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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TL500 (talk | contribs) at 17:48, 2 March 2007 (Listing of WA is not vandalism, it is the truth. Please don't suppress the truth.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

TL500 17:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

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Western Airlines dispute

There appears to be some confusion and dispute over Western Airlines. I have posted references, including the US Supreme Court noting that WA became a DL subsidiary in 1986. WA was operated as a separate brand. When some say the "merger" did not occur until 4/1/87, what really happened on that date was that the WA name ceased to exist on that date. However, in the 4 month period before that, WA was a seperate airline. Internal studies considered a permanently operated WA (rejected), adopting the bare metal new WA livery and modifying the DL livery to also be bare metal (rejected).

It is not vandalism to assert the above. Rather, suppression of this information is puzzling to this editor because the above is factual and a historical oddity.

Is LAX really a hub?

On Delta's international expansion video, Delta mentioned LAX as a hub. However, how much traffic does LAX handle compared to Delta's other focus cities. Has LAX surpassed LGA, MCO, and BOS yet? If not, then LAX is not a true hub. Andros 1337 14:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

On Delta's website, under Stats & Facts, the hubs listed are ATL, CVG, JFK, and SLC. LAX is listed as a "major international gateway", but not a hub. DB (talk) 19:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not like they edit the corporate fact sheet very often. They didn't put JFK in as a hub until long after they called it such and it was functioning as a hub in the network. I won't modify the hub sheet to call LAX a hub, but if their network video calls it a hub, and the network at LAX is developing discernable banks, then its nobody's business to NOT call it a hub. A hub DOES NOT have to be some monster like Atlanta, connecting 1000 flights in multiple directions. People call 6 destinations and 15 something flights at AMS an NW hub, and NRT a hub for UA and NW. (gustoj820)

DELTA HUB STRUCTURE AT LAX (by gustoj820)

7:00 to 8:00 regional flights leave LAX for regional destinations (and traffic off Hawaii)

9:00 to 10:00 regional flights return to LAX to feed Mexico RJS and transcons/miscellaneous

11:00 to 2:00 flights depart to Mexico (and 11:00ish transcons)

3:00 to 4:30 flights return to Los Angeles from Mexico

6:00 to 7:00 regional flights leave LAX for regional destinations (feeding of Mexico flights)

8:00 to 9:00 regional flights return to LAX to feed large redeye bank transcons/Latin America

10:00 to Midnight transcon and Latin America mainline departures

Furthermore, if you book flights around the west, journey control is now programmed to recognize and flow people through LAX. Delta's press releases have been calling LAX a hub/gateway (gustoj820).

For more on the topic, read the section below on "LAX as a secondary hub vs. other focus cities".

^ Delta Air Lines Plan Of Reorganization (LAX included in 5 hubs/gateways, pgs 23 and 24) (PDF). Retrieved on 2006-12-20. 75.82.197.123 08:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

CVG Closing Speculation - Nonsense

• Someone mentioned that the lack of new two class "Songisized" routes out of Cincinnati was some kind of indication or harbinger that Delta was going to close the CVG hub. This I can confidently say is nonsense. The reason for this quite frankly is that Delta pretty much controls the entire Cincinnati market, and does not feel the need to deploy this service there immediately because it has no competition. In Atlanta, Salt Lake City, and New York, Delta is plagued by serious competition from Jet Blue, Southwest, and AirTran, and thus must put its most competitive product forth in those markets to retain loyalty, revenue premiums, and marketshare. Delta faces no such competition in Cincinnati, and for the most part, not alot of competition in midwest markets that connect through Cincinnati. Don't worry though - CVG will eventually get the premium 1700+ mile "Songisized" service when Delta rolls out more complimentary aircraft. Right now, the other markets in jeopardy need all the "Songisized" planes they can get.
• By the way, post-bankruptcy and post-rightsizing, Cincinnati has become the most profitable hub.

Accidents, deaths, etc.

Strong work, everyone! The accident section was very incomplete with only about 3 crashes listed as recently as a week or so ago. Now it's better. Some kids may be using this to help them write a report. If they get the facts incorrect or incomplete, that's bad.

