaviors number eleven on the list. Hope this helps. --13:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

AfD

Thanks for letting me know about that AfD. If you want to vote keep and don't know what to say, you can always write "keep per above". HTH, Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This month's winner is RNA interference!

RNA interference

The Molecular and Cellular Biology WikiProject's current Collaboration of the Month article is RNA interference.

Please help to improve this article to featured article status. Last month's collaboration was proteasome.

– ClockworkSoul 14:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

ISSN

Hi, Ive published my WP:AWB script for ISSNs at Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser/Settings/ISSN. Rich Farmbrough, 22:23 2 December 2006 (GMT).

Folding@home

Just a note of thanks for your patient, calm tone and your supporting research on wikipedia contributions from voters in the F@H SCOTM nomination, during the recent vexatious discussion. Best wishes, susato 04:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

AfD again

very useful suggestion you made, and will be a good precedent for the future. DGG 05:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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all caps

Thanks for pointing that out with the all caps comment. It really looked like that guy was signing that comment. I need be more vigilant at looking at actually history of comments. Thanks again. Dkriegls 03:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Brookfield

I have done what librarians like me usually do: I emailed him from my university account. DGG 02:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I received today,

Dear David, Thank you for your message. I was born in 1955. Best wishes, John Brookfield

I already put it into the article. I hope we don't get flack that it was just email.DGG 01:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I always keep email, forever. Essentially, all my work is done there (open access advocacy). I think not yet on the page.DGG 17:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

work on the Dogs project

The Fauna Barnstar
You've done admirable work with WikiProject Dogs since it's inception, and it wouldn't be anywhere near what it is without your invaluable work. Thanks for all you have done, and all I hope that you plan to do in the future. Badbilltucker 17:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


AfD page

I can restore the page, but would you be then so kind as to clean it up afterwards? There's some nasty language there. David.Monniaux 14:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Schnauzer

I just left the newbie a message on his talk page; with any luck, he won't try this sort of thing again. Regarding the move, go ahead. I'll check to see if you did anything wrong, but I think you've got the procedure down. I'll check to see if you make any mistakes, but I doubt you will. :) Badbilltucker 20:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Tamaskan Dog

I am regrettably as in the dark about this particular process as you are, having never been involved in anything like this before. I think that what he's asking for is just eliminating or improving some of the more objectionable language from the various parties, but I've never dealt with anything specifically like ex post facto adjustment of official wikipedia records, so I don't want to stick my neck out too far here. My best guess is to just ask the admin in question if he can either clarify what s/he means or point toward an example of the kind of cleanup being requested. Sorry I couldn't be of more help here, but I am way out of my depth on this one. Badbilltucker 19:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful work on finding out about it. I guess that such a thing has come up before, but in all honesty I'm surprised that it has come to the point of creating an established procedure for it. Thanks for the info. :) Badbilltucker 15:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

You helped choose Yeast as this week's WP:AID winner

 Thank you for your support of the Article Improvement Drive.
This week Yeast was selected to be improved to featured article status.
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Wolfdog

I did some cleaning up on this page, straightening out some NPOV statements (eg: about whether wolfdogs are hybrids or not) and added references to the DEFRA page and the DEFRA - RSPCA wolfdog report. Please take a look at it. Tubezone 09:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I found out how to combine references in an article. See Tosa (dog) for an example. Also, I think leaving the USDA article in as an external link as well as a reference: it's an easy read, it goes into more detail, and it's an essay (albeit a well referenced an authoritative one), essays can't go into WP. I think I'll save a copy in case the USDA ever takes the link down, and try to incorporate the most important factual points into the WP article. Tubezone 11:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to VandalProof!

Thank you for your interest in VandalProof, Keesiewonder! You have now been added to the list of authorized users, so if you haven't already, simply download and install VandalProof from our main page. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or any other moderator, or you can post a message on the discussion page. Betacommand 17:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Cancelled ISBNs (as in Virtuti Militari)

Hello Keesiewonder! It's good to see somebody working on the invalid ISBNs. In the case of Virtuti Militari I believe that you have not hidden the problem from the ever-watchful SmackBot. For one thing, the colon after the word 'ISBN' has turned off the ISBN magic, but SmackBot watches specifically for colons, and it'll find it eventually. I'd suggest it's more reasonable to just remove the ISBN. Sometimes one of the regular editors will object, but if they don't, I think we're better off without it. Invalid ISBNs represent bad information, and it's not clear that they belong in an encyclopedia. EdJohnston 02:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know; I was afraid of exactly what you have alerted me to. I'll remove the ISBN from the article. If an invalid ISBN is on the talk page, will that also get flagged? Keesiewonder 02:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I see that there are a handful of Talk pages in CAT:INVALID, so it does flag them. To avoid flagging you could perhaps insert a word between the acronym 'ISBN' and the number. EdJohnston 02:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the invalid ISBNs are in use in the library catalogs (WorldCat, etc.) and are used as indexing by various individual library catalogs. So an invalid number is not entirely useless. The choice is to delete entirely or do something like, I think, putting them in a nowiki area with I S B N after the main citation should work. --Bejnar 21:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
This example of an invalid ISBN in the original cataloging is from the Ekpeye article:
My understanding is that it is the spaces that prevent Smackbot from seeing the ISBN. I believe that most of the invalid ISBNs are typos in Misplaced Pages, based on a very small sample. I think OCLC numbers are more useful than LCCN. Some catalogs will key off of OCLC numbers, but most will not. I hope mare will in the future. --Bejnar 22:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks that OCLC format works great! --Bejnar 22:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

"Cannot Locate"

I recognize I am a relative newcomer to WP and to fixing ISBNs. (i.e. please don't bite the newcomers; I'll try to not bite the elders.) However, I have to say I do not particularly like the tendency to insert "cannot locate" after ISBNs that are tagged as being in error. Please see Anatoly Zverev for an example. I trust there is a way to insert this text so it does not appear as part of the article for the basic reader (as opposed to the ISBN hunters/fixers); I think I've already done this myself sometime in the last several weeks. Plus, for those that truly, truly truly cannot be found with a valid ISBN, there are at least three other numbers that can be used and linked to (OCLC, LCCN, ASIN). Please note more times than not, I am finding I am able to find a valid ISBN, though: see this for an example.

