Talk:List of presidents of the United States

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sea Ane (talk | contribs) at 21:21, 3 March 2021 (→RfC on Obama Photo). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 21:21, 3 March 2021 by Sea Ane (talk | contribs) (→RfC on Obama Photo)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

List of presidents of the United States (final version) received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which on 3 March 2021 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of presidents of the United States article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

List of presidents of the United States is a former featured list. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page and why it was removed. If it has improved again to featured list standard, you may renominate the article to become a featured list.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 15, 2005	Featured list candidate	Promoted
October 30, 2008	Featured list removal candidate	Demoted
June 26, 2009	Featured list candidate	Not promoted

Current status: Former featured list

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Biography: Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as High-importance).

Lists High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Politics: American Top‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Top-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

United States: Presidents / Government High‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject United States Presidents (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as Top-importance).

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2016 and 2020.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 7 times. The weeks in which this happened:

view · edit Frequently asked questions

This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.
Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.

To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.

General Concerns and Questions Q1: John Hanson was actually the first president. A1: John Hanson was the first President of the Continental Congress to serve a term under the Articles of Confederation. This office is different from President of the United States, which was only created after the US Constitution took effect in 1789.

Related Talk discussions: , , , ,

Q2: __________ was acting president for a short time, why isn't he on the list? A2: A period during which a vice-president or other person temporarily becomes Acting President under the Twenty-fifth Amendment is not a presidency, because the president remains in office during such a period.

Related Talk discussions: , ,

Q3: Grover Cleveland is listed twice, William McKinley was actually the 24th president. A3: Cleveland served two non-consecutive terms, so while McKinley was in fact the 24th person to serve as president, Cleveland was both the 22nd and 24th president. Or another way: the next president after Benjamin Harrison was the 24th president. It should also be noted that almost all reference materials enumerate Cleveland in this way.

Related Talk discussions: , , ,

Q4: Harry Truman's middle name was "S". Since it's not an initial, it should not have the period after it. A4: Harry Truman's middle name was in fact S; however, most reference materials still use the period. Truman himself signed his own name as "Harry S. Truman". Both with or without the period may be regarded as correct.

Related Talk discussions: , , ,

Q5: Democratic is an adjective. Presidents of this party should be listed as the noun, "Democrat". A5: The correct name of the political party is the Democratic Party. In this case, the adjective is used to describe the party, which is what the list is showing. Note that Democrat Party can be seen as an epithet - see Democrat Party (epithet).

Related Talk discussions:

Q6: Please add another column to the list for ___________. A6: Every effort was made to show the most sought-after information in a concise table. Those interested in president lists based on other criteria should see Template:Lists of US Presidents and Vice Presidents.

Related Talk discussions: , , , , , ,

Q7: I have an issue with one of the pictures used. A7: It is recommended that the same picture from the president's individual article infobox be used on this list by default. However, any clear view of the face will work since the pictures are so small. Keep in mind that some images on external sites may be subject to copyright, and therefore difficult to bring into Misplaced Pages. If you have a specific concern about an image, feel free to discuss it here.

Related Talk discussions: , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Obama photo

As has been seen in the edit history the past few days, there is some disagreement over Obama's portrait.

Currently, his first term photo is on the page. This is inconsistent with most of the other photos on the page which are using the photos found on the official White House website (Here: https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/presidents/), which to my knowledge use second-term portraits when available.

I know concerns have been brought up that Obama's second term portrait is too far back and unlike the other images, which are all closely cropped headshots, but this can easily be fixed with cropping.

Can someone point me to a consensus to use Obama's first term portrait, if there is one? Also, what is the required steps to challenge a consensus? Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 04:26, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@Basil the Bat Lord: You posted this 2 weeks ago and there were no replies, meaning no interest and no consensus. You have your answer. Therefore there is no need for your RfC below. It's just a form of badgering/forum-shopping. Along with no consensus for your proposal here, I posted a link to to an already established consensus, in your RfC below. I suggest you strike the RfC and move on to something else. I know you want to help, but this keeps coming up and I think we need a break from these proposals, for stability if anything. JMHO - wolf 07:24, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

@Thewolfchild: How do you change an existing consensus if not via RfC? Genuine question. Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 08:04, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

You've been on WP for awhile now, I don't think you need me to explain that. If you think there is an appetite for a new consensus, despite everything in front you here on this page, then continue with your RfC. Who knows... maybe you'll swing it. - wolf 08:31, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

