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	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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He is not African American

He and his wife are members of an Afrocentric African-separatist church, Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. The church's website describes the church's predominantly race-based belief system as follows:

"Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System."

Obama is more correctly referred to as an African-African-American. Contemporary use of the term African-American refers to those Americans of African descent that trace their heritage to the black experience in America before the 20th century. Being that neither his maternal, nor his paternal heritage can claim such an experience, makes calling him African-American extreme disinformation. - JC

He's African and he's American, thus he's African American. 23:30 February 21, 200 - Fentoro

My God this is a stupid title. Most African Americans have some White ancestry and 1 out of 6 White Americans have some non-White ancestry. You know what-- he is 100% American, Can we get over this idiocy and focus on what the man has to offer as a potential President?

Commitment to the black community, the black family, the black work ethic, another reference to the black community, black leadership, black value system. This isn't racism?? Has very little to do with Obama, but if I started a Caucaso-Centric church based on promoting the white community and white leaders, you think people would let it slide as easily? Gosh, this country's messed up. Regardless, who cares if he's an African-American, an African-African-American, African, or American? Does it really matter?

67.42.243.184 19:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

He is a mulatto, or mixed race, which ever you prefer.Ernham 01:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Race is self-identified here in the U.S., and he identifies himself as African-American. That he is biracial is discussed in the article, though. Italiavivi 01:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity is self-identified, not race, sorry, not even if it's "politically favorable", as in the case with this guy's phantom race. Additionally, African-american is often reserved only for those that are the descendants of the orignal slaves brought here from Africa hunreds of years ago. I see two strikes against him for the supposed label of "african american"Ernham 01:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed a lot and a compromise was finally reached. He is an American, for sure. He is also "black", as that word is used in the USA. The article does not say he is African American, it only quotes the Senate Historical Office. Steve Dufour 05:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the article does state that he is African-American: "In February 1990, he gained national recognition for becoming the first African American to be elected president of the Harvard Law Review." He is also included in the Misplaced Pages categories Category:African American politicians and Category:African American Senators. -Silence 06:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That sentence could be tweeked a bit. As for the categories, I don't think we want to say that he is NOT an African American when he says he is one. Getting back to Ernham's post: A "mulatto" or a "person of mixed race" can be a member of the group of people called "African Americans".Steve Dufour 06:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Then it would be superfluous to have the words "mulatto" and "mixed-race" if the aren't really definitive. I know one thing for sure, if/when the exploratory committee decides he should run, the article should read, "If elected, he would be the first African-American (I know I'm not going to win this on here so I guess I'll let you all have your little fun), as well as the first biracial president." Shakam 06:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The ironic thing is that if he had tried to distance himself from being labeled an African American he would have been strongly criticized for that. So he just can't win with certain people. Steve Dufour 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

His father was born in Alego, Kenya, Africa, and his mother was born in Wichita, Kansas, America. Sounds African-American to me. Ground Zero | t 21:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

GZ, exactly correct. I made the same point in one of the thousands of earlier rounds on this. I can't believe this is still being "discussed" - frankly, it makes me sick. Tvoz | talk 22:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand where people are coming from on this? Are they saying he shouldn't be elected president because he isn't black enough? (anti-Obama statement) Or are they saying that someone so talented could not really be black? (anti-black statement) Steve Dufour 06:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

When one refers to something such as "african amrican", you are refering to a cultural element that is found in north america. This unique cultural element is completely different on an ethnic level than someone that is the first generation son of an African immigrant(with a phd no less) raised in upper middle-class suburbia. To correctly refer to him in a "racial way", you would have to call him half caucasoid and half negroid. We don't usually use terms like that. Someone said that because he is "black" and lives in the US he can use the term "afircan-american". That's interesting because I have an Indian(ethnically indian!) friend at college that is at least two shades darker than Barack. Here's the kicker: he also came from african immigrants(south africa). Is he really African American too? HmmmErnham 15:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Obama is what he is. The article gives all the facts needed for a person to make up his or her mind about what label to put on him. If you like you can write an op-ed type article expressing your views and if you get it published I will cite it in the article. Just leave a note on this talk page. Steve Dufour 16:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The article should not mention race, period. Give the facts and let people decide. You have already declared him african american in the first paragraph. That's absurd POV pushing nonsense. This wiki is already an "op-ed", unfortunately. Ernham 18:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It's your POV that this article should not mention race. The facts have been given and this issue has been brought up not only here but is mentioned in numerous places. Those who advocate not mentioning race in my view have an agenda and such should not be given serious consideration. Also, someone who says "period" when making a statement of opinion is the one who is pushing a POV especially when they call noting Obama's description of himself as absurd. It is acceptable in living biographies to cite the source's own statement about themselves ranging from political descriptions to religious and racial descriptions. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Race itself is often an ambiguous and "messy" concept. No need for it here, really. We have a picture and we have the facts on who his parents were. Present those and let the reader decide. I also specifically asked for a statement BY HIM. Those you provide clearly refer to him in third person and do not fit the bill. I want a statement by him. Ernham 16:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, your position isn't in line with Misplaced Pages policy, but I'll humor you; he uses it throughout Dreams from My Father. For example, here's a sentence from the first page from the "Preface to the 2004 edition": "As I mention in the original introduction, the opportunity to write the book came while I was in law school, the result of my election as the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review." —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 17:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Part of his importance is that he is a black (as that word is defined in the USA) American. The opening paragraph only quotes the Senate Historical Office on his African American-ness. Steve Dufour 18:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

