Talk:Yom Kippur War - Misplaced Pages

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To-do list for Yom Kippur War: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2024-06-06

Reanalyze the extent to which this conflict was, in fact, a victory for Egypt. (By forcing peace through a position of power Egypt achieved its primary objective of regaining control of the Sinai (this is a backwards read of the reality. egypt lost its bargaining position by its loss of its patron the soviet union, and was instead forced to negotiate for the sinai and recognize Israel. this meant a major loss of prestige and it's ejection from the arab league)).

Point to peace initiatives:
- From Sadat ~~in 1971~~ and in February 1973 - They both were rejected by Golda Meir's government ~~leaving no choice to the Egyptians to get in the war~~.
- From Golda: On 28 February 1973, during a visit in Washington, Golda agreed with Henry Kissinger's peace proposal based on "security versus sovereignty" : Israel would accept Egyptian sovereignty over all Sinai, while Egypt would accept Israeli presence in some of Sinai strategic positions.; The Rabin Memoirs Sadat refused this proposal.

Yitzhak Rabin (1996). The Rabin Memoirs. University of California Press. p. 215. ISBN 978-0-520-20766-0. security versus sovereignty"...Israel would have to accept Egyptian sovereignty over all the Sinai, while Egypt ,in turn, would have to accept Israeli military presence in certain strategic positions.
P.R. Kumaraswamy (11 January 2013). Revisiting the Yom Kippur War. Routledge. pp. 105–. ISBN 978-1-136-32895-4.

Priority 1 (top)

Archives

Archive 1 - Includes discussion of whether the article title is POV, and a poll concerning page move to Arab-Israeli conflict of October 6–October 24, 1973. Outcome of poll was 0/15/1.
Archive 2 - Includes discussion of whether the article title is POV, and a poll concerning page move to 1973 Arab-Israeli War. Outcome of poll was 8/30/0.
Archive 3 - Includes discussion of whether the article title (and the article itself) is POV, casus belli, number of troops, and various other things.
Archive 4 - June - October 2009.
Archive 5 - October 2009 - April 2010.
Archive 6 - 2010 - 2013
Archive 7 - 2013 - present

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This Talk:Yom Kippur War has been mentioned by a media organization:

Hillel Frisch (10 October 2018). "THE 1973 WAR: COMPARING THE HEBREW AND ARABIC WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES". Jerusalem Post.

big bias

There is a big bias on this page that favors the Israeli point of view, just as the majority of sources are Jews or Zionists who support Israel. The first notable prejudice is the number of participating forces, which I mentioned as a million Arabs against 200,000 Israelis. In fact, this is a comprehensive number of all Arab armies. Actually, soldiers how foughg in battles do not exceed 300,000, and there are minimizing Israeli losses. Arab sources are: from 9,000 to 10,000 dead and 20,000 wounded. check:Edgar O'Ballance. No Victor, No Vanquished. p. 265 and 30 حديث المشير أحمد إسماعيل حول بعض جوانب حرب أكتوبر بصحيفة الأهرام". موسوعة المقاتل. 14-10-1974. مؤرشف من الأصل في 6 نوفمبر 2016. اطلع عليه بتاريخ 05 نوفمبر 2016. Hyi9900 (talk) 21:24, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes I also heard in a documentary that Israeli dead were around 9,000 and not 2800 stated in this Misplaced Pages page Nlivataye (talk) 09:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 November 2020

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Ottomanempire192 (talk) 15:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Decisive Egyptian Military Victory

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Ed talk! 15:04, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 December 2020

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2603:6011:DE00:E345:4414:3070:5F98:47AF (talk) 15:40, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

result is egypt win isreal and they return sini

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:15, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 December 2020

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As a wikipedia contributer, I noticed a lot of uprising on social media about how one-sided this specific article was against Egypt when it comes to 'Result of War'

The article result contradicts the two other wikipedia articles on this war, which are much more nutreal. A lot more accurate version that I have seen is in (https://simple.wikipedia.org/Yom_Kippur_War), (https://ar.wikipedia.org/%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A8_%D8%A3%D9%83%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%B1) as well as the Egyptian victory side of the war entirely mentioned in ( https://en.wikipedia.org/Operation_Badr_(1973) ), claiming Yom Kippur War as an Israeli victory is false information since Israel was victorious on the Syrian front but not on the Egyptian front. It was a stalemate in Sinai which led to the agreement between both countries, both Arabs and Israel claimed victory though no military victory can be announced for the entireirty of Yom Kippur/October War.

Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a nutreal encyclopedia, when it comes to war simply, using Israeli sources and books only for declaration of the winner is not okay and has offended loads of people online, please check my sources and consider the following changes:

Under the Infobox, 'Result':

Change "Israeli military victory" to "Egyptian victory on the Egyptian front and Israeli victory on the Syrian front"

Change/Add "1979 Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty"

The article also condradicts itself as I quote from the article "The war began with a massive and successful Egyptian crossing of the Suez Canal. Egyptian forces crossed the cease-fire lines, then advanced virtually unopposed into the Sinai Peninsula. After three days, Israel had mobilized most of its forces and halted the Egyptian offensive, resulting in a military stalemate." It was an Egyptian victory on the Egyptian front, Israeli victory on the Syrian front. Therefore the overall result of the war in the infobox should not be "Israeli victory". Very biased and misleading.

