Talk:List of sovereign states

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by DatGuy (talk | contribs) at 10:18, 18 November 2022 (Reverted edits by 212.47.142.32 (talk) to last version by Vif12vf). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 10:18, 18 November 2022 by DatGuy (talk | contribs) (Reverted edits by 212.47.142.32 (talk) to last version by Vif12vf)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of sovereign states article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16Auto-archiving period: 30 days

List of sovereign states is a former featured list. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page and why it was removed. If it has improved again to featured list standard, you may renominate the article to become a featured list.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 22, 2006	Featured list candidate	Promoted
November 29, 2008	Featured list removal candidate	Demoted
March 3, 2009	Featured list candidate	Not promoted
July 16, 2011	Articles for deletion	Kept
March 12, 2012	Featured list candidate	Not promoted
Current status: Former featured list

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

This list has a detailed criteria for inclusion. Please do not add new entries without prior discussion. Items that do not fit the set criteria, such as Antarctica, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and polities normally classified as dependent territories, micronations, supranational unions or constituent political divisions will be removed.

This list has a detailed criteria for organization. Please do not change the categorizations in the table without prior discussion. Changes to the organization of the list of states that go against consensus will be reverted. For more details on the organization criteria, please review the discussion of criteria.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Countries

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry

WikiProject Countries to-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy.
Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries
Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region.
Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess.

Lists High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Politics High‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

International relations High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WP1.0

On 7 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of countries. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Archives

List of countries/Archive 1, 2, 3, 4

Discussion of criteria
- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Cook Islands and Niue

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Donetsk and Luhansk, one final time

Putin has signed the ratified annexation treaties, meaning that the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics, in the form of self-proclaimed sovereign states, do not exist anymore. They should be removed. AxolotlsAreCool (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, i concur, now is the point at which they (or Russia) consider themselves to be sovereign states. If Syria or North Korea affirmatively says that they still recognize them as sovereign states, they should be readded (like the Baltic state were recognized pre-1991).XavierGreen (talk) 13:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

This isn't really like the Baltic states, which claimed to be independent despite Soviet objections. The DPR and LPR no longer consider themselves independent because they have joined Russia via (fraudulent) referendums, and Russia has recognized this. AxolotlsAreCool (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Correct. The DPR and LPR don't even recognise themselves as independent sovereign states, so it ultimately doesn't really matter what North Korea and Syria think. There is no such thing as a "DPR/LPR government in exile". The DPR and LPR have happily annexed themselves into Russia. There's no armed resistance from them (note: not the same deal with the Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast of Ukraine, which are actively resisting Russian annexation). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 16:28, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Bear in mind that there is the minor technicality of the fact that Russia actually annexed both the DPR/LPR and the Donetsk/Luhansk Oblasts of Ukraine. Russia never recognised the two Oblasts in the first place (after 2014), but the DPR/LPR did not control the entirety of the Oblasts from 2014 to 2022, with large portions remaining under Ukrainian control. When Russia recognised the DPR/LPR in February 2022, it "recognised them within their original borders", which supposedly means that Russia recognised the DPR/LPR as the legitimate authorities of the entire Oblasts (including Ukrainian-controlled parts). Subsequently, Russia annexed the entire territories of Donetsk and Luhansk under Russian control, including parts that were either under DPR/LPR rule for 7+ years or under Ukrainian rule prior to February 2022. Russia does not control a significant portion of Donetsk (still Ukrainian) and a small portion of Luhansk, although Russia has not recognised concrete borders, claiming that "the borders are for the people to decide". So, effectively, Russia is currently in a state of having "fluid borders", and we really cannot say what is going on because none of this makes sense. Putin's logic is in a world of its own. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@XavierGreen - I think you mean to say that "this is the point at which they no longer consider themselves to be sovereign states". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 15:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

