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Structure of article
There's been a lot of discussion about the lead paragraph, but generally the article could be better, and I would be interested to read opinions about the structure. For me, the main interest is as part of the history of thought, and in fact that does take up a lot of the article. However, it dips in and out from one tradition to another, and spends a lot more time on "western" astrology than on Chinese, Indian or other traditions. Coming closer to the present day, it does not clearly lay out the difference between full horoscopes that take account of the hour and date of birth, as opposed to the "your stars" sections in magazines. I was wondering whether there should be main sections on Babylonian, Hellenistic/Roman/Islamic world, Indian, Chinese/Vietnamese/Japanese, and Modern Western, each structured chronologically, and that the material on "Principles and practice", and "Cultural impact" be brought into them. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, the page needs a substantial rewrite. Strange how it is WP:GA, to be quite honest. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!(talk or whatever) 07:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
- Does anyone else have any ideas or suggestions? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- I have been looking for sources on how to handle this sort of thing and am a little confused. The use of the word "astrology" seems to be ambiguous at best. The extent to which "astrology" is applied to other cultural beliefs seems to be to the extent that predictable and repeated observations of the night sky was used in divination (so, for example, portents of comets and supernovae are often not included in the accounts of what constitutes different cultural "astrologies"). Most problematically, I cannot find very good sources that look at "astrology" as a singular subject and treat the cross-cultural comparisons in a consistent manner. This academic book (though I should have added a WP:REDFLAG as Nicholas Campion isn't exactly an independent source we would want to rely on), for example, seems to treat basically any mention of the sky in any religion as "astrology" which doesn't quite conform to the best and most rigorous definitions I've seen. jps (talk) 12:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- It seems to me that there is a split between the stars as the year's calendar and the stars for divination in the European Middle Ages. The church has no problem with the former and strongly disapproves of the latter. Chaucer translated and edited a Treatise on the Astrolabe, a scientific instrument, and also has a character who comically gets into trouble after being obsessed with his astrolabe. Chaucer is teasing his readers with the emerging science/superstition divide, in my reading, but entirely my own reading. There's an academic literature on Chaucer's astrological references, but it may not be the best place to start with finding good sources on medieval belief. I can see why Campion would deal with all mentions of the sky together, because it isn't always easy to see when a historical text is "just" referring to a period in time and when there are further implications and predictions. I found this website, which is introductory but has links to articles, some of which may be citeable. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:50, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I have been looking for sources on how to handle this sort of thing and am a little confused. The use of the word "astrology" seems to be ambiguous at best. The extent to which "astrology" is applied to other cultural beliefs seems to be to the extent that predictable and repeated observations of the night sky was used in divination (so, for example, portents of comets and supernovae are often not included in the accounts of what constitutes different cultural "astrologies"). Most problematically, I cannot find very good sources that look at "astrology" as a singular subject and treat the cross-cultural comparisons in a consistent manner. This academic book (though I should have added a WP:REDFLAG as Nicholas Campion isn't exactly an independent source we would want to rely on), for example, seems to treat basically any mention of the sky in any religion as "astrology" which doesn't quite conform to the best and most rigorous definitions I've seen. jps (talk) 12:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Does anyone else have any ideas or suggestions? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- The history sections currently read more like a collection of trivia than good, organized summaries. I imagine that bits and pieces were added to them because this article is more visible than the offshoots like Babylonian astrology where details would more properly belong. The opening paragraphs of "History" try to be a summary but then weave into the details; the chronology wobbles back and forth. "Ancient objections" is choppy and in an odd place (while sadly getting no representation in the lede). XOR'easter (talk) 15:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think that's spot-on and I will try to re-order a bit, boldly, just to see how it goes. I posted on the talk page of Wikiproject Catholicism in case we can find an Aquinas person to help. There are lots of other relevant Wikiprojects. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:08, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- We'd probably benefit from a systematic re-evaluation and reorganization that properly sorts out what should go in Astrology, what should go in Astrology and science, whether we need an Astrology and astronomy in addition to Astrology and science, etc. Since we as a community can't agree on three sentences, though, I doubt that will ever work. XOR'easter (talk) 00:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Astrology and astronomy leaps all over the place in time and space, so fails to explain anything at all about what I might dare to call the "disciplinogenesis" of scientific astronomy. "All change at the Enlightenment! Ah yes, but there were sceptics from the beginning." It may have some usable sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe it should be smerged into Astrology and science? XOR'easter (talk) 17:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- There also seems to be overlap between Astrology and science and History of astrology, when the latter gets around to "Medieval and Renaissance Europe". XOR'easter (talk) 22:21, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Astrology and astronomy leaps all over the place in time and space, so fails to explain anything at all about what I might dare to call the "disciplinogenesis" of scientific astronomy. "All change at the Enlightenment! Ah yes, but there were sceptics from the beginning." It may have some usable sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- We'd probably benefit from a systematic re-evaluation and reorganization that properly sorts out what should go in Astrology, what should go in Astrology and science, whether we need an Astrology and astronomy in addition to Astrology and science, etc. Since we as a community can't agree on three sentences, though, I doubt that will ever work. XOR'easter (talk) 00:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think that's spot-on and I will try to re-order a bit, boldly, just to see how it goes. I posted on the talk page of Wikiproject Catholicism in case we can find an Aquinas person to help. There are lots of other relevant Wikiprojects. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:08, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
The 1985 study (published in Nature) used in this article was mischaracterized and fails to note the paper’s conclusion along with the limitations of the study. cloudpictures (talk) 05:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Arab World or Islamic World?
The lede states:
Western astrology, one of the oldest astrological systems still in use, can trace its roots to 19th–17th century BCE Mesopotamia, from where it spread to Ancient Greece, Rome, the Arab world and eventually Central and Western Europe.
Yet the body of the article speaks of the Islamic world rather than the more narrowly defined Arab world? - LouisAragon (talk) 16:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Apaugasma: thoughts? - LouisAragon (talk) 16:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a known conundrum. Not all of the relevant texts were written in Arabic or by ethnic Arabs, but not all of the texts were written by Muslims either, so "Arabic", "Arab", and "Islamic" are all to an extent incorrect. Sometimes "Arabic-Islamic" or "Arabo-Islamic" (see Google Scholar ) are used to cover as much terrain as possible, though when speaking of Arabic textual traditions "Arabic" is used more often (as in "Arabic astrology", compare again Google Scholar ).An alternative that has gained much currency the last ten years and that I like a lot is "Islamicate" (see the very high-quality sources that use it ), meaning everything produced in the time and place when Islam was politically and culturally dominant. It solves the problem by including all linguistic traditions and all religions, while still singling out what they had in common (i.e., being part of the Dar al-islam). I think "Islamicate world" is common enough () to use it here. I would also recommend piping the link to Science in the medieval Islamic world, a GA. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Apaugasma: Thank you for the sound arguments and WP:RS evidence. I will adjust the link accordingly (Islamicate world). - LouisAragon (talk) 15:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a known conundrum. Not all of the relevant texts were written in Arabic or by ethnic Arabs, but not all of the texts were written by Muslims either, so "Arabic", "Arab", and "Islamic" are all to an extent incorrect. Sometimes "Arabic-Islamic" or "Arabo-Islamic" (see Google Scholar ) are used to cover as much terrain as possible, though when speaking of Arabic textual traditions "Arabic" is used more often (as in "Arabic astrology", compare again Google Scholar ).An alternative that has gained much currency the last ten years and that I like a lot is "Islamicate" (see the very high-quality sources that use it ), meaning everything produced in the time and place when Islam was politically and culturally dominant. It solves the problem by including all linguistic traditions and all religions, while still singling out what they had in common (i.e., being part of the Dar al-islam). I think "Islamicate world" is common enough () to use it here. I would also recommend piping the link to Science in the medieval Islamic world, a GA. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
RfC about short description
There is no consensus as to whether the short description should include the word "pseudoscience" (including variations like pseudoscientific) due to this RFC not being well-formed. In large part, this is due to the ineffective formatting of the RFC, which presented editors with no options on which to vote and occurred shortly after a related RFC (which discussed how to mention pseudoscience within this article's lead). Thus, not only were editors disadvantaged when trying to reach consensus on the short description, but also the quick succession between related RFCs was likely to discourage editors from participating.Similarly, and as mentioned by some editors in the discussion, only a minority of participants gave opinions strictly responding to the question at hand (i.e. the short description and nothing but the short description). Again, this is in large part due to the manner in which the RFC was organized. Thus, a new RFC with a clear format and options presented at the beginning is necessary to determine an appropriate consensus on the subject.I also make note of the repetitive manner in which the RFC filer defended their viewpoint. This is unlikely to help the consensus-building process in the future and they are strongly urged to better format their comments so as to facilitate discussion.— Ixtal ⁂ Non nobis solum. 22:52, 18 September 2022 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the short description include the word "pseudoscience"? Yes or No? DolyaIskrina (talk) 22:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)DolyaIskrina (talk) 19:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest you do a bit of WP:RFCBEFORE and if you still want an RFC make it a bit more specific. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Also, policies and guidelines? Odd choice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:26, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Many pixels have been spilled on this already. You closed the previous RfC so you know. Yes, this is a matter of policy, specifically WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE and WP:SHORDESC (though the second isn't technically policy). "include the word pseudoscience" is pretty specific. Once the RFC is decided we can hash out the specific text. The short description prior to Apaugasma's change enjoyed an enduring consensus. There is clearly a mood afoot that your closing of the previous RFC has changed that consensus. As for me, I'd be fine with any mention of the word at all. DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Has the word 'pseudoscience' been demonstrated (or divined?) to have some sort of magical property that absolutely requires its inclusion in any context that might just possibly seem vaguely applicable? Because otherwise, I can't think of any particular reason to have a context-free discussion about a single word. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- So should I put you down as a no? And your reason for that judging from you comment when you reverted me would be... the absence of the word does not imply that it doesn't apply? DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Put me down as 'invalid RfC'. I reverted you because (a) the justification for your edit made no sense, and (b) the description as it stood seemed perfectly adequate. I think it's reasonably safe to assume that readers know what the word 'divination' means, and insulting readers intelligence isn't a requirement of Misplaced Pages policy. Or do you actually think that the word 'pseudoscience' has some magical power, making its presence obligatory? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was putting back the short description that had been there for some time. So you prefer the new short description over the old short description because you think the word "divine" implies "pseudoscience"? DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was aware what you were doing. I prefer the 'divination' description because it tells readers what the article is about, without hitting them over the head with a metaphorical shovel in order to beat sense into any of them that might possibly not conform to WikiThink. Which is what inserting the word 'pseudoscience' into every possible context amounts to. Education by incantation isn't generally very effective. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- ↑↑↑ This hits the nail upon the head. It's been the driving force of whole my effort here on this talk. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. To be clear about this, I have no objection to using the word 'pseudoscience', where appropriate. I've just reverted the removal of the word from the Numerology article because in my opinion, in spite of the obvious flaws in that article (which mirror to some extent those seen in this one) the article was better with it than without, given a simple binary choice between how it had been before and after the removal. We aren't however confined to binary choices, and should instead be asking ourselves what is the best way to educate and inform our readers - without the application of a shovel. If I had the inclination, and the access to the necessary sources, I'd maybe try to fix it, but having to fight off contributors who insist on the presence of magic words in articles provides little of an incentive to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm with you on all points. It's only the 'shoveling' that I find objectionable and deeply unencylopedic. But somehow there's a deep mistrust on WP towards anyone who would as much as suggest that the use of the term pseudoscience may be inappropriate, no matter where it is used and no matter what the context. My sig probably also doesn't help. What I can tell you though is that I'm sick and tired of the aspersions. For Pete's sake, I'm an effing skeptic and atheist. Okay, on the internet I could just as well be a dog, but look at my contribs then. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:41, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. To be clear about this, I have no objection to using the word 'pseudoscience', where appropriate. I've just reverted the removal of the word from the Numerology article because in my opinion, in spite of the obvious flaws in that article (which mirror to some extent those seen in this one) the article was better with it than without, given a simple binary choice between how it had been before and after the removal. We aren't however confined to binary choices, and should instead be asking ourselves what is the best way to educate and inform our readers - without the application of a shovel. If I had the inclination, and the access to the necessary sources, I'd maybe try to fix it, but having to fight off contributors who insist on the presence of magic words in articles provides little of an incentive to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- ↑↑↑ This hits the nail upon the head. It's been the driving force of whole my effort here on this talk. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was aware what you were doing. I prefer the 'divination' description because it tells readers what the article is about, without hitting them over the head with a metaphorical shovel in order to beat sense into any of them that might possibly not conform to WikiThink. Which is what inserting the word 'pseudoscience' into every possible context amounts to. Education by incantation isn't generally very effective. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was putting back the short description that had been there for some time. So you prefer the new short description over the old short description because you think the word "divine" implies "pseudoscience"? DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Put me down as 'invalid RfC'. I reverted you because (a) the justification for your edit made no sense, and (b) the description as it stood seemed perfectly adequate. I think it's reasonably safe to assume that readers know what the word 'divination' means, and insulting readers intelligence isn't a requirement of Misplaced Pages policy. Or do you actually think that the word 'pseudoscience' has some magical power, making its presence obligatory? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- So should I put you down as a no? And your reason for that judging from you comment when you reverted me would be... the absence of the word does not imply that it doesn't apply? DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC. It's an obvious rehash of the RfC that was closed yesterday, which was all about how much context should be provided when introducing astrology as pseudoscience. Yes, consensus has long been 'no context needed/desired', but consensus has now changed, towards either 'with historical context' ('was it always pseudoscience?' 'when did it become pseudoscience?'), or as a second option, 'with definitional context' (first 'what is astrology', then 'what is it that renders it pseudoscience?'). It should be obvious how that new consensus applies to the short description, which per WP:SD40 provides absolutely no place for context. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- It was an iffy close of the RFC, and the conclusion you have drown from it that "consensus has now changed" is overplaying your hand. Shall I put you down as a "no"? AndyTheGrump has made their reasoning clear. They see the word "pseudoscience" as "Wikithink" that is "education by incantation" and an "application of a shovel". I disagree, but get Andy's reasoning. In your edit summary for changing the short description, you say that your new version of the short description is better because it is shorter. Now here in this RFC you make it clear that, in fact, you think the consensus on the word "pseudoscience" has changed. So it's not really about "shorter" it is about "pseudoscience". For a minute there, when I read your new version of the lead after ScottishFinnishRadish closed the previous RFC, I thought "meh, that seems fine," and then you went and changed the short description and confirmed for me that we are actual all now on a slippery slope that is ultimately an attack on WP:Pseudoscience. I can't tell if that's your intention, but that's the effect. The fact that you are advocating to change the language of WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE here also makes me suspect that you do indeed have a POINT. Either way, it's a simple question that needs clarification. Does the word "pseudoscience" belong in the short description? How we answer that question will determine whether or not we are soon talking about if pseudoscience belongs in the lead, or in the article at all. DolyaIskrina (talk) 00:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- We don't base article content on precognitions of 'slippery slopes'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:37, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- And further to that, I'd be grateful if you leave readers to see for themselves what I actually wrote, rather than misrepresenting it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:21, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- I take your point about characterizing your comments. I get how annoying that is. What did I misrepresent? DolyaIskrina (talk) 01:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- My views on the appropriate use of the word 'pseudoscience'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:30, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- I take your point about characterizing your comments. I get how annoying that is. What did I misrepresent? DolyaIskrina (talk) 01:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- What Andy said: we don't base article content on precognitions of 'slippery slopes'. A simple lack of AGF is not a good basis to start an RfC on. FWIW, I supported changing the SD along with the lead sentence in my very first contribution to this discussion back on 3 June, and again on on 5 June. They're clearly tied, which is why I also mentioned the RfC in my edsum. You would do better to believe me when I say that my gripe was with the uncontextualized 'shoveling' of the word pseudoscience, and that I have no intention at all to argue that it shouldn't be in the lead, let alone in the article. The new consensus established in the RfC is for using the word with context and nuance, not for not using it. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:41, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:pseudoscience has not been changed by any RFC. It states "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." @ScottishFinnishRadish: Crate and Barrel rules, "ya broke it, ya own it." Apaugasma thinks your close was
Is that what your close found? Do you now see why this current RFC is needed? And why it is necessary to make it very limited and precise? DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)"...all about how much context should be provided when introducing astrology as pseudoscience. Yes, consensus has long been 'no context needed/desired', but consensus has now changed, towards either 'with historical context' ('was it always pseudoscience?' 'when did it become pseudoscience?'), or as a second option, 'with definitional context' (first 'what is astrology', then 'what is it that renders it pseudoscience?').
- My close only pertained to the lead, but I don't think it's unfair to read into that discussion that other editors don't have a problem with using pseudoscience with nuance when the topic has existed long before the scientific method. Maybe some of this should have been discussed before you opened an RFC? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:pseudoscience has not been changed by any RFC. It states "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." @ScottishFinnishRadish: Crate and Barrel rules, "ya broke it, ya own it." Apaugasma thinks your close was
Given that this supposed 'RfC' is clearly an improper attempt to relitigate the earlier RfC, I suggest it be closed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- No AndyTheGrump's comments are insightful: there is no need to hit readers over the head with a shovel. I know that Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Generally considered pseudoscience says, "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." In articles about religion, morality, political ideology, art, cooking and many other topics, we don't lecture readers about how they are not based on scientific principles. It's only when adherents claim that their theory is scientific that it merits the label of pseudoscience. For example, creation science advocates claim that they are rebutting scientific consensus when in fact they do not follow the scientific method. TFD (talk) 03:03, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, per the edifying comments above and also per WP:SHORTDESC, which notes that short descriptions should "use universally accepted facts that will not be subject to rapid change, avoiding anything that could be understood as controversial or judgemental." It is, I think, beyond reasonable dispute that astrology is sometimes pseudoscience, and also that it has not always been pseudoscience in all times and places; given those considerations, "pseudoscience" would be a poor use of the available character count. (No opinion as to the formal validity or invalidity of the RfC, but since it's still here, I guess I'll comment on it.) -- Visviva (talk) 19:07, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- SHORTDESC is not policy. It is "norms, customs, technicalities, or practices" WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE is policy. DolyaIskrina (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, per the preponderance of evidence that it obviously is. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:26, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes as it is about as pure an example of it as you can get. Slatersteven (talk) 12:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- I could again cite and quote all the sources (Barton 1994, Beck 2007, Hanegraaff 2012, Rochberg 2018, etc.) explicitly stating that reducing astrology to its modern status as pseudoscience is misleading and unhelpful for a proper understanding of it. I could again point out that all those editors speaking of 'preponderance of evidence' and it being a 'pure example' of pseudoscience never cite one source to back up their actual position, i.e., that astrology's status as pseudoscience is wholly unambiguous, and that it is the most important aspect about the topic that must be the very first thing we mention about it, without any context (no 'watering it down'!). I could again point out that these editors willfully ignore the many reliable sources provided that directly contradict their claim and treat the question with much more nuance (have any of these editors even read Thagard's widely cited –cf. Hanson 2021– paper "Why Astrology is a Pseudoscience"?). But I have done all of that in the previous RfC, which essentially dealt with the same question as this one, and whose result clearly indicates that the answer to the question posed here should be no. This is therefore a Bad RfC that is trying to relitigate an RfC that had been open for more than a month and that just closed, and it should be closed as soon as possible. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 13:45, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- You are flogging a dead horse. - Roxy the English speaking dog 15:55, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Roxy, I want to clarify that I, not Apaugasma, opened this RFC. If I wanted to relitigate the previous RFC, as Apaugasma claims, I would indeed relitigate that. I think ScottishFinnishRadish was too quick with their close of it. There wasn't a consensus, just a slight majority for one of 3 options. But I don't actually mind the way the lead of the article reads right now. It has the word "divine" which I like. It has the word "pseudoscience' which is policy. Sure, the lead is skewed to the good ole days when science wasn't science and Astrology could be counted amongst those not-yet-science things. In other words, three hundred years ago. But, whatevs, it reads fine and clarifies the actual current status of Astrology. The problem is that Apaugasma, ScottishFinnishRadish and AndyTheGrump have made it clear that don't want the word "pseudoscience" in the shortdescription. THAT was not determined by the previous RFC at all. So here we are. DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't care about the word pseudoscience in the shortdesc. I can guarantee that I've dedicated no brain processing power to it. My issue is that you didn't discuss this beforehand, and it's quite likely a compromise could have been found. Also, if the consensus is to include pseudoscience, there still won't be any consensus as to the actual wording, so then it's fine for even more discussions and RFCs. If RFCBEFORE was done, there would likely be actual shortdescs to !vote on. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:58, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. It's not a dead horse, it's a horse that is not even born yet!
First come up with a short description that at least tries to meet WP:SD40. Then explain why it should be better than the current one, 'Divination based on the movements of the stars' (there does seem to be some room for improvement there). Then maybe we can do the RfC thing, where we decide between actual proposals rather than an abstract principle of using a particular pejorative in the SD or not. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:51, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Actually, "flogging a dead horse" – implied cruelty aside – is pretty close to the mark. You seem to be making well-researched, carefully reasoned, policy-based arguments to people whose only response is to put their hands over their ears and chant "Astrology is pseudoscience!" like a mantra or some kind of sacred wiki-dogma. It's as if they're trying to turn Misplaced Pages into a pseudo-religion. The strangest part is that at no stage has anyone actually been arguing that astrology isn't pseudoscience. Harold the Sheep (talk) 01:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's more than a mantra, it confers real power. Once an editor can invoke PSEUDOSCIENCE (or FRINGE), they get a partial exemption from NPOV, RS, TENDENTIOUS, and CIVIL. - Palpable (talk) 04:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Actually, "flogging a dead horse" – implied cruelty aside – is pretty close to the mark. You seem to be making well-researched, carefully reasoned, policy-based arguments to people whose only response is to put their hands over their ears and chant "Astrology is pseudoscience!" like a mantra or some kind of sacred wiki-dogma. It's as if they're trying to turn Misplaced Pages into a pseudo-religion. The strangest part is that at no stage has anyone actually been arguing that astrology isn't pseudoscience. Harold the Sheep (talk) 01:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. It's not a dead horse, it's a horse that is not even born yet!