@Thewolfchild:I was genuinely asking... I'm not as familiar with WP as you seem to think I am. This the first time I've ever opened an RfC on anything. I was under the impression that RfC's are the appropriate way to seek to change existing consensus, is that not the case? Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 00:11, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

And I genuinely answered. But instead of seeking the opinion of a single editor, it's probably better to go by what WP says; for info on RfCs, go here and for info on consensus, go here. Have a nice day - wolf 00:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

45 presidents

Thanks for letting me know this has been discussed, Drdpw, but I cannot find the threads. How is "45 persons who have served as President of the United States" different in meaning from "45 presidents"? The nuance is entirely lost on me. Surtsicna (talk) 18:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Biden is the 45th individual to serve as US president. Why is he numbered as the 46th US president? Because Cleveland is counted as the 22nd & 24th US president, due to his serving non-consecutive terms. If Trump were to run again (in 2024) & win back the White House? He'd be listed as the 45th & 47th US president. GoodDay (talk) 19:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, but that does not answer my question. 45 people who have been president = 45 presidents, right? Surtsicna (talk) 19:13, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

For less familiar readers, I recommend changing it to "45 individuals have been president". GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Because otherwise people might think "45 presidents" = "45 people each following the last one" which is not correct thanks to Cleveland who both followed and preceded the 23rd president. Regards So Why 19:22, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

How does "45 persons have served as President of the United States" make it clear to people that they did not each follow the last one? It means exactly the same thing as "there have been 45 presidents". I am genuinely perplexed. Surtsicna (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Surtsicnac: Looking back, I see now that this topic has only been discussed a couple times over the years; I must have mixed-up talk pages. Mea culpa. The nuance is that there have been 46 presidents of the United States but only 45 persons have served as president. Drdpw (talk) 19:58, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

That does not sound right at all. Cleveland having served two non-consecutive terms (and being counted officially as both the 22nd and 24th president) does not make him two presidents. Do reliable sources really say that Grover Cleveland was two presidents? Surtsicna (talk) 20:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

He was president twice, as the 22nd president and as the 24th president. Drdpw (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I understand, but that does not mean he was two presidents, does it? The only way there could have been 46 presidents is if Cleveland is considered two presidents. Is that not ludicrous? Surtsicna (talk) 20:52, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, while it might sound ludicrous to you, it does mean that he was in essence two presidents. "While Donald Trump will be the 45th president, he will be only the 44th person — the 44th male — to actually hold the job." – Drdpw (talk) 20:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I do hope it sounds ludicrous to you too, and I must take issue with your claim that Cleveland was "in essence two presidents". What kind of essence goes against basic arithmetic? I understand that Trump is conventionally called the 45th president. That is still different from there having been 46 presidents. Do we have sources for the number (not numbering) of presidents? Surtsicna (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Google it; primary and secondary sources will say that, including the incumbent, there have been 46 U.S. presidents. Drdpw (talk) 21:26, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I am Googling but finding little support for the notion in academic literature. Perhaps you could provide a source or two? What I have found are books by constitutional law expert Henry J. Abraham, who in 2008 wrote of "our 43 presidents" and in 1999 of "our 42 presidents". Surtsicna (talk) 21:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

And I just realized that does not help my case. Surtsicna (talk) 21:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I've lost track here. What exactly is being disputed? Including the incumbent, 45 individuals have been US president. GoodDay (talk) 21:49, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Nobody can blame you. What is being disputed is the difference between 45 individuals having been US president and there having been 45 US presidents. Apparently, those are not the same thing. Surtsicna (talk) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I have to agree that they are not the same thing. Cleveland is considered the 22nd and the 24th president. Sources say that Biden is the 46th president. (I.e. including Biden there have been 46 presidents) despite being the 45th person to hold that role. As daft as it sounds, this is what sources often say.
SSSB (talk) 13:25, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

The third sentence of the lead reads; "Since it was established in 1789, the office has been held by 45 people in 46 presidencies.. I think that makes it clear enough, 45 Presidents/ 46 presidencies. Not sure what the debate here is otherwise. - wolf 20:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

That wording was introduced as a result of this discussion. Surtsicna (talk) 23:21, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, didn't see where any changes had been proposed and agreed to. Just figured the word "presidencies" would be helpful with what otherwise was a seemingly endless, circular exchange. - wolf 01:50, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

What was the write up before Biden took office? GoodDay (talk) 23:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Prior to Inauguration Day the sentence read, Since the office was established in 1789, there have been 45 presidencies, while 44 men have served as president. At the start of this discussion—post-Inauguration Day—it read, Since the office was established in 1789, 45 persons have served as President of the United States. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 23:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