New image

As you may have noticed, have replaced the old image with a different image. The old image was flawed stating it was a 767-400ER, while it was really a 767-300ER. It also stated that the image was N825MH, while it was really N131DN. Since wikipedia has many 767-300 images, I thought it would be better to have a 767-400. Andros 1337 22:57, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Newark

Doesn't Delta operate some international flights out of Newark? I think they do, but I could be wrong.

 Delta Air Lines Flight DL8579 on an Airbus A340 (jet) in coach class
       (operated by Air France as Flight AF19)

The above is an example of a Delta flight that is operated by Air France. The industry calls this a "code share". That's the only kind of delta international flights I can find out of EWR, but I only looked at LON and PAR.

To clarify my statement, "operated by Air France" means that you'll buy a Delta ticket, go to a Delta terminal and then get on an Air France plane. -Harmil 28 June 2005 18:31 (UTC)

Not necessarily ... usually you go to the terminal of the operating airline. At Newark, DL and AF are both in Terminal B, so it's one and the same. Josh59x 20:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• Delta operates no international flights out of Newark, however since Continental is a Skyteam partner, many of its flights are dual coded as Delta flights. Delta's international hubs (beyond Canada, Mexico, & the Caribbean) are ATL, JFK, &CVG. --Bravenav 04:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• I actually work for Delta at Newark so I can answer your questions best. Delta is currently contracted to operate the flights for both Air France and Alitalia both of which are codeshared. Check-in, baggage, boarding, flight ops is all done by Delta. The only thing we don't do is maintenance. Another interesting tidbit is that NW and KLM have the same set-up, even going as far as having each others plane hold the flight slot while the other takes a seasonal break. Maranomerau 08:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Size of focus cities

Delta's hubs are listed in order of size, starting with the largest hub. Could we arrange the focus cities in order of size as well? I do not know in what order they go.

• Good idea. I am not absolutely certain, but I believe they go: BOS, LAX, MCO, LGA. LAX used to be number 1 but with the scaling back of Asia ops, I think BOS has taken over -- especially with the addition of a huge new terminal there, and the focus on connection carriers to Canada and other northeast cities. Trevormartin227 19:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• Following up here. I have found the following links to specific airline passenger counts at Delta's focus cities (with the exception of BOS). Since Delta is beginning to consider BOS a hub, I will put it first in the order unless someone has information that I don't. MCO has 5,211,177 DL pax yearly; LGA has 4,738,034 DL pax yearly ; and LAX has 4,618,818 DL pax yearly . These are 2005 numbers. Guess I was off on my guess in my comment above...the actual order would be BOS, MCO, LGA, LAX. I will make these changes to the infobox.Trevormartin227 13:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Is there anywhere that Delta specifically spells out which cities are focus cities, or have we just reached a consensus that BOS, MCO, LAX, and LGA are the only focus cities? What statistic specifically cuts off FLL and DCA, because these are very large DL cities that serve many point to point routes outside of the hubs and top four focus cities (which I thought was the definition of "focus city")? How do you find it appropriate to say that FLL is a "non-focus city"?

Hubs

According to its own in-flight magazine (SKY), which contains a route map, Boston is considered a Delta hub. Delta operates many domestic-to-international connections through Boston, and is ramping up these operations even more as DL shifts to focus more on international routes. Trevormartin227 22:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• The only domestic to international connections at BOS are to Canada. BOS is a focus city.--Bravenav 04:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Fleet infobox changes

I think that the new "routes" addition still looks messy. Instead of listing cities that these aircraft fly to, I think it would be more appropriate just to describe the routes (as in, "long-haul" "high-density" etc, rather than the routings themselves). These planes get changed around a lot, and, for example, I flew a 767-400ER to LAS from ATL and don't see that on there, I'm sure there are a hundred other examples. Better just to have general description. Trevormartin227 13:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The AA article has a similar feature, and thought that it would be appropriate. Andros 1337 15:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed simplified (and updated) Fleet Chart

This is the Delta Airlines Fleet (as of September 30, 2005) via the Delta website

Any comments?

