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Talk:Frances Farmer

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Birth year

Frances Farmer was born in 1913. I have her birth certificate, as well as the notice of her birth in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. Whoever keeps changing her birthyear to 1914 is mistaken. This was one of countless errors published in "Shadowland."

(cranky complaints excised by author)

Writing style

"The article reads like a blurb for a cheap potboiler." You are able to change it.
"is this a bio or a morality tale?" Well, it's an article that has been growing as a result of edits made over the space of about 18 months, by numerous contributors. It's not perfect. (but)
This article, like all articles on Misplaced Pages can be edited by anyone. If there is something that you think should be written better, please feel free to do that. That is pretty much the point of the open access policy to editing. If it's not something you care enough about to fix yourself, then rest assured that somewhere in the future someone will eventually reword it. Rossrs 02:05, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Uh huh. Annoying lecture (you should get a bot for that sort of stuff.) But valid points. Complaints withdrawn. The article is quite good on the whole.

Annoying lecture ... accurate description, fair enough. Following your "cranky (I would have said annoying too, but that's just my opinion) complaints". Sorry if I offended with my condescending remarks - I'll strike out the bits I withdraw. I was disappointed/irritated that someone detected cheese and instead of attempting to trim some of it away, chose only to comment on its unpleasant aroma. I don't detect cheese as easily, having been raised on cheap potboilers, and that's the truth ;-) Though I hope my writing style has improved since I first started this article. Rossrs 09:14, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

"She married her first husband, actor Leif Erickson, the same year." Is this a valid expression? Doesn't it imply that they were already married when they married? I don't know, it just stopped my reading flow. I think something in the lines of "She married for the first time.." would be better.

Cleanup

I have done a complete cleanup of the article's prose. Someone has subsequently arrived to correct the information about the essay contest and her later trip to the Soviet Union, which were two separate events. Thanks. Wyss 22:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that someone is me, who co-wrote the article to begin with and whose research is referred to throughout this and other articles referencing Frances. And so you're now admitting you did indeed make the error above? Jmk56 23:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

What is with you? I had nothing to do with most of the errors you've cited elsewhere. Thanks for your corrections but please give it a rest. I support your desire for accuracy and agree with the corrections you've made. I appreciate why you might be sensitive about all the inaccurate shite that's been written about Frances. Personally, I think it sucks.
So far as your remark about having co-written the article to begin with, when one looks back in the article history, one can see that it started out almost wholly incorrect and inaccurate, with all the wrongheaded 1970s era myths in place, so something about your statement is definitely wrong or misplaced but I don't care about that. I'm glad to see a reasonably accurate biographical article about Frances on Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your contributions towards making it happen! Wyss 23:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

My contributions go back for well over a year and constitute the first in depth, intensive and accurate revision this article received, including adding cites and external links. Your errors are here, among other revisions/errors you made today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frances_Farmer&diff=35842023&oldid=35674221

Jmk56 01:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

That conflicts rather starkly with your assertion above: "that someone is me, who co-wrote the article to begin with" (the original, earliest verisons of the article are riddled with factual errors and disproven popular myths). Although why you continue to pursue an unhelpful and needless confrontation here is another question. Wyss 01:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

No, what conflicts rather starkly is your assertions that you didn't make the errors I have provided proof you did, and that when I pointed them out, you then resorted to calling me a "bonehead," for which I also provided proof (simply go to my Talk page, where your comment stands). Once again today you have added more inaccurate information, as well as making a host of typos and other grammatical errors that I find inexplicable, considering your self-definition as a grammar fascist. As I calmly and politely asked you in my first post to your Talk page, simply fact-check your information before you post it. Not one thing I have added to this article has *ever* been questioned, because I deal only in facts, as literally thousands of people who have read my articles on Farmer know. If you don't know what you're talking about, why try to edit the work of those that do? Jmk56 20:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You're mistaken. Wyss 20:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

As I recently told George Bush (or at least wish I had), your saying so doesn't make it so. Please provide me with one fact I have discussed where I am mistaken. You erred yesterday when you edited the article and mistakenly linked the 1931 and 1935 incidents, as well as how Mikesell and Farmer met, you did call me a bonehead, you made more errors of fact today, and both you and Misplaced Pages are about to hear from my attorney. Jmk56 20:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I provided the source, please see the link above.
  • The name Mikesell doesn't even appear in the article.
  • I don't think you're a bonehead (as in "stupid"). I think most readers would agree that my use of the term yesterday was not meant in that or any other serious or deragatory sense whatsoever. However, I apologize if it was taken wrong and I'll be more careful in the future about using friendly metaphors and idiom in my conversations with you. On the other hand you've repeatedly accused me of being similar to or "worse" than that, wrongly. Please stop that.
  • I understand that you want the article to be accurate. Please calm down, stop the personal attacks and accusations and let me work with you, thanks. Wyss 21:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Again, Wyss, I am perfectly calm. The fact that I will not let you get away with inaccuracies seems to drive you slightly batty. Sorry if I'm stupid, but I fail to see any link above other than the one I provided to document your errors which you repeatedly denied making yesterday. Still waiting for an admission and apology on that one.  :) And since you seem to think you know this subject well, it astounds me you wouldn't know who Lee Mikesell was. You are the one who (again) inaccurately edited the section dealing with him (albeit unnamed at this point--maybe I need to edit some more, LOL). I know tone is impossible to discern on the printed page, but, again, you are the one who has resorted to name-calling (however innocently intended) and vague threats ("I don't know what you're up to," "I'm watching this page," both of which are still accessible in my Talk page's history, though I did you a favor by deleting them from the current version). All I ever did was ask you to fact-check your information before posting it. I fail to see how that constitutes a personal attack and/or accusation. Jmk56 21:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I've no problem with anyone viewing my full edit history. However, since you've threatened legal action I've nothing more to say to you for now. Your threat has been passed on to the administrative noticeboard, where it will likely be handled according to WP policy. Thank you. Wyss 21:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Alien Corn

My source for the 1935 date is here. This is Shedding Light on Shadowland, one of the external links cited in the article. Wyss 01:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Note, blocked user:Jmk56 (who tonight has been blocked three other times, twice as a cloned imposter of me and again from an anon IP, making 4 blocks), asserted in this edit summary that Shedding Light on Shadowland is wrong and the date is 1934. Sadly, after his legal threats, impersonations, harassments, and vandalism of my talk page, user:Jmk56's credibility is somewhat blown tonight but obviously we want the date to be correct so if anyone can provide a stronger source for 1934, it would be appreciated. Wyss 01:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Administrators have confirmed that tracing the ISPs will prove whoever you are claiming is a "cloned imposter" of you. It is not user Jmk56 and your continued allegations are digging you ever deeper into a hole. Calling Jmk56 a sock-puppet is rather disingenuous when you consider *you* are the one who had him blocked. His attempts to correct your many errors are laudable and I for one hope he continues to hoist you on your own petard.

Farmer's political activities

She seems to have been very active politically throughout the 1930s, including involvement in a relief campaign for the republican side in the Spanish civil war and a spokesperson for the silk boycott against Japan. The article mentions none of this. I'll try to add a section when I have the time to do so. Wyss 02:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

My edits

Everything I've added has been sourced from the linked articles or the American Atheist Magazine article. Some of these accounts conflict, I'd say mostly as a result of the sensationalized newspaper accounts in 1943, then the fictionalized books and movie after her death. I'm not satisfied with the chronological details of her institutionalization, for example, but the general sweep of the story seems to be there. I could have done more on the politics if I hadn't had to spend so much time dealing with the blocked user. Sorry. One of the problems with Misplaced Pages is that its creation process can be massively inefficient, especially in the social sciences, as we have seen tonight (even if the results do tend towards helpful accuracy). Wyss 03:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Please advise

I am a relative of Frances Farmer's, just registered to Misplaced Pages. Am I allowed to make corrections to this article?

Never mind, I guess I can. How do you sign your name that way?

Well, now I can't. What's going on?

What's going on is that I would like to welcome you to Misplaced Pages. Please sign your name with four tildes. However, so far as credentials go on Misplaced Pages, they must be earned with encyclopedic edits and responsible, cooperative behaviour. Might I suggest that you thoroughly review Misplaced Pages policy before doing much editing? Finally, in the past day or so this page has been subjected to some turmoil as a result of a user violating several WP policies, being blocked and subsequently impersonating a registered WP editor. If I'm a little wary for the moment, that's all you're seeing, it'll pass if you behave responsibly and are who you say you are. Thanks for listening, and thanks for helping out here! Wyss 21:40, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Well I am a grand-nephew of Frances'. But I want you to know that I am also a good friend of Mr. Kauffman's as are a lot of members of my family. I think several of us Farmers and Van Ornums are going to register here. We had been happy to have Jeff take charge of the article, but you seem to be in a major conflict with him, though I really don't understand it. He has helped my family immensely for many years. I hope that you will continue to let me make corrections, as you have quite a bit of incorrect information in this article as it stands. But thank you for your welcome. I'll try with the tildes now. GoldenBoy1 21:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops. Hi Jmk56. :) You're a blocked user and are posting here in violation of WP policy. Please stop that. Thank you. Wyss 21:53, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I am happy to provide you with my email address if you'd like.

No thanks. That username has been blocked. Wyss 21:59, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I can easily prove to you I am not Mr. Kauffman. Isn't it OK that he's a friend of mine? Whom else can I contact about this? Thank you for your help.

If you ask for help, the developers can run all sorts of IP checks on your username. If it corresponds to Jmk56's, you'll be blocked, too. I should say that for all his bluster and assertions of authorship and implied ownership, Jmk56 had left this article in a very incomplete, sketchy and even incoherent state. Sorry to say that but it's true. Given the circumstances, if you have new information to provide, or corrections, please cite them here on the talk page first. I think you can see that we're more than willing to put accurate information in the article if it can be verified and preferably triangualted via reliable secondary sources. Thanks. Wyss 22:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your willingness to amend corrections. I do disagree with you, having seen Jeff take the article from complete falsehoods to at least a relatively decent state, but of course as he would admit (and emailed to me, hence my arrival here), Misplaced Pages is not the shrine to him that it evidently is for others, no offense intended. I do subscribe to AOL, which I know Jeff does via his email, but I have a separate non-AOL ISP connection at work, which I could access and then have you "triangulate" to let you know I am indeed who I say I am.

Now I know you're probably not going to want to hear some of this, but several edits you have made today removing previous edits are indeed incorrect. I'll need to go back and forth between the article and here, but let me please list a few. I can give you sources, if that helps.

Frances was sent to the private sanitarium in January, 1943, and ran away in early September, 1943. It took Lillian several weeks to secure guardianship because the State of California balked. So it was 9 months she was there. This is all in quite a few news articles. Perhaps you have already found the Frances Farmer Tribute site (which, I hate to tell you, is largely derived from Jeff's archive :) ), and there are some articles there about this, I believe.

Let me go to the article and then I'll come back.

I do very much appreciate you at least considering making this piece factual.


OK, I'm back. I don't know if either of these constitute "errors," but indeed as Jeff attempted to post earlier, there is indeed a Variety article stating that the "broken heart" referred to Harold Clurman. I don't know if you're aware that Frances and Harold lived together for most of 1941 at her Santa Monica home. In fact Frances lent many thousands of dollars to Clurman, and Ernest (her father) attempted to get the money back after Frances' troubles started. He failed.  :(

Also I have a bunch of copied newspapers (if you tell me how to email you .jpegs, I'm happy to) and in all of the January 1943 articles, it refers to Frances driving down Sunset Blvd. topless. I have never seen any articles that say she was walking nude. I actually think these might not be sensationalized, but truthful, because (as you may already have read) they also state that she took off her blouse when she got into a tussle at a hotel bar that evening. Evidently she was feeling hot.  :)

Let me go back again.

OK, I need to check this one out (sorry, I'll probably email Jeff, I'm sorry if that is a problem for you), but I'm 99% sure her last play was actually in 1965 and was The Visit. I'm pretty sure this was when she got her drunk driving arrest, in fact now that I'm typing this, I'm absolutely certain, because I remember stories that she went into character when she was arrested.


OK, just a couple more and I think that's it!! Her diagnosis was definitely paranoid schizophrenia, in fact I think the diagnostic code is something X201, but I can get that for you. She may indeed have had signs of manic depression but that was not the diagnosis at any time.

Also, you correctly quote Edith about the lobotomy but you miss one salient point: Ernest was an attorney and could have easily made trouble for Western State. Perhaps you're unaware that Frances' Uncle Frank was a very well known Doctor who also was directly involved in all of this and who personally advised Ernest and Lillian that a lobotomy was not needed and should be rejected. This is all in Edith's book. If you tell me how to contact you, I can probably get you a copy of this book; it usually retails for hundreds of dollars. Hopefully this will show I am acting in good faith here.

  • If you could succinctly list, separately, each very specific point you'd like included in the article, along with a clear secondary source citation (book title, author, date, page number... magazine article... website), I'll be happy to insert them into the text according to WP policy.
  • Family connections don't mean much in building these bios. If anything, they imply a risk for unencyclopedic bias. A relative may be a great source for pointers to viable citations and context, but in scholarly terms wouldn't normally be considered objective enough to provide balance and thoroughness.
  • Please try to avoid characterising my edits as "incorrect" or "errors." They may well contain factual errors deriving from the source, but they're correctly drawn from those sources. I do want high accuracy but hearsay won't do, the information must come from citations of reliable secondary sources and correspond sufficiently with other available sources. That's how encyclopedias work. Thanks.
  • Please don't interpret anything I've said as a discouragement against editing Misplaced Pages articles in general. Quite the contrary. I hope this helps! Wyss 22:53, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


I'm going to let you make the edits, as frankly you scare me a little bit.  :)

I don't think so. Wyss 16:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Items to add

Here is the list, with sources:

1. Frances was at La Crescenta from January 15, 1943 to September 13, 1943. If you go to the Frances Farmer Tribute site on Geocities, it has the January 15 L.A. Times article saying she had been committed. The September 15, 1943 Seattle Times details her release on September 13 and arrival in Seattle on September 15. That makes 9 months.

  • Ok. done

2. The articles I have are copies from Jeff. I think he posted the date of the Variety article about Clurman and the broken heart. All I can make out is January 1943. The headline is "Stars flock to support Farmer."

  • Please give me a quote, publication name and date.

3. The driving topless articles are in all of the daily L.A. papers from January 15, 1943. Again, if you tell me how to, I can email .jpegs to you, which I'm happy to do.

  • No need for jpgs, all I need is a direct quote from one, name of the newspaper and a date. With that, I'll be more than happy to add it. Give me two or three if you like. One thing I haven't understood yet, was the driving topless assertion part of the circumstances of her arrest or some sort of general behaviour? may not exist, may have been later fiction

4. Frances' diagnosis. I have her original intake papers (copied from Jeff--sorry), and the diagnosis says "paranoid schizophrenic." The diagnostic code is 001-x24, (sorry I got it wrong before--I have the papers in front of me now), which I'm pretty sure is standard psychiatric jargon for paranoid schizophrenia, or at least I've been told so by several psychiatrists who have reviewed these records with me.

  • I've seen both diagnoses, I used the first, I think from LA General Hospital. I'll add this other one. done

5. The Visit. I have the Playbill. It was indeed October 22-30, 1965 at the Loeb Playhouse, Purdue. I know now for certain this was her last public performance (in a play, anyway--she continued to give dramatic readings until she could no longer talk due to cancer), and I am also certain this is the play where she was arrested for drunk driving.

Article still not complete

Farmer's story is complicated. For example, her institutionalisation seems to have been provoked more by her mother's distress that her daughter supported left-wing causes (which was not unusual in 1930s, depression-era America), than by vindictive studio moguls grinding her face in the dirt for resisting their will (although they were peeved at her and she did lose her contract with Paramount). Both she and her mother were very strong-willed and Frances did have a self-destructive streak, way. As time allows I'll add more about her childhood (which provides tonnes of context and insight into what happened later) and put in a small section about her public political activities during the late 1930s. Wyss 08:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sad, it seems to me that while her institutionalisation at Western State was a total tragedy, the biggest crime to her memory was Arnold's fictional story of the lobotomy, never mind her friend Jean Ratcliffe, trying to sell a book and screenplay with Frances' name in the writing credit, inventing all those stories about rape and other stuff. Wyss 08:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

You have done some excellent work here, now that you are trying to fact-check your work more carefully. However, your assumption above is wrong and, again, based on, in your words, "dodgy sources." Frances' institutionalization had everything to do with her violent and other erratic behavior and little if anything to do with Lillian. If you once again return to Shedding Light on Shadowland, you will find a whole segment on Lillian's defenses of Frances, which is not to say that Lillian was pleased her daughter had gotten in league with American Communists (it is unclear whether Farmer was ever a member of the CP. FBI records indicate she wasn't, though her sister-in-law claims in tape recordings that she saw Frances' CP card).
For a reference as to the "broken heart" referring to Harold Clurman, it is specifically mentioned in the January 25, 1943 Newsweek, as well as the Daily Variety article I attempted to bring to your attention earlier. Whatever source you are using (I assume American Atheist) for the "walking nude down Sunset" is still incorrect and I believe another User will be providing you with sources to prove that.
Though I'm sure this comment will disappear shortly after you read it, I want you to know that I am working now in tandem with two Administrators and Board members to clear my name of your false allegations that I somehow "impersonated" you or otherwise "cloned" your ID. I did no such thing. I have continued to post, undeterred for some reason despite your "blocks," without changing anything about my ISP, AOL. I at no time impersonated you or cloned your ID and a trace of IP addresses, which I personally am requesting Wikimedia initiates, is going to prove that unequivocally. At that point I am expecting a profound apology.
Of course Lillian defended her flesh and blood. This is biography, not a comic book and this is the talk page, not the article. Anyway what are you doing here? If you're a blocked user you shouldn't be unless you can work out how to get officially, legitimately unblocked (hint, it's much easier than you seem to think in a case like this, even if you did impersonate my username). Wyss 16:13, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh and by the bye those LA newspaper cites will be more than welcome when they arrive ;) Wyss 16:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

So once again you seem to learn nothing and repeat a false and spurious allegation. I am assuming you are very young (at least compared to me, which is about everyone these days), Wyss, and so I grant you a certain "still learning life skills" slack, but time will tell that your allegations are completely and utterly false. Yes, I have continued to post here because for some reason your "blocks" do nothing. Don't ask me why. As you so pointedly addressed in your second communication to me, I didn't even know how to post your Talk page properly. Every edit I have done at Misplaced Pages I have done by seeing how other people do the edits, which has been a major learning curve. Your continued assertions that I impersonated you and/or cloned your ID are false and will be proven so within the next 48 - 72 hours, according to the information I have been given by others looking into this. And I truly don't care if I'm officially unblocked or not. My contributions here, as you yourself pointed out, were "limited-topic," and all I have ever cared about is factual material about Farmer being presented on Misplaced Pages. This entire dustup is a result of you not fact-checking your first edits. At least you have had the good sense to go back and correct the incorrect information your first edited into the article. My other contributions have been relatively minor. I am a working father and husband and do not have time to spend 24-7 here, as many evidently do.
You were given specific cites about the L.A. papers yesterday, which you chose to ignore.
  • No, I wasn't given them. I'm still waiting for some quoted text from those articles. All I have so far is an assertion that she drove topless down Sunset Blvd. Please provide the quote(s), name(s) of publication(s) and date(s) thanks. Wyss 19:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Again, I applaud your efforts here now that you have sensibly removed the incorrect information you had previously entered and I wish you well in completing the article. Once the "impersonation/clone ID" matter has been settled, which, believe me, it is going to be, I will not be around to "harass" you further.

Corrections are appreciated!

As I continue to research and read about Ms Farmer I'll be adding more information about her life. All sources are not equal and while I do take care to verify facts (and sometimes even correct things myself later), please be advised that if errors occur they arise from my use of a source which seemed credible enough at the time. For example, at this time there are a few minor items in the article which, while generally accurate or reasonaly representative of the documented record, could contain errors in detail. This is a widely known problem in the writing of any biography and tracking these mistakes down is a normal part of the process. Newspaper accounts, for example, are notorious for small errors in detail.

My goal, as always, is an article which meets high levels of accuracy and scholarship. If an editor believes a correction would be helpful, there's no need to be angry or assume any negligence or intention on my part to distort the article, nor to speculate about such things in edit summaries or here on the talk page. Editors are urged to simply correct any factual errors with a note as to their source (alternately, corrections can be suggested here on the talk page). Additions, obviously, are also more than welcome! Thanks. Wyss 11:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This is Your Life

From Jmk As of this morning I am still blocked, so I assume it has been decided to keep me that way. The 'This is Your Life' trivia is inaccurate, as can easily be verified by watching the 1980s rebroadcast 'This is Your Life: The Classics', where Ralph Edwards himself states clearly that Farmer was one of a 'very few times' people (including, for example, Jane Froman) were alerted to their appearances prior to the show. This error stems from the ghost-written autobiography. I have attempted to correct this error numerous times in the past. Thank you. 205.188.117.13 15:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

(Just went back and watched and got the quote of Edwards verbatim. 205.188.117.13 15:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll fix it. Wyss 16:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

A few more suggestions from Jmk

Not to beat a dead horse, but I would feel better if the section on Farmer's medical records also contained a footnote to my article. I am the only researcher ever to have access to this material, and am still the only researcher to have reported this information.

You're referring to Shedding Light on Shadowland? (Please confirm and I'll put it in) Wyss 16:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The joke's on both of us, Wyss. As I have mentioned to others, you are finding out the Rashomon like quality of attempting to track down the truth about Farmer. Even I have a hard time remembering sources, etc. I have diligently gone back and checked all of the L.A. papers from January 14 (when her arrest was first reported) to approximately January 20, when the reporting stopped. Ready for the punchline? None of the contemporary news accounts mentions the driving topless episode or the strip in the nightclub. I believe these stem from both Hollywood Babylon and Shadowland and are, as such, highly suspect. The L.A. papers all go into detail about the "expletive" (it is not what is portrayed in the film) Farmer uttered, so that, at least, is sourced from a contemporary news acount.

Heh heh, this is not at all unusual in dealing with myth-laden bios, thanks for checking :) Wyss 16:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

In terms of sourcing 'American Atheist,' Conrad did a very noble job, but he will admit to you that he made several small errors. You can verify this by simply seeing how he describes me in the articles as a playwright, rather than a musician. One of these errors is the walking down Sunset nude comment.

Are you saying that we can't reliably source that she was reported to have walked down Sunset nude? Wyss 16:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Also I feel personally that Frances' escape from the private sanitarium is worthy of inclusion. As I repeatedly mentioned, it is discussed in detail by both Frances and her half-sister Rita on the This is Your Life episode, and it is directly what led to Lillian fighting for guardianship, which should also be mentioned explicitly. It is Lillian's guardianship (which continued until Frances' ultimate discharge) which puts the lie to so many of the misrepresentations about Frances' hospital years: no treatment of any kind could have been approved without Lillian's (and, implicitly, Ernest's) consent once they were named legal guardians of their daughter.

Please help me (again) with the inclusion of that escape, if you would please, by putting the details here or directly in the article, thanks. I haven't read about it yet in any sources I've seen. Wyss 16:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. 205.188.117.13 15:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Also if you could give me some brief details on the Variety magazine speculation you mentioned previously, on her "Have you ever had a broken heart?" remark as she was being carried off by the police, that would provide some historical context to curious readers. Wyss 16:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Answers to your questions

I am glad you are finally willing to at least listen to me and perhaps realize that I have already been down this torturous road you're travelling and have already seen the many obstacles.  :)

  • I was always willing to listen to you. However, I'm very glad the communication problem seems to have been resolved happily :) Wyss 17:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes, my article which cites the Farmer medical records is Shedding Light on Shadowland. A footnote is fine. (I am me, and I did write it, LOL).

2. Re: Sunset nude. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Conrad, like so many before him, simply repeats the allegations reported in Hollywood Babylon and Shadowland. I did a very thorough check last night, but I will go back and even check again. My check last night showed no contemporary news accounts mentioning anything about driving/walking topless and/or nude. I admit up front I may have missed something, but I don't think so. I have literally hundreds of articles spanning this whole saga, and while they are chronological, some of them are copied onto more than one page/microfiche, and so it is sometimes hard to find everything in one "sit."

3. The escape from La Crescenta. This was a low-security sanitarium, almost like a "health spa," despite their abhorrent use of insulin shock. One afternoon, Frances simply upped and walked away, ending up at her half-sister's Rita's house, which was, IIRC (it's mentioned on This is Your Life) over 20 miles away. (!) Frances told Rita about the insulin regimen La Crescenta was instituting, they both called Lillian, and Lillian immediately came down to California and engaged in a protracted court battle to win guardianship (the State of California had been appointed Guardian ad Litem when Frances was first institutionalized). Lillian was actually fought tooth and nail over this by the State, who had several psychiatrists (who, in hindsight, turned out to be 100% correct) stating that Frances needed further hospitalization. However, Lillian ultimately won Guardianship and travelled by train with Frances back to Seattle circa September 13-15, 1943. Frances then lived with the Farmers in West Seattle until she was readmitted in Spring, 1944, after attacking Lillian.

  • done (please feel free to point out or correct any errors - was Lillian the mother of both Rita and Frances btw or did they share a father?)

4. Actually a better source for the "broken heart" comment is the January 25, 1943 Newsweek, which explicitly states that the comment is not in reference to Erickson, but instead (direct quote) "a failed relationship with a Hollywood director." You'll have to take my word that that director was Harold Clurman, although Edith Farmer Elliot in Look Back in Love goes into some detail about the Clurman affair and Frances' repeated loans to him, which Ernest attempted, unsuccessfully, to have repaid. I have copious personal correspondence about this, but I will not reprint any of it out of respect for privacy concerns. So you can deal with that how you see fit.

  • Added to trivia (these trivia items actually work quite well in WP bios), since it could interrupt the encyclopedic narrative if included there. Thanks. Wyss 17:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

You had several other questions over the past few days posted at various times, and if you're receptive, I am happy to answer those as well.

Thank you. 152.163.100.138 16:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Please feel free to add or mention anything else. I'll look back and see if there's anything I asked about which hasn't been covered and thanks again. Wyss 17:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Golden Boy reviews

You may have misread the section on this in my article. Your first edit was actually correct--Frances' performance in the original Broadway production met with highly mixed (in fact, some outright negative) reviews, most of which praised her performance in the "love scenes", but found her lacking in some of the more dramatic scenes. I believe the Time magazine review, which mentions her miscasting, is on the Geocities Frances Farmer Tribute site, so you can verify what I'm saying.

However, by the time the National Tour began in 1938, every regional reviewer, from Washington D.C. to Chicago and on and on, raves about her performance. If you'd like, I can give you some direct quotes. I have an archive of all the National Tour reviews.

Thank you. 152.163.100.138 17:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I think I changed it because of something I read in the Seattle public library's treatment of Farmer (which may have been a bit too boosterishly incomplete in this detail). I don't think we need to get too specific, but I'll add the above. Wyss 17:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Lillian

Lillian is "a whole 'nother story", as they say, and probably worth an entry herself, LOL. Yes, she was married before marrying Ernest, and Rita is her daughter by the first husband (there are some suggestions Rita was illegitimate, but I don't buy them). Lillian, after working as a cook in the Yukon, moved south, married Ernest, and had Wes, Edith and Frances. Perhaps you have already read of her rather forward-thinking ideas on nutrition. As early as circa 1917, she was lobbying the Seattle Public School system to remove bleached flour and processed sugar from all school menus, which is virtually unheard of in those days. And of course it is legend how she cross-bred three birds to develop a red, white and blue hen that she wanted adopted as the U.S. national bird. In fact, regional bank Washington Mutual used to have an ad campaign with the slogan "That's different, that's Washington Mutual," which would contain a bizarre anecdote about someone in history, followed by that tag line. One of their spots was about Lillian (called Lillian Van Ornum in the ad) and her tri-colored bird.

AOL is still showing me blocked, BTW, but I believe that has to do with their cache. Hence, my continued "anonymous" posts. 207.200.116.138 20:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Jmk56 is unblocked so far as I know (I'm sure, truth be told), try a page refresh and then try to actually sign in. The AOL cache shouldn't affect the login scripts.

I'd heard about Lillian and the chicken <grin> and plan on adding it when I get around to doing a section on FF's childhood. Hadn't read about the flour/sugar thing. Wyss 21:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Eyebrows

Yes, it's minutiae (sp?), but actually by early 1937 (approximately photo 2022-76--all of FF's Paramount PR photos were numbered sequentially, 2022 being her personal designation), her "real" eyebrows were back. Tracking down the entire series of 2022 photos (there are approximately 315 of them, from September 1935 through early 1942) has been one of the more obsessive-compulsive aspects of my research, LOL. The only 1938 Paramount photos are ones taken on the set of Ride a Crooked Mile, most showing FF with the braided hair she had in the film, but others include some nice shots of FF and Leif riding horses. 207.200.116.138 21:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The 1938 photo I saw was a magazine cover. I'll change the trivia date to 37. Wyss 21:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It's no doubt a reprint of a 1937 photo. Paramount was desperately trying not to lose "momentum" with her since she was doing Golden Boy at the time. In fact, that's one of the reasons Ebb Tide wasn't released until December 1937, when it had been in the can for over 6 months. 207.200.116.138 21:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a studio ploy and yeah, the magazine cover photo looked like it could have been done by movie people, it's in this Seattle public library article. Wyss 21:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that is a 1938 photo, a very famous one in fact, one of the few color Steichen photos from that period. But guess whose collection it's from, and not properly cited, LOL? (They must have copied it from the Geocities site, which does properly cite it). However, as I stated, her "real" eyebrows were back in early 1937.  :) Jmk56 02:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Any way we could get that photo into this article? ;) Wyss 12:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

A couple of minor other edits needed

First off, the one that definitely needs correcting: it should be "acquaintAnces", in the section about her pallbearers (i.e., spelling error).

And, to quote a certain film director, I don't want to "nickel and dime you to death with facts" (I was the one who added that priceless quote to the Frances Misplaced Pages article, LOL), but FF actually did spend several weeks in Nevada with her Aunt after she was returned to Ernest after the vagrancy incident. There are actually no contemporary news accounts about her looking for work as a fruit picker; that's completely from Shadowland. Interestingly, in the contemporary news accounts (I reviewed them again this morning), she managed to get hundreds of miles away (almost to San Francisco, evidently) and had stayed with some poor family that had picked her up hitchhiking. That family's name is reprinted in one of the articles, as is the town they were in. Sorry, I've looked at so much stuff now, I can't recall, but I can get it for you.

Anyway, she stayed for quite a while in Nevada until (as is recounted in Look Back in Love) she took her Aunt's dog for a walk. Evidently the dog was attacked by a rattlesnake and died on the walk. Frances brought it back home, threw it at her Aunt, and said "Here's your damn dog." The Aunt, understandably, thought that perhaps FF had been involved in the dog's death and FF was shortly returned to Seattle. I know this is probably too much detail for this particular article, but she was in Nevada for quite some time. In fact I have numerous news articles from the local Nevada paper where her "visit" (euphemistically speaking) is dealt with as if she were royalty. 207.200.116.138 21:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if she was drinking in Nevada. Wyss 21:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Theater Arts Committee, ALB and Silk Trade

You had mentioned you wanted to know more about her political activities. This is actually something I'm very familiar with, as my late Uncle worked with Frances on such notable causes as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

Tell me how much/what sort of info you want, and I can provide it, including cited sources. 207.200.116.138 21:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Please do this when you have the time. I have to write a huge technical paper over the next couple of days in the real world but over the weekend I may have more time for another section... thanks! Wyss 21:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Just tried my user ID again, still showing blocked. Don't know why. Another AOL mystery. First the block doesn't work, and now the unblock, LOL. 207.200.116.138 21:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm back. We'll see. On my User Talk page, there is still a big warning saying I'm indefinitely blocked. Am I allowed to remove that now? Jmk56 21:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

You can, there's also a message from jpgordon saying you're ublocked and one from me. Wyss 21:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
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