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? view · edit Frequently asked questions
Is this page a policy or guideline, or the source for all policies and guidelines?
It is none of those. It is a non-binding description of some of the fundamental principles, begun by User:Neutrality in 2005 as a simple introduction for new users. For comparison, WP:NPOV, WP:NOT and WP:IAR were first written down on Misplaced Pages in 2001, and WP:NOR and WP:V were written in 2003.
What was this page originally based on?
It was an expansion of WP:Trifecta.
May I please put (pick one) {{essay}}, {{policy}}, {{information page}}, {{supplement}}, or a custom banner at the top of this page?
Please don't. Misplaced Pages:Not every page needs a tag.
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No. It also has nothing to do with the Five Precepts of Buddhism or the Five Pillars puzzle.
Even though it has nothing to do with the Five Pillars of Islam, won't Muslim people be offended anyway?
Muslim editors commenting here have confirmed that there is nothing offensive in this. The Arabic Misplaced Pages uses exactly the same words to title their version of this essay. The words "five pillars" are not inherently sacred; the same words might be used by Muslims in everyday speech, such as to describe architectural elements in a building.
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Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2021

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Dylan1496 (talk) 14:57, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Add the following to an external links section:

Listen to this page (4 minutes)
Spoken Misplaced Pages iconThis audio file was created from a revision of this page dated 24 May 2021 (2021-05-24), and does not reflect subsequent edits.(Audio help · More spoken articles)

This is a spoken version of the article, as of the night of 5/23/2021.

 Done TGHL ↗ 🍁 18:02, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Help me to Create Biography article page

I want to create my biography article page, kindly me to create this page— Preceding unsigned comment added by K.Mukherjee1996 (talk • contribs) 11:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@K.Mukherjee1996: The Articles for Creation process can help you out with that! TGHL ↗ 🍁 12:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

You can move User:K.Mukherjee1996/sandbox to the name of the subject by using move option.(note that this may not work properly on mobile you can use desktop view instead.)Ratnahastin (talk) 16:08, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Layout change

I've been working on a slight layout update for a bit now in User:Izno/Sandbox/pillars. It uses CSS flex. Benefits of the layout change include:

  1. Div-based layout.
    • The current layout is a table, which even though it has a role assigned to it that it is for presentation, it is still generally better to use a div-based layout.
    • Tables don't scale. Right now the table does not do so hot on mobile resolutions.
  2. The headings should be marked up as headings but are not.
    • It would also be good for the headings to match the general skin within reason (you can see I've removed the border from the standard heading).
  3. Removal of some purely aesthetic CSS that I can see no purpose for.

The new implementation uses WP:TemplateStyles (User:Izno/Sandbox/pillars/styles.css) so the presentation aspects need to be changed in only one place in the future.

Really old browsers that WMF still serves (IE9 basically, the other oldest browsers WMF serves do fine) don't understand CSS flex, so that is a slight loss, but it degrades gracefully to a column of blocks. And the gain on mobile more than makes up for it.

Please let me know what you think. Izno (talk) 23:58, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Looks good to me! I tried it on my laptop at various window sizes and my phone, and it overall is an improvement over the previous. I particularly like the font change to the headings.
If I could make one tweak, it would be how it displays on mobile. I don't feel strongly about this but it might be worth considering having the icon image display to the left of the heading, while currently it displays above the heading. The current CSS squishes all the text (not just the heading) to the right to make way for the image though, that should be avoided. I'm not sure how that would work with the "5PX" shortcuts though... Just a thought.
Overall, thumbs up from me! Leijurv (talk) 02:58, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
"Icon on the level of the heading" was something I had considered before the current iteration; I liked the look of it at desktop resolution when the headings are single liners but not so much at smaller resolutions, where the heading wraps around the icon (or at least did so with float; it would be a little more cooking to get the icon not to be wrapped around than what I had played with). You also then end up with a lot of whitespace for the shortcut boxes. Izno (talk) 04:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 Done Izno (talk) 20:09, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

"combines many features of . . . almanacs, and gazetteers"

I know almanacs was included in the first version, and "gazetteers" was added in a later WP:BOLD edit by UnitedStatsian in 2008, but what I have not seen discussed here is the actual reason for including them beyond "defining 'encyclopaedia' broadly". I entirely agree that "encyclopaedia" should be defined as broadly as possible. I do not agree that it should be defined as something that is not an encyclopaedia as this contradicts the entire purpose of Misplaced Pages as being an Encyclopaedia, and not, say, a dictionary.

In reality we have anyway not tended to include subject matter that is not encyclopaedic. Absent notability such that an encyclopaedia article can be written about them, we do not include articles on the classic subject matter of almanacs such as Old Moore's Almanac (planting times, tidal ranges and times, phases of the moon, time of races, bus and train timetables and routes, predictions about the future etc.). We also do not include, absent a pass on WP:GEOLAND that is at least supposed to be tied to WP:GNG, articles on the kind of subject matter that typically populates gazetteers such as the National Land and Property Gazetteer or GNIS (e.g., street names and house names with long/lat references, names of geographical features and height above sea-level) which are anyway primarily used as a companion or index to a map. we may of course include this information inside existing, already notable articles, but only as additional information alongside the actual encyclopaedic subject matter.

Indeed, particularly the inclusion of Gazetteers here may have led to harmful editing, such as, for example, the mass inclusion of features from GNIS and GEOnet Names Server that has required a massive clean-up due to these sources not actually discriminating between conceivably-encyclopaedic notable locations, and those which cannot pass WP:GEOLAND, and also due to the fact that both those sources contained inaccurate information about whether a place was populated or not. A similar situation arose with articles mass-created based on the Iranian census (arguably a gazetteer) due to a misunderstanding of what the nature of the places in it actually was (i.e., many of them were merely farms, pumps, houses, factories etc.). Gazetteers are also examples of something Misplaced Pages is explicitly not, as they are "geographical dictionar or director".

Perhaps this can be finessed by saying that we only incorporate those elements of almanacs, and gazetteers that overlap with encyclopaedias? But then this is true of many other types of books (e.g., dictionaries, star catalogues, atlases, bestiaries, lists of species, business directories etc.) some of which are actually included as examples of what Wiki is Not. If we wish to define "encyclopaedias" broadly here, it seems we could simply say "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, broadly defined" or words to that effect.

So why do we include almanacs and gazetteers here? FOARP (talk) 12:46, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm wondering why we include these two things and not, say, a deck of baseball cards or a Pokédex. "Almanac", in particular, seems particularly out of place since almanacs are almost entirely unencyclopedic collections of charts, tables, etc. –dlthewave ☎ 17:55, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
Reading the FAQ, I was surprised to learn that 5P has no formal standing and is just a description of our principles (which principles remains unclear). It claims to be based on WP:TRIFECTA; if that is truly the case, then much of the original version was created from whole cloth by Neutrality. –dlthewave ☎ 18:02, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I think that one good way that it works is to put a little bit of extra emphasis on the relatively higher enclyclopedicness of geographic topics in the complex fuzzy wp:notability ecosystem. Misplaced Pages:How Misplaced Pages notability works. But I agree that inclusion here does more harm than good. We need individually built articles, not mass-created stubs from databases that contain only what is in the database. While I support the change made by Dlthewave, from a process standpoint I question changing this prominent page without more consensus. From a process standpoint I'm just considering it a very minor and uncontroversial change (given that gazeteer was retained) and so won't revert on process grounds. North8000 (talk) 18:57, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I support removing "gazetteer" as well. There seems to be some precedent for bold changes to this page. especially since the existing content is neither consensus-based nor a policy/guideline, so it's probably fine to just remove it and then open a discussion if someone objects per WP:BRD. –dlthewave ☎ 21:47, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I also agree with DLthewave’s changes to the page. No-one has been able to provide a good rationale for the inclusion of Almanacs in this guide. This page is supposed to summarise some of our policies and guidelines, but absolutely none that I am aware of says that Misplaced Pages is an Almanac or contains aspects of one. Almanacs are resolutely unencyclopaedic! The category of this page should also be corrected per DLthewave’s edit - it is neither a policy nor a guideline. FOARP (talk) 19:01, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Again, I just want stress that the language says "WP has features of" these other works, it does not say "WP is a almanac/gazetteer" etc. I'm all for making sure we don't have circular policy arguments at play, but I think the arguments to remove here are claiming 5P says the later, when it really doesn't. And I would argue that in practice we do have features of those works, we just don't explain the bounds of that feature list. --Masem (t) 19:08, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

We also have features of other works that we explicitly exclude here (eg dictionaries). FOARP (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I think in the case of dictionaries, where we specifically state that in policy (WP:NOT), we have explicitly bounded what we've taken from dictionaries to use here. But we don't have similar explicit guidance against the type of content of almanacs or gazetteers, though there are parts of NOT that would make some parts of these works inappropriate (eg like the planting tables from a Farmer's Almanac) while others appropriate (like stats by country for a World Almanac). --Masem (t) 19:24, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
It seems really strange to open our core set of principles with a sentence that has no clarifying documentation whatsoever, leaving it up to the reader to guess what "functions of almanacs and gazetteers" actually means. This has caused actual problems when editors argue that, for example, we must keep all geography articles because 5P takes precedence over all other policies. If it's truly one of our core principles, why hasn't anyone written anything about it? WP:NGEO could arguably cover the gazetteer side but when has anyone talked about our almanac function outside of 5P?
I would argue that any overlap with the World Almanac and Book of Facts is strictly on the Book of Facts side of things. This is reflected in other electronic encyclopedias as well: Without the restrictions of paper, Brittanica's entry on the United States includes information that one would find in a Misplaced Pages infobox or World Almanac and Book of Facts entry, but they don't include almanac staples like moon phases and tide charts. We don't really cover things that would be found in an almanac or gazetteer but not an encyclopedia, so there's really no need to include these. –dlthewave ☎ 04:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
One way to fix the problem of users taking 5P as overriding policy is to mark 5P as a guideline or something to point out it is not a policy page. But I will take an argument from the other side: WP is clearly more than just an encyclopedia (including what you may consider as the sum of generalist and specialist encyclopedias), and its hard to explain what those additional functions are without mentioning the concepts around gazetteers and almanacs. But to at least eliminate the concern, stating "Misplaced Pages combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, and other reference works." and that still keeps where gazetteer functions of NGEO come into play. (Our almanac features are the fact we can keep World Book-type data that changes regularly up to date once sources exist to update it) --Masem (t) 06:03, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Well, somebody has to do it including stating the implied. So Masem's proposal is to replace Misplaced Pages combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, almanacs, and gazetteers." with "Misplaced Pages combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias and other reference works."North8000 (talk) 16:08, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Masem's proposed amendment (i.e., "Misplaced Pages combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, and other reference works.") and clarifying that this is not a policy/guideline via changing the categories of this article. dlthewave also argues persuasively. This keeps the intent of defining "encyclopaedia" broadly without privileging one kind of reference work over another, and stops this article being referred to as though it were some kind of over-arching rule or source of rules, which, per the FAQ which is the result of a long-standing consensus, it is not. FOARP (talk) 08:39, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
    • You can probably nix that comma on second read :P Also, I would footnote something to the extent referencing WP:NOT, "However, there are many other types of reference and utility works that Misplaced Pages specifically does not replicate", or something of that nature (my wordings are rarely the best on first writings), so that taken as as whole, we establish there's bounds on that statement. --Masem (t) 14:09, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Masem, you should clearly make your exact proposal and identify it as such. North8000 (talk) 15:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm OK with the wording as-is (bar the bit about the second comma). I think we're already covering WP:NOT through the enumeration of WP:NOT in the second sentence, no need for more than that. FOARP (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

The status of this page should be a general statement which is (to be) implemented in policies and guidelines. Misplaced Pages needs and and could use a few more. It's not detailed enough to be used as a policy or guideline, but IMO should NOT be deprecated. `North8000 (talk)

Agree this page should not be deprecated. I believe dlthewave merely intended to bring the categories presently on the page into line with the description in the FAQ (i.e., this is not a "Misplaced Pages policy or guideline). There is a misunderstanding that this is a constitution of sorts for Misplaced Pages, but it is not that - it is a general information page. FOARP (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
That's exactly right FOARP, I'm just asking for an honest description, not deprecation. I understand the reluctance to apply labels, so perhaps we could just use language like "The Five Pillars summarize Misplaced Pages's key principles" instead of "The Five Pillars are Misplaced Pages's key principles" on this page and others that mention it. –dlthewave ☎ 15:49, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Well, it is what we make it to be. IMO, that should be something that drives policies rather than summarizing them. I know that we don't fully have that, but IMO we should, and this somewhat is that. North8000 (talk) 19:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Masem's suggestion, "Misplaced Pages combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias and other reference works." This reflects the view that we're more than just an encyclopedia without nailing down any specifics that could be misunderstood/abused. I notice that this is the only pillar where the bluelinks don't point to policies/guidelines; it would be ideal if we could find (or write) something to point readers toward for further explanation. –dlthewave ☎ 15:39, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Purpose is an information page but is pretty encompassing. TBH for the moment I am OK with just getting the wording changed though. FOARP (talk) 15:51, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
That's partially why I suggested at least a footnote targetted WP:NOT (content policy). 5P is written in a "positive" tone so I'd be careful state "we are not these things" in the main prose. --Masem (t) 15:58, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done - I've linked to reference works to show the potential scope of things that we may borrow features from. "Reference works" is also good as it highlights that they are things that we refer to when writing encyclopaedia articles. Of course this is still governed by WP:NOT meaning we may borrow features from gazetteers, almanacs, atlases, discographies (etc. etc. etc.) but Misplaced Pages is not necessarily these things per se. What to do about the level of this article, beyond adjusting the categories and adding the Information Page hat, I think is a subject for further discussion. FOARP (talk) 12:24, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

IMO there is an important and much-needed missing category in Misplaced Pages, which is highly consensused general guidance items like this. They don't have the specificity to be be used as policies or guidelines, but which have the clout to guide policies and guidelines. I think that the change that we just made brings it in line with "highly consensused" rather than violating it. I.E. correcting an unconsensused bold change made, which did not have heavy review, because back then this did not have it's current stature. In the bold "make no small plans" spirit, I would like to elevate this into that newly created "guiding principles" category, currently the only page in that english Misplaced Pages category. Which BTW certainly expresses an opinion on any discussion about deprecating this with disclaimers. North8000 (talk) 00:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

  • This was an absolutely horrible change. Misplaced Pages's functioned as gazetteer for over a decade, and that premise means that articles on verified geographic features are allowed. The problem removing this tries to solve isn't solved by removing this, plus this opens up the door that more geographic features may be removed in the future, and knowledge lost. Finally, I'm shocked something this important would be resolved by four users on a talk page and not taken to an RfC. SportingFlyer T·C 23:36, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

RfC Notice

Your input is welcome at an RfC at WP:VPP. The proposal is specifically related to a change to this project page. Firefangledfeathers 18:47, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

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