- I don't care about the word pseudoscience in the shortdesc. I can guarantee that I've dedicated no brain processing power to it. My issue is that you didn't discuss this beforehand, and it's quite likely a compromise could have been found. Also, if the consensus is to include pseudoscience, there still won't be any consensus as to the actual wording, so then it's fine for even more discussions and RFCs. If RFCBEFORE was done, there would likely be actual shortdescs to !vote on. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:58, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Roxy, I want to clarify that I, not Apaugasma, opened this RFC. If I wanted to relitigate the previous RFC, as Apaugasma claims, I would indeed relitigate that. I think ScottishFinnishRadish was too quick with their close of it. There wasn't a consensus, just a slight majority for one of 3 options. But I don't actually mind the way the lead of the article reads right now. It has the word "divine" which I like. It has the word "pseudoscience' which is policy. Sure, the lead is skewed to the good ole days when science wasn't science and Astrology could be counted amongst those not-yet-science things. In other words, three hundred years ago. But, whatevs, it reads fine and clarifies the actual current status of Astrology. The problem is that Apaugasma, ScottishFinnishRadish and AndyTheGrump have made it clear that don't want the word "pseudoscience" in the shortdescription. THAT was not determined by the previous RFC at all. So here we are. DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- You are flogging a dead horse. - Roxy the English speaking dog 15:55, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, idk why this is even a debate requiring an RFC but as stated above this description is inline with the preponderance of the evidence. OgamD218 (talk) 08:29, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hi OgamD218, being FRS-summoned here, perhaps you misunderstood the question to be is astrology a pseudoscience? However, everyone here agrees that it is a pseudoscience. The question is rather, should the word pseudoscience be used in the short description? A question that should have been added though is, how do you propose to use it while keeping the SD sufficiently short? Any idea for a good short description? This is an honest question. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:19, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Apaugasma, you desire to make it short is not based on policy. WP:SD40, is not a policy. WP:Pseudoscience is actual policy. You need a good reason to contradict policy. DolyaIskrina (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Nobody needs any reason whatsoever to ignore false claims about Misplaced Pages policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE -- "Any inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." Astrology is the pseudoscientific view and it should be described as such. That's policy. You can't WP:LAWYER your way out of that. DolyaIskrina (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's clearly described as such in the first sentence of the lead. There's no need to weaponize policy for what is in fact an editorial preference. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE -- "Any inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." Astrology is the pseudoscientific view and it should be described as such. That's policy. You can't WP:LAWYER your way out of that. DolyaIskrina (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Nobody needs any reason whatsoever to ignore false claims about Misplaced Pages policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Apaugasma, you desire to make it short is not based on policy. WP:SD40, is not a policy. WP:Pseudoscience is actual policy. You need a good reason to contradict policy. DolyaIskrina (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Yes.I think astrology should definitely be described as pseudoscience in the lead. At the very least, "discredited" or "unscientific" or something along the lines of "incorrect assumption." It's one word. It's an important descriptor. It won't take up too much space in the lead.BooleanQuackery (talk) 21:08, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- This isn't a question about what the lede says. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:11, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes (I'm the author of this RFC). Astrology has been the quintessential pseudoscience for hundreds of years and was even questioned prior to that by thinkers such as St. Augustine, Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen) and Avicenna. It is policy to identify pseudoscience as such. It is UNDUE to give priority to a definition that would only make sense 300 years ago. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:31, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Medieval rejections of astrology were motivated by theological disputes over the nature of free will and divine providence, as well as over disagreements about the detailed workings of cosmology. But there was a wide agreement that the planets and stars did have a causal influence on terrestrial events. See Freudenthal 2009, p. 245:
Maimonides himself, as also other thinkers in the tradition of the falsafah like Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and al-Fārābı̄, indeed had a hard time when they tried to refute astrology while yet recognizing that the existence of celestial influences on the sublunary world seemed indubitable.
What medieval critics of astrology questioned were always the details of the system, not its general principle. See, e.g., Freudenthal 2009, p. 267:Interesting is also the ambivalence that Averroes expresses in his commentary on Avicenna’s medical poem Arjūzah (or: Urjūzah). Notwithstanding Avicenna’s uncompromising rejection of astrology, the poem expresses an astrologically-inspired position concerning the influence of the Moon on the evolution of human illness (Michot 2006, 49*–50*). This elicits from Averroes comments on his attitude to astrology. He explains the astrological assumptions concerning beneficent and maleficent planets and concludes with the remark: “all this is at variance with what has been demonstrated in natural science, namely, that the actions of the planets are all good, and that the existing things here all draw their existence from their motion.”
That all terrestrial things draw their existence from the motion of the stars is simply basic Aristotelian doctrine; see Saif 2016, pp. 186–187:In On Generation and Corruption, Physics, and Meteorology Aristotle sees the circular motion of the celestial spheres as the efficient cause of the generation of species and considers it responsible for the transformation and alteration of the elements and simple bodies. However, celestial efficient causality is more fully explicated in Arabic early medieval texts on astrology such as those of Abū Maʿšar al-Balḫī.
About Augustine, Barton 1994, pp. 77–78 tells us the following:Augustine argues against the Ciceronian argument that divine foreknowledge removes free will. However, he seems to see human wills as in the order of causes determined by God (certus Deo). When it comes to astrology, he finds himself in agreement with Cicero, and indeed trots out some of the old pagan arguments against astrology. The argument is tortuous. Christian prophecy is allowed, but pagan divination of the future, including astrology, is condemned as the work of evil daemons. This allows a small concession to the validity of astrology: the daemons sometimes obtain revelations from divine signs, which are mixed in with their otherwise lying predictions.
To speak of such ancient and medieval criticisms of astrology as demonic or as not in accordance with the right interpretation of Aristotelian cosmology in the same terms as modern rejections of it as pseudoscience is completely anachronistic, and universally rejected by historians. Moreover, what is truly wp:undue is to narrow the focus on astrology's modern status as pseudoscience, thereby ignoring 90% of the literature on the subject. We're saying it's been recognized as pseudoscience for 300 years in the lead sentence and we are dedicating a long and detailed section on astrology and pseudoscience in the body of the article, but it's simply against reliable sources to frame the whole subject from that modern, presentist perspective. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 16:50, 26 July 2022 (UTC)- Barton, Tamsyn (1994). Ancient Astrology. London and New York: Routledge.
- Freudenthal, Gad (2009). "The Astrologization of the Aristotelian Cosmos: Celestial Influences on the Sublunar World in Aristotle, Alexander of Aphrodisias, and Averroes". In Bowen, Alan; Wildberg, Christian (eds.). New Perspectives on Aristotle’s De caelo. Leiden: Brill. pp. 239–281.