We'll just see what happens on 2/10. Shakam 05:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

So, he can call himself African American, even if he's not? Seriously, he's half white, half black. He's no more African American, than he is white. How do you think people would react if he called himself white? It's amazing how reverse racism works. Anyone can call themselves African American, while it's a crime to be white.

That doesn't make a modicum of sense, but that's irrelevant. Can we please keep political posturing OFF THIS PAGE? This talk page is meant for discussing changes to the article, not to debate his candidacy. Thanks. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 17:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is some people think that Misplaced Pages is a campaign tool and not an encyclopedia. This discussion about whether he is African American or half-black/half-white is best left outside of this article. Yet, even when this issue is dropped it will be brought up in a week or two weeks as another political hack decides to come to Misplaced Pages and promote their POV on this subject. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If he calls himself African American Misplaced Pages should rely upon his statement just like Misplaced Pages would rely upon his statement that he is a Democrat. We don't use people's POV as to what is African-American and what isn't to decide whether someone would be labeled as such. The only legitimate source as to whether he is an African American is Obama himself. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'd have no issue with the inclusion of the term "african american" if he himself has described himself as such. in the absence of such "proof", it should only be said who his parents are (there is a picture of him, obviously) and let the reader make their own "logical" conclusions. Ernham 02:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The Meet Barack section of BarackObama.com states, "He went on to earn his law degree from Harvard in 1991, where he became the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review." It goes on to say, "In 2004, he became the third African American since Reconstruction to be elected to the U.S. Senate." I think that we violate neutrality when we decide that we will not mention that Barack Obama is African American when he himself has stated that he is. We walk a fine line when we decide that those who define African-American one way are correct and therefore ignore the obvious fact that he claims to be African-American. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 05:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"The only legitimate source as to whether he is an African American is Obama himself." - This is not in line with WP policy. This has been discussed to death in the archives. Please look back through them before throwing more verbiage out her. Basically what it breaks down to is that you use the racial designation used in the source you are quoting/paraphrasing/summarizing. For example you will notice in the first paragraph he is referred to indirectly as the first African American senator. That designation was used because the source being cited used it. It is notable, verifiable, etc. There is no need to gratuitously add racial designators. But if you cite a newspaper article calling him "black" then use black. If you refer to a quote from Obama himself that uses "African American" use that. There is no need to use one "true" designation. His racial/ethnic/national history is well discussed in the article. Adding your own arbitrarily decided designators is not acceptable no matter what standard "you" (this means any one editor) believes is the "standard." Use your cites and don't add extraneous racial designators. It is that simple. --Rtrev 02:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sure that this has been discussed before and am sure that it is now being discussed because someone else brought it up but past discussions on this does not prevent current or future discussions from taking place. Also, I do not intend to spend time reading the archives when it is sufficient to discuss what has been brought up. If there are points made in the archives before other editors have arrived that you feel are important than you should mention them but don't assume that new editors or editors who have chosen to have input on this article are going to rely heavily upon past discussions. That you and others may have discussed this before does not give you immunity from having to discuss it with those of us who were not a part of those discussions. I also do not think that your interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy regarding racial desgination is correct. There are sources which state that he is African American and therefore it makes sense to state as a part of this article that he is based on those sources with citation. If there is a conflicting reliable source than that can be provided for but sources which conflict with statements that have been made by a living person are required to be removed. There are certain criteria for including information provided by the person and these are:

Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if:

• Information meets verifiability, NPOV, and no original research policies.
• It is relevant to the person's notability;
• It is not contentious;
• It is not unduly self-serving;
• There is no reasonable doubt that it was provided by the subject.