I am content that the "cannot locate" items appear to remain tagged as having an invalid ISBN, and am of the type that will come along and relatively quietly really clean them up rather than leave them 97% finished. I certainly am not as fast as other folks at fixing these, so maybe such a work flow, even with the unprofessional looking (to me, anyway) "cannot locate" is perfectly fine. Just thought I'd share my observation on this ... Thanks for your time. And please move this elsewhere if you find it appropriate. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 13:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Talk pages are not processed: these are all cut and paste from articles.
  • "Cannot locate" could be put in html comments "<!-- -->" - it is a bit of a self-ref, talk to User:Ekotie, very friendly guy.
Rich Farmbrough, 13:12 1 January 2007 (GMT).

Ok ... I'll correspond with User:Ekotkie. Can you elaborate on your first bullet item above? I'll go make some more coffee since my brain may not be completely awake, but ... I'm not sure what you're talking about here ... sorry ... :-( ... Keesiewonder 13:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

"If an invalid ISBN is on the talk page, will that also get flagged? " Happy new year. Rich Farmbrough, 13:31 1 January 2007 (GMT).
Ah - a question from a different thread! And, what is "these" in "these are all cut and paste from articles?" Keesiewonder 13:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The "talk" pages that are in CAT:INVALID - three of them I think. Rich Farmbrough, 13:48 1 January 2007 (GMT).

Ok; I think I'm on the same page as you now. I must have asked my original question in a thread from another day poorly. I was wondering whether it would be a good idea to store the invalid and/or canceled ISBNs on article talk pages, especially when changing a SmackBot identified ISBN in error to an OCLC. I like the idea of keeping the "bad" ISBN around, but do not want it to get flagged by SmackBot if I store it on an article's talk page for safe keeping. It sounds like you are saying that article talk pages are not processed, so I could optionally store said "bad" ISBNs there w/o triggering SmackBot. I was not (yet) (intentionally) asking about ISBNs flagged on user talk pages ... but, when I am perplexed by this, I will hopefully remember what you've told me today. Regards, Keesiewonder 14:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Keesie, Just a quick note. I must feed dog (Border Collie) and angry cat (Calico) and coffee proof my comments. My comment (Cannot locate) was intended to let another toiler be aware that a ISBN had been looked at. I "typically" use Amazon and Abebook (Using both to search by title and author name). I have used LoC for other searches but not for this effort. I really wasn't sure who was looking at what, when or where and after discussing this with Rich was my *indicator* that someone had looked at the item in question. I didn't want to disregard the abilities of other. I had concluded the "C" row last night and did a couple D's before I quit for the night. All things considered, I tend to agree with EdJ that a final solution would be to leave the title ref and remove the incorrect ISBN. Since many that are left are foreign I sure expected a *type* expert to step into the fray. Off to feed the pets and myself. Back later. Ekotkie 16:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
It'll all work out! Given the way I work, I'd prefer the error tags for bad ISBNs remain (as they have been) so I have a chance to find the really awful ones. I'd also prefer that we don't have reference pages all over the place that have reference lists that say "cannot locate." I've done several foreign (to me) language ones the last few days including Chinese ones. But ... it is not terribly important ... since we all have the same goal of cleaning the ISBN mess up as best we can. So ... when do you think we'll be under 1000? Ever? (Hi to your pets, BTW.) And Happy New Year to you. Regards, Keesiewonder 16:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Do I detect an eternal optimist? As a retired aerospace engineer I value structure and the ISBN process, as I have seen so far, is not it. My bride is a retired State U librarian who now catalogs church library books and shakes her head at this mess. This is like the business of "where to put the dashes?" Who cares? Just get the number straight. I think Amazon and Abe took the right approach and didn't use any dashes. BTW, Have you read the discussion area on the Cat:Invalid page? Ah yes, the language ones. I too have plowed through a bunch of them and resolved quite a few. I take them, one ISBN at a time and just try to do my best. As you have no doubt noted, many errant ISBN's have mis-worded/fragmented titles. This is a time consuming process that I would not have time for if I wasn't retired. As to leaving the template data, there is a flaw there also. The bot template is written to not show up for the normal page viewer, thus, my short comment will draw attention to the fact that there is and error of some sort. I have had a couple page developers ask me about my comment and all have corrected the information after receiving an explanation. As to getting down to 1000....ha, For awhile their I was getting discouraged that the bot would never quit filling stuff into the A row.Ha. Rich has a counter on his page but I don't know how accurate it is. The bot has finished its tour and Progress has been made. I feel sometimes like I have done "hundreds" but thats just me. Lots to think about but we have a new year and as Rich loves to say.....be bold. Have a great first day of the new year. I ssw where you are owned by pets also. Aren't we the lucky ones? Ekotkie 17:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Can I assist?