- Saif, Liana (2016). "The Universe and the Womb: Generation, Conception, and the Stars in Islamic Medieval Astrological and Medical Texts". Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies. 16: 181–198.
- You obviously have an interest in this topic. Perhaps you are an expert of some sort? In which case you might want to think if you have a WP:COI. Do you work in a related field? COI are not bad things, but they need to be disclosed. Expert input is needed. Either way, I think your interest/expertise might be inclining you to try to make an article that is not for the average reader. Further, you are also being inconsistent in your historical relativism. You can't both call astrology "the science of three hundred years ago" and then try to dismiss the ancient critics of Astrology as merely "theological". Remember, there was no scientific method then so it was all science, right? I don't mean to dispute your more nuanced point about whether or not those ancient thinkers accepted the notion of celestial influence or whether or not they were speaking metaphysically or naturalistically, what I am about is protecting the needs of the average reader. Please read WP:ASTONISH. Please read the article as it is currently written. Do you honestly think that is is skewed towards the present? I think it is way too skewed to the past. This is an article for average readers today. DolyaIskrina (talk) 17:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is (or is supposed to be) an encyclopaedia. Not a platform for the promotion of ignorance. Having a clue about topics you write about is a good thing. It isn't a 'conflict of interest'. And nor is it a 'conflict of interest' to suggest that the purpose of articles is to educate readers about things they don't know about - which is presumably why they are reading this article. An article discussing a topic that has been of significance for millennia. If readers are unaware of this, we should tell them about it. In detail. You cannot possibly understand the present status of astrology without understanding its deep historical roots. Go peddle your pseudoskeptic rejections of learning somewhere else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Conflict of Interest, is an unfortunate term. It does sound like it's a bad thing, but it actually isn't... usually. But one does need to disclose if one has a COI per policy. If it were up to me there would be something like "expert" or "interested party" to designate someone who isn't necessarily making money off of a topic, but who has professional skin in the game. I agree that we don't want to say that the ideal editor is someone without deep knowledge. We WANT to encourage expert editing. But I do think that sometimes editors, often those with a high degree of interest in the topic, get too close to a topic to understand how an article is coming across to the average reader. DolyaIskrina (talk) 19:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you have any evidence that anyone here has an undisclosed conflict of interest, report it at Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Otherwise, I suggest you strike such comments, and stick to discussing the article. Carry on like this and I will report you for disruption. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:17, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- As my user page states, I'm a devoted student of the history of philosophy, religion, and science. I have published, but nothing that would be of relevance for this article. I'm aware of WP:SELFCITE, but it doesn't apply here. I'm not selectively rendering the POV of a certain 'school' within history of science, just the majority view. Everything I've written on this talk is just really general background knowledge that is commonly accepted by most everyone in the field, which may be readily ascertained by looking at the nature of the sources I cited. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you have any evidence that anyone here has an undisclosed conflict of interest, report it at Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Otherwise, I suggest you strike such comments, and stick to discussing the article. Carry on like this and I will report you for disruption. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:17, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Conflict of Interest, is an unfortunate term. It does sound like it's a bad thing, but it actually isn't... usually. But one does need to disclose if one has a COI per policy. If it were up to me there would be something like "expert" or "interested party" to designate someone who isn't necessarily making money off of a topic, but who has professional skin in the game. I agree that we don't want to say that the ideal editor is someone without deep knowledge. We WANT to encourage expert editing. But I do think that sometimes editors, often those with a high degree of interest in the topic, get too close to a topic to understand how an article is coming across to the average reader. DolyaIskrina (talk) 19:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- A pseudoscience is something that claims to adhere to scientific principles and methodologies but in fact does not. Scientific principles and methodologies were not by far as rigorous and fixed in the Middle Ages as they are now, but to the extent that they existed, astrology adhered to them. One thing that medieval astrology (as well as alchemy) had going against it was that is drew more upon Stoic physics than upon Aristotelian physics, which meant that it attracted much criticism from the dominant tradition of medieval philosophy, Aristotelianism. However, the situation was still more like the different and competing theoretical frameworks in modern physics (e.g., loop quantum gravity vs string theory) than like one theoretical framework being 'science' and the other one only falsely claiming to be 'science'. Both were highly speculative, and none was based on rigorous empirical testing (though alchemy did show a notable tendency to the latter, and the medical context of most medieval astrology also made its adherents more 'dirty handed' than your average scholastic).Moreover, one needs to keep in mind that none of the competing traditions of ancient and medieval natural philosophy ever had much influence upon how the large majority of common people viewed the world, which was rather informed by religious models. This whole thing of falsely claiming to be science only became big in the modern world, where science is the dominant epistemological framework, and where claims of being scientific convey meanings of authority, credibility and truth. It's not that such a thing did not exist at all in the Middle Ages (though claims of truth and authority were much more often based on correct adherence to religious principles), but its meaning and reach was different enough for historians not to conflate it with the modern phenomenon of pseudoscience.It's also simply not accurate to imagine that what today are classic examples of pseudoscience, such as alchemy and astrology, were necessarily archetypes of false science in the Middle Ages. That status is, as Hanegraaff illustrated in detail in his brilliant 2012 monograph, an artefact of Enlightenment polemics. Among historians of science, this has been the majority view at least since Thorndike 1955. Yes, our current article reads more like a 19th-century piece of Whig history, but it's nothing new that Misplaced Pages articles are crap. The good thing is that they can be improved. I've said this before, starting with the lead (and short description) wasn't the brightest idea, but then I do like it very much that at least the lead now does set the proper tone. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is (or is supposed to be) an encyclopaedia. Not a platform for the promotion of ignorance. Having a clue about topics you write about is a good thing. It isn't a 'conflict of interest'. And nor is it a 'conflict of interest' to suggest that the purpose of articles is to educate readers about things they don't know about - which is presumably why they are reading this article. An article discussing a topic that has been of significance for millennia. If readers are unaware of this, we should tell them about it. In detail. You cannot possibly understand the present status of astrology without understanding its deep historical roots. Go peddle your pseudoskeptic rejections of learning somewhere else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- You obviously have an interest in this topic. Perhaps you are an expert of some sort? In which case you might want to think if you have a WP:COI. Do you work in a related field? COI are not bad things, but they need to be disclosed. Expert input is needed. Either way, I think your interest/expertise might be inclining you to try to make an article that is not for the average reader. Further, you are also being inconsistent in your historical relativism. You can't both call astrology "the science of three hundred years ago" and then try to dismiss the ancient critics of Astrology as merely "theological". Remember, there was no scientific method then so it was all science, right? I don't mean to dispute your more nuanced point about whether or not those ancient thinkers accepted the notion of celestial influence or whether or not they were speaking metaphysically or naturalistically, what I am about is protecting the needs of the average reader. Please read WP:ASTONISH. Please read the article as it is currently written. Do you honestly think that is is skewed towards the present? I think it is way too skewed to the past. This is an article for average readers today. DolyaIskrina (talk) 17:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Medieval rejections of astrology were motivated by theological disputes over the nature of free will and divine providence, as well as over disagreements about the detailed workings of cosmology. But there was a wide agreement that the planets and stars did have a causal influence on terrestrial events. See Freudenthal 2009, p. 245:
- Not sure. Certainly any post middle ages century person taking this seriously is a quack, but there are plenty of non-serious uses of zodiac signs which do not purport to be scientific. Astrology is also ancient, and predates the scientific method which is also a problem in presenting it as pseudoscientific as it wasn't so in the past.PrisonerB (talk) 09:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- No - Per Visviva, WP:SDNOTDEF includes "avoiding anything that could be understood as controversial or judgemental". I'd rather have a shorter description and just don't see a need to add vague pejorative. It's not like that is a big part of the article or not having it in short description will make a difference, and it sniffs a bit of being snarky. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- SHORTDESC is not policy. It is "norms, customs, technicalities, or practices" WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE is policy. DolyaIskrina (talk) 19:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, the point of a short description is to help a reader see that they are about to click on the right article, and this would help someone distinguish the topic from astronomy (which "divination based on the movements of the stars" may not as immediately). It is not controversial in expert sources to describe astrology as pseudoscience, but factual. Moreover, there's something in the description
Divination based on the movements of the stars
that sounds like describing Magic (illusion) asActions by magicians that defy the laws of physics
. Since short descriptions should be short (less than 40 characters), we should also discuss what should not be in the short description. Currently,the movements of the
is clutter that may help define the term, but we're not looking to define it. The descriptiondivination based on stars
would be better to help readers more quickly identify the topic. We could thus havePseudoscientific divination based on stars
(still a tiny bit long) or perhapsPseudoscience about stars
or, as Dolyalskrina suggests,Pseudoscience about celestial influence
(slightly closer to a definition but maybe a bit too astronomically technical). — Bilorv (talk) 20:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)- @Bilorv: perhaps being misled by the big image at Misplaced Pages:Short description, I always thought that SDs primarily functioned as subtitles, in which case the definitional aspect would be rather important. Calling astrology pseudoscience may not be controversial (though it is not precise: see my !vote here for ample evidence that in some significant contexts it's not considered pseudoscience, and that it is felt to be an inadequate characterization), but the main reservation here is that it is judgemental: it sounds as if we per se want to prejudge the whole subject as pseudoscientific, while we know that reliable sources do not. Purely as a search disambiguator, 'pseudoscience' may be more effective than 'divination'. I'm not entirely sure though: wouldn't
Divination based on the stars
orStar-based divination
work equally well to disambiguate from 'astronomy'? And if it would, wouldn't it be better to use the more precise and less judgemental word? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 09:45, 29 July 2022 (UTC)- @Apaugasma: WP:SDNOTDEF says
A short description is not a definition and should not attempt to define the article's subject nor to summarise the lead
(emphasis original). Slightly above, there's a more wordy description of the same point:Editors should bear in mind that short descriptions are not intended to define the subject of the article. Rather, they provide a very brief indication of the field that is covered, a short descriptive annotation, and a disambiguation in searches (especially to distinguish the subject from similarly titled subjects in different fields).
I don't agree that the term is "judgemental".I don't thinkStar-based divination
would be so clear, because the word "divination" in a formal context is not too common and its meaning in this context was not clear to me before I looked at Divination. Part of the reason I am so against thethe movements of the
clutter is that short descriptions will be read at a glance: I'd say we want to tell the reader that they're about to click on the right link or not in under 1 second, perhaps quicker. If they have to think consciously to decide whether it's the right link, they'd be better in most cases to just click the link and decide from there, rendering the short description pointless. — Bilorv (talk) 10:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Apaugasma: WP:SDNOTDEF says
- @Bilorv: perhaps being misled by the big image at Misplaced Pages:Short description, I always thought that SDs primarily functioned as subtitles, in which case the definitional aspect would be rather important. Calling astrology pseudoscience may not be controversial (though it is not precise: see my !vote here for ample evidence that in some significant contexts it's not considered pseudoscience, and that it is felt to be an inadequate characterization), but the main reservation here is that it is judgemental: it sounds as if we per se want to prejudge the whole subject as pseudoscientific, while we know that reliable sources do not. Purely as a search disambiguator, 'pseudoscience' may be more effective than 'divination'. I'm not entirely sure though: wouldn't
- For what it's worth, (such data often needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, though the difference here is obvious) it seems that people are more likely to be familiar with the words 'astrology' and 'divination' than they are with 'pseudoscience': see these Google NGram results. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes I find Bilorv's argument persuasive in this case. XOR'easter (talk) 00:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Yes for reasons stated by Bilorv NE0mAn7o! (talk) 03:48, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- No. I came here from WP:CR thinking I might close the discussion, but there isn't an obvious consensus and I decided to have an opinion instead. Many comments here have not engaged with the actual RFC question, which is not whether astrology is pseudo-scientific, or whether that word should be in the lede, but rather whether the word should specifically be used in the short description. Of course astrology is a pseudoscience. Of course the article should make that clear per WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE. But the short description is not the article. The current short description already identifies the article well, conveys that there are magical unscientific ideas involved, and doesn't waste 13 of its 40-ish recommended characters (per WP:SDLENGTH) on a word that conveys no additional meaning. I appreciate (and do not agree with) Bilory's argument above, but something like "Pseudoscience about stars" is much less clear than the current wording when it comes to identifying the topic. Furthermore short descriptions are metadata; they are specifically not intended to "define the article subject nor to summarise the lead" and should not be "controversial or judgemental" (WP:SDNOTDEF) which "pseudoscience" will be for some readers. So there is no policy requirement to include the word in the short description, and a well-supported essay indicating that it should not be. Thparkth (talk) 21:29, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
- SHORTDESC is not policy. SDNOTDEF is also not policy. WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE is policy. It is not controversial to call Astrology pseudoscience. DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with everything you said, and I believe I already mentioned these things (explicitly or implicitly) in my comment. Thparkth (talk) 20:06, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Right I think you map out the shape of the debate accurately. Brevity, and not being controversial are both indeed good goals. The question is, do they trump policy? Having a slightly longer short description seems to me to be a small price to pay in order to achieve policy. Some no !votes discuss things like "pejoritive" and "proving points" which I think are only in the eye of the beholder, but the policy is clear. We should label pseudoscience as such. DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- From what I can see there is no policy requirement to specifically use the word pseudoscience in the short description. Thparkth (talk) 23:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Right I think you map out the shape of the debate accurately. Brevity, and not being controversial are both indeed good goals. The question is, do they trump policy? Having a slightly longer short description seems to me to be a small price to pay in order to achieve policy. Some no !votes discuss things like "pejoritive" and "proving points" which I think are only in the eye of the beholder, but the policy is clear. We should label pseudoscience as such. DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with everything you said, and I believe I already mentioned these things (explicitly or implicitly) in my comment. Thparkth (talk) 20:06, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- SHORTDESC is not policy. SDNOTDEF is also not policy. WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE is policy. It is not controversial to call Astrology pseudoscience. DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- No. Like Thparkth I came here from WP:ANRFC but reading the discussion I realise that I have an opinion about the question, so I'm participating rather than closing. This question is wholly about the short description, whose purpose is to aid people in determining whether the this article is the one they are looking for or not. The arguments here, and the article itself, make it clear that labelling Astrology as a whole either "pseudoscience" or "not pseudoscience" would both be wrong. Accordingly the short description should not state or imply either position. Thryduulf (talk) 14:19, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
- If the article fails to make it clear that Astrology is a pseudoscience, then the article is in violation of WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:05, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- It's mentioned in the first sentence of the lead, and again in more elaborate wording in the second paragraph of the lead (disappeared as an area of legitimate scientific pursuit, no scientific validity or explanatory power, lost its academic and theoretical standing). It's also abundantly covered in the Scientific analysis and criticism section, which is entirely devoted to astrology and pseudoscience. We're not leaving the slightest doubt about astrology's utter lack of scientific credibility in the contemporary context, which is of course as everyone here agrees it should be. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:27, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Thryduulf is making a "both sides" argument, saying that the article has not come down on one side or the other so neither should the short description. This, however, is contrary to policy which is that we label pseudoscience as such. So if the article is as clear as you say about which side we land on, then the short description should follow suit and make it clear that Astrology is pseudoscience. DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- It's mentioned in the first sentence of the lead, and again in more elaborate wording in the second paragraph of the lead (disappeared as an area of legitimate scientific pursuit, no scientific validity or explanatory power, lost its academic and theoretical standing). It's also abundantly covered in the Scientific analysis and criticism section, which is entirely devoted to astrology and pseudoscience. We're not leaving the slightest doubt about astrology's utter lack of scientific credibility in the contemporary context, which is of course as everyone here agrees it should be. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:27, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- If the article fails to make it clear that Astrology is a pseudoscience, then the article is in violation of WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:05, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- No. A short description shouldn't qualify the subject in this manner. This just seems like an attempt to be able to "I told you so!" people with their phone during an argument. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 23:55, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
- Policy is clear. We are required, in fact, to qualify the subject in this manner. DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:57, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- I know, which is why do. Right there in the article. There is no policy regarding putting pseudoscience in every short description. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Policy is clear. We are required, in fact, to qualify the subject in this manner. DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:57, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Proposals
The text now:
"Divination based on the movements of the stars."