Oppose. The AA article mentions the routes that the aircraft serve. I would prefer to remove the orders/options section instead. BTW, as a convention, we do NOT include regional jets. Andros 1337 22:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

---

I was under the impression that we wanted to standardize the fleet information for all airlines. This would include (at least) orders, but not include information like engines, whether they have AV, ETOPS, etc. In addition, the chart is so wide, that the orders in the fleet column is wrapped to a new line and looks awkward.

Would you be open to removing the engine, cargo, etops and av columns? Maybe we can standardize on the follow columns:

Done. Hope you like it. Andros 1337 17:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

As for the CRJ, Delta has two pages, one that lists CRJ as thier own aircraft and another that lists them as part of Delta Connection. I guess you could assume that Delta does not operate CRJ themselves.

---mnw2000

• Nice work. Trevormartin227 18:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• To clarify the CRJ ownership, the numbers appear to refer to the Comair owned CRJs, but should not be considered as part of the Delta mainline fleet.--Bravenav 04:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• actuly Delta Connetion has a few EMB-120 turbo-props (Racerboy 19:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC))

Fleet Updates

Please include the source of the recent fleet updates in a line before the fleet chart.

--mnw2000

Service to Africa

North American Airlines, in fact, does offer scheduled service to Africa. The claim made here that Delta will be the only US airline to offer scheduled service to Africa is false.

North American Airlines is an all-charter airline. Delta is the only US airline to offer regularly-scheduled service to Africa. The claim remains true and should remain in the article. Trevormartin227 12:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Upon further research, I stand corrected. Trevormartin227 12:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delta is the only major airline (as defined by DOT) to connect the continents.--Bravenav 04:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Delta/Northwest?

I'm hearing a couple of rumors from insiders that Delta Air Lines could soon merge with Northwest Airlines. If the merger happens, it will work since Delta doesn't really have an Asia network, Boeing 747s, or a hub outside of the US while NWA will have a New York hub, routes to Africa, and routes to South America. Both are in bankruptcy and combined forces would lead to a very powerful US airline.

and create a super-bankrupt airline. The fleets are a mismatch, and Delta's CEO has stated that they plan to exit bankruptcy as a standalone airline. Andros 1337 00:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• The Delta/NWA merger idea was voiced by Norman Mineta in response to the USAir buyout by America West. While Mineta was DOT secretary, he is hardly an airline insider. Both Delta and Northwest have denounced any such rumors, and most airlines consultants reject the notion as a terrible idea. In addition to the fleet mismatch, Northwest is very unionized, while Delta is union-free (except the pilots).--Bravenav 04:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Delta Air Lines Routes

You folks might be interested in this thing's AFD. It seems to duplicate the function of Delta Air Lines destinations. Kappa 00:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Delta's new international destinations

One user has been inserting the following intl destinations to the article beginning Summer 2007:

• Atlanta-Seoul
• Atlanta-Prague
• Atlanta-Dubai
• Atlanta-Vienna
• New York (JFK)-Pisa

I went and entered the destination into the airline's online schedule and the flight does exist. Should these be reverted until a final confirmation from the airline or should they remain? Bucs2004 04:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hub History

Hello, I am wondering, as it states on the top of the article, it says that JFK-New York and other cities and airports, should we add them to the "Hub History" part of the article?

Jelleh 30 00:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger with US Airways

Do you think a section should be incorporated about the proposed merger (essentially a US Airways Buyout) with Delta? There is a great amount of information avaliable from usairways.com

link: US Airways Merger Proposal

thoughts?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.193.203.12 (talk • contribs) 08:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC).

Someone added it; I've marked the article as a current event. AUTiger ʃ /_work 21:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Delta Focus City in Columbus?

Can Port Columbus International Airport be added to the "Focus Cities" list?

Its not one of there major focus cities so I dont think it should be added.Brandon W 15:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Spurious transactions

This article was 48k, which is a bit on the long side. I removed the text below from the "Fleet transformation" after reading it, and thinking, "oh why do we care???" The details of a company's buying and selling equipment is appropriate to the business news, but not an encyclopedia article. The remaining text in the section could probably be condensed. If there are any trends that can be extracted from the removed text that are truly notable for the company or for the industry in general, those can hopefully be summarized much more briefly. -- Beland 09:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Longer article is better as long as the information written is good. Some kid may be trying to write a paper for school.

Continuing Delta's fleet transformation efforts, the airline plans to retire four more aircraft types, and in the past two years, the airline has retired its fleet of Boeing 737-200, -300, and 767-200 aircraft. There are reports that Delta plans to eliminate its MD-88 or MD-90 fleet.

Replacement aircraft are currently unknown, although it is expected that the MD-88 or MD-90 will be replaced by a Boeing 737 family aircraft, probably the 737-800. However, in August 2005, Delta announced the 737-300s operating their Delta Shuttle services would be replaced by nine MD-88s from their discontinued Dallas hub and from Salt Lake City, with a consequent rise in capacity (14 seats per aircraft) and provision of premium services on those routes.

On September 7, 2005, Delta announced that it had struck a deal whereby Ohio-based ABX Air Inc. will purchase 11 Boeing 767-200 aircraft from Delta, adding to the one previously purchased through a similar arrangement made in July 2005. The new agreement calls for ABX Air to take delivery of six of the eleven aircraft in calendar year 2006, two in 2007 and three in 2008, with payment due upon the delivery of each aircraft. The total deal is worth $190 million. Delta donated the company's first 767-200, The Spirit of Delta to the Delta Heritage Museum. The Spirit of Delta was retired on March 3, 2006 after a farewell tour around the United States. After 2008, when through these arrangements all other 767-200 aircraft will have been sold, the two remaining 767-200s will be sent to the same desert storage location where the majority of the company's L-1011's were located prior to sale.

On July 13, 2006, Delta signed an agreement with International Lease Finance Corporation to lease ten Boeing 757s currently operated by American Airlines and formerly by Trans World Airlines, which American Airlines intends to drop once the leases expire due to the fact that they use Pratt & Whitney PW2000 engines instead of Rolls-Royce RB211 engines. Unlike most of Delta's 757s, the ex-TWA 757s are ETOPS-rated, which means that they can be used on routes such as from the West Coast to Hawaii, or on low-yielding transatlantic routes from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City. In addition to the ten ex-TWA 757s leased from ILFC, Delta has also signed on October 25, 2006 an agreement with Pegasus Aviation Finance Company to lease three additional ex-TWA ETOPS 757s.

In addition to acquiring ex-TWA 757s, Delta has also announced on October 17, 2006 that they intend to have their 24 domestic non-ER Boeing 767-300s ETOPS-rated by 2007 , opening them up to destinations such as Hawaii and northwestern Europe, thus freeing Boeing 767-400ER aircraft for longer-range international destinations.

Delta Air Lines has become the US launch customer for Boeing’s 777-200LR and will take delivery of two General Electric GE90-powered ultra long range widebodies in early 2008. The two -200LRs are converted from a 777-200ER order previously placed with Boeing, bring the total to 10 777-200LR aircraft.

Could the details remaining in "Fleet transformation" be merged with "Retired fleet" and just a summary of the trijet-to-twinjet shift be left in the History section? -- Beland 09:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Press release syndrome

I have marked the "2000 and beyond" section for cleanup because it reads as if it were a summary of all the major (and some minor) press releases Delta has put out in the past few years. It needs to be sifted through to remove or reduce coverage of unimportant marketing initiatives. Most of it is also unreferenced; if the actual press releases are cited, readers can go there for more information if they actually care. The general style also needs to be more varied, so that every paragraph doesn't start with the date, and perhaps to group items thematically rather than strictly chronologically. -- Beland 09:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Destinations

This section is no more of an advertisement than any other airline including United Airlines. I think it is formatted the same way. I think it should have just the cleanup tag on it's own as the airline pages are being cleaned up. I'll remove the "advertising" flag, leaving only the cleanup.

airboyd 07:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It sounded rather self-promotional to me; Misplaced Pages:Avoid peacock terms may also be applicable to phrases like "more places than any other carrier in the world." It would perhaps read not quite so much like an advertisement for all the new and exciting places Delta can take you if the new destinations were simply integrated into the complete list, rather than being called out separately. The United Airlines article certainly suffers some of the same problems. -- Beland 18:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm currently improving on the destinations section putting each section by date. I think in my mind activily announcing new updates on the destinations of the airline would help improve the article by bring it up to date and in speed on what's going on within the airline. Sure sometimes people can pin point it as advertising, but at least it is informative to the person reading it. Spongefan 23:37, December 4 2006 (UTC)]

I think we should high-light the bredth of Delta's network under destinations; perhaps identify unique or important destinations. After discussing figures (number of cities, number of countries, et cetera), a seperate heading called "Future Destinations" should be written. That is where one can discuss, list, and highlight Delta's rapid growth. The current section is icky.

