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Talk:East–West Schism

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Alanwilliams101 (talk | contribs) at 18:17, 30 May 2022 (→Potential Link to Supernova of July 4, 1054 A.D.? Or Coincidence?: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Vanity press detected

While we appreciate this edit which cleaned up the citation style, it tripped the edit filter which claims "Content sourced to vanity press", which is highly undesirable. Therefore I have tagged the article as possibly having unreliable sources. Elizium23 (talk) 09:10, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Mis-placed sentence?

In lead paragraph 1: 

 > ... culmination of theological and political differences 
 > which had developed during the preceding centuries

That is absolutely fine. Also fine is the start of lead paragraph 3: 

 > In 1053, the first step in the process which led to a formal schism was taken

In contrast, however, lead paragraph 3 closes thus: 

 > ... only the first act in a centuries-long process 
 > that eventually became a complete schism.

This makes no sense at the close of a paragraph narrating the 1053-1054 events. Such a sentence might belong further down, in connection with something much earlier; but its presence at the end of lead paragraph 3 is clearly accidental: I am therefore deleting the sentence. I have checked that Runciman 1955 does not thereby become orphaned, as it's also cited in References. --Peter010101 (talk) 16:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Title

This event is mainly referred to as the “Great Schism” in English, and using the term “East-West Schism” downplays this. Undoubtedly, this was the biggest schism in Christian history, paving the way for later western schisms. The title should be changed to “Great Schism”. Ri Osraige (talk) 14:35, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

It appears this issue was last raised at a 2011 requested move, so it may be time to revisit it. The main reason it wasn't at the time is that the later Western Schism is sometimes called the Great Schism, but I still this is the primary topic for that term. -- Calidum 20:02, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Section on Hell

I significantly modified this section as it relates to Eastern Orthodoxy, since it contained blatant errors such as claiming that the Orthodox believe there "is no hell," and made sweeping generalizations and universal, doctrinal claims on behalf of Orthodoxy as a whole, when even the Misplaced Pages article on hell, in the Orthodox subsection, clearly states and explains the variety of opinion in this area, and the lack of a single, official doctrine, as is found in Catholicism.

67.42.97.177 (talk) 10:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

There is no reference to Hell in the Orthodox Liturgy or the Latin Mass, unlike with the Lutheran Liturgy and Eucharist of the Church of England. I am also uncertain as to whether there is a concept of eternal punishment in the Orthodox Church as God is stated in the Liturgy to be all loving, merciful and forgiving. Perhaps a reference is needed or possibly a different wording where it is presently stated that "there is damnation or punishment in eternity for the rejection of God's grace". Not being graced by the presence of God does not necessarily imply one is punished or damned by God. There is a good presentation in the Orthodox wiki: https://el.orthodoxwiki.org/Κόλαση - that the distancing from God's grace is a voluntary choice and not a punishment imposed by God as is made clear by a cited quote from St John of Damascus: "Και τούτο ειδέναι δει, ότι ο Θεός ου κολάζει τινά εν τω μελλόντι αλλ' έκαστος εαυτόν δεκτικόν ποιεί της μετοχής του Θεού. Εστίν η μεν μετοχή του Θεού τρυφή, η δε αμεθεξία αυτού κόλασις" - God does not punish but each one decides on his receiving of God, whose reception is joy and his absence a Hell. I am inclined to slightly change the current text to better reflect the Orthodox Christian view that God does not punish. Skamnelis (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Reason and Orthodoxy

The statement that "Eastern Orthodox theologians argue that the mind (reason, rationality) is the focus of Western theology, whereas, in Eastern theology, the mind must be put in the heart, so they are united into what is called nous; this unity as heart is the focus of Eastern Orthodox Christianity" is based on a reference by the American Romanian Carpathian Church. I am not sure this interpretation (and the entire paragraph that follows it) is representative. Of course, it is in the nature of the Orthodox tradition that there are differences in interpretation of the sacred texts because their meaning depends somewhat on the education and understanding of the individual. However, the contrary position has many defendants: The opening of the Gospel of St John quotes Heraclitus: In the arche (first principle) there was Logos ... Through it everything came to be". Heraclitus by Logos meant Reason (in fact that is what the word means in Greek). The translation into Latin as "In the beginning was the Word" certainly does not reflect Heraclitus accurately and rather detracts from the position of Logos (Reason) in Christian thought. St John the Evangelist lived in Ephesus, the city where Heraclitus had lived, and the reference to Heraclitus could not have been accidental. See also https://orthodoxwiki.org/Logos and https://www.orthodox-theology.com/media/PDF/IJOT1-2010/12-popescu-trinity.pdf Skamnelis (talk) 12:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@Skamnelis: OrthodoxWiki is a WP:SPS so it cannot be used as a source on Misplaced Pages articles. If you have a good source more authoritative than the current one to support the change you want (e.g. Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church or The Encyclopedia of Eastern Orthodox Christianity), feel free to use it. Veverve (talk) 19:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Potential Link to Supernova of July 4, 1054 A.D.? Or Coincidence?

Has any theological or anthropological scholar ever looked into the coincidental occurrence of the supernova of 1054 A.D. which is now known as The Crab Nebula? I am not speculating the supernova had any material effect on the schism, but maybe from a psychological perspective and given the fact "signs in the sky" were always associated with "messages from God" may have been an impetus for the official breakaway less than 2 weeks after the supernova occurred? The supernova was visible during daylight hours, and was brighter than any object in the nighttime sky except for the moon. It is difficult to imagine this event had zero influence on the psychology of those observing such an event, and I would think the question should be asked. Was this event part of the reason why July 16th, 1054 A.D. was chosen as the official date for the schism?

I would hope someone with more insight into this matter would step forward and investigate this possibility. It is not so much whether this particular supernova event had any psychological bearing on the decision of the churches to breakaway from each other, but whether future events might have some psychological bearing on future institutions who have had longstanding riffs in beliefs, ideologies, or other issues. Alanwilliams101 (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

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