This information is verifiable, is neutral, and is not original research. It is relevent to Obama's notability (i.e., he is an African-American candidate for President), and it is not contentious. This information does not unduly benefit Obama and it is clear that the information was provided by Obama as it is available on his website. To impose a requirement that racial designators that are used by Obama himself to describe himself not be included in this article is a POV and violates Misplaced Pages policy. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 05:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say that you can't use Obama's racial designation for himself. I merely stated that wasn't the only one you can use. It clearly lays it all out in the policy you just copied and pasted there. Its a matter of usage. It is fine to say he is an African-American presidential candidate if you have a nice cite talking about it (which there are many). What is not appropriate is tossing out racial designators wherever an editor thinks it sounds nice (I am not saying that you have or want to do this... it has just happened in the past). --Rtrev 06:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If you are able to show based on policy that using racial designations that the subject of the biography uses to describe themselves as editors think appropriate than you would have a point yet there is nothing in policy which prohibits or otherwise requires that such descriptions not be used. If this is not the case than you should reference the policy in question. The Manual of Style refers to this as, "Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves" and "this can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself." I don't intend to edit this article so you need not worry about whether I will ever use the word African-American anywhere in the article. I am here simply to add to the discussions on the talk page. I don't agree that it's inappropriate to refer to Obama as African-American wherever an editor feels it appropriate to mention and I believe that only one citation (with multiple sources as necessary) at the first mention of his being African-American is sufficent and that each reference to his being African-American need not be cited. The statements included in the article about Obama being African American stand alone on the few citations. Another example is religious designators which need to be cited once and then the person can be referred throughout the article as Catholic if they are consistent with other policies such as neutrality. It may have happened in the past that people included "racial designators wherever they thought that it sounds nice" and on the face there is nothing inappropriate about this except where it violates other policies. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 19:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You can't compare what a person chooses to be, to how a person is born. Bad analogy. Shakam

PLEASE READ RE: RACE DISCUSSION

To be more specific for those who don't want to go back through the archives themselves or muck through the WP manual of style. Look at WP:STYLE#Identity as well as WP:NOR. The somewhat definitive discussion can be seen in the archives please look through them! --Rtrev 03:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

People are too lazy to read the archives, they think they are special and that their input is better than what has already been discussed. This topic has been beaten over and over again (with me a contributing factor.) He is not African-American. How about we move forward in time and not backwards??? shakam 06:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

He is not african-american in the way the term is used in the united states, which is in fact unique, just like the sun does not revolve around the earth. Any "debate" that came to a contrary conclusion is not worth my time to read through.Ernham 17:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Unique or no that is not the point. The point is that you should use your sources. IT IS NOT OUR CALL. Misplaced Pages editors do not make reality we simply report what is out there. The fact is that a lot of people refer to him as "African American" and it is included in many verifiable, notable, and neutral sources. When citing those sources use African American. When citing a source that uses "black" use black. It is not a binary system. Please read WP:STYLE#Identity as well as WP:NOR as I stated above. --Rtrev 05:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

So in other words, it's your way or the highway, hmm? Nice to see your attitude (not to mention your POV) so clearly spelled out for us; thanks. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The Earth does in fact go around the sun. Sorry if reality upsets you.Ernham 18:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the American Heritage dictionary an african american is "a Black American with African ancestry". He's african, he's american, he's an african american. Slightly off topic, why do we call blacks african americans when we don't call white people european americans? --Calibas 00:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Generally, we do, we just call them caucasian. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 01:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Caucasian doesn't mean european american. --Calibas 17:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, isn't this interesting, then? My indian friend, born in south africa, since he is "blacker" than 95% of the "black" people in the USA, is in infact "aferican american"?Ernham 01:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Is he of African descent? If so, then yes. If not, then no, he's Indian (or Indian-American, I don't know any of the context). Now please, stop your POV pushing. It's becoming beyond ridiculous. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 01:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Just jumping into this discussion, I don't see what's to argue about. He's mulatto, and that's really all there is to it. He is African American and Caucasian, therefore mulatto (or of mixed race, if you prefer). End of story. I don't really see the big deal you guys are making this into. _└┘talk  01:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The reality is, if he does in fact want to use the term African American--and we do place that in the lead-- there MUST be a controversy/ criticism establishing that many other African Americans think he is a pretender. If it's not bleated about in the article, then we don't have to include that criticism/controversy. Apparently Barack has even gone as far to defend his usage of the term by claiming "decendents of slaves and recent african immigrants have a lot in common ", a mind bogglingly ridiculous statement if I ever heard one. Ernham 17:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