If you'd like me to comment at the AfD, could you give me a link, and I'll take a look. By the way, what does your username mean, if I may ask? qp10qp 19:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry about mentioning your animals (the photos are cute), I'm an animal nut too, particularly cats (I think if there was a kittens channel on television, I could watch it all day, no problem). Our cat Cable is only now recovering from the fireworks displays last midnight, which traumatised the poor fellow.
I did hop across to that AfD, and what a no brainer. Wow, your research skills and pertinacity are impressive! Now I know who to come to for a certain type of expertise in future. qp10qp 21:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Charles Whitham - Western Tasmania

Ok, so I had not put a note or withdrawn the reference - I wish I had now - the state reference library of tasmania has not got the correct isbn ( Ihave had a drawn out conversation with them about it) - the shire of queenstown when they reprinted - didnt put the correct ISBN number in - I personally think that the extra numbers are meaningless to the average australian user for instance (I ihave a copy of the 1949 edition and the 2003 or whatever reprint) . I think its a time wasting wild goose chase - I would rather cite the 1949 edition that had no isbn to avoid the whole issue. I am sure you are doing a very good job - and well done - but this particular remedy in my mind is pointless! The thing is the currently available reprint has the wrong isbn of which the correct ones hasnt been fo8und (even national library of austyralia is no help on this) - and really - there are not that many on the second market to warrant the amazon monster even knowing about it ( I know many books that never get in their clutches thank god) So pplease for all your effort - the oclc and amazon numbers might look good but i suspect they are no real help to the average punter/tourist whio buys a copy in Strahan or Queenstown with the wrong isbn anyways! I probably dont make much sense - have a happy new year SatuSuro 15:52, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

OOPS - Sorry I have repeated myself quite unnecesarily - rather than revert - thanks for your trouble in those arts - I can confirm the isbn is wrong - and the book is being sold on the west coast of tassie - and yes people are buying copies of a book with dud isbn- maybe it will go down in history as one of the quirks of western tasmania history ( I knew charles's nephew - it think it was when I was living on the west coast in the mid to late 1970's) - sorry I am so verbose - I thought I had made a nyr resolution about redcing talk page things. sorry!SatuSuro 16:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

No worries, and Happy New Year! It's neat to meet someone who knew Charles' family! This book is cited heavily through the English Language Misplaced Pages with an invalid ISBN as published by the publisher. Such incorrect ISBNs trigger automatic processes such as SmackBot to tag articles that have "invalid ISBNs." People doing research worldwide, not just in Australia, will have a much easier time, I suggest, finding a book that has a valid OCLC than one that has an invalid ISBN. Later today, I will suggest a compromise format for citing this particular work that should not trigger SmackBot. I'm sure we can come up with something that will work for everyone. Also, we can always retain the ivalid ISBN on the article's talk page; article talk pages do not, as far as I understand, cause error tagging by SmackBot. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 16:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you being tolerant of my raving. I think the problem with my western tasmania project ( I seemed to have either started most of or populated most of the more obscure articles) is that whitham is citeable in most of the articles - I dont know whether to cite the 1949 edition- which the main libraries have, or include the 2003 edition - with the incorrect number within a parenthesis or note in some way - what do you think? SatuSuro 16:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

SatuSuro, please let me know what you think of my first idea for a suggested compromise. You may see it in all its glory at User:Keesiewonder/Whitham_Citation. Please feel free to edit there (assuming the Wiki Gods allow it) if convenient for you. (And, no need to apologize; these pages are near and dear to you, as is the content, I expect. I'm the "intruder!" But a curious, kind one. Maybe I'll be so lucky as to see the Western Coast of Australia some day ... or any part of Australia, for that matter). Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 17:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Rule number one on wikipedia - no one owns. I only go to battle with POV issues on the west coast - or kids with nothing better to do (Strahan article) apart from that I have no problem with modificcation. The more the intruders the better then it makes sure I am kept honest - so thanks! Next one - I shouldnt try talk messages at 2 am after seeing the latest james bond movie - the head was in too many places.. The one after that the OCLC link is great! just like the locations for my fathers books (similar holdings different subject - and fifteen to ten years older) . Thank you for the effort. SatuSuro 01:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Technicality - I have also cited Geoffrey Blainey's The Peaks of Lyell - I will do a similar thing and actually I will create whitham and western tasmania articles later today (he and his book are notable) so that we can put your excellent full cite there - and maybe do links for the subsidiary articles that link SatuSuro 01:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC) So please if you could leave that citation for 24 hours I should catch it! SatuSuro 02:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Dont let me even start about west coast tasmania or west coast australia (I live in western australia) - I'll never get off talk! SatuSuro 02:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Consider the benefits of the OCLC template

Hello Keesie. I admire the relentless march of your ISBN fixes! Since you have added some OCLC numbers, you might want to consider the Template:OCLC that was invented by User:JesseW, another ISBN-fixer. A typical use would be {{OCLC|48825404}} in the case of the Charles Whitham book, for example. This expands to OCLC 48825404, which gives a clickable OCLC reference that defaults to the 'Libraries' tab in OCLC, rather than the 'Details' tab, which is sometimes blank. If you use it in the 'cite book' template, you can just replace 'id=ISBN XXXXXXXXXX' with 'id={{OCLC|XXXXXX}}. Anyway, it saves typing! EdJohnston 17:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Cannot locate

Moved to User talk:EdJohnston

You might be interested in this. Please know I'm not trying to cause trouble ... :-) ... Keesiewonder 13:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I've posted again on Ekotkie's page. I've gotten a bit frustrated with seeing the messy "cannot locate" on article pages when I am subsequently able to locate the correct ISBN on my first or second try. Sure, I cannot clean up 30 bad ISBNs in an hour. I prefer to take the time and really, really get it right. Oh well. I'll clean them up, eventually, if they remain tagged as bad. I won't see them, though, if they're deleted. Regards, Keesiewonder 15:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I see your point about LOSING the SmackBot-marked entries from the system in favor of the 'cannot locate' indicators. My guess is that EdK's suggestion would ultimately result in a 'confirmed bad' template or some such, worded in a more politically appealing way. There is a school of thought (advocated by User:Cleduc for example) that since the bad ISBNs may still be able to retrieve some results on the web and on bookstores, we are hurting our readers by ignoring and neglecting them. So such a template would state 'confirmed bad, but still useful'. (Sorry I can't exert my political brain to find a more pleasant way of describing the situation). So my vote would be to KEEP all the originally SmackBot-marked entries in CAT:INVALID regardless of any 'cannot locates' that might be added to the visible text. Unfortunately then we would have TWO statuses of badness, the never-visited badness and the visited-once-but-not-fixed badness. This is not good for the maintainers.

I'll correspond further with EdK on this. EdJohnston 00:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Guys -- There's certainly no hard feelings on my account; we're a team, as I see it. We're amidst a massive collaborative effort here, and there are rarely 100% right answers. No worries, please! :-)
A bit of a personal story that may back up my perspective at bit: About 6 months ago, I didn't even really know Misplaced Pages existed. But, I started hearing about it everywhere. I recently enrolled in an online Master's degree program, after being out of school for many years. The course I had over the summer was "just" a writing class; the instructor insisted that we were not to use Misplaced Pages for anything we submitted to her. She emphasized scholarly resources, i.e. peer reviewed journals only. So something as oft over my head as Scientific American could not appear in anything we submitted. It was a great class, and I learned a lot. This fall I took a molecular biology class. The instructor was much less strict on where we got our sources (even though the first class was supposed to prepare me for writing well in the second), so, students quickly slipped in to essentially using Misplaced Pages for everything. Well, this drove me wild, having just finished the writing class. My message was perhaps quietly appreciated by the professor, but as far as I could tell, my student colleagues just didn't get it. They had no qualms about writing about deep scientific topics, using only WP for their source, even though WP can be edited by anyone (no, this does not count as a scholarly definition of peer reviewed, in my opinion), and even though the moment they copied and pasted from WP may be a moment when it was filled with "garbage." Fortunately for me, I managed to turn this around in my mind - I adopted an 'if I cannot beat them, join them' attitude and started editing on WP. So far, it has been a gratifying experience.
What's my point? Well, if I pull up an article as a student researcher, and see "can't find ISBN" in the footnotes or reference list, and see a tag at the bottom that says 'articles with invalid ISBNs,' for me, perhaps me only, it dramatically diminishes the integrity I give to the article and its content. (I would have had this feeling when I was in high school too.) Thus, I feel if we do not have a valid ISBN, then we should not display it for the "average" readers eyes. The other parts of the work's citation (author, title, publication year, etc) should still prove adequate for the reader to locate the source if they so choose. Meanwhile, I feel we should retain the problematic ISBN in the wikicode or a database or something so it can be a tool for the sleuths who try to find the correct ISBN or an alternate catalog number. Basically, I feel every time we press 'save page' for an article, we ideally should feel it is fit for publication. Yes, there will be mistakes, but do we need to deliberately display them?
Keesiewonder 04:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Cannot Find Tags

I have just finished removing all (cannot find) tags from CAT:INVALID pages, A,B,C,D, and that small part of E that I have just started working on. Those were the only ones I worked on. Any use of a tag that I used was to note the absence of a correct ISBN was only intended to flag this error to a user who was looking for a particular reference and might attempt to use one that was in error. It was not to cause heartburn as to the quality of the pages product or the author of the page. I seriously doubt that a typical user will go into edit mode to verify the accuracy of an ISBN, thus, I elevated the comment to the visible area for all to see. This was intended to be a short term solution and would allow others to use additional resources to find and correct the defective ISBN. I am currently using 6 different tools to search out ISBN's. In all honesty I feel the best answer, at this juncture is to just eliminate the errant ISBN and press on. There are over 2000 ISBN that need to be resolved. Let the user seek out his/her own ISBN, if one is even needed. I would rather give the readership an accurate title and author's name then to give them a bogus ISBN.Ekotkie 06:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine ... I feel we're all essentially saying the same thing albeit in slightly different ways. Keesiewonder 11:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Head against brick wall

Well, I have a reason for interest in that AfD too, now, because I'm an opponent of the wording "verifiability, not truth", which I fear isn't easily understood by Misplaced Pages novices, and I'm a supporter of the proposed policy Misplaced Pages:Attribution, which would combine Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:No Original Research, and Misplaced Pages:Reliable Sources in one, making it much easier to explain policy to people by a reference to one short, clear page. This AfD is a case in point where it would be useful, in my opinion.