How about we got with "Since the office was established in 1789, there have been 46 presidencies, while 45 men have served as president". GoodDay (talk) 23:55, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I like it the way is now, consensus wording that is clear and concise. Drdpw (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

FAQ Q2

Q2 is mainly referencing the myth that Atchison was acting president. But what about HW and Cheney? I think there should be a note next to their names in the VP column saying they acted as president. Example:

Presidency			Party		Election	Vice President
40	January 20, 1981 – January 20, 1989	Ronald Reagan	rowspan=2 style="background-color:Template:Republican Party (United States)/meta/color" \|	Republican	1980	George H. W. Bush
40	January 20, 1981 – January 20, 1989	Ronald Reagan	1984	Republican		George H. W. Bush
43	January 20, 2001 – January 20, 2009	George W. Bush	rowspan=2 style="background-color:Template:Republican Party (United States)/meta/color"\|	Republican	2000	Dick Cheney
43	January 20, 2001 – January 20, 2009	George W. Bush	2004	Republican		Dick Cheney

Presidents are numbered according to uninterrupted periods served by the same person. For example, George Washington served two consecutive terms and is counted as the first president (not the first and second). Upon the resignation of 37th president Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford became the 38th president even though he simply served out the remainder of Nixon's second term and was never elected to the presidency in his own right. Grover Cleveland was both the 22nd president and the 24th president because his two terms were not consecutive. A vice president who temporarily becomes acting president under the Twenty-fifth Amendment to the Constitution is not counted, because the president remains in office during such a period.
Reflects the president's political party at the start of their presidency. Changes during their time in office are noted. Also reflects the vice president's political party unless otherwise noted beside the individual's name.
On July 13, 1985, from 11:28 am to 7:22 pm EDT, George H. W. Bush was acting president while Ronald Reagan underwent colon cancer surgery under anesthesia.
On two occasions, Dick Cheney was acting president while George W. Bush underwent colonoscopies under sedation (June 29, 2002 from 7:09 am to 9:24 am EDT, and July 21, 2007 from 7:16 am to 9:21 am EDT).

--eduardog3000 (talk) 19:07, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

If there is no discussion I will boldly make this change and see how it fares. --eduardog3000 (talk) 17:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I would be inclined to revert such an edit, and would cite a lack of consensus for including detail. The reason why there should not be a note next to Bush's and Cheney's names in the VP column saying they acted as president is because their time as acting president was brief, mere hours, and each occasion passed-bye uneventfully, thus rendering the fact not noteworthy. Drdpw (talk) 19:17, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

You can't expect people to respect such a revert if nobody contributed to the discuss which sought to attempt to find a consensus. I'm sorry, but I just don't find that reasonable. For my part, I didn't join the discussion because I'm not fussed either way.
SSSB (talk) 19:21, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

You are correct, that rash action would have been unreasonable on my part. Drdpw (talk) 19:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that time and eventfulness are disqualifiers for a footnote. I'd say the fact that they acted at all is pertinent information in a list of people who have been in the position. If it were for a significant span it would probably warrant a row on the table, so I think a footnote is fitting for those short uneventful occasions. --eduardog3000 (talk) 20:59, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with the additons. They're just notes, so they don't clutter the table, and all instances of the VPs acting as President are noted and sourced in their BLPs. jmho - wolf 23:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't add such notes here. If anywhere, such notes would be added at the List of vice presidents of the United States. Bush in 1985 & Cheney in 2002, 2007 were not president of the United States, but rather vice president performing the powers & duties of the presidency. GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Prior Office

I see that on 20. jan 2020 the section for Prior Office was removed with the explanation "Whoops bye bye prior office, no one will miss you". I don't see the reason for removing this, and I think it should be added back.

Though I think in cases of a Vice President succeeding to Presidency it should also include their previous elected office before becoming VP.

2001:700:302:11:0:0:0:110 (talk) 11:24, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, for clarification, that edit was 20 Feb (Special:Diff/941739042). Also note that a simiar proposal was made in November 2020. Also note that the column removal was discussed here in Jan 2020.

Personally, I don't see how such a column is necessary or waranted there, given that we actually already have such a list, List of presidents of the United States by other offices held. I'm also not sure what the relevance is of such a column being added here. Prior office is not a condition of presidency, nor does it appear to be something voters pay attention to (Trump had no prior office and still became president over politicians who were significantly more expirenced than him).
SSSB (talk) 11:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

RfC on Obama Photo

Please consider joining the feedback request service.