In what way is that ridiculous? The examples he cites are based on skin color. A cab wasn't more likely to stop for him because he wasn't descended from slaves or because his mother was white, a security guard less likely to watch him, a real estate agent more likely to show him a property. He specifically cites the case of African immigrant Amadou Diallo. That seems pretty straight forward. My input, and granted I'm new here, is that he qualifies under all three descriptors: black, African-American, mulatto (or mixed race). However, he isn't designated as being the only mixed-race Senator in the Senate or the first mixed-race editor of the Harvard Law Review . He is listed as African American. Those are two pretty decent sources to cite in an encyclopedia article, regardless of what some editors of the article believe to be the case.--Mykll42 21:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Mykll42 - well put. To my mind, anyone who would seriously question whether Obama should be called black, African American, or a person of color - any of those interchangeable terms - is either blind, illiterate, or with an agenda. And just so you know, I believe that most of the regular editors here would totally agree with you on this and have worked diligently to use common sense and obvious fact when describing him. It is only a few who are hell-bent on squeezing controversy out of the most innocuous statements, and twisting reality to fit their own positions. None of which belongs here, as far as I'm concerned. Good to have you here - I hope you'll stick around and help us keep this article on course. Tvoz | talk 06:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, well put Mykll42. I'll just throw in my two cents here; does it make any sense at all to not call him "black" or "African American"? It doesn't matter exactly what his ethnicity is, his skin tone speaks for itself. Why is this even being debated? He is a "halfrican", which is the same as "mulatto", which is defined as "black". --Hojimachong 06:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The term african american will be removed with a more amibuous term or there WILL be a controversy section added that contains many african american leaders that feel he does not have a right to call himself such. Take your pick. See Ward Churchill's supposed ethnicity, for example. Ernham 18:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Why would you pick a term more ambitious than African American? I don't get what that means. Jiffypopmetaltop

he meant "ambiguous" perhaps? best I can figure Tvoz | talk 23:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think, I'm not sure, that ultimatums are not usually considered civil. Before adding a controversy section, please cite your "many African American leaders" who feel that Barack Obama should not be considered African American and let the community decide if this is an actual controversy or a socio-political equivalent of the Evolution-ID "controversy."Mykll42 23:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

No, Ernham, we try hard here to make decisions based on consensus, and you do not have consensus for removing the term, so I expect it will be reverted. Also, your last note sounded like an ultimatum, and that's also not how we do things here. There are a lot of editors working on this article - try posting some proposed wording here on Talk and see if it flies. Threats aren't going to get you anywhere, and they interfere with the creation and maintenance of a good article. Try a new approach. Tvoz | talk 23:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC) (cross posted with Mykll42 - both of us saying essentially the same thing)

I'm not sure what it "sounded like", nor do I really care. The facts are his racial claims of being "african american" are controversial. I do not believe that they are controversial enough to warrant mention if, and only if, the wiki does not already have a pretext as decribing him as such. Can't have your cake and eat it too.Ernham 02:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You should care what you sound like as that is the first step to being civil. A controversy in the discussion page of his[REDACTED] article does not imply the existence of a controversy in the real world. Even the Stanley Crouch piece from The Daily News doesn't imply that Obama isn't African American. So, as I said earlier, please cite your sources and we will come to a consensus. Here's one for me: Mykll42 02:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he is called AA because America still lives in the immediate, centennial-past? (rhetorical, don't bother responding)Shakam 04:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Obama's new stylized "O" logo.

As seen at his site and online store. Any idea what the copyright status on this campaign logo with regard to Misplaced Pages use would be? Have past articles made use of campaign yard signs/bumper stickers or logos? Italiavivi 18:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Under US law a creative work is copyrighted as soon as it is made. If other people start using it a work can lose its copyright. This happened with the "smiley face". I am not a lawyer however. Steve Dufour 18:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not public domain as works of the federal government are because a political campaign is not a federal government entity. It's almost certainly protected by copyright (possibly even trademark). We would have to claim fair use to use it here. And I am an attorney, though this is not legal advice, yada yada yada. · j e r s y k o talk · 18:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Put a bumper sticker on your car and photograph it. Obama will not sue you. :-) Steve Dufour 18:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It is, indeed, copyrighted, so a fair use claim would have to be made. However, if you look closely at Obama's new website, you'll see a Creative Commons licensing symbol along the bottom. It does not link to any legal pages yet, but it's entirely possible that Obama is licensing all content on the website under a CC license, which, depending on its iteration, may be compatible with Misplaced Pages. Someone would need to contact their legal team for clarification. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It is highly unusual for them to display the "CC" logo without clarifying the license. Reading their terms page one finds copying restricted to "personal use" only, and "bulk uses" are verboten. This is more restrictive than the strictest CC license, which only bans commercial use. It's pretty clear they don't understand what the Creative Commons is, and just thought it would look cool on the webpage. Too bad.--Pharos 19:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not very clear at all. The site launched at 12 AM this morning, and discrepancies in text (that very likely was copied from prior websites) isn't at all out of the question. I'm going to shoot them an e-mail to ask to clarify their licensing. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 19:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. And please point them to this page. And remind them that if they want their photos on Misplaced Pages, they'll have to be cc-by or cc-by-sa. Thanks.--Pharos 19:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll update when I have a response. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 19:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the senate campaign sign here on Obama's article, Ken Salazar's old Senate election logo is used at his article, with a Fair Use claim on the image itself. Hillary Clinton has the same, with her "Hillary" logo. I know George W. Bush used a stylized "W" logo for some campaign material, but can't find that one in use on Misplaced Pages anywhere. Italiavivi 19:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

We're still awaiting the board's official declaration, but based on Kat's letter summarizing policy, a fair use claim for a campaign logo would not be permissible unless there is scholastic value in including the logo (in other words, using it merely for decoration is not permitted). —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 19:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with who/what you're referring to. Kat's letter? Italiavivi 19:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

—bbatsell ¿? ✍ 19:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Italiavivi 20:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Unarchiving this section since the one below it covers the same area.--Bobblehead 00:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use images

Fair use images are required to contribute substantially to the article. Can anyone justify the substantial contribution of Image:Obama 08.JPG and Image:Barack Obama campaign logo.JPG. Perhaps those of you with connections to the campaign could have them release the images under an acceptable licence if they want them included. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

There is already a discussion on this topic here on the Talk page. This additional section is unnecessary. I would also refer you back to the discussion at the Wesley Clark FAC, which you apparently arrived here from. You do not believe campaign logos contribute significantly to the article, others do, and Sen. Obama's site also has a CCommons tag on it. Italiavivi 15:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

In this revert, you replace free-use content with fair-use content. Why would you do this? Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I restored deleted content. Again, there is already a Talk page discussion here concerning Obama's campaign signs. Do you intend to actually participate in Talk discussion, or will you dodge and wikilawyer all day? Did you bother reading the Talk page before editing the main article, or making this new Talk section, even? You do not believe that campaign logos contribute significantly to an article, others do. You do not appear to have consensus in your corner. Italiavivi 15:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

You restored the fair-use image that I replaced with an equally good (better, some might say) free-use image. I've asked for a fair use review. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

A review which you have now disrupted. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Disrupted? Uh... —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's fair use policy is quite clear. In the event that free use images exist, they are always preferred over fair use images. We have not been able to confirm what parts of Obama's website are covered under CC, and, based on their Flickr photostream, it would not be compatible with Misplaced Pages anyway (they are presently released using the NC clause). I'm very sad my pictures from the Austin rally didn't come out very well so I can't contribute :( —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

So If the problem is getting the images as free use... is there anyone in here who works on the campaign? Or does someone want to contact the campaign? All the new candidates seems to be falling over themselves to be internet friendly I wouldn't be surprised if they would release the campaign images with a license that works here. After all it can't hurt. (I am willing to write the campaign if no one else has closer ties). --Rtrev 05:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I just wrote them today (unrelated to this recent discussion) re: the unexplained CC logo, as bbatsell's earlier correspondence apparently hasn't been answered. I checked it on the comment form as a "technical problem" in the hope they would be more likely to read those carefully.--Pharos 08:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

We should strive to obtain some free example of the campaign material and the non-free images don’t seem particularly original or important. However, I don’t understand why the Time cover was removed; to appear on the cover of Time is definitely significant. Additionally, the image was doing a good job of representing the press coverage as a whole (again due to the magazine’s cover’s importance) and I don’t see from where a free replacement could come that would be similarly representative. —xyzzy_n 11:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

See also: Misplaced Pages talk:Fair use#Barack Obama on cover of TIME magazine --HailFire 14:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Junior?

Because his father is Barack H. Obama, Sr, is his official birth certificate name "Barack Hussein Obama, Junior"? Steveprutz 18:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Has the "Jr" been confirmed? I see it's been added ti the article.Mykll42 18:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Smoking

Would the fascists who control this article allow some mention of his smoking habit? This been discussed quite a bit in the media and could become a campaign issue. Of course, if we want the article to remain an Obama advertisement, we might want to sweep his nicotine addiction under the rug. Ogeez 19:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not very civil. A better way to describe it would be this: "Obama's cigarette smoking is getting increased press coverage lately and I think it merits mention in this article. I believe there was a poll out recently (the standard "Would you vote for a qualified _____ for president?" poll) which showed that a large percentage of people would not. I think this merits mention in the article." I would agree that it should go on his campaign page, but not here. The fact that Senator Obama smokes is not notable. The fact that it may affect his campaign, and that his campaign has responded with a "Quit Smoking With Barack" program, is. But not here. Lots of people smoke. Mykll42 20:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