I've just read your experiences and opinions above. I have the same mixed feelings about Misplaced Pages: on the one hand, much of it is utter rubbish; on the other, it has breathtaking potential. The better articles (my favourite article on Misplaced Pages is Rudolf Vrba, which I hold up as a beacon of what Misplaced Pages can achieve. I'm certain it is the best article on him in existence.) When I joined Misplaced Pages, I first just pottered about for months, adding bits here and there to articles: but then I started to feel that it was all just drops in the ocean, and that I had nothing to show for it; so now I concentrate on a small few articles, either copyediting ones by non-English-speaking editors which I think could make featured article, or trying to build something good myself, as with Anton Chekhov (I've got a job seeing the computer for all the tomes about him stacked up in front of me here). If I had any hope for you, it would be that you aim your best work at potentially high-quality articles, where it won't go to waste. In fact, most top-quality editors find ISBN work tedious, I suspect, and would be delighted with your assistance. What I like about you is that you do your thing in a hand-crafted way; good editors particlualrly hate it when they are jumped on by impersonal bots and tagging sprees (one of our best editors has recently been frustrated into leaving over that sort of thing), but I'm sure they would warm to your human touch. qp10qp 17:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Note to self re OPAC in India ->

I realize that your posting asks no question, but I tried to follow up anyway. I opened the link you provided, but in a few random trials, looking for (1) a web site that would respond, (2) an OPAC search screen, (3) all books by anyone named 'Markar', I didn't have any luck. I've gone from thinking that there are no OPACs there, to believing that the search might be worthwhile, though lengthy. EdJohnston 20:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi EdJ! I'm losing the train of thought a bit here ... sorry ... Who is Markar? I would have expected you to mention one of the names in Thakur Sher Singh Parmar. If you've been following all my posts everywhere relating to this topic, my personal/work colleague checked out the Hindi Misplaced Pages, and didn't find anything on this chap ... How much longer till the AfD closes? Keesiewonder 21:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the 'brain fault'. I ought to have searched for 'Parmar', per the AfD, which has already closed, with a comment by the deleting administrator about the 'hilarious content' which is not entirely unjustified, but perhaps unkind. I'm impressed that you have ways of searching the Hindi Misplaced Pages. After this was all done, I asked myself whether WP might already have featured articles about Indian topics that we could ask people to go and look it when they wish to write about that area, who want to know what to aspire to which still meets WP standards. I confess that I did look at your contribution history, and in that way came across the AfD, and since I used to participate more in AfD debates, I am irresistibly drawn in to anything interesting. EdJohnston 23:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting history (it's not illegal to store this, is it?)
EdJ, No need to confess, or at least you shouldn't feel bad, about perusing my or anyone else's contributions list. ! Early on in this particular AfD, I was curious about the Hindi WP. Today, when I took a break from work to check the discussion, and realized I had 1-2 people in my workplace who might know about Parmar, or at the very least could read Hindi, I just had to ask. You're a mathy person, right? If I remember correctly from your user page? My undergraduate degree is in math and economics. I don't remember the details (I bet you do!) but in a combinatorics class, I remember the professor displaying an example of ... it takes only some very small number of connections to connect any two people in the world ... I don't remember the proof or the the number of connections, but it was something like 5. So, if true, then there would only be, say, 5 connections between me and Parmar. With networking, we ought to be able to accomplish that pretty easily. Thanks for your correspondence. Keesiewonder 00:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Martin Luther Page

Keesiewonder, thanks for sharing my concern about "Slim Virgin" and this person's unilateral edits. I've done a google search on this person and researched this person's history on Misplaced Pages and let's just say that we have in this person a notoriously flagrant violatoer of Misplaced Pages policies, and, frankly, a Misplaced Pages bully. The only way to deal with this king of thuggery is simply to keep reverting this person's edits. If you and I do this every day this person may lose interest and go away, but, on the other hand, "she" and I put "she" in quotes for I've learned there is every reason to believe this person is not a "she" at all, may call in her other allies on these Jewish POV issues and they will cause problems. But if you want, you and I and anyone else who share our concerns can just keep reverting this person's vandalism on the Luther page. Johann Friedrich 11:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm. Ok, let's see if there's a politically correct way a la Misplaced Pages to deal with this. I'm relatively new, as I said. And, by the looks of your empty user page, empty talk page, and contribution list that began less than 8 hours ago, you look even newer to me. Just an observation; I realize you may have other accounts with much longer histories. Anyway, if what you're telling me is true, then the bulk of users on WP would probably join forces with you and/or us and the end result may be that at a minimum, administrator privileges, for example, may be taken away temporarily. My life experience tells me that getting in to a revert war in hopes that we win is probably not going to have the intended effects we seek.
Please don't get me wrong; I am quite proficient at causing a tremendous amount of effective trouble ... but ... do not like to be a troublemaker ... Nor do I feel that people who know me well see that as my purpose in life. My instincts tell me to try to proceed with the information you have offered me in a 'right' way, rather than just responding in a manner that may be perceived as responding in kind.
I expect other users are going to quickly see this part of my talk page and may offer some advice on how to proceed. May I also suggest that you and I, in all our spare time (HA!), figure out how to proceed with the existing policies on WP? For me, that means locating and reading about what options undoubtedly already exist for dealing with a situation such as this one involving an administrator. I realize that being an admim has perhaps little to do with the ML article, but, perhaps more than a revert war, it is something that SV would notice in a broader way. Thanks for your correspondence, I assure you I am female!, and if you prefer, you may email me at the link to the left. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 11:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Since there was a request for advice, I can't hold back my own two cents here. Without even looking at the ML article, and considering just your comment here, I'm assuming you're in a potential edit war with a person who happens to be an administrator. There are various procedural remedies but they are kind of slow. If there's no claim the administrator has abused his powers, then IMHO it's a plain old edit war among equals in which WP:RFC (Requests for comment) can be considered. Another idea is to find a 'parent project' for the ML page, and you could post there a specific question, asking those editors to look at the page and offer advice. I know this has often been done with positive results in the math and physics projects. Since this could be a 'religious war' kind of deal, you could look through past AfDs in which religious issues have been discussed, and ask one or more of the closing administrators (or AfD proponents, or just anybody) for advice. If a bunch of local editors have got into a weird state, bringing in new observers can help. EdJohnston 03:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Got your update on my talk page. Since you pointed me to the thread at ML, I sympathize with the struggle, but it seems you may no longer be the coolest head there (though you were until recently). EdJohnston 03:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

ISBNs and ASINs

A's are down to two entries now. I've created {{ASIN}}

- although I don't really like using ASINs

Rich Farmbrough, 12:50 4 January 2007 (GMT).

Sure , i'll try

Sure i'll try to find any citations ISBN if possible.Anyway the page has already been deleted. We can move on to some other page. Amita karpe 16:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Info on the ISBN-fixing activity now on my user page

Hello Keesie. Please take a look at the new version of my user page where I tried to summarize the ISBN-fixing activity. Let me know if I missed out on some useful bit of advice for newcomers. So far, there has not been a real project for this work, but it wouldn't hurt if the effort looked a tiny bit respectable, since our changes are sometimes questioned by people who don't know what it's about or why we're doing it. Anyone who starts fixing ISBNs 'automatically' joins the project, whether they want to or not, it's very democratic. :-) EdJohnston 22:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Looking at this and giving you some kind of feedback is my next WP task today. I'm delighted to be considered part of the project! :-) Keesiewonder 20:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll add things as I think of them ... one by one ...
  1. Excellent idea to keep a log of the number of incorrect ISBNs we're dealing with. For the overly detailed among us, maybe a second number in the log for the number of total articles would be nice too for some perspective.
  2. I would reword this sentence: The full list of articles still to be fixed can be found at: Category:Articles with invalid ISBNs. Perhaps yielding: The current list of articles with one or more ISBNs requiring fixing can be found at: Category:Articles with invalid ISBNs.
  3. Consider not mentioning Misplaced Pages:List of pages with Invalid ISBNs at all. Us "old timers" will get rid of it soon enough. For people seeking a nice project to work on, if this kind of "work" is their thing, there's no point in overwhelming them with two lists. Especially since probably 99% of what is on the List version is either already fixed or is on the Category version.
  4. If you could find out what kind of schedule SmackBot is on, i.e. frequency of run, does it check all of the English Misplaced Pages during each run, etc., that'd be great, or at least something I personally would find helpful/useful/interesting.
  5. However there are relatively few of those numbers in Misplaced Pages. -> There are relatively few ISSN fixers? There are relatively few ISSNs needing fixing?
  6. FWIW, my personal preference, most to least, is ISBN, OCLC, LCCN, ASIN ... i.e. reverse the last two.
  7. Maybe try drafting a guideline's section. It could include things like
  • Only include an ASIN if you cannot find a valid one of the other three cataloging numbers.
  • Don't worry if you don't know the 'proper' placement of the dashes since an auto-something-or-other will come along to fix it (eventually).
  • If you start with a page with an ISBN tagged as being in error, and need to supersede it with, say, an OCLC, consider leaving a courteous message on the article's talk page explaining what happened and leave the invalid ISBN visible inside html code. (An example of this will be necessary so it remains visible to editors and invisible to readers.) You may also want to leave a copy of the original citation with the "bad" ISBN on the talk page.
  • If you're really stuck, move on to the next ISBN in error; if you don't like to leave things unfinished, make an effort to get help from people who may be able to help such as the frequent contributors to the article or the article's talk page, relevant portals, forums outside of Misplaced Pages, other ISBN fixers on Misplaced Pages, etc. Concise clues from your seemingly unsuccessful findings are most welcome within the html code written above. If you need to be more verbose about the situation, use the article's talk page.
  • Be especially careful when editing articles with complicated reference list structures such as 75 in text citations.
  • Be certain to do what you can to maintain the existing citation style in the article. If the article is using APA, stick with APA. If the article is using CMS, stick with CMS. If there is no citation style, or it is a mess, tactfully consider tidying things up by converting to citation templates, alphabetizing lists, etc. This is completely optional, since your primary intent is probably to clean up the "bad" ISBNs.
  • Expect that there will be articles where the editors most familiar with the material will want to continue listing the ISBN, even if it is "bad." This is okay. A possible compromise may be to list the ISBN as I S B N since it appears that SmackBot does not identify bad I S B Ns, only bad ISBNs.
  • It is ok to end up deleting an ISBN entirely, yielding a book citation that is just author, title, publication date ... or whatever the article editors want. It is probably best to communicate this on the talk page over at least a couple days ... i.e. try not to delete the ISBN in one sitting. Come back another day, try to find it again, correspond with those who may care about the article content, and, if all else fails, eliminate the ISBN, and leave a trail on the talk page regarding what happened.
8. I made a list of tools I like using when doing ISBN work. You can find it on my user page, and, I'll put it here for you as well.
Tools to help:

Ok -- That's my first draft pass thinking about this. Hope you're not sorry you asked. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 21:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Winston Olde English Bulldogge

I picked up your name from the Wiki dog project page, would you please chime in on this Winston Olde English Bulldogge debate and cast a vote. thank you Headphonos 02:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You can vote to Overturn at the link provided above, and please state your reasons. Thank you. Headphonos 02:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
In addition, they have deletion votes for the Wilkinson Bulldog and Olde English Bulldogge Headphonos 03:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

For working with this editor. I'm backing out of the discussion, because I'm not as knowledgable as you are on it. The content of the article in question (now that I've read it on the mirror site), was gorgeously written and fascinating to me. I had a pure-bred Olde English Sheepdog as a child, so that's my "dog in the race" (lol).

There's got to be something he wants to do - I hate to see an editor like this so discouraged. It would truly suck if my first article got deleted. He also writes far better than myself. On a side note, I'm really hoping that the extinct breeds are covered more on Misplaced Pages some day. I find the topic of extinct animals and plants fascinating, but I also understand why they aren't covered right now. Sincerely, Nina Odell 14:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I probably should have clarified that I'm not knowledgeable at all. I just advocate for new users getting into the appropriate Wikiproject or projects that fit their interests. Headphonos posted his message on Jimbo Wales talk page, which I patrol occasionally (until I'm thoroughly annoyed, then I remove it - lol) so I thought I'd help him out. But really, this is our fork in the road. I do want to say I think you're a fine member of Misplaced Pages, and I'm glad our paths crossed. I appreciate your kindness and civility. Sincerely, Nina Odell 23:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I had forgotten all about

the Hitler Book Incident. it was one of the the early times when I realized that I was going to make my own way through wikipedia and stay off other folks turf. My addition to the hitler book list was deleted because I used a different format than someone there thought I should have used. When I find something like that I change it rather than deleting it, but I figured that I'd just back out. Thanks for the ISBN link, I'll check it out. I post a lot of book references because I'm a book person, but I never have included the ISBN. By the way, I have a puli but have never looked it up on wikipedia. Let's see what this link brings. Carptrash 15:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Bulldogs

Personally, I need to understand the distinction between extinction and recreation of a breed better. If I remember correctly, the article that was deleted was about a recreation effort (Winston Olde English Bulldogge). Before I champion for the breed and the breed's article, I need to be absolutely certain it is not akin to something like the Keesiwonder's Olde English Bulldogge, for example. Even if 30 people have one of these dogs in 10 different countries, that still does not immediately mean to me that WP should have an article about them.

(The following note was copied by Keesiewonder from another user's talk page since they were not really part of the dog content part of the conversation.)

Hello Keesiewonder, does the Wilkinson Bulldog article have enough external links and reference book citations for you to vote to "keep"? If not, then it reaffirms my conversation with Anon that hundreds of additional articles on the List of dog breeds can be successfully deleted. IMHO rare and extinct breeds should be allowed at wikipedia not only the one's recognized by the major Category:Kennel clubs and/or the FCI. The establisment of organizations such as ARBA or the ARF recognize these issues. If members of the Wiki dog project aren't online with these statements, then the project is doomed to be dramatically downsized, with some editors, myself included calling it a wiki failure. In regard to the Old Winston Bulldogge article that was deleted by an adminstrator without even a vote being called here is nice piece of history on the breed OWB. I like the aluminum street sign Winston Olde English Bulldogge STREET SIGN best myself -:) Headphonos 15:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Headphonos. My approach with this is to do one thing at a time. Right now, I am focused on getting the speedy delete of Winston Olde English Bulldogge overturned. Regardless of what I might say in an AfD on that article, I do not like the fact that from what I can tell, it was speedy deleted inappropriately. I am interested in this issue in part because I want to better understand the "powers" and "privileges" of admins. Most of my books are in storage right now, which is very frustrating for me. So, I just came back from a trip to a local Borders. One book I bought was an encyclopedia-like book on dogs. Stay tuned, keep the faith, and be patient! :-) Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 20:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, I tagged a comment of my own on to the original note I saw from you about the 1800 breeds that would have to be deleted if ... I asked for the list in good faith. You could email it to me, also in good faith. Keesiewonder 20:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok ... one thing that needs to be straightened out is if you would like to see some changes implemented at either of the two major dog projects at Misplaced Pages, your best approach would be to contact them directly on their project pages. You may certainly say that you and I have corresponded. But, I do not want to try to represent the project in full on individual user talk pages. Let's move this conversation to one or both of the dog related projects, if you feel there are some serious changes that should be made. I am probably one of the most recent members of each project, so to single me out as the one to talk with may not be the best approach.

Also, you may want to be careful about implying that the project members are not on board with certain issues and/or statements. Especially if you have not been participating on the project talk pages. (I don't know whether you have, or have not.) But when I first read your notes, I felt like you were making all kinds of assumptions that I hadn't heard about or seen substantiation for ... at least not yet. It is a pretty loaded statement, isn't it, to project that the dog projects are doomed to be downsized and deemed a wiki-failure if they don't do what you are suggesting? How long have you been a editor on Misplaced Pages? How long have you worked with the dog project members? Do you think that even if several dog project editors were willing to work with you on your visions for the projects that significant changes like an overhaul of dog related categories would happen within, say, even a week's time? Let's assume good faith here, all the way around, and find a way to work together, please. I have seen some good points in some of your posts, and would be more than happy to try to flush them out with you. But, we need to collaborate. Keesiewonder 00:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Q: does the Wilkinson Bulldog article have enough external links and reference book citations for you to vote to "keep"?
A: For me, it is not about the number of external links and/or book citations. Not quantity, but quality. These two may be wonderful; I don't have them on my desk, but since they are easy to find in the places I like to check, they seem fine. I would like to see some additional ones from a different publisher. Also, while there are two books listed at the end of the article, not a single statement is cited within the article. If you'd like, I could pass through it lending my opinion on where a citation is necessary. Keesiewonder 00:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Statement: If not, then it reaffirms my conversation with Anon that hundreds of additional articles on the List of dog breeds can be successfully deleted.