Old text (having had long consensus approval):
"Pseudoscience claiming celestial objects influence human affairs."
Proposed text (if we don't just keep old version)
- "Pseudoscience about celestial influence"
this is shorter than both and more accurate than the new, because "stars" ignores planets, commets, moons and meteors. Also it complies with WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE. DolyaIskrina (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Please stop pretending that WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE mandates specific wording for short descriptions. It doesn't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:40, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE -- "Any inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Which in no shape or form in any way mandates (or even suggests) that the short description in this article (or any other) has to include any one specific word. That isn't even remotely policy.
- WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE -- "Any inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- It should be noted that only the first description above actually tells readers what the subject of article actually is. The second is vague, and the third more so, to the extent that it entirely fails to fulfil the purpose of a short description: "a concise explanation of the scope of the page". 'Celestial influence' could mean almost anything - including things which science recognises as very real, and considers essential to human life. The seasons are the result of 'celestial influence'. As are the tides. And isn't sunlight 'celestial influence'? Astrology is now rejected as pseudoscience not because it proposes 'celestial influence' in the abstract, but because it is a form of divination based on principles incompatible with what we actually know about how the universe beyond our own planet influences things. And if it is really so essential to assert that science now rejects astrology in the short description, a mere assertion that it is pseudoscience is a piss-poor way to do so anyway. It is vacuous sloganising, an insult to readers intelligence, and better suited to billboards in Pyongyang than on a website which claims to be promoting knowledge. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm. I asked this before, but to be clear, do you think the word divine implies "pseudoscience"? Yes, I agree that my proposed SD is not better than the original one. But I disagree that the new one is better. I like "human affairs" and "celestial objects." Stars is just wrong. How about "pseudoscience about celestial influence on human affairs." DolyaIskrina (talk) 15:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- How about proposing a short description that actually tells readers what the article is about. Which is divination - a word readers ought to be familiar with. Or if they aren't, they have the article to read to find out in the case of astrology, or an entire article on the subject if they want to find out more. 'Pseudoscience' isn't a description of astrology at all - it is a statement about what it isn't. Vacuous sloganising for the sake of it, at best. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm. I asked this before, but to be clear, do you think the word divine implies "pseudoscience"? Yes, I agree that my proposed SD is not better than the original one. But I disagree that the new one is better. I like "human affairs" and "celestial objects." Stars is just wrong. How about "pseudoscience about celestial influence on human affairs." DolyaIskrina (talk) 15:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- It should be noted that only the first description above actually tells readers what the subject of article actually is. The second is vague, and the third more so, to the extent that it entirely fails to fulfil the purpose of a short description: "a concise explanation of the scope of the page". 'Celestial influence' could mean almost anything - including things which science recognises as very real, and considers essential to human life. The seasons are the result of 'celestial influence'. As are the tides. And isn't sunlight 'celestial influence'? Astrology is now rejected as pseudoscience not because it proposes 'celestial influence' in the abstract, but because it is a form of divination based on principles incompatible with what we actually know about how the universe beyond our own planet influences things. And if it is really so essential to assert that science now rejects astrology in the short description, a mere assertion that it is pseudoscience is a piss-poor way to do so anyway. It is vacuous sloganising, an insult to readers intelligence, and better suited to billboards in Pyongyang than on a website which claims to be promoting knowledge. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Proposal I would suggest that the short description include the phrasing "pseudoscientific divination". There isn't, and cannot be, room for nuance in a short description. I read Thagard's essay, and yes, it is full of nuance, but it is also 44 years old, and quite dated. He says that his own criterion marks astrology as pseudoscientific, but I found his arguments unpersuasive, especially because he credulously cites the statistical results obtained by self-described "neo-astrologer" Michel Gauquelin "to suggest that through the use of statistical techniques astrology is at least verifiable". He lost me there. Carlstak (talk) 16:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Isn't all divination pseudoscientific? Popcornfud (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, of course, but some readers don't know that—it's an adjective that clarifies the meaning, just as we might say "that damned pseudoscientific intelligent design" (I can assure you that many of them have no idea what either word means, but those who don't will tend to be the very ones who believe in astrology and intelligent design). I'm trying to suggest an alternative that will put this nightmare to an end.;-) Carlstak (talk) 17:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I like any of the above proposals. Interestingly the article divination does not have the word "pseudoscientific" on the page. apparently only dowsing is (divination + pseudoscience). Just like on this page there is an attempt to say that only (astrology + 1800 years = pseudoscience) DolyaIskrina (talk) 17:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I see your reasoning - but personally I can't support a shortdesc that's tautological. This isn't the place to teach readers what "divination" means. Popcornfud (talk) 10:40, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I threw the I Ching and the oracle told me that divination is nonsense and that you are wrong.;-) Carlstak (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- There's two types of people in the world. People who don't need to be told that divination is fake, and people who won't believe you when you tell them. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hahaha. I had to smoke some weed to clear my mind after reading half this page.;-) Carlstak (talk) 17:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, of course, but some readers don't know that—it's an adjective that clarifies the meaning, just as we might say "that damned pseudoscientific intelligent design" (I can assure you that many of them have no idea what either word means, but those who don't will tend to be the very ones who believe in astrology and intelligent design). I'm trying to suggest an alternative that will put this nightmare to an end.;-) Carlstak (talk) 17:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- No***Because the prefix pseudo- indicates something false or spurious, of which I Astrology is neither. MOS:CONTENTIOUSWritethisway (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- Late, but no, all divination is not pseudoscientific. Pseudoscientific is not synonymous with false, it is a very specific category, As per the Pseudoscience page:
Pseudoscience consists of statements, beliefs, or practices that claim to be both scientific and factual but are incompatible with the scientific method.