So basically the answer is, "No, but we can stick it in an article that no one will ever read." Out of curiosity, does the Obama campaign have a full time staff of volunteers devoted to running this article? There's nothing to prevent that from happening. Given the way any mildly negative information gets suppressed, it wouldn't surprise me. The ironic thing is I think Obama would be better served by un unbiased account of his potential strengths and flaws. But I guess you would rather make this into a second Obama campaign web site. Maybe we should put up a link where people can make donations. Ogeez 22:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't think his being a smoker is negative information and I think his attempt to quit will strike a positive chord with the electorate. My problems with it are not the NPOV issues but the notability issue. About 25% of Americans smoke. I do agree that the election page could be more prominent. Oh, and I don't work for the Obama campaign. Please be civil. Mykll42 22:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be civil Ogeez and assume good faith of other editors. Referring to editors as "fascists" or accusing editors of working for Obama is not a good way to go about improving this article or any articles on Misplaced Pages. This article is NPOV and well referenced. It was even a featured article at one point. The Obama smoking issue is not relevant to his notability, per BLP. I understand he has recently quit (or is still currently trying to quit), and this fact may be relevant given that it's generated the note that it has (do a google search for Obama quit smoking if you must), but since he's decided to quit and there's not been any proof of him smoking since, calling him a smoker in this article would qualify as original research, which is not allowed. I know it may appear this article is biased in favor of him, but it has been strictly upheld and maintained per[REDACTED] policies. Obama just happens to not have generated a lot of negative note, (real) criticism, or (real) controversy. The only thing I can think of that happened recently is the Fox News and Insight Magazine fabrication about him being "muslim", which even then can't be included in his article because 1. The story is false 2. It could only go in the articles for Fox News Controversies and Insight Magazine.

It might help not to look at articles like "We need to have a balanced amount of positive and negative information in this article". Rather, look at it like "We need to use NPOV language/wording, and include relevant, notable information about this person/thing/place/idea in order to represent accurately the person/thing/place/idea we are writing an article about." --Ubiq 23:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Just look back at the rest of this talk page. Every time something negative comes up, it is deemed "not notable." Yet the article includes shameless puffery such as: "The Washington Post noted his ability to work effectively with both Democrats and Republicans, and to build bipartisan coalitions." Is there any other politician who gets this type of treatment? I make no apologies for referring to the editors of this article as fascists, nor for accusing them of working for Obama. Just because they use polite language and come up with excuses like "undue weight" for rejecting negative information does not justify the ridiculous pro-Obama bias of this article. It's not like you're fooling anyone. People will come here looking for answers to questions like "Does he smoke?" or "Is he Muslim?" and instead see this puff-piece that refuses even to acknowledge these issues. Ogeez 00:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe because he isn't Muslim. It is clearly indicated in its own section that he joined the United Church of Christ in his 20s. The only issue I have is that more should be explained about how his mom disliked organized religion and his step-father was somewhat secular also. That would finally clear up the whole Muslim thing. But this is completely offtopic. As for on topic stuff, WP:SMOKERS clearly says quitting or smoking does not matter unless it plays an integral part of his life. Sure there are "multiple available citations" but that "does not mean it is notable for inclusion in a Misplaced Pages article." Gdo01 00:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop right there. WP:SMOKERS is an essay I assembled, one looking for consensus concerning article subjects who are smokers. It is not in any way official policy. I myself am actually of the opinion that Obama's public effort to quit smoking is notable enough for inclusion in the article. Italiavivi 02:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

My mistake but I still don't think quitting smoking is important until he makes it important. He only seriously addressed it once and has not seemed to address it again. Gdo01 00:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. You win. According to official Misplaced Pages policy, we are not allowed to mention the smoking habits of a guy who wants to be president of the United States and a role model for children. You guys certainly know Misplaced Pages policy better than I do. I'll give you that much. Maybe we could start a new policy on WP:How_his_parents_met that would say statements like this are not notable: "His parents met while both were attending the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student." Or is that more important that his smoking? Ogeez 00:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to ask you again to not call me a fascist. The object here is to create an encyclopedia article. Between 15-25% of Americans smoke. Barack Obama the Senator smoking is not notable. As an aspect of his political campaign, it is. I note you haven't added anything to the (unprotected, btw) campaign page, or its discussion page for that matter. If we were truly trying to remove negative information, don't you think his past cocaine use would be the first to go? Mykll42 00:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

His smoking might not be notable, but his very public effort to quit smoking is. The Obamas have been very open about it, with countless reliable sources available. Italiavivi 02:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Winston Churchill smoked and drank regularly. Hitler did neither. The point being, smoking has nothing to do with leadership capacity and quality. 205.202.240.101 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above point.

Ogeez, the article is not "ridiculously pro-Obama biased". You're not doing anything to contribute to this article or wikipedia. You came to the wrong place if you were looking to smear a presidential candidate you don't like. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to include relevant, representative information about something. That's what this article does, and it's a fine example of a good article. The problem with including a lot of the "negative" information you want to be included is, none of it is notable. Read the policy. If he were to say something blatantly racist and there was a public reaction/outcry, such that it generated plenty of note, it would be included in this article, regardless of the political affiliations of the editors. But somehow I don't see him doing something like that, so people who see him as a threat will continue coming here to find out why his article is so "biased". --Ubiq 02:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I wish every political figure had as good an article as this. Steve Dufour 19:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be rad to include a fully contextualized discussion of Obama's smoking including the fact that individuals with lower incomes (working-class) are more likely to smoke than those with higher incomes. Also, why doesn't GWB's page list his cocaine use? Probably it's controlled by "fascists" as well. -- Autumninjersey 18:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Smokin' Obama ! Consider the moment when we first learned that Obama smoked. Did it skewer, however briefly, previous thoughts we held of him, whether yea or nay? Probably. Ok, certainly. Now, after becoming aware of such, did our opinions of him become sufficiently altered that our perception of the man took a new form? Probably, not. If we liked him, we continued to like him. If we didn't, then we continued to not. Net effect of all of this is that the smoking issue is, well, just that, an issue for each of us personally. But, is it an issue of encyclopedic proportion. History says no. Current events say yes. If we decide yes, given the current free-flowing content of Misplaced Pages, then logic guides to mention, for all public figures, their smoking habits . Because if the smoking habit of one is sufficient for encyclopedic entry, then the non-smoking habit of another becomes equally necessary. Since no one is prepared to do that, I vote we leave it out . --Free4It 23:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that including it would be an example of recentism. I don't agree that if it's included in one article, it should be included for all articles — notability of a specific event or characteristic should be determined on an article-by-article basis. I'm certainly sympathetic to the argument that it should be included since the media made a (relatively) big deal out of it a few weeks ago — this has entirely died down, though. If it comes up again in a big way in the campaign, then it should probably be included, at the very least in his 2008 campaign article as a campaign-related issue. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

NYT and Harvard Law Review

I've restored this line: In February 1990, the New York Times reported his election as the Harvard Law Review's "first black president in its 104-year history." As per earlier talk, it is safest to name the source and use an exact quotation where terms "black" or "African American" are given. Also, HLR is a journal, not a newspaper as the recent edit stated. Lastly, I think no "The" flows better here before New York Times. Though I realize it is an open debate, I think we should put the readers first, and keep the prose as easy to follow as possible given that this sentence is already loaded. Hope others agree. --HailFire 10:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You could be accurate and readable: The New York Times reported his election in February 1990 as the Harvard ... - that's assuming the election took place in that month, and not just some belated news coverage. - !!!!

Done. --HailFire 14:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Mother's ancestors owned slaves

There are now reports that his mother's ancestors owned slaves. This could be embarrassing to Obama, so I propose that we immediately delete any edits that mention this. Ogeez 20:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Ogeez is right! We should go through every single biographical Misplaced Pages article, then investigate the genealogy of every single subject. If any of their great-great-grandparents owned slaves, we ought add a three-paragraph section informing our readers of such! Italiavivi 22:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