Response: Please don't try to bully me in to an answer one way or another. I assure you I will consider our topic carefully, but, if not allowed to think for and to express myself on the issue you brought to my attention, then, we may not work well together. Also, I would like to know what the 1,800 articles are that you feel violate current policy per the dog projects on Misplaced Pages. I have asked for this multiple times (but only today, I know), but, have yet to receive clarification from you on this. I'll be patient, but will take notice if you don't respond within, say, a week, or, if I see you posting lots of material, but not responding to what I have asked.

Statement: IMHO rare and extinct breeds should be allowed at wikipedia.

Response: That sounds fair. Can you give me, say, 6 significant and completely different examples where you see this has not happened?

Statement: Keesiewonder will be the first to admin she is confused about all the different kinds of Bulldogs. When she is asked about Bulldog A, and provides answers pertaining to Bulldog A, questions come back about "Bulldog B", "Bulldog C" and "A Bulldog that Sounds like Bulldog A but Might Not Always be Bulldog A." Could you make a nice list for me of what is going on here? Here's what I've seen, just on WP. How are all of these related? Which ones are equivalent, if any?

List of Bulldog Breeds on Misplaced Pages

Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog
American Bulldog
Australian Bulldog
Aylestone Bulldog
Bulldog, British Bulldog
Bull and Terrier
Bullenbeisser
British Bulldogge
Continental Bulldog
Dorset Old Tyme Bulldog
English Bulldog
French Bulldog
Old English Bulldog
Old Winston Bulldogge
Olde English Bulldogge
Olde Englishe Bulldogge
Toy Bulldog
Renaissance Bulldog
Renascence Bulldogge
Victorian Bulldog
Wilkinson Bulldog
Winston Olde English Bulldogge
WInston Olde English Bulldogge

Guideline draft needed

Hi Keesie, thanks for your very thorough review of my notes on ISBN-fixing! Since you would like there to be a guidelines document, do you want to start writing one? For instance, you could create it as a subpage under User:Keesiewonder, and I could add a link to it from the other document. EdJohnston 03:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Certainly; I'll let you know when it's ready. Keesiewonder 13:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Voting thing

Ok, thanks for the note and correction. I appreciate your effort at the Martin Luther page. --MPerel 19:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Judeophobia

  • Very few academic sources will refer to persecution of Jews until the 1800's as anti-Semitism, though once you get into Christian Europe you will find more examples. In ancient history however, and Jews in Muslim lands, much more often it will simply be referred to as "persecution" as the Jews weren't being targeted any more than any other group (again until the rise of Christianity). -- Chabuk 22:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, yes, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you! Might there be good reasons, then, to have an article on Judeophobia. It seems like you have articulated a clear distinction between Judeophobia and anti-Semitism; yet the former redirects to the latter in WP.
Another thing I've been trying to form an opinion on is why only one person is mentioned in WP' anti-Judaism category - i.e. a category for one person, one sub-category, and one article. Of course and unfortunately anti-Judaism exists. But is there only one person for all of time who can be assigned to that category? I've struggled with this some on the talk page at the Martin Luther article; you may have already noticed it. If you can help me think through this one ... I'd greatly appreciate it. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 22:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Keesie

A lone voice in the wilderness...

I hate to say it, lady, but I think you might have seen how inactive the projects are. Very few people will respond to anything, as most of them are primarily interested in their own favorite breeds, and know little if anything about anything else. The one I knew who might have helped, Blufawn, understandably begged off because of what happened to the Tamaskan Dog article, although she did respond to my talk page. I did however change my own opinion after her comment accordingly. Also, unfortunately, few people have the ready access to information that you do, and often can't respond with any real knowledge about the subject. Right now, you are probably carrying a lot of the dog work on your own shoulders, and I sincerely wish we could get others to help more often. I wish it were otherwise, but... Also, we can be hopeful and say that they are all really, really, really busy today. I know I'm tied up elsewhere right now, but I will try to respond when I know something about the subject myself. Unfortunately, I regret to say, that really ain't that often. I know that this is probably very small consolation, but I just wanted you to know that someone did see your notices. Badbilltucker 00:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You can always try "spamming" (whatever, contacting) each individual member on their talk pages, or via email. That's what I intend to do with Sexuality and Sexology, as well as Wikiproject Psychology:). NinaOdell | Talk 15:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both for your perspective. Mass mailing/contacting is really not my style. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. I believe in my "work" here and my message ... eventually it'll all come together. Regards, Keesiewonder 00:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Updated ISBN_fixing page

Hello Keesiewonder. I updated User:EdJohnston/ISBN_fixing in response to your suggestions. I think keeping the List is still worthwhile, because it's a means of communication about difficult numbers. If you do decide to write up your proposed Guidelines, I'll link to that as well. Can you put the list of Tools on the same page, or do you prefer that we link to your User page for those? EdJohnston 16:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I will do a guidelines and tools document draft; haven't forgotten; just too busy in real life. Keesiewonder 00:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)