Date for Dakar Route

"On December 4th, Delta began flights to Dakar, Senegal with continuing service to Johannesburg, South Africa from Atlanta, making Delta the only major U.S. airline to serve Africa"

Don't you think there should be a YEAR to go with December 4th??

Dc197 01:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

LAX revisited

I don't think LAX is a true hub as of yet. Delta still ranks behind United, American, and Southwest at LAX, and only United offically calls LAX a hub. Andros 1337 20:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Delta's corporate info page still lists LAX as an "international gateway", but only SLC, CVG, JFK, and ATL as hubs. DB (talk) 21:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

^ Delta Air Lines Plan Of Reorganization (LAX included in 5 hubs/gateways, pgs 23 and 24) (PDF). Retrieved on 2006-12-20. 75.82.197.123 08:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

E.I.S.

Let's see here. For the past couple of weeks, I have been criticized because I capitalize things such as an abbreviation E.I.S. (Entry Into Service). Last time I checked, it is proper American grammar to capitalize abbreviations such as E.I.S. why do you think there are periods in between the letters?--Golich17 03:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed on the fleet page, the Manual of Style page, and your talk page - consensus and proper English have dictated that there's no need to capitalize "entry into service" when spelled out. --Matt 04:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Cabin

Shouldn't the picture in the cabin section be of the cabin, and not the exterior?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nmicon (talk • contribs) 23:43, January 7, 2007 (UTC)

You have a good point there!--Golich17 01:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

New Cabin Classes/ Other Divisions

I'm too busy at the moment, but Delta has put up more detailed progress/plans for its cabin upgrades on its website, in a press release.

Also, should another section be made for the numerous odd-ball divisions that Delta has (including DAL Global, Delta Technology, Delta Airelite, and the Delta Flight Academy). They are kind of on side-line (especially DAL Global which does things as varied as security officers, temp staffing, etc). 129.252.70.10 17:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Lack of 777s or Too Many 767s

What is the reasoning behind Delta's lack of 777 aircraft? They have only 8.

From my perspective as a current employee of Delta, one of the reasons for this is the overabundance of 767s. Delta's restructuring called for more international expansion and reduction in mainline domestic widebody service (e.g. ATL-MCO on a 764). We have the most 767s of any U.S. airline, which has allowed DL to easily expand to these new international routes. We don't have 777s because we can't afford too many, nor do we need them at the present. We just ordered 5 777 Worldliners. The only routes they use them for is Mumbai, Tokyo, Tel Aviv and most likely Dubai and Seoul. Believe it or not Johannesburg and Dakar are done with a 767-400. 8 (soon to be 13) 777s is plenty for now.

Maranomerau 08:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous Trivia

Most of the added trivia iIS trivial, and mostly uncited. I'm weeding through it. SiberioS 07:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice cleanup some of those were idiotic at best.. Now we just need to cite whats left.. EnsRedShirt 08:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I took out the bit about Delta serving regional airports up until the late 1990's, mostly because its untrue. Delta mainline STILL serves a number of regional airports with mainline aircraft (notably the MD-88's), including my own hometown airport of Columbia Metropolitan. The ref to Delta selling its flight route to NW was deleted because its simply not important. Lots of route transactions have occured in the history of airlines, and not every single one can be, nor should be, tracked on a encyclopedia entry, unless it has some significant/historical value (which a route to London doesn't exactly cut it). SiberioS 03:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The 2000's

