Talk:September 2022 Armenia–Azerbaijan clashes

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Ceasefire failed

@Dunutubble: The Russian broken ceasefire was broken within minutes and the clashes are continuing. These two Twitter accounts are giving updates. , . Viewsridge (talk) 14:00, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Name

Invasion? No one is calling it an invasion. ( ) It should be changed back to clashes. All Azerbaijan has done (as of now) is capture some heights on the border, not invading it's neighbor. Nothing in the article as well says anything about an invasion. Yes, Azerbaijan has moved into Armenia's recognized borders but if they were launching an invasion, they would have (or at least tried to) take more Armenian land and villages. As more time passes, if it turns out to develop into an invasion or not, we will have to see, but clashes between Armenians and Azerbaijanis are not rare. (If it does develop into an invasion, remove "September" from the title and change "Invasion" to "invasion" as well.) Mtcat101 (talk) 23:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I've moved it myself back to clashes. Mtcat101 (talk) 23:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mtcat101: Shouldn’t it be titled September 2022 Armenia-Azerbaijan border clashes? Blaylockjam10 (talk) 00:50, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, I completely missed that. It's fixed now. Mtcat101 (talk) 01:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Blaylockjam10 and Mtcat101: The clashes are not necessarily limited to the border, Armenia has said that the city of Martuni was shelled by Azerbaijan. The towns of Jermuk and Goris were also shelled which are not adjacent to the border. Viewsridge (talk) 06:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

It's well known that the media report on this in a very pro-Azerbaijan way. Looking at this objectively, parts of Syunik, Vayots Dzor and Gegharkunik provinces (UNCONTESTED AREAS OF THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA) are being invaded, civilians have been killed. How the hell is that not an invasion??? If for example, the USA randomly invaded Toronto, started shelling canadian military sites etc, by your logic, you would then say that "clashes have taken place in the disputed territory of Ontario"., even though there is no international consensus that these lands are disputed, beyond the most fringe propaganda of the state of Azerbaijan. Mikeo34 (talk) 10:40, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mikeo34: This has not been described as an invasion by any third party or even first party source for that matter, including by Armenians themselves. Even in the case that it had been, such a change would require a renaming discussion first. I am reverting the article back to its old name, please discuss first before making such changes. Viewsridge (talk) 11:06, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Viewsridge: Media uses different descriptions, including “Azerbaijan has attacked Armenia” or "war", while human rights organisations like Lemkin institute call it a “war of aggression” and Freedom House calles it "Attacks on Armenia" . A number of government/parliamentary statements describe it as a "large-scale attack" , or “aggression” , on the "sovereign territory of Armenia". Most US senators/congressmen refer to “(unrpovocked/unwarranted) attack/aggression/offensive/assault on/in Armenia” by Azerbaijan , The US state department also confirmes “significant evidence of Azerbaijani shelling inside Armenia and significant damage to Armenian infrastructure" , while Armenia has reported already 4 civilians wounded and over 2500 displaced and the fact that it’s been brought up in the UN Security Council also suggests more than just “border clashes”... Hence the current title seems misleading as it does not reflect the scale of the attack (if you see the maps it's basically covering 30-40 percent of the entire territory of Armenia) and the fact that Azerbaijan is recognised as the instigator of the attacks and that the fighting is inside internationally recognised borders of Armenia. So I would suggest renaming it to something more appropriate, like a "large-sale military aggression/attack/offensive on Armenia by Azerbaijan" or similar. Vanezi (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Vanezi Astghik: There is no dispute that Azerbaijan is taking offensive actions in the clashes. This has been admitted by their government. However these actions are still not called an invasion by any references. It can be stated in the article that Azerbaijan is accused of launching an unprovoked attack. Viewsridge (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

These aren't border clashes. It has been confirmed by both sides and by independent media that Azerbaijan has advanced to territories deep within Armenia. --Antondimak (talk) 14:43, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

@Antondimak: Please see the discussion above. Viewsridge (talk) 16:32, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

References

UNDUE?

@ZaniGiovanni: Please explain why AzMoD's statement is UNDUE. It is not displayed in Wikivoice and is explicitly stated to be *their* statement. There is nearly identical information in the section below the one you reverted, but from the Armenian MoD. How come you don't think that's UNDUE? — Golden 12:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "nearly identical" statement you’re talking about, I'm going to comment on my revert.

Saying Azerbaijan didn't enter Armenian territory is utter nonsense even if it's a MoD statement, WP:UNDUE applies here. Especially when Azerbaijan already occupies Armenian territory around Lake Sev. , which makes such a statement even more UNDUE, WikiVoice or otherwise. Unless third party RS confirm such exceptional claims, it shouldn't be used in the article. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

You know, the one that was added just before mine. Anyway.

I really don't think you understand what UNDUE means. To omit statement from one of the two sides of the conflict is definitely not something that policy would support. But oh well. — Golden 12:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The Az MoD version is in the section already; September_2022_Armenia–Azerbaijan_clashes#12–13_September.

What was removed were exceptional and undue claims contradicting RS and current occupation of Armenian land near Lake Sev, making such statements even more UNDUE. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Aliyev's irredentist territorial claims

A paragraph I had added regarding Aliyev's irredentist claims over Armenia's sovereign territories which are currently attacked by Azerbaijan was removed by Golden. I need further explanation on why those statements don't belong to the background section as they are concering the currently attacked provinces which he continuously held territorial claims on over the years.

Hi, please read WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Unless a reliable source has connected Aliyev's past irredentist claims to the modern clashes, your own conclusion that they're connected would be original research and not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. — Golden 12:39, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Civilian casualties

Two azeri civilians were killed according to Azerbaijan, "Joint Statement of the Azerbaijan Ministry of Defense and the Prosecutor General's Office". This is given in the article, but not the information box. Please, add this to the information box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.134.57.203 (talk) 15:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Not killed, but wounded. KHE'O (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

KHE'O yes please add it

Background section needs expansion

The background section needs to be improved, however, I'm unable to edit the source of the page. If any of the contributors would be interested in doing that I can provide more sources (User:Vanezi Astghik, User:ZaniGiovanni maybe?).

The first paragraph of that section should include some details about the dispute over the so called Zangezur corridor, with Aliyev's threatening statement from April 2021. Here are some analysis of the current events connecting both Zangezur corridor dispute, and Aliyev's threatening statements/territorial claims to the background of the current attacks. This can be restored as well with more details added about the corridor dispute. Yellowheawrt (talk) 18:15, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Undue weight

Eurasianet, Deseret News, Reuters, The Jerusalem Post, and Laurence Broers have acknowledged that the clashes were started by Azerbaijan, so it is WP:UNDUE to "both sides" who started it. Dallavid (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Also, apparently The New York Times didn't bother to fact-check that this isn't in Nagorno-Karabakh. --Dallavid (talk) 18:37, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Dallavid: These are not reliable sources since they are second party opinion pieces. As in they didn't collect the data themselves but are adding into the material that was shared from news agencies. Reuters has made no mention of these. Viewsridge (talk) 19:16, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Those sources are clearly third party (not relation to Armenia or Azerbaijan at all) and are not "opinion pieces". Eurasianet is probably the most qualified source in the entire article because it specializes on news, information, and analysis in the Caucasus. Eurasianet has won multiple awards for quality, such as the EPpy Awards. Desert News is also considered completely reliable.

And are you aware that you made five reverts in less than 24 hours? Please do not remove sourced content again without discussing here first. --Dallavid (talk) 19:40, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

@Dallavid: Yes I have been reverting unsourced additions on the article since there are very few editors watching the page. Please do not assume battleground behavior in this discussion. A source being reliable does not mean their publishings represents facts. Quite reliable sources such as NYT and CNN regularly publish opinion pieces to give their editorial perspective on the subjects, which is what the sources you have cited are including. Some of the others sources such has Reuters are apparent failed verifications, which means they don't include the material they are being cited for, that is why I have removed them. Viewsridge (talk) 20:24, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which neutrally represents infraction. The information you added was cherry picked from the provided sources and obviously distorts the neutrality.

Euroasianet states that Azerbaijan carried out a wide-scale attack against targets in Armenia, but then provides both Azerbaijani and Armenian version, it does not state who started clashes.
Desert source, first time hearing about that newspapper, but it refers to according to the Armenian Weekly, Azerbaijan launched an attack against the Republic of Armenia. and states that Laurence Broers said that Azerbaijan attacked, but Laurence Broers did not said that, he just attributed it to what Yerevan said.
Reuters source just attributed it to according Yerevan
Jpost source does not states that Azerbaijan attacked, but says that Azerbaijan and Turkish media have claimed Armenia is at fault for the clashes this week, but evidence and reports point to the opposite.

As I said sourced does not support the material you added, and cherry picking information would be WP:SYNTH and distort neutrality. Almost all sources agree that Azerbaijan started the clashes, but also all of them present it as "Clashes" and not "Attacks on Armenia", and almost non of the sources blame one side, but share versions of both. On the other hand, the previous version of the article was starting with clashes, which is truth, and then sharing both versions of what happened. I think adding up to it would be more appropriate. Thanks. A b r v a g l 20:44, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, version of the article, which I restored, already makes it clear that Azerbaijan attacked targets in the Armenia, but it does it while obeying neutrality, where your version is not following WP:NPOV at all. However, as I said, you can add up to what is already written. it would be better to add it to the body of the article and then summarize in the lead, we do not want lead of the article to be bigger that the body, do we? A b r v a g l 21:02, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

@UserXpetVarpet, it is not “my complaints”, I provided policy based reason, please read it above. Also, page was created 3 days ago and no consensus reached yet on the stable version, if you adding material, please ensure that you reach consensus as per WP:BURDEN and WP:ONUS. A b r v a g l 21:29, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Rename Page "Third Nagorno-Karabakh War"

Pretty clear that this is more than a border clash: due to Ukraine war Russia isn't doing anything to peacekeep, and Azerbaijan senses an opportunity to grab the remaining disputed territory that they didn't get in the last war.

When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die 19:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Agnimandur: Has to be described as such by reliable references before such a change can be made. Viewsridge (talk) 19:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Well clashes are not in the Nagorno-Karabakh, and looks like they are stopped...so they were border clashes, not war. Third Nagorno-Karabakh War name not suitable . A b r v a g l 21:04, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

There's not even an article titled Second Nagorno-Karabakh War. Super Ψ Dro 13:38, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2022

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Change biased information of "Azerbaijani attack on Armenia" to "clashes erupted, whereas both sides blamed each other". 95.65.208.162 (talk) 22:36, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This looks to be very well sourced, and will definitely be a contentious edit. Please discuss this with other editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:39, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

"Azerbaijan and Armenia ceasefire fails within minutes - media".
"Armenia Asks Russia to Help as 105 Killed in Azerbaijan Fighting". Bloomberg. September 14, 2022. Retrieved September 14, 2022.
"Attacks on Armenia highlight ongoing disputes over "corridor" for Azerbaijan". Euroasianet. September 14, 2022. Retrieved September 14, 2022.
"The war never ended; the peace process never existed". OC Media. September 14, 2022. Retrieved September 14, 2022.

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