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Barely passes NFOOTY with a few appearances in the Tunisian League. However, he fails GNG comprehensively. I have found no sources that show significant coverage. The article itself only has one. ArsenalGhanaPartey (talk) 14:50, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - Young player who has played two seasons in fully professional football, one in the Czech second division and one in the Tunisian first division. Both leagues are professional by community standards. Will add additional sources and fill the article out a bit more now. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 16:36, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone 19:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - young player, ongoing career, plenty of professional appearances for NFOOTBALL, also coverage out there towards GNG. GiantSnowman 19:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, for the reasons of those who want to keep this article. Davidgoodheart (talk) 22:15, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep passes WP:NFOOTY and the subject is 24 year old with an ongoing career.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. Where are the GNG sources? Can someone provide the best three pieces of SIGCOV please. JoelleJay (talk) 02:38, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Easily passes NFOOTBALL with 19 fully-professional caps in just the last 2 years! Can User:ArsenalGhanaPartey withdraw this nomination - presumably you weren't aware that his Czech appearances were fully-professional, as that team didn't drop to the 3rd tier until after he played for them. User:JoelleJay is well aware that consensus within the project is that with someone with a score of fully-professional caps, easily meeting NFOOTBALL, we don't have to waste time trying to find foreign-language references to meet GNG, and have debates about whether the sources in the article meet SIGCOV or not. Nfitz (talk) 00:29, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- You mean waste time demonstrating a subject actually merits an encyclopedia article? Waste time building a biography of a BLP that doesn't run afoul of WP:NOT? If he's so obviously notable from playing in the Czech second tier or Tunisian first league surely it would be trivial to find Czech and French/Arabic sources. And yet all I'm finding are database entries, rosters, brief mentions in transfers, and discussion of a movie someone with the same name was involved in. The main Czech sports publication iSport.cz merely lists him among Blasko members in a few articles, while there's nothing in Mladá fronta DNES, Lidovky, HN, CTK, Metro, or Blesk; and among all regional newspapers in Czech, which have tons of coverage of Blasko, he is only mentioned in prose (as opposed to rosters/match stats) once, in the Blanensky deník local paper:
the leadership of the Prague team could have been two-goal after referee Adamkova ordered a penalty kick after a foul by Aggoun.
No hits on major Tunisian news sites (in both French and Arabic) like GNET.tn/Akhbar.tn or Tunis Afrique Presse, or Tunisia Live, or Tunisie Focus, or Nessma TV or Watania or Kalima Tunisie; while others like Essahafa, Al Chourouk, El Khadra, Shems FM, Akher Khabar Online, Jawhara FM, and Radio Sabra FM strictly feature reprints of the same three-sentence announcement about CSHL signing him and a Chadian striker. The only thing beyond that is a namedrop in reports on the match against Tataouine in La Presse de Tunisie and Realites, namedrops in two articles on the state of CSHL in Le Maghreb, and namedrops in lists of player who scored in 2021 in Al-Sabah. JoelleJay (talk) 04:12, 6 February 2022 (UTC)- @Davidlofgren1996, @GiantSnowman were you able to find SIGCOV sources? Per above I could not, and as he was released from CSHL there's no indication of an ongoing career either. JoelleJay (talk) 06:47, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- That seems rather disingenuous given he was released from the team after their most recent game! Nfitz (talk) 19:44, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Davidlofgren1996, @GiantSnowman were you able to find SIGCOV sources? Per above I could not, and as he was released from CSHL there's no indication of an ongoing career either. JoelleJay (talk) 06:47, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- You mean waste time demonstrating a subject actually merits an encyclopedia article? Waste time building a biography of a BLP that doesn't run afoul of WP:NOT? If he's so obviously notable from playing in the Czech second tier or Tunisian first league surely it would be trivial to find Czech and French/Arabic sources. And yet all I'm finding are database entries, rosters, brief mentions in transfers, and discussion of a movie someone with the same name was involved in. The main Czech sports publication iSport.cz merely lists him among Blasko members in a few articles, while there's nothing in Mladá fronta DNES, Lidovky, HN, CTK, Metro, or Blesk; and among all regional newspapers in Czech, which have tons of coverage of Blasko, he is only mentioned in prose (as opposed to rosters/match stats) once, in the Blanensky deník local paper:
- Delete. Fails WP:GNG through lack of WP:SIGCOV, which per WP:NSPORTS is required. If those who believe this article should be kept disagree, then they need to present such coverage - although I don't believe such coverage exists, and was unable to find any myself. BilledMammal (talk) 02:35, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- You are well aware, than NSPORTS has a lot of caveats about when GNG sources need to be provided. You are also aware that NSPORTS allows for discretion (in both keeping and deleting), and the long-standing consensus in the project is that articles for young players who are active, are created when they are capped, and then kept for some time. You should also be aware that that NSPORTS is neither a pillar nor a policy - but merely a guideline. Presumably you are aware that guidance (and even policy) only documents already-existing community consensus - if consensus differs from guidance, then the guidance should be revised accordingly. Please stop following an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policies without consideration for their principles. Nfitz (talk) 07:31, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- What happened to the claim that he definitely obviously has SIGCOV from having appeared in multiple professional games? Now the argument seems to be he's young and active (despite being released by CSHL...), and also NSPORTS is just a guideline that must be WRONG since someone like him is clearly notable regardless of a demonstrable lack of sources. JoelleJay (talk) 22:29, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sure that you are aware that is entirely consistent with the long-term consensus and precedent in this project. The bottom line is you trying to change consensus. At some point that becomes a WP:Disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Misplaced Pages, like both the English language, and common law, is not governed by hard-and-fast rules, but by context and precedent. Nfitz (talk) 06:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- You mean like the consensus
* There is clear consensus that no subject-specific notability guideline, including Notability (sports) is a replacement for or supercedes the General Notability Guideline. Arguments must be more refined than simply citing compliance with a subguideline of WP:NSPORTS in the context of an Articles for Deletion discussion.