Most of the stuff in the 2000's of the historical section are uncited, vague, and now out of date. Also some of the points contained in, including an odd-ball reference to Delta's ontime performance (something that is not mentioned in most other airlines pages since it is un-encyclopedic, and also highly variable due to weather and system delays). I'll go through most of it and slim it down. SiberioS 00:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The DOT's performance records for one month are unencyclopedic, and irrelevant. On-time performance, ESPECIALLY in the winter months, is highly dependent on weather factors, compounded by hub slowdowns. Cherry picking one month out of a year, and using that to illustrate system wide, year round on time performance is simply WRONG. If someone wants to cite consecutive years of annual statistics in order to illustrate a broader point, thats fine, but one month doesn't cut it. SiberioS 17:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It's amusing to note that from January 2006 to November 2006, Delta's ontime performance has been 75%, and most of the delays, some 10% were due to slowdowns in the national air traffic network. SO no, Delta Airlines does not have a poor performance record vis a vis other airlines. And comparing a hub and spoke model airline to one like Southwest, which flies point to point, is also unfair, since they are not affected by system wide slow downs in the same way SiberioS 17:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Frequent Flyer Paragraph

I deleted the one paragraph from the article because it was only tenously connected to Delta's specific frequent flyer program (including a rather unverified statement that frequent flyer programs were "best" in the late 80's). It might be more appropiate for the general frequent flyer program article, talking about the changing rules and rewards of frequent flyer programs. SiberioS 22:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Accidents

It is not appropiate to bring talk discussions, such as inflammatory accusations against other wikipedia editors, on the article page itself. I deleted the inflammatory paragraph, and if you want to discuss certain editing practices you do it ON HERE, the tal page, where it belongs.

Personally I think the accident/hijackings bit has gotten out of control. I DO NOT think that non-mainline flights should be included, for the same reason why you don't call an accomplice to a murder the murderer; Delta was not involved in the pilot training and or maintenance of these airplanes, with the exception of Comair and ASA (when they were owned by Delta). Otherwise, the crashes should be put under the company that actually flew the plane. Otherwise, it presents a skewed view of Delta's record, and keeps the real record of some of these affiliate carriers hidden (unless susbequent editing on their respective pages is also done). SiberioS 18:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

A clarification, as the three incidents on the page now fall under fully owned subsidararies, its still good I think, but no other accidnets from uninvolved companies should be mentioned.SiberioS 18:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Connection flights shouldn't be listed at all. While Comair is owned by Delta, it has its own operating certificate and employees. A crash on Comair is not marked on Delta's accident record with the NTSB. DB (talk) 20:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

They should just be moved then to their respective airline pages (which may in fact have already been done, I haven't checked the Comair and ASA articles). 129.252.106.57 00:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Full disclosure is better than covering up, like they did in Watergate. We should list all accidents of Delta and Delta Connection. Passengers book tickets with Delta and routinely get shoved to Delta Connection flights. If we continue to be deceptive and hide this information, we should at least tell the public that we are censoring information. Before, when we listed Delta Connection accidents, there was a CLEAR disclaimer that the accidents were Delta Connection. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.33.202.2 (talk • contribs).

This isn't about covering anything up - it's a content dispute. Frankly, I agree with you about listing Connection flights in the incidents table - for example, it looks like US Airways' article lists Express flights, but let's calm with the reverting and discuss things here. --Matt 01:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, looks like US Airways doesn't list express. Don't mind me! Nor does United. --Matt 19:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Accidents involving Delta Connection are relevant. The reason it is called Delta Connection is simply they are contracted to transport Delta's passengers. The passengers on this flight bought Delta tickets, flew on a plane with a Delta paintjob and most likely were connecting to or from the mainline. So when a DCI carrier experiences and incident or accident, just like a child, the parent company will suffer as well. Maranomerau 07:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Then provide a link to the section of the Delta Connection article that lists DL Conn. incidents. Actually, I'll do it. This is an article about Delta, not the Connection carriers. While in a passenger's mind, an accident on a Connection carrier might reflect on the company, factually it doesn't. The FAA and the NTSB will not cite Delta for any accidents or other violations committed by their regional partners. They have their own operating certificates, and legally, are separate entities. By the logic employed by some here, if a carrier has an accident, then the crash should be listed all other airlines codesharing on that flight. DB (talk) 19:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I also agree that it has gotten out of hand. Hijackings are not imporant. Hijackings seem to take up to much space for something so little in importance.

US Airways takeover a current event?

It's been a good week since Delta creditors rejected US Airways buyout of Delta Air Lines. Is the failed hostile takover attempt section of the Delta Air Lines article still considered to be a current event? Spongefan 20:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed. Andros 1337 02:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

LAX as Secondary Hub vs. Other Focus Cities

LAX is probably not a hub...yet, but it strongly deserves a different classification than the other focus cities. LAX is being designed with banks for connectivity to/from Mexico and Latin America, as well as regional connections to transcon/redeye flights. The other focus cities are NOT designed with this degree of connectivity in mind, nor are they ever referenced as a hub/gateway like Delta and various other sources have recognized LAX to be.

Therefore, it seems appropriate that LAX be classified differently as a secondary hub, but not a hub. I've updated this as such on the article. Gustoj820 05:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

LAX as a Secondary Hub I don't know what you fancy a secondary hub to be, but Delta's LAX operation certainly satisfies the common definition. There is an 10am-11am bank, 4:30pm-6:00pm bank, and a 9:20pm to 11:30pm bank (where the incoming regional flights connect to the Latin America and numerous transcon flights) - that's essentially two banks. There are also connections off early morning Hawaii to those regional flights, as well as the night arriving HNL flight to the transcon flights, and the PSP flight is almost all connecting. Perhaps you'd like to talk to the 29 people on the OAK-LAX 9:20pm arrival flight who were all connecting on the redeye flights, including 7 to TPA. From SFO-MSY, BOS-PSP, HNL-BDL, LAS-GDL, SEA-LMM, RNO-MZT, and I could go on and on with city pairs. Why do you think the outbound transcons are being retimed at 11am-ish and 10pm-ish? So they can connect to the regional flights.

The focus cities like MCO, BOS, and LGA have a large amount of flights with arbitary departure times - that's why they are focus cities. It doesn't matter if LAX is smaller. It's being redesigned with a high degree of connectivity in mind, and hence is called "a secondary hub" because it doesn't have the amount of banks and full fledged connectivity as a regular "hub". 65-70 average flights per day is nothing to deride either.

^ Delta Air Lines Plan Of Reorganization (LAX included in 5 hubs/gateways, pgs 23 and 24) (PDF). Retrieved on 2006-12-20. 75.82.197.123 08:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The new infobox looks really bad. Either make LAX a regular focus city, or bring back the secondary hub box. The new "gateway" formatting looks awful. Andrewb729 02:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages encyclopedia or unintentional Delta Mouthpiece/Stooge?

I believe that the Delta article should be neutral (in line with Misplaced Pages policy) and also point out critical aspects/questions that a reader should consider. This is not to say that the article should savage Delta.

No it shouldn't. This isn't an airline review site. We do infact include a link to reviews of Delta's quality from customers in the external link section. SiberioS 02:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, the article should not be so positively slanted toward Delta as to violate the Misplaced Pages policy. Delta is a reasonable entity that can stand on its own merits.

One example, with due respect for the effort and presumed good intent of the editor, is the Delta Crown Room section. It sounds to me like an advertisement. The person who is studying Delta would probably be more interested in knowing how the Crown Room is different from other airline clubs from a historical standpoint.

It, like alot of other things on various corporation pages, does suffer from press-release speak, but its not especially bad to say its not NPOV.

A similar issue was how we treated Delta Connection flights. Delta appears to claim those flights as its own until there's a crash, then it says it wasn't their flight. The honest way would be to carefully note how new routes are actually Delta Connection routes or to claim those routes for Delta AND claim the Comair accidents as Delta accidents.

We've already had this argument, see above. The accidents aren't included because, quite simply the NTSB nor the FAA includes them as such. There are reasons why they make that distinction, and thats because they fly under different operating certificates.

Yet another way where we may (or may not) be straying from Misplaced Pages policy is to tell the reader about the different classes of services. Sounds like an ad to me. Shouldn't we say that there is business class, that DL followed other airlines into this market, and that their business class seat is inferior to others (but that there are plans to change this). This would help the kid writing a paper much more than having the kid write a Delta ad. TL500 22:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC) TL500 Feb 17 2006

Again, we are not an airline review site, and the service thing is really an issue of opinion, and most of all, price. While its nice to think we could all fly SQ first class, its not really fair to compare airlines with significantly different route/destination maps, price levels, and markets to other ones. It's also not especially fair to do so in an encyclopedia article.. SiberioS 02:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Then howabout we move the new service by Delta Connection to the Delta Connection article? And, by the way, Jon Stewart would be proud of your use of the question mark in the title. --Matt 23:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think DL Connection info should be in the Delta article, except a short paragraph about it and then a {{further}} Delta Connection. DB (talk) 23:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Delta Crown Room Club Locations

We have discussed this before and we came to the decision to merge such pages into the actual airline page. Having the locations listed gives the reader a little insight as to where these Crown Clubs are located, which I believe is enough information to keep it on this page.--Golich17 21:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be there at all. The agreement was to merge the page in and not have a separate article on a non-notable service of a company. A list of locations is just a directory and is easily accessible via the external link provided. DB (talk) 02:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with DB - I don't think we should have a list of locations either. --Matt 02:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for keeping an external link that goes directly to the list of locations (not just the airline homepage), however. DB (talk) 02:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep, should have been clearer, I agree with that too --Matt 17:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Original research

The paragraph added by TL500 should be removed as it is original research, both uncited and attempting to inject analysis above and beyond citable sources. If one wants to cite press-releases, financial analysis from reputable sources, or even Delta's own re-organization plan, than I think that would be acceptable. But one's opinion (which as it stands now, with no citations) to me is not useful to anyone. If people want that sort of unsourced speculation they can post on A.net SiberioS 04:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I figured I would just remove the paragraph, since its uncited, is not especially relevant to a page about Delta, and is mostly speculation. I'll write up a paragraph under the reorganization header about what Delta PLANS to do in order to stay survivable, citing from its own reorganization plan. SiberioS 18:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

People need to be really careful about uncited analysis. I just removed a line from the fleet section that suggested Delta's 777 fleet was being stretched "thin" by international expansion. What the hell does that mean? Most people would call that heavy utilization, something generally considered positive (and noted as a hallmark in other airline pages, notably Southwest and Emirates). As I mentioned before, this isn't A.net, where unsourced, "I heard from my friend in TechOps", armcahir CEO speculation runs free and wild, contributing to "Truth" by saying it enough times. SiberioS 22:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Western Airlines

I got a message, excerpt: Western was never a brand under Delta. The merger was announced in September of 1986, but Western was still a public company(there for not part of Delta) on the NYSE until April 1, 1987 (date the merger was completed). The moment at which the merger was completed(April 1 at 8:30 A.M.), all Western Airlines flights were changed over to Delta flights and Western Airlines was dissolved. Western couldn't have become a part of Delta on the day the merger was announced because every shareholder must be sent a proxy statement to vote on whether a merger should occur. Also Delta had to wait until the early morning of April 1 (around 2:00 A.M.) to complete the merger because Supreme Court had to rule on an order from a lower court blocking the merger. I checked in a book I have that was publishedby Delta on its history saying that the merger didnt close until April 1, 1987. Historically, it is very rare for an airline to have two mainline brands, although one exemption is U.S. Airways. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I'm just trying to get the right information out for the Delta page.

Response: The US Supreme Court noted that WA was already a subsidiary of Delta. They were traded on the NYSE but DL already owned essentially all of the shares before then. The Supreme Court cases (footnote in article) was about the Teamsters Union trying to block integration of the workforce, which was unsuccesful when the Court ruled against them on 4/2/87. Although DL never intended to run 2 separate brands (WA and DL) they did so for 4 months with a planned integration date of 4/1/87. This is reasonable because airlines are so complex that you can't buy the company AND change all of the operations in one day.

As a compromise, I have included this info AND footnotes as well as not putting a bullet next to the Western entry (unlike the bullets next to Song and Delta Express). This should help satisfy those that like accuracy and details as well as those who like to list only the airline brands that DL operated for a long time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TL500 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

1. "iWon Money & Investing". Retrieved 2006-09-17.
2. "Delta Newsroom". Retrieved 2006-09-17.
3. "Airliners.net Civil Aviation: Three More 757s For Delta". Retrieved 2006-10-30.
4. "Delta To Acquire Former AA 757s, Modify 767s For Intl. Service". Retrieved 2006-10-17.

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