She's descended from Jefferson Davis; of course her ancestors owned slaves. Gdo01 20:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's that relevant. However, if something is embarrassing to Obama, that alone is no reason for deletion. - PoliticalJunkie 20:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I just finished reading the conversation in the "Smoking" section. - PoliticalJunkie 20:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Ogeez needs to be WP:CIVIL and stop trolling this talk page. --Haemo 10:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. WP:NPOV comes above WP:CIVIL in the hierarcy of[REDACTED] principals. Why is no one criticizing the tyrants who run this article for violating NPOV? Ogeez 23:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so we're fascist tyrant Obama volunteers. We get the message. Now could you actually talk about the issues rather than engaging in attacks upon everyone else? I've seen you bring up two so far; smoking and whether or not he is Muslim. The second is addressed in the article rather clearly, and the first has been determined by a consensus of editors to not be notable enough to be in a featured article. You have previously stated that you believe that anyone coming to an encyclopedia to read about Mr. Obama will want to know whether he smokes; I disagree, and feel that people looking for that sort of information would be better served by The Inquirer. Oops, does that make me Hitler? We're building an encyclopedia here, not a tabloid chronicling every little fact about Obama (either positive or negative). The most notable facts and events in his life are included, and if you want to read more, you can follow our links and sources; as tertiary sources, that's what encyclopedias are supposed to do. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, I'm sure Ogeez believes that the accusations made against Prescott Bush being a Nazi sympathizer belong in the article about George H. W. Bush.Shsilver 00:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Please be WP:CIVIL. Ogeez 00:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, how is it uncivil to suggest that you are an even-handed person who believes that things should be consistent?Shsilver 00:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I just don't think it's fair that Hillary_Rodham_Clinton has a link to a Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_controversies page with twenty-five separate "scandals," while this Obama page has almost no negative information. Our nation finally has a chance to elect its first female president, and[REDACTED] is undermining that opportunity with its biased reporting. Ogeez 00:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages is not attempting to "report" anything; it's an encyclopedia. (Add.: See WP:RECENT.) HRC has been in the public's eye for much longer, and has accumulated many more controversies in that amount of time than has Mr. Obama. Just because HRC has had a lot of controversies does not mean that we should manufacture "controversies" that aren't controversies at all for a political opponent of hers. I also think you're overestimating Misplaced Pages's role in the 2008 primary :) —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 00:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, and again, this argument comes up - "X has a section like this, why not Y" - as if the Encyclopedia is somehow bound to include every factoid and attempted smear campaign equally. This is simply not the case - not all controversies are created equal, and the simple fact is that Mr Obama has not been a party to any which are particularly notable outside of his campaign; which there is a separate page for. Comparing something like "Whitewater" to what is essentially a semantic argument over whether Mr Obama is "black" is ridiculous in the extreme. The difference should be self-evident. Also, User:Ogeez has some gall telling other people to be civil when he has repeatedly engaged in baseless name-calling towards other users on this very talk page. Physician, heal thyself. --Haemo 00:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that many if not most of the so-called controversies that have been added to Hillary Rodham Clinton's controversy page are ridiculous, trumped-up nonsense, including things about her hair and who she was named after, put there to smear her. I hope this article isn't headed in that same direction.

Furthermore, here is what the New York Times reported today about Sen. Obama's response to this news item - "He also acknowledged for the first time a recent revelation by a genealogist that his mother’s ancestors in Kentucky owned slaves, something reported by The Baltimore Sun last week.

'It turns out that her great-great-great-great-grandfather actually owned slaves,' Mr. Obama said before another audience, over breakfast, at George C. Wallace Community College. 'That’s no surprise. That’s part of our tortured, tangled history.'" NYT March 5, 2007 Tvoz | talk 05:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

We don't have a choice of who our ancestors, or even our parents, are; so, why would this be important? He didn't choose to have slave-owning ancestors. shakam

Black support update

Here is a story which says that a majority of blacks now support Obama: I'm not sure how to put in into the article however. Steve Dufour 17:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008#Opinion polling would be a good place to put it. - PoliticalJunkie 17:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. The information about the poll has already been added there. I understand that we can not have daily poll updates in this article. :-) Steve Dufour 20:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

pictures

Editors of this article may be interested in this Flickr photo set, which has a lot of decent pictures of Obama and is compatibly licensed.--ragesoss 06:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

His US Congress headshot is in the public domain and is probably the best photo for the main picture in this article. The sub sections are fairly well pictured, though we could maybe use a picture added to the "2004 DNC" section, the "State legislature", or the "Political advocacy". Other than those sections, I like the pictures that already exist. --Mattarata 06:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Semi protection?

When was the semiprotection status removed? I signed on after a few hours and saw a tennis match of racial epithets and gorilla pictures on a Senator's page. Mykll42 03:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I Agree, semi protection should be re-instated for anonymous/new users...I counted like 12 revisions of vandalism by anon users over a 10 hour stretch today. Bjewiki 03:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to head over to WP:RFP and make a request for semi-protection. --Bobblehead 03:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree completely with sprot - this is a chronic problem on this article, and it's time that this page get long-term semi-protection, like many others have. This is an embarrassment and only goes to further make Misplaced Pages look amateuristic and unreliable. I would hope that the regular editors here who have objected in the past will get the message that this is not going to stop in the foreseeable future, despite everyone's hope that it will, and that far greater damage is done by allowing this vicious vandalism than by restricting edits to people who take the 2 minutes it takes to register (as anonymously as they like). I have said this repeatedly - see the archives - and others have agreed. To those who are against sprot: we tried it your way, over and over and over, each time with the hope that this time would be different, but it isn't. Enough is enough. Tvoz | talk 03:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I put in a request. Mykll42 03:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, nothing is also enough. This latest restoration of sprot was blatantly preemptive. IP blocking was not even tried. I have changed to the sprot template that warns unregistered users that their contributions are not welcome on this page. We could do better than this. --HailFire 01:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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