Ifá divination, for example, is entirely religious and makes no claim to be scientific. The vast majority of divinatory practices do not claim to be scientific. Astrology is a special case. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!(talk or whatever) 14:45, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Merge Astrology, Western Astrology, Zodiac, History of Astrology?
Check out all these pages: Western astrology, Zodiac, History of astrology. I am open to suggestions, but it seems to me that Western astrology and Zodiac should be merged, and this page we are on now Astrology should merge with History of astrology. Thoughts? DolyaIskrina (talk) 23:44, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see how you could merge Western astrology and Zodiac because Western astrology is pseudoscience while Zodiac is a region in the sky, as well as a celestial coordinate system. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- The Zodiac article is primarily about the constellations, although it does discuss astrology, and the Western astrology article is primarily about the pseudoscience, although it does discuss the zodiac. Perhaps the Zodiac article has too much material about astrology and vice versa, but I don't think the solution is to merge the two articles, which are, or should be, about two completely different topics. CodeTalker (talk) 00:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ah good point. I like your idea of moving the Astrology specific material to "western astrology". Is Zodiac used much outside of astrology anymore? DolyaIskrina (talk) 00:29, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's used much less frequently in astronomical writing that it used to be, but it's still sometimes used to refer to the 12 constellations along the ecliptic, as well as that area of the sky. For example, a search for "zodiac" in the web site for Astronomy magazine returns 931 results. A quick scan indicates to me that a few of them are actually references to astrology, but more are about the constellations, and even more are about the zodiacal light. A similar search in the web site for Sky and Telescope magazine returns 3620 results with a similar distribution. CodeTalker (talk) 00:39, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ok. Thanks for info. Part of my reason for proposing these mergers is that there is some fuzziness about whether or not each of these pages is about the history of their topic or about how the topic is being used today. Once I have enough clarity, I'll take it to the talk pages of the specific pages. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:14, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Astrology covers far more than just history, but it properly contains a history section with "main" link to History of astrology. As the article at the root of its tree, it also contains sections on Western astrology, Hindu astrology, and Chinese astrology: these are large enough (and easily notable enough) topics for substantial subsidiary articles. There is always scope for discussion on the amount of coverage of subsidiary topics in the top-level article (I happen to think the balance pretty reasonable at the moment) but that's a matter for adjustment not merger. Zodiac is both a substantial subsidiary article, and partly astronomical not astrological, so as stated above, a merger would not make sense. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Gotcha. This page is meant to be the main page with all the other pages being more detailed. DolyaIskrina (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Astrology covers far more than just history, but it properly contains a history section with "main" link to History of astrology. As the article at the root of its tree, it also contains sections on Western astrology, Hindu astrology, and Chinese astrology: these are large enough (and easily notable enough) topics for substantial subsidiary articles. There is always scope for discussion on the amount of coverage of subsidiary topics in the top-level article (I happen to think the balance pretty reasonable at the moment) but that's a matter for adjustment not merger. Zodiac is both a substantial subsidiary article, and partly astronomical not astrological, so as stated above, a merger would not make sense. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ok. Thanks for info. Part of my reason for proposing these mergers is that there is some fuzziness about whether or not each of these pages is about the history of their topic or about how the topic is being used today. Once I have enough clarity, I'll take it to the talk pages of the specific pages. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:14, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's used much less frequently in astronomical writing that it used to be, but it's still sometimes used to refer to the 12 constellations along the ecliptic, as well as that area of the sky. For example, a search for "zodiac" in the web site for Astronomy magazine returns 931 results. A quick scan indicates to me that a few of them are actually references to astrology, but more are about the constellations, and even more are about the zodiacal light. A similar search in the web site for Sky and Telescope magazine returns 3620 results with a similar distribution. CodeTalker (talk) 00:39, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ah good point. I like your idea of moving the Astrology specific material to "western astrology". Is Zodiac used much outside of astrology anymore? DolyaIskrina (talk) 00:29, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- These are distinct topics and the articles are pretty long, I don't agree with a merge.PrisonerB (talk) 10:26, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I now realize I should have added Horoscope to the candidate merge. Of all these pages, that one needs the most work. DolyaIskrina (talk) 15:54, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Glad we agree on most of this! Horoscope is a substantial topic and certainly notable; I think it makes very good sense as a separate article. I will hazard a well-informed guess that the problem with sources is that any of the numerous guides to how to cast a horoscope have been disallowed as pseudoscience and primary, which does make writing an article about it rather difficult. Historical sources would presumably escape that trap but they'd be beyond the capabilities of most editors (since a) they have to find them, b) read them and c) have enough understanding of trines and houses to make sense of them). None of that reduces either the large size of the subject (certainly hundreds of books over the centuries), nor its notability. The text as it stands is actually not too bad, though the "scientific criticism" section is about astrology rather than horoscopes specifically. Anyway, there's good reason not to merge. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:25, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2022
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According to several studies, Sixtus IV was the first Catholic pope to draw up and interpret a horoscope, Leo X and Paul III always relied on the advice of astrologers, and Julius II chose his coronation date astrologically.
Please, insert it to "Cultural impact" section Marcypfv (talk) 22:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Not done. Academia and Zodiac Sign are not reliable sources. The 1917 version of the The Catholic Encyclopedia is too outdated to be considered a reliable source. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
References
- "The Condemnation of Astrology: The Secret Vatican Archives and Pope Sixtus V". University of Connecticut Alumnus.
- "Some True Facts About Astrology". Zodiac Sign.
- "Pope Sixtus V". Catholic Encyclopedia.
Please add to literature list, for a more balanced overview
Carlson, S. "Astrology" in Experientia, vol. 44, p. 290 (1988). A clear review.
Carlson, S. "A Double Blind Test of Astrology" in Nature, vol. 318, p. 419 (5 Dec. 1985). A technical paper describing a good experiment examining whether astrology works.
Dean, G. "Does Astrology Need to be True?" in Skeptical Inquirer, Winter 86-87, p. 116; Spring 1987, p. 257. An important examination of tests about astrology.
Dean, G. & Kelly, I. "Does Astrology Work: Astrology and Skepticism 1975-2000" in Kurtz, Paul, ed. Skeptical Odysseys. 2001, Prometheus Books.
Kelly, I. "Modern Astrology: A Critique" in Psychological Reports, vol. 81, p. 1035 (1997). An excellent review. (An expanded version can be found on the first web site recommended below.)
Kelly, I." Why Astrology Doesn't Work" in Psychological Reports, vol. 82, p. 527 (1998).
Kurtz, P. & Fraknoi, A. "Scientific Tests of Astrology Do Not Support Its Claims" in Skeptical Inquirer, Spring 1985, p. 210.
Kurtz, P., et al. "Astrology and the Presidency" in Skeptical Inquirer, Fall 1988, p. 3. A good summary of the controversy concerning astrology in the Reagan White House.
Lovi, G. "Zodiacal Signs Versus Constellations" in Sky & Telescope, Nov. 1987, p.507. 2A02:A020:1:F1BB:DDB5:F37B:F8E8:AD0F (talk) 23:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
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