An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list:

Politics, government, and law

When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

I opened a talk section about the Obama portrait but saw no discussion, so I'm opening an RfC.

All of the portraits listed on this page seem to follow the portraits listed on the official White House presidents list, which is most often the second-term portrait of Presidents who have served a second term (here: https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/presidents/)

Obama's portrait is an exception, his first-term portrait from 2009 is used in the article despite a second-term portrait existing and being used on the White House site and despite all of the presidents around him using their more recent portraits.

Question: Which of these photos should be used for Barack Obama's portrait on this article?

Option A: First term portrait (current).
Option B: Second term portrait.
Option C: Cropped version of second term portrait.

Option A
Option B
Option C

Personally I think Option C is suitable. Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 06:55, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Option D - we go with the already established consensus on images in the list, that includes the current Obama portrait (which would be A). No need for another RfC. (jmho) - wolf 07:12, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Option C. It shows his hair turning gray. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 07:17, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
A or C, we don't see his folded arms, in either of them. GoodDay (talk) 16:29, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
A or C (no preference between the two), the zoom level is consistent with the others.
SSSB (talk) 17:00, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
A only my personal nitpick, but the way that C has cropped out his folded arms, it looks like he's taking a selfie. Unknown Temptation (talk) 19:50, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Question, for other 2-term presidents, which term's portraits have we used for them? — Czello 17:59, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment, don't know about that, but I do beleive that every President has a first term photo. There's something to be said about consistency, it often correlates with stability. - wolf 21:51, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
C second-term portrait is better than first and a cropped view in this case is preferable. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 06:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
C more recent and higher quality. But I find the statement (Obama's portrait is an exception, his first-term portrait from 2009 is used in the article despite a second-term portrait existing and being used on the White House site and despite all of the presidents around him using their more recent portraits.) misleading since Reagan's portrait for example uses his first term one instead of his second. Spy-cicle💥 14:09, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Not C personally I believe that the the United States flag must be visible on a former (or current) President's portrait, wherever present in the actual image. Option C, which is the cropped version of option B, crops out the flag. CX Zoom (talk) 16:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Option C. It has a good resolution and quality.Sea Ane (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

"Former presidents who ran for the presidency" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Former presidents who ran for the presidency. The discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 11#Former presidents who ran for the presidency until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. - CHAMPION 04:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Joe Biden is the current President, not Incumbent

I don't know how to edit yet but can someone please remove Incumbent from Joe Biden's listing as our 46th President? Thank you. Dramaced (talk) 16:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

... why? Incumbent means the current office holder. --Golbez (talk) 17:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

@Dramaced: Wicktionary: incumbent. - wolf 19:01, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Joe Biden's New portrait

Because Joe Biden is the current president now, why don't we have this as his new portrait --Greencarrots98 (talk) 22:56, 12 February 2021 (UTC)Greencarrots98

Because, that media file has been nominated for deletion. Drdpw (talk) 00:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Glitch on presidents list

On the list there is a glitch where the second you scroll down to the 44th president all of the pictures disappear. Not sure why or how this is happening but it is happening. UnderTails63 (talk) 23:12, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

– I did not detect a glitch in the table. Drdpw (talk) 00:32, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

~~Me neither, ftr - wolf 01:20, 13 February 2021 (UTC)~~

I get it to, but only on my mobile browser.
SSSB (talk) 09:19, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

I see it now, (if I'm on my smartphone, I always use desktop mode), but just tried looking at the table in mobile and yep, when you scroll the table, the images disappear when reach the bottom. I have to refresh the page to get them back. File a report to VPT? - wolf 17:30, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

"List of former United States presidents who ran for office after leaving the presidency" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect List of former United States presidents who ran for office after leaving the presidency. The discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 20#List of former United States presidents who ran for office after leaving the presidency until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Mdewman6 (talk) 01:45, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Peer review archived

The peer review has now been archived at Misplaced Pages:Peer review/List of presidents of the United States/archive1. The suggestions all pertain to the lead. I'm not willing to take it on by myself, but I'd very much suggest that the articles' top contributors put it forward at WP:FLC after applying the tweaks (I'd be willing to co-nom). It won't take much work to get this in passing shape, and it's low-hanging fruit for anyone who wants a WP:Million award. {{u|Sdkb}}  18:10, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Categories: