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— 25 September 2006 — 2 November 2006 — 1 January 2007

cotco-islam

it's more of an art :) - crz crztalk 16:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The battle of Karbala

Salam. Can you please tell us about Sunni scholars POV in the Battle of Karbala and help us to improve it. Please look at its talk page first.--Sa.vakilian 15:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

If you can't help us, who do you propose?--Sa.vakilian 17:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your support

Thank you for your support in the RfA on my behalf. It is an honor to have received your expression of confidence. To be chosen as an administrator requires a high level of confidence by a broad section of the community. Although I received a great deal of support, at this time I do not hold the level of confidence required, and the RfA did not pass. It is my wish that I will continue to deserve your confidence. Sincerely, --BostonMA 19:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Manifestations of God

Please stop removing every page in that category, please wait until the disscussion is over. Zazaban 02:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have stopped thank you. Zazaban 02:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hypocrisy in action?

With regards to your latest advise, please take note: I was not the one who initiated my exchange with administrator Kirby, rather it was he who personally derogated me by calling me a "dick." Unless you have given him a warning as well, I will assume your advise will be anything but mere hypocrisy in action and, given the circumstances, cannot and will not abide by the parameters set by this specific guideline.

And regarding the criticisms of Islam, have you anything to say? Given that there has been a paucity of discussion following my responses to you, Kirby and Falcon on the "Discussion Page," I will assume that I have had the last word and will revert to the changes I have laid forth.--Canadia 04:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Kirby is not an administrator. he advised you not to be a WP:DICK, and i wouldn't imagine that forwarding someone to that page can be construed as a personal attack, for obvious reasons. with regards to the dispute, your POV fork suggestion was speedy-deleted. you haven't actually responded to the points, you have merely been reiterating your own along with personal attacks. ITAQALLAH 04:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

In regard to the Criticisms of Islam page, you have yet to respond to my proposition. Please do, as I will take your silence as meaning that I have been given the "green-light" to implement my suggestion. Thanks. --Canadia 03:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

which suggestion are you referring to? do you mean the recreation of a speedy deleted POV-fork? if so.. you're just likely to get in trouble for disruption :|. that i have been away does not validate violation of policy in the slightest, which several editors are objecting to. ITAQALLAH 20:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I've read the speedy deletion policy and NOT ONE criteria should warrant the deletion of the page that I've proposed to create. NOT ONE. Instead of referring me to this speedy deletion policy, maybe you can tell me which criteria I have violated? --Canadia 19:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

perhaps you should look at this. ITAQALLAH 19:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Jazakallahukhairan kaseera

Walaikum Assalam, Thanks for ur message bro, I will try to keep my head cool but there are lot of bias going on on Islam related pages. tc. Mak82hyd 00:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Rafed.net

Following a deletion review Rafed.net has been relisted: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rafed.net (2nd nomination). - brenneman 01:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

Seriously think about why you removed my statements from someone else's talk page. Arrow740 06:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

this kind of deliberate trolling is unacceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages. please refrain from this kind of behaviour in future. thank you. ITAQALLAH 13:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was trolling. That isn't why you deleted it. Think about that.

Regarding the article about Muhammad's slaves, we don't have to include informations from secondary sources that are obviously wrong. I know you like to push your POV, and that's no criticism of you in itself. But please read what the article is saying, and look at the verses they're trying to use as evidence. They are lying. If you disagree maybe you can find me a verse in the Quran that describes slavery as an unacceptable transition period, or one that discusses abolition. Or a verse saying that the only lawful sex that can occur is in marriage (this would contradict the other one). If you can't, how can you include those references? Arrow740 22:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

i am amused that you believe you know my intentions more than i do. the secondary sources are wrong, according to you. unfortunately, you are not an authority on the matter, and in no way can you dismiss those who are. in fact, i think in most cases your understanding of the Qur'an (and Islam in general) is extremely superficial, so it's of very little validity if you remove a well-sourced passage because you deem it to be incorrect. academics such as Schimmel conclude that the Qur'an proposes a practical way of stamping out slavery. not that i care about such opinions but that's just what they say. EoI states that a man may not have intercourse with a female slave who is married: "Co-owners of a female slave may not cohabit with her, nor may a sole owner cohabit with a married female slave." to my knowledge, that is accurate. ITAQALLAH 23:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

If you think the Quran doesn't say that mountains prevent earthquakes then your understanding of the Quran is too deep. Well-sourced or not (the source is not reliable), the statements are clearly wrong. I have asked you repeatedly to simply read what we're arguing about and tell me why it could be true. The Quran does not recognize slavery as an unacceptable transitional period. It also says that you can capture women and then have sex with them, and more generally that you can have sex with slaves. Muhammad and other early Muslims did so. Muhammad slept with one of his wives shortly after he killed her husband. Maybe it was OK because, after all, her husband was dead. Muslim preachers exhort Muslims to give just this treatment to Israeli women these days. The verse being interpreted as saying that it is unlawful to do so simply does not mention law in any way. Arrow740 10:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

i think your last comment exemplifies that comprehension of the shari' sciences (e.g usul al-fiqh) totally eludes you. this is what i mean when i say that you attempt to understand matters through thick, subjective goggles despite your claim to neutrality. you expect to gain a thorough understand the qur'an simply by reading it like a book, yet you couldn't understand why exactly most translators put "(lightly)" after the word beat in a particular verse, other than tagging it as sly manipulation. i'm not prepared to lecture you on the disciplines of islamic law a) because it's extraneous to the discussion and b) you don't give the impression that you're vaguely interested in learning. to the rest of your points: original arguments are of no use here. ITAQALLAH 18:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

If language is metaphoric then what appear to be contradictions can actually be statements about different things. In this case, the language is very frank and literal. Hence your repeated lack of response to my questions. Regarding exegesis of the Quran, it happens in all religions that the adherents are stuck with their holy books. Most don't change them (you may have heard of Mormons. They actually have editted their holy book thousands of times. There is no post-Umar evidence of this, as far as I can tell, in Islam). So schools of scholarship then arise to try to make it all make sense. In the case of the Quran, it was composed by one highly intelligent illiterate man over the course of decades. It contains numerous contradictions and statements that by our modern standards are repulsive. Over time, Muslims have sought to construct frameworks by which an acceptable interpretation of the Quran can be rendered. Truthspreader seems to think that the Quran was very time-specific; the inhumane injunctions to barbarity were specific to Muhammad and his immediate successors; by the standards of his day, his killing and slaving were much less of an issue than for us today (which brings up the concept of objective morality, but I won't get into that again). If all Muslims thought like Truthspreader then I would have no problem with the faith continuing or spreading. Unfortunately it is clear that that is not a correct interpretation, and the majority of Muslims agree with me. As long as Islam exists there will be those who wage violent Jihad, i.e. kill people. Don't you agree? Arrow740 23:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

you're missing the point. nobody is talking about metaphoric interpretation, we are talking about the tools jurists use, and have been using since the inception of Islam, to gain accurate insight into the primary texts and derive legal rulings and edicts. this has nothing to do with providing a watered down "acceptable interpretation." i have paid no attention to your questions and emotive condemnations as you remain fundamentally uninformed as to how exactly we analyse the primary sources, so i have little motivation in discussing such issues of jurisprudence (under which slavery and jihad are subtopics) with you. that, and this is an encyclopedia, which you mistake for a forum. thus, you must excuse me if i feel there are more important things to attend to. ITAQALLAH 00:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no contradiction, is there, between the Qur'an stipulating that "Co-owners of a female slave may not cohabit with her, nor may a sole owner cohabit with a married female slave," and that the Qur'an allows one owner to have sex with an unmarried female slave (as it does)?Proabivouac 18:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

to my knowledge, no. ITAQALLAH 18:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The statement, "Some Islamic scholars assert that sexual relations with concubines were only permitted because slavery couldn't be eradicated immediately being an essential component of social and economic infra-structure, as Qur'an presents marriage as the only legal way of satisfying one's sexual desires," is plainly self-contradictory: if sexual relations with concubines is permitted, then marriage is not the only legal way of satisfying one's sexual desires. Can our source be this careless, or is one of us to blame?Proabivouac 18:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

the only problem i see with that statement is possible weasel wording. it should be attributed to Ghamidi, and if he truly makes that precise point, then he's probably opposed by the vast majority of scholarship on this. ITAQALLAH 18:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed.Proabivouac 19:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hadith of

Oh my.... As it seems we agree on something, will you also agree that most of this material deserves to be presented in some way - we are not here to paper over differences between Sunni and Shi'a anymore than we are here to exacerbate them - but at the same time, the current sitution is unacceptable? I wonder if Striver will also agree?Proabivouac 07:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for including a diff

I'm here as a mediator, and as I'm currently mediating a case related to religion in India, I happened to notice a recent message from you to an editor about a personal attack. Since you included a diff, it was easy for me to delete the attack. (I'm not including a diff. ;-)) — Sebastian 22:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The relation between Islam and science

I wanted to let you, as a significant contributor to this article, know that I've set several tags there, and noted my concerns on the talk page. I'm not trying to start anything, and would welcome a good article here in the English Misplaced Pages on the subject; but I have several concerns that, I think, compromise the article.

Personally, I'd rather Misplaced Pages present the very best work on Islam to foster genuine understanding. I know that that is an uphill fight, and I don't really like the ubiquity that Misplaced Pages is developing; but that is where things seem to be going. I'd rather see Misplaced Pages silent on a subject than miss the mark. You deserve the opportunity to weigh in.

Unfortunately, I'm not prepared to contribute meaningfully to presenting the Islamic facts as they deserve to be here, so you may have to pick up the slack. Thank you for your contributions to date. Cheers, MARussellPESE 02:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Usul al-fiqh

You might want to fine find misleading Islamophile sources for that article. As it is now it is saying that anything anyone did in front of Muhammad and didn't get rebuked for was OK, and Muhammad was infallible. Surely you can find a better picture to paint on this issue. Arrow740 00:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

? why would i want to "fine misleading Islamophile sources" for that article? ITAQALLAH 01:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You're certainly making this more stimulating for me. Imagine what you could have done with your real life during the time you spent trying to get me blocked for a day. Just give me a 3RR warning next time. Arrow740 08:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

you didn't answer my question above. anyway, 3RR warnings are only necessary the first time one is to violate it, not on every subsequent occasion, because by then they should be fully aware of what they're doing- as you were. ITAQALLAH 21:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You seem to think you understand me very well. Arrow740 22:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism by User:Proabivouac

User:Proabivouac has repeatedly vandalised the Islaim in China page, constantly reverting the sourced and referenced demographic figures from the bbc website and the 1938 china year book.

He has been warned 6 times of his repeated violation, and has a track record of antimuslim posting, repeatedly destroying muslim articles http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Proabivouac

see

• 10.46 14th January http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
• 00:22 14th January http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
• 16:47 13th January http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
• 00:55 13th January http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
• 09:15 12th January http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
• 01:25 11th January http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Islam_in_China&action=history

He has suggested various dates were innacurate, yet instead of asking for a correction he has deleted on no less that 6 occasions the sourced and referenced dates of

• http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/china_4.shtml
• There are in China 48,104,241 Mohammedan followers and 42,371 mosques, largely in Sinkiang, Chinghai, Manchuria, Kansu, Yunnan, Shensi, Hopei, and Honan. "Ferm, Vergilius (ed.). An Encyclopedia of Religion; Westport, CT: Greenwood Press (1976), pg. 145.

81.179.112.201 12:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Source inquiry on Muhammad's slaves

Itaqallah, it seems possible that Arrow740’s view of your motives for questioning a source on Muhammad's slaves was influenced by Talk:The relation between Islam and science#Introduction to Quran and Science this discussion, in which you advocate a different approach towards significantly more dubious material. As it is possible that your standards have simply improved in the three months which have passed, I've no reason to assume bad faith, but only mean to emphasize that consistency in the application of principle can go a long way towards building the trust which is so often absent from this space.

One thing upon which it seems possible that you and I might agree is that there is a heap of junk on all sides which Misplaced Pages is better off without. Unfortunately, factionalization hinders efforts to uproot it, as there is the inclination to rally around allies under the assumption (often true) that would-be deletors would take an opposite approach were the junk material of their own faction under review. The result is deadlock as this space is choked by an increasing pile of bullshit of all flavors.Proabivouac 03:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

as far as i remember, that comment is within the context of whether passages amounting to original research (for which citations are a possibility, quite a few books talk about the very topic) should be removed. that is not relevant here, where we have a source intending to forward clear cut polemic through cherry picking and half-quoting, whilst the article is referring to apparently the same 1945 edition arabic book. regardless, i don't actually intend to remove the sects straight away, and i will probably wait for this attempted verification.

regarding your other comments, generally speaking that is true. are there any specific examples you have in mind? ITAQALLAH 03:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, for starters, Pizza farm.Proabivouac 09:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

humorous, yes. it did seem like a hoax until i scanned through the USATODAY article, which seems to establish a decent case for keeping. looks like it's going to stay per the AfD discussion... ITAQALLAH 07:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't make it not junk. I don't understand the mentality whic says, yes, it's silly, stupid and hardly important, but keep. It's a total abdication of our responsibility. Things that are silly, stupid and hardly important shouldn't be here. WP:V is intended to determine what cannot be in mainspace, not what must remain there. It probably will stay, but it's interesting how most are saying, yes it's a pathetic joke but we must keep it. Are aliens controlling us from space? When something is a joke, we should delete it; otherwise, Misplaced Pages is a joke. My opinion, at least.Proabivouac 07:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

would you still believe the same about the article if the subject had received more significantly more weightage in terms of relevant press and academic works? it's not like journalists et al. have nothing to write about that they end up writing inane rubbish (that is in some instances debatable). for wiki purposes, if a subject receives a significant amount of attention, regardless of what it actually is and its reading on the laughability scale, it becomes difficult to argue against its inclusion. does that need to be changed? i'm not convinced. after all, Misplaced Pages is apparently supposed to represent (or aims to represent) the sum total of human knowledge. general notibility and academic verifiability guidelines seem to help cut through much of the subjectivity that can be associated with judging solely on article subject and its apparent usefulness. ITAQALLAH 04:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahmad

Which source, please be more specific. Str1977 22:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Where do these voices support Ahmad's view? Str1977 22:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

So why didn't you say so from the start. I have now instituted a version more reflective of this. Str1977 22:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

In the past 24 hours...

You accused me of engaging in libel and then you called me a dick. Considering that I did not even write Makbool Javaid, in which I suposedly engaged in libel, and considering that the last time I made a contested edit to HuT was on January 9, I no longer have any respect for you. Did you really think I wouldnt see your posts? KazakhPol 22:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

i didn't accuse you of libel. and i did not call you a "dick". i merely tried to empathise with AS in that there can be people one will find "uncomprimising", which links to metawiki essay m:DICK. yes, of course, i never thought you would ever see what i write, which is why i thought i would try getting away with a non-existent personal attack. no, wait... ITAQALLAH 03:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Having no opinion about your content dispute, I think you are making something out of nothing, KazakhPol. Itaqallah's comments here seem to me quite civil and reasonable.Proabivouac 03:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Your (Itaqallah) edit summary clearly implied you regarded my statements as "libellous" and you did indeed refer to me as a dick. You seem to have less maturity than Aaliyah Stevens, which is saying quite a lot. KazakhPol 05:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

"my statements" what statements? you have stated above that you didn't write Makbool Javaid. regarding your second allegation: no, i didn't. as Proabivouac mentioned: you are grossly overstating the evidence. please do not resort to making personal attacks. thank you. ITAQALLAH 05:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

No, see a personal attack is calling someone a dick. I had the maturity to point this out instead of responding with a personal attack, you, clearly, do not. KazakhPol 06:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

yes, calling someone a "dick" is a personal attack. i didn't call you one. per your talk-page disclaimer, i think you need to "chill out" ^_^. i see you haven't responded to the other comment regarding Makbool Javaid. ITAQALLAH 06:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Al-Muhajiroun

The references clearly say the organization has been banned as a terrorist organization. Neither AS nor SV are disputing this. The references may not be lined up as I only changed sources to references and did not verify the content, but in a bunch of them it says it has been banned as such. KazakhPol 06:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)