Misplaced Pages

Actually, I changed it back. Anyways, I've given him a warning on his talk page. The next time, it will be a stronger warning, and if he vandalizes again, someone reports him to WP:AIV, where administrators will block him. You might also want to read WP:VANDALISM. Good luck! · AndonicO 11:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of vandalism, will an admin please enact semi-protection for this page? It's under constant attack, mostly by anons and new users. okedem 13:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I don't think it's bad enough for protection. You can try WP:RfP though. · AndonicO 13:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Occupation of Palestine

I was just wondering if there is a section devoted to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, much like the United States is occupying Native American land. And also if there is a section devoted to how present-day Israel is a pseudo-country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.101.71 (talk • contribs)

Yeah, it's right up there with the articles on how France is and always shall be the property of the Roman Empire. You would be well advised to leave extremist points of view away from Misplaced Pages.Schrodingers Mongoose 02:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

How is that an extremist point of view? It's a valid point of view. Israel was established IN the land of Palestine. There's even a UN Resolution declaring Zionism as a form of racism, look it up if you don't believe me. I just want to get the facts straight so it doesn't seem like Israel is a country like the U.K., Germany, or Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.101.71 (talk • contribs)

First of all, please "sign" your talk page posts by adding four tildes (~~~~) after your message. Second of all, I was going to try to write some sort of response, but I think you fall under the definition of "troll" i.e. you are just trying to get people angry, and we're not supposed to respond to those. I do have a question for you though, if you live in the U.S., have you given your land back to the Native Americans yet? (And if you live elsewhere, as Schrodingers Mongoose suggests, similar questions could be asked. The U.K. and Italy were part of the Roman Empire as well, and before that they belong to other peoples. Germany was conquered multiple times as well. For that matter, long before the word "Palestine" was invented, there was a Kingdom of Israel, so how far do you want to go back? Wait, I'm responding...) 6SJ7 04:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, that resolution was rescinded years ago. okedem 06:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that anon's posts above are pretty "troll-ish" I suggest using less inflammatory language when making such editing suggestions. That said, I do agree that a section on the occupied territories would be very appropriate. How could such a section not be highly relevant to the topic of Israel? Also to answer Okedem's question about whether the U.S. has given land back to the Native Americans yet ... well actually yes the U.S. government has, albeit in an woefully inadequate fashion. There have been many court cases over the years with varying rewards and reparations to the Native American tribes for land taken from them. Can the same be said for the Palestinian land? Granted that is something left for a final peace settlement, but I don't see the Israeli government pursuing this reparation issue with much vigor. Also, the comparison between Israel and France, Italy, UK, Germany, and even the U.S. is not really fair. There is a huge difference in time. The Israeli occupation of the territories occurred within the last generation. The occupations you reference in Europe and the U.S., though equally unjust in my opinion, happened much further back in history. There are no people living today that directly experienced those occupations as opposed to the Palestinian territories which still contain many survivors.Fugliesunited 05:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

6SJ7 asked the question about the US, not I. This isn't the place to discuss the vigor with which Israel's government does this of that. I don't want to turn this into a general political argument. If you think you can write a section about the territories, and make it very NPOV, presenting only the bare facts (and making it short!), I won't object. I suggest you write it here first, where we can discuss it, and reach some agreement, before adding it to the article itself. okedem 09:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Map of Israel

Hi, I just wanted to note, that for some reason, the map of Israel presented in the main article doesn't note that the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights are being occupied by Israel. I replaced it with a map that notes these facts. Jondr12 19:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you on that. The map you replaced it with is a 7Kb png file. If you click on it it doesn't get any bigger. I suggest making and svg file and have it shaded so that Israel proper, and the occupied territories are noted. Chikanamakalaka 01:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The map you're discussing is just meant to show Israel's location in the world. There is no need for shading of any disputed territory, and to avoid controversy it is best to just leave Israel's recognized territory in black. There's also no need for the file to be expandable to a large size given its limited purpose. There is a much larger map of the country with the disputed territories shaded in, located later in the article. Schrodingers Mongoose 18:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

"Minorities at Risk"

Joffeloff has requested a review of the reliability of "Minorities at Risk", source 32 on the page.

I've read the source, and agree with his remark. It contains numerous mistakes and half-truths:

• "as a 1985 law has required that to participate in elections Arab parties must accept the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish state" - The law forbids parties with a political platform opposed to Israel's nature as a "Democratic, Jewish state" from participating in the elections. Jewish - as that is the very reason for Israel's existence, and Democratic, as a democracy has the right to defend itself (lest it fall like some others - note the Weimar Republic). That law was actually used only once (as far as I can remember) - to prevent the ultra right-wing, Jewish extremist party Kach from participating.
• "Arabs are barred from the military" - Crap. Unlike most Jews, most Arabs are exempt from conscription, but can still join if they want to - not that I can see why they'd want to. Many Jews find ways to evade conscription, and don't suffer any ill consequences. The small benefits given by the state are nothing compared to the fact that Arabs can work (or study) during the 2/3 years most Jews spend in the military (not getting paid). Some Arabs do serve in the military - like the Beduin.
• "yet by established JNF policy, these lands can not be alienated to non-Jews." - The source fails to claim that the JNF was established as a private organization, collecting donations from world Jewry to purchase land for the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel/Palestine. Thus, most of its lands are privately-owned, not public lands (I say most, because some lands were given to it by the state). Anyway, the source is also outdated, as the issue has been largely resolved.
• "...cultural organizations which openly promote Arab culture are prohibited" - That is just not true. I don't know how else to say this, but it's just false. Untrue, fallacious, erroneous.
• "...for security reasons, in 2001 and 2002, the Government did not allow male Muslim citizens under 30 to perform the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia)" - The source fails to mention that Saudi Arabia is formally an enemy state (of Israel).
• "Arab Israelis married to Palestinians have long experienced difficulties in obtaining permits to get their spouses into Israel... prohibit residency permits to Palestinian spouses, therefore restricting the family life of Arab Israeli citizens" - Although rare, there are Jews married to Palestinians, and they experience the same difficulties. As Israel is currently at an armed conflict with the Palestinians, it's only reasonable it wouldn't allow Palestinians to receive permits to live in Israel.

This so-called source is extremely biased, and, in my view, should not be used. okedem 22:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the quote and the source, as there were no objections here. okedem 09:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Status of Israel's capital Jerusalem is disputed

Hi all, why do we not mention in the lead that the status of Israel's capital is actually disputed? Thanks. Yas121 17:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Your first source is a Canadian court - which has no bearing on reality, and your second source - is nothing but a wikipedia mirror.

Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Go through the archives for all the arguments about it, but it is the capital, de facto and de jure, and a country doesn't need anyone's approval to appoint a capital city.

If you wish, we can remove that tiny remark ("Its capital is Jerusalem"), as that was only added a few days ago, and the capital is already listed, with a proper footnote, in the info-box on the right. okedem 17:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

OK sure. I agree :-) Yas121 17:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

1948 War of Independence and migration

I question the NPOV of this statement:

Some Israeli historians suggest that the Palestinians fled because of orders from Arab generals. Many Palestinians left under the belief that the Arab armies would prevail and they would return.

Besides being rather biased, the source for this doesn't appear to be particularly credible. It cites a NY Post article from 1948 written by "Observer". Reading this apparent primary source clearly shows that the source itself is biased. Also, the article is from the Immanuel Velikovsky website, which in itself should raise some questions about neutrality (IV is not known for his neutral and objective stance). Fugliesunited 07:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA

I have failed this article as a GA per lack of referenced and in-line citations. While there are many sections that do really well at this, there are still quite a lot of places where non-trivial information or statistics is stated without citations. I would have guessed that some of these would have references on the {{main}} pages corresponding to the sections, but I have checked a couple (for example the Music section) and this is not entirely true. Quite a lot of {{fact}} statements sticking out as well. I have not spotted any other problems.--Konstable 02:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)