from the well-attended 2017 RfC that sports editors just immediately decided to ignore? Or the consensus from the hundreds of deleted articles on athletes meeting NFOOTY but not GNG? Or the consensus referenced by the closers of dozens of narrow AfDs of athletes meeting an NSPORT subguideline but not GNG? Or the consensus that shaped NSPORT's original and ongoing requirement for GNG, as evidenced by explicit statements to that effect in numerous places on the guideline? Keep !votes based on meeting NFOOTY are shorthand for "this subject is expected to have SIGCOV if we look in sources from the right time and in the right languages". This is a rebuttable presumption, and I have rebutted it by searching the archives of 27 of the largest sports news outlets across two countries in three languages and linking those search results for participants to look at for themselves. His coverage remains exclusively non-significant and transactional, and as he was released by his Tunisian team we don't even have a basis for WP:CRYSTAL claims of an "ongoing career". JoelleJay (talk) 06:43, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- You mean like the consensus
- I'm sure that you are aware that is entirely consistent with the long-term consensus and precedent in this project. The bottom line is you trying to change consensus. At some point that becomes a WP:Disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Misplaced Pages, like both the English language, and common law, is not governed by hard-and-fast rules, but by context and precedent. Nfitz (talk) 06:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- You are well aware, than NSPORTS has a lot of caveats about when GNG sources need to be provided. You are also aware that NSPORTS allows for discretion (in both keeping and deleting), and the long-standing consensus in the project is that articles for young players who are active, are created when they are capped, and then kept for some time. You should also be aware that that NSPORTS is neither a pillar nor a policy - but merely a guideline. Presumably you are aware that guidance (and even policy) only documents already-existing community consensus - if consensus differs from guidance, then the guidance should be revised accordingly. Please stop following an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policies without consideration for their principles. Nfitz (talk) 07:31, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Active player so is likely to attract more coverage in the future. Article has already been improved since the deletion nomination. NemesisAT (talk) 11:16, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- Comment - see source assessment table, demonstrating that there is no significant coverage despite the article being expanded.
Statistics only
- Delete @Nfitz: makes a completely unsupported argument
someone with scores of fully-professional caps, easily meeting NFOOTBALL, we don't have to waste time trying to find foreign-language references to meet GNG, and have debates about whether the sources in the article meet SIGCOV or not
that very clearly is not the case. NSPORTS is very clear about needing GNG met. There are indeed community consensuses on certain notability criteria that makes for significant interpretation from the base text (NPOL being an example) but that consensus is not an established fact, despite what nfitz might be indicating. Additionally, @NemesisAT:'s argument is also not of weight - that someone may well have more sources in the future doesn't mean anything for retention when we don't know when it would be. If he had some huge game on Saturday, then sure we should delay the AfD, but not without any clear timing. Draftify, and then resubmit when and IF it gets more sources. Currently GNG is not met, and it's not so exceptional to warrant an IAR case, though it is closer than the large majority of NSPORTS/but not GNG cases. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- My only error is that I meant a score, not scores - the nomination implied he'd only had a few Tunisian WP:FPL games, which is false. This AFD runs completely against the long-established consensus that once a young player gets a fully-professional cap, that it's okay to create an article. There is no need to Wikilawyer by cherry picking a guidance document, and playing up stuff like Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention - but ignoring the rest of the sentence that says "but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material". Meanwhile others complain about the overwhelming bias towards English-language players - yet few would be suggesting that a young active 4th tier player in England would not be notable - yet here we have people going after players who play in fully-professional East European and African leagues. Nfitz (talk) 18:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Is BilledMammal's source assessment table a correct representation of available coverage to pass/fail WP:SPORTCRIT?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 21:12, 10 February 2022 (UTC)