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Talk:Irish mythology

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Wikibooks

Anyone interested in contibuting to this project might also like to help out with the wikibook project http://en.wikibooks.org/Mythology/British_and_Irish_Mythology

Bandraoi 12:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


Other Comments

Some of this is Scots as much as Irish. Perhaps it would be better placed in Celtic or Gaelic mythology. -- Derek Ross

Pre-christion Ireland and Scotland were a single cultural region, (in fact the term "Scot" was originally applied to people in Ireland), so yes this stuff probably should be moved somewhere more general. Probably Gaelic mythology is the place to put it rather than Celtic mythology (on the assumption that Welsh and Breton mythology is sufficiently different). --Eob

Gaelic mythology would certainly be more accurate. I would move it, but because Irish mythographers (and, for instance, German Hibernicists) tend to use the word "Irish" where Gaelic is meant, Irish is much more recognizable. What do others think? - Calgacus 16:59, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I think there will probably need to be a sort out at some point. But this was really put up (with the move to the PHP bracketed solution firmly in mind) so that precisely these sorts of issues could be addressed. Once we get brackets we can do this such that we can split the different implementations of the various Celtic deities by ethnicity e.g. , , etc. sjc --

There does need to be some recognition of the pan-Gaelic nature of some of this stuff, particularly the Fenian material, but most "Irish mythology" - the Invasions tradition, the Ulster Cycle, the Kings Cycles - is specifically Irish. It's also wrong to say that pre-Christian Ireland and Scotland were one cultural region, as the Gaelic colonisation of Scotland is quite late and mostly Christian - pre Christian Scotland was mostly Brythonic and therefore of a cultural piece with the Welsh and Cornish. The different manifestations of Lugh are already addressed to a certain degree - Lugus is the ancient continental Celtic deity, Lug is the Irish former deity, Llew Llaw Gyffes is the Welsh manifestation. The differences in time, geography and story require them to be treated separately. I don't know if there is a surviving Breton equivalent, but if there is he'll have a distinctive Breton name and story and should have his own article, obviously linking to the others.--Nicknack009 18:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Scottish (i.e. Gaelic) colonization of northern Britain was mostly post-christian, that is true; but that makes little difference, as virtually all Gaelic mythology is recorded in the christian era. The Scots and Irish do need to be treated as one people for almost all of the middle ages. The Scots themselves, until the 14th century at least, regarded Ireland as their homeland, and indeed many Scottish Gaelic myths are set in Ireland. Moreover, a new article on Gaelic mythology would simply replicate much of the fine stuff in this article. The only reason I'm ok with the current title is, like I said, because Irish is frequently used were Gaelic is blatantly meant (e.g. Imperator Scottorum equalling Emperor of the Irish rather than the more accurate High King of the Gaels; or Middle Irish; or the Irish Kings of Scotland). It's not the job of wikipedia, after all, to correct imperfect scholarly habits. If it were, I'd be all for moving the article. - Calgacus 18:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Some of these stories are not religious in nature. Many of them continued past the Christianization of Ireland and were accepted as historical or folk tales. This page should not be renamed 'stories of the Irish religion' it would be akin to describing Paul Bunyan as part of the American religion.

But exactly the same thing can be said about the Bible. And yet LMS still moved Christian Mythology to The stories of Christianity -- so if we are to be neutral, we must do the same thing to Irish mythology. Also, even if they survived the arrival of Christianity as folk tales, they were religious stories to begin with. -- SJK

A few points I'd like to make.

  • The statement re Scotland and Ireland is a bit sweeping. There is a distinct limit to the spread of Irish as a language inSscotland in the prehistoric era basically just the Nort West.It would probably be truer to view Irish-speaking areas of scotland between the 5th and 9th centuries to actually be an part of Ireland, culturally at least. Plus all the major source documents are of Irish origin.
  • Of the 4 cycles. the Mythological is entitirely devoted to 'events' in Ireland, the Ulster has a short section on the training of Cuchulainn that is set in scotland and the Historical deals with semi-historical Irish kings. Only the Fenian has a significant Scottish element.
  • Irish mythology is a perfectly respectable academic label, and has been since at least the mid 19th century.
  • There is no real evidence for considering Irish mythology as being in any way religious. The religious element is a mix of introductions by Chriatian scribes, Victorias and new age hipie-dippy types.The 'gods' were apparently not worshipped and are, in fact, more like the heros of Greek mythology. Would you say that Norse mythology, Greek mythology, etc should be moved, too?


I would like to restructure this article to give more information on the sources, nature and structure of Irish mythology and have made a brief start at User:Bmills/Irish mythology. Also of interest (maybe) is Táin Bó Cúailnge. Bmills 13:06, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Here is the text I am overwriting:

Irish mythology is the collection of tales and beliefs out of Celtic folklore and religion in Ireland, mostly prior to the widespread introduction of Christianity. Major legendary cycles that have survived to the present day include the Tain and the Fenian cycle.

Topics in Irish mythology

Festivals and Seasons

Gods and Goddesses

Heroes and Heroines

Legendary creatures

Places

Miscellaneous

Accounts and Writings

Other sources

Also see

External links

Children of Lir

I've changed the Tragedy of the Children of Lir from one of the "greatest" Irish stories to one of the best known, partly because it's a value judgement and therefore not NPOV, but also because, as an Irish mythology buff, I think it's one of the worst. Personal taste and all that. --Nicknack009 08:39, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Same person?

Is Dian different from Dian Cecht?--Confuzion 22:47, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Gaelic mythology

I redirected the article Gaelic mythology here. It was created by User:Eog1916 based completely from the information found here, with a few minor changes. « Keith 

Eog1916 06:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)eog1916 Dear Keith,

Thanks for the comments. The English version of Misplaced Pages is rather too ethnocentric for a world audience. I think that it is important that we refrain from using terminology that is politically or otherwise loaded. Many other language groups resort to using the English version as the template for their own versions and it is surely important that we divest ourselves of as mush of our anglophilic/phobic thoughts whilst composing articles! Celtic or Gaelic Mythology and not Irish Mythology would be a much better heading for these articles. I spend most of my time on other language versions of Misplaced Pages ( mainly the gaelic version) and am not that well versed in the editorial end...please forgive me.

Celtic mythology is a wider subject, including the mythologies of the British and continental Celtic-speaking peoples. Gaelic mythology is perhaps arguable, but apart from some Fenian ballads it is overwhelmingly Irish, i.e. originating in Ireland, written in Ireland in the Irish language, and set in Ireland. --Nicknack009 11:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I should point out that I know nothing about Irish/Gaelic mythology or mythology in general. I created the redirect for no other reason than Gaelic mythology was just copied from here. The page contained nothing to merit an article of it's own. « Keith 

I always thought that the Celts were the people who came to anf from Ireland over to Scotland and Gaelic was the language they spoke (and speak still today in different form). Can someone elaborate for me please?

The current title is rather awkward. Irish mythology should refer to the mythology of Ireland, which would include Gaelic mythology, but also any myths by any non-Gaelic Irish people - English has been in Ireland for 8 centuries and Dublin, Ireland's current capital, hasn't been Gaelic speaking for over a millenium. In practice, "Irish mythology" is being used to mean "Gaelic mythology", which is blatantly Hibernocentric. It is undeniable that most Gaelic mythology is Irish, in respect of geographical focus and manuscript preservation. Yet, as Scotland is not in Ireland, surely Gaelic mythology is best for preserving NPOV? It's funny because before the growth of Irish nationalist romanticism in the 19th century, most people in Europe identified Gaelic mythology with Scotland (e.g. MacPherson's Ossian). I speak as a Scotsman, and therefore accussable of bias. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 11:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Was not Ossain a make-up by MacPherson? He claimed he secretly collected that mythology somewhere in the highlands. The problem was that no one else in Scotland ever heard of these "mythology" stories. MacPherson never gave the "source" of his writings, so he never defended himself against Dr Johnson, and was totally discredited, though some die-hards still try to spin the myth. About 75% of Ireland was Irish-speaking until about 1850. Why would Scotland want to appropriate Irish mythology? Manopingo 02:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)