Thank you. Ziad Rashad (talk) 19:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC) Ed6767 Jonesey95

References

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Please also find better reliable sources. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 14:15, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, sure thing. My point is simple: if it wasn't for the war then Sinai would have remained an Israeli land to this day. Since Egyptians had an upperhand in the war they managed to get a deal and reclaim Sinai after the attacks, Syria on the other hand had lost the war and that's why Golan Heights are still under Israeli occupation to this day. When Egyptian forces crossed to Sinai and got circled by Israelis, Soviet Union threatned to send troops for Egypt's aid and after that the US threatened with nuclear bombs. Therefore, it was simply a stalemate but Egypt had the upperhand in the negotiations since Sinai was already breached. (the attack was only halted by Israel until Russia and USA interfered)

Summary: Egyptians won the peace treaty by crossing Sinai and leaving no option other than a treaty to take the rest of Sinai without more loss of lives. And Syrians have lost the Golan Heights, to this day it is occupied by Israel.

The 'Result' inside the 'infobox' seems to account for Israel's win against Syria only. So once again, please change "Israeli Military victory" to "Egyptian victory on the Egyptian front and Israeli victory on the Syrian front"

I also forgot to mention that it is very biased to use only Israeli and American sources for the article, I could mention 30 Arab or Soviet sources that are reliable in the Arab world and all of them talk about Egypt's victory and stalemate in Sinai. But I won't do that, I'll link American and Israeli sources that say the same thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ziad Rashad (talk • contribs) 02:16, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Sources:

CIA https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/international-relations/arab-israeli-war/nixon-arab-isaeli-war.pdf

BBC documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icaeBubBbDg

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/dr/97192.htm

"No Victor, No Vanquished" Edgar O'Ballance, pg. 161 & 162 https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://www.hativa14.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Edgar_Oballance.pdf

"The truth is that the October War, militarily speaking, was a standoff. Even though the Egyptians gained some 300 square miles of Israeli-held Sinai on the east bank of the canal, the Syrians lost almost the same amount of terrain in the north. Politically speaking, the war drastically changed the situation in the Middle East from the almost crystallised one of No Peace, No War, to one of No Victor, No Vanquished."

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reports/2006/R1864.pdf

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/u-s-state-department-summary-of-the-yom-kippur-war

Moreover, the first battle of the war (https://en.wikipedia.org/Operation_Badr) was a decisive Egyptian victory.

Last two major battles of the war before United States ceasefire (https://en.wikipedia.org/Battle_of_Ismailia) and (https://en.wikipedia.org/Battle_of_Suez) were also both an Egyptian victory.

Ziad Rashad (talk) 02:01, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Not done: @Ziad Rashad:, repeating your argument is not "establishing a consensus". You need to open a separate section here, possibly as a Request for Comments, that will establish (or not) that there is a substantial agreement among interested editors that the proposed changes are necessary and comply with the Core Content Policies. I suggest reading this instruction section and this essay for advice on how to go about creating this discussion. I hope that helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:55, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

- Oh alright, just created an Rfc. Thank you for making it clear! Ziad Rashad (talk) 17:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Chaim Herzog and Israeli propaganda

Herzog tells us that during the war the Arabs lost 334 aircraft in air-to air combat, i quote from the page "334 of these aircraft were shot down by the Israeli Air Force in air-to-air combat for the loss of only five Israeli planes"

So, in air-to-air combat Israel only lost 5 aircraft, and shot down 334 Arab aircraft... (those were Mig-21s, Mirages VS F4 Phantoms and Mirages, it wasn't F-22 raptor vs Mig21, those were close range engagements)

What i want to say is, is this a joke? How long will it take for us to fix this reference bias in all Arab-Israeli wars, especially the Yom Kippur? It's so disgustingly biased it doesn't even make sense, it's actually hilarious, but these 'historians' or 'authors' (actually the former president of Israel himself and a military general) are cited here and supposed to be credible and unbiased!! It completely ignores things we know took place such as "The Air Battle of Mansoura" and the repeated and expected (failed) attempts by Israel to destroy Egyptian airbases, but of course your credible historians don't mention this (and they probably deny any attempts by Israel to destroy Egyptian airbases) because they get their "accurate, credible historical information" from Israeli sources (like Chaim Herzog), be it Israeli authors, historians, or Israeli military/government. But the Egyptian/Soviet sources are yikes! biased! they exaggerate! which is basically the exaggerated information we are getting from the Israeli sources (and American historians get their info from Israeli sources). The Egyptians unfortunately failed to accomplish what Israel did by reaching out to the world and sharing their POV of events.

But yeah, let's spread the Israeli propaganda on Misplaced Pages, they are god-like pilots and god-like warriors.Wasteland1 (talk) 05:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't rely on first-party sources like Herzog. However, the way forward is to bring high quality independent sources. Do you have some in mind? Zero 05:07, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately It's not possible to provide independent sources, because the sources have to either get the information from Egyptian or Israeli sources, Israel succeeded and worked on sharing their POV with the world (with the help of the US), and it's the POV we see here on Wiki from Israeli and American historians/authors/government and others, Egypt failed the history war. What i find to be possible is sharing both POVs (or claims) of the events (everything) with or without excluding bits of information that seem exaggerated or don't make sense according to the capabilities at the time (such as Herzog's claims, that's disgusting). American sources for example accept the Israeli exaggerations as 'facts' or 'possible', but they denounce the Egyptian/Soviet claims calling it propaganda or flat out call them liars. Both should be looked at as liars equally (the US knows Israel best, take the USS Liberty incident for example, but they still covered it up to not embarrass Israel even when it directly affected them) What I'm trying to say is, of course we know and expect the US bias towards Israel, and towards their military equipment, etc...This is just too complicated tbh.Wasteland1 (talk) 05:48, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Rfc about the result section in the infobox

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In the infobox 'result', shouldn't it be called a stalemate on the Egyptian front and Syrian loss on the Syrian front? As per the article itself mentions. Ziad Rashad (talk) 17:12, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

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