For all intents and purposes, the DPR and the LPR are not countries anymore (not that I think they ever really were, but I digress). It seems that most of the regular editors of this page have decided to just sit around and wait for reliable sources to come trickling in. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Eh, well, I agree with their recent removal by AxolotlsAreCool. The ratification by Putin seems final enough. Theoretically, we do need to see whether North Korea and Syria will renounce their official recognitions, but that's merely a formality at this point. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 16:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Russia claimed administrative divisions

@Kahastok - The extent for Russia previously said that Russia had "85 federal subdivisions", and then mentioned that 2 of them (Crimea and Sevastopol) are disputed. However, I changed it to say that Russia has "83 internationally recognised federal subdivisions", and then I mentioned that Russia claims and partially/fully controls an additional 6 federal subdivisions (areas). The issue arises from Russia being officially a "Federation", which apparently means we need to list every single federal unit of Russia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 18:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Any sources that any of the federal divisions are "internationally recognised"? Domestic administration is generally a matter for the state. CMD (talk) 00:08, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The 6 extra federal divisions certainly are NOT internationally recognised, which is the more important fact. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:28, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Source that the international community cares at all about how Russia wants to carve up their claims? CMD (talk) 03:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

We can talk about semantics all you want. Russia could carve up 6 pieces into 7, 8, 9. It doesn't matter. If we list Russia's territory in square kilometres, it will be clear exactly how much is internationally recognised and how much isn't. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Correct, it doesn't matter. Leave that to articles which deal with territory in square kilometres. CMD (talk) 03:58, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

We don't distinguish between what other countries internal subdivisions (like India or China) are recognized or not, so why should Russia be singled out? The Russian government itself has 89 internal federal subjects, that's what the article should state.XavierGreen (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

We do distinguish between administrative divisions that are controlled versus claimed. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:11, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Some of Russia's claimed federal subjects are not recognized by the international community but some are at least by a few countries. Given controversial nature, why is it necessary to even specify the exact number of subjects on this page? Better say it's a federation and leave it at that. 2600:1700:20:1D80:A0A5:449D:F54D:EEC (talk) 05:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The entities within each federation are listed on this page due to the interaction between federations and sovereignty. However, they remain internal matters and are not generally the subject of international recognition.

That said, the specific number given is an interesting topic for consideration. Our treatment is currently inconsistent (noting particularly the entries for Comoros and Somalia). CMD (talk) 06:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Chechnya

Ukrainian recognition of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria - If this actually gets signed and ratified by Zelenskyy, then we will have to add the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria to this article, in the same way that we added Kherson Oblast and Zaporizhzhia Oblast. Glorious days might just be ahead of us. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

You draw the comparison, and say that we must include based on Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. Yet you opposed including Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, so your argument is a double standard.

Plus, there was never consensus to include Kherson and Zaporizhzhia on this article, so it is difficult to claim them as some kind of precedent.

I object to including Chechnya based on the sources we have available, which do not say that Ukraine proposes to recognise Chechnya as a sovereign state. Being recognised as occupied territory is manifestly different from being recognised as a sovereign state, and there are examples of cases where countries recognise the one but not the other. Kahastok talk 20:35, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Liberland (but here me out)

Liberland is possibly recognized by 4 (non-micronation) countries. The most known of these is Somaliland. (). Apparently the Liberland passport is valid in Colombia, and depending on how you think might count as being recognized (). Also Liberland is a vaild "ecominc parnter" with Malawi, () and one for a span of 5 years that started in 2020 with Haiti (). 2007Gtbot (talk) 16:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

The BBC source doesn't say that there was recognition, and Somaliland isn't a UN member state anyway. The others all fall under WP:SELFSOURCE, and fail at least two of the five requirements there. Specifically, the material makes exceptional claims about third parties.

What I see overall here is a micronation being a micronation. This is what micronations do. I see nothing that would suggest that this micronation meets the standard for inclusion here. Kahastok talk 17:44, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

These were less, sources I would use in an artical and more like sources so that I don't sound crazy. In and artical I would source the actural documents themself if possable. I just don't have the texts of the documents. 2007Gtbot (talk) 18:24, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Categories: