Talk:List of sovereign states

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Date	Process	Result
January 22, 2006	Featured list candidate	Promoted
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July 16, 2011	Articles for deletion	Kept
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On 7 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of countries. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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Donetsk and Luhansk, one final time

Putin has signed the ratified annexation treaties, meaning that the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics, in the form of self-proclaimed sovereign states, do not exist anymore. They should be removed. AxolotlsAreCool (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, i concur, now is the point at which they (or Russia) consider themselves to be sovereign states. If Syria or North Korea affirmatively says that they still recognize them as sovereign states, they should be readded (like the Baltic state were recognized pre-1991).XavierGreen (talk) 13:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

This isn't really like the Baltic states, which claimed to be independent despite Soviet objections. The DPR and LPR no longer consider themselves independent because they have joined Russia via (fraudulent) referendums, and Russia has recognized this. AxolotlsAreCool (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Correct. The DPR and LPR don't even recognise themselves as independent sovereign states, so it ultimately doesn't really matter what North Korea and Syria think. There is no such thing as a "DPR/LPR government in exile". The DPR and LPR have happily annexed themselves into Russia. There's no armed resistance from them (note: not the same deal with the Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast of Ukraine, which are actively resisting Russian annexation). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 16:28, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Bear in mind that there is the minor technicality of the fact that Russia actually annexed both the DPR/LPR and the Donetsk/Luhansk Oblasts of Ukraine. Russia never recognised the two Oblasts in the first place (after 2014), but the DPR/LPR did not control the entirety of the Oblasts from 2014 to 2022, with large portions remaining under Ukrainian control. When Russia recognised the DPR/LPR in February 2022, it "recognised them within their original borders", which supposedly means that Russia recognised the DPR/LPR as the legitimate authorities of the entire Oblasts (including Ukrainian-controlled parts). Subsequently, Russia annexed the entire territories of Donetsk and Luhansk under Russian control, including parts that were either under DPR/LPR rule for 7+ years or under Ukrainian rule prior to February 2022. Russia does not control a significant portion of Donetsk (still Ukrainian) and a small portion of Luhansk, although Russia has not recognised concrete borders, claiming that "the borders are for the people to decide". So, effectively, Russia is currently in a state of having "fluid borders", and we really cannot say what is going on because none of this makes sense. Putin's logic is in a world of its own. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@XavierGreen - I think you mean to say that "this is the point at which they no longer consider themselves to be sovereign states". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 15:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

For all intents and purposes, the DPR and the LPR are not countries anymore (not that I think they ever really were, but I digress). It seems that most of the regular editors of this page have decided to just sit around and wait for reliable sources to come trickling in. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Eh, well, I agree with their recent removal by AxolotlsAreCool. The ratification by Putin seems final enough. Theoretically, we do need to see whether North Korea and Syria will renounce their official recognitions, but that's merely a formality at this point. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 16:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Russia claimed administrative divisions

@Kahastok - The extent for Russia previously said that Russia had "85 federal subdivisions", and then mentioned that 2 of them (Crimea and Sevastopol) are disputed. However, I changed it to say that Russia has "83 internationally recognised federal subdivisions", and then I mentioned that Russia claims and partially/fully controls an additional 6 federal subdivisions (areas). The issue arises from Russia being officially a "Federation", which apparently means we need to list every single federal unit of Russia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 18:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Any sources that any of the federal divisions are "internationally recognised"? Domestic administration is generally a matter for the state. CMD (talk) 00:08, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The 6 extra federal divisions certainly are NOT internationally recognised, which is the more important fact. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:28, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Source that the international community cares at all about how Russia wants to carve up their claims? CMD (talk) 03:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

We can talk about semantics all you want. Russia could carve up 6 pieces into 7, 8, 9. It doesn't matter. If we list Russia's territory in square kilometres, it will be clear exactly how much is internationally recognised and how much isn't. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Correct, it doesn't matter. Leave that to articles which deal with territory in square kilometres. CMD (talk) 03:58, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

We don't distinguish between what other countries internal subdivisions (like India or China) are recognized or not, so why should Russia be singled out? The Russian government itself has 89 internal federal subjects, that's what the article should state.XavierGreen (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

We do distinguish between administrative divisions that are controlled versus claimed. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:11, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2022

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Some of Russia's claimed federal subjects are not recognized by the international community but some are at least by a few countries. Given controversial nature, why is it necessary to even specify the exact number of subjects on this page? Better say it's a federation and leave it at that. 2600:1700:20:1D80:A0A5:449D:F54D:EEC (talk) 05:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The entities within each federation are listed on this page due to the interaction between federations and sovereignty. However, they remain internal matters and are not generally the subject of international recognition.

That said, the specific number given is an interesting topic for consideration. Our treatment is currently inconsistent (noting particularly the entries for Comoros and Somalia). CMD (talk) 06:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Chechnya

Ukrainian recognition of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria - If this actually gets signed and ratified by Zelenskyy, then we will have to add the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria to this article, in the same way that we added Kherson Oblast and Zaporizhzhia Oblast. Glorious days might just be ahead of us. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

You draw the comparison, and say that we must include based on Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. Yet you opposed including Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, so your argument is a double standard.

Plus, there was never consensus to include Kherson and Zaporizhzhia on this article, so it is difficult to claim them as some kind of precedent.

I object to including Chechnya based on the sources we have available, which do not say that Ukraine proposes to recognise Chechnya as a sovereign state. Being recognised as occupied territory is manifestly different from being recognised as a sovereign state, and there are examples of cases where countries recognise the one but not the other. Kahastok talk 20:35, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Liberland (but here me out)

Liberland is possibly recognized by 4 (non-micronation) countries. The most known of these is Somaliland. (). Apparently the Liberland passport is valid in Colombia, and depending on how you think might count as being recognized (). Also Liberland is a vaild "ecominc parnter" with Malawi, () and one for a span of 5 years that started in 2020 with Haiti (). 2007Gtbot (talk) 16:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

The BBC source doesn't say that there was recognition, and Somaliland isn't a UN member state anyway. The others all fall under WP:SELFSOURCE, and fail at least two of the five requirements there. Specifically, the material makes exceptional claims about third parties.

What I see overall here is a micronation being a micronation. This is what micronations do. I see nothing that would suggest that this micronation meets the standard for inclusion here. Kahastok talk 17:44, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

These were less, sources I would use in an artical and more like sources so that I don't sound crazy. In and artical I would source the actural documents themself if possable. I just don't have the texts of the documents. 2007Gtbot (talk) 18:24, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

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