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Talk:Paweł Holszański

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Notable?

Paweł Holszański -wikipedia google search of English pages gives exactly zero hits. Two links that pop-up are irrelevant to whoever this is. Please prove notabiliuty before removing the tag. --Irpen 06:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually as notable as any Polish magnate in this project is. The Olshansky were a great family, rather Lithuanian than Polish, though. --Ghirla 08:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Very well, I think any magnate is indeed notable. It was nopt clear to me from the article. Perhaps an unusual spelling? Anyway, thanks. --Irpen 08:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that to you Irpen and Ghirlandajo it should be no surprise that particular user is pushing his polish pov. M.K. 09:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, he would be notable if he wasn't Polish, but now that he is nothing can be done. Being a prince and a bishop of the second largest bishopric in Central Europe at the time is not enough to be notable. One would apparently have to be a Russian Orthodox bishop to be notable enough, right? //Halibutt 19:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Was he really Polish? What about Ruthenian name? Polish language was not officialy used in GDL at the time Alšėniškai/Olshanski lived Iulius 07:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, I apologize for doubting his notability but it was not fully my fault. Due to the unusual way his name is spelled, it received zero (!) counts in google when I restricted the search to English sites. By doubts of notability vanished as soon as I figured that he was of Olshanski family. For my non-trained mind the connection between Holszański and Olshanski is not straightforward. --Irpen 07:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Since he was a Lithuanian magnate, wouldn't Olshanski/y be better then Holszański?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Discussed and, hopefully, resolved at talk:Olshanski. --Irpen 18:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Alšėniškiai leads to Olshanski. It's poor editing, isn't it? Xx236 08:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Paweł is Polish writing. Any sources? Xx236 08:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Vilnius?

Xx236 11:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

One at a time, pls. Let's first agree whether we can ammend the last name to reflect the family he came from. --Irpen 18:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
A straw poll ? This is really stupid, I know. --Lysy 19:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 12 March 2023

It has been proposed in this section that Paweł Holszański be renamed and moved to Povilas Alšėniškis.

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Paweł Holszański → Povilas Alšėniškis – He was a Lithuanian noble and Lithuanian version of his name is Povilas Alšėniškis (e.g. see: Lithuanian encyclopedic source) which is the WP:COMMONNAME (19,000 results in Google search). The Polish variant of his name Paweł Holszański gives only 12,200 results in Google search, so such Polonization of a Lithuanian noble name here is absolutely unjustified per Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines (e.g. WP:NPOV, etc.). Povilas Alšėniškis currently is a redirect page, thus this renaming should be performed by an administrator. -- Pofka (talk) 14:32, 12 March 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 23:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Google Search:
Paweł Holszański: 455 results
Povilas Alšėniškis: 104 results
Google Scholar:
Paweł Holszański gives 13 resutls in Google Scholar
Povilas Alšėniškis gives only 4 results in Google Scholar
The family was pretty early Ruthenized and adopted Orthodoxy (since Ivan Olshansky, who died in 1402) but later generations adopted Catholicism and Polish language, hence the Polish sounding name is so popular. Pretty standard story for the region. Also Robert I. Frost, The Oxford History of Poland-Lithuania, p. 84: Most were Catholics, but Vytautas assigned the greatest prize of Kyiv to his Orthodox brother-in-law Ivan Holshansky, son of one of Algirdas’s followers from the Ruthenianized Alseniskai family of Lithuanian kunigaiksciaiMarcelus (talk) 09:00, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
  • Support per my initial request because of plenty of reasons:
1) WP:COMMONNAME clearly is Povilas Alšėniškis (Lithuanian language version) per Google search: Povilas Alšėniškis (19,000 results) and Paweł Holszański (11,400 results). So nearly twice more common. The Google Scholar has too few results to make decisions based on it and to ignore Google search which provide many Lithuanian sources. Marcelus, really? In the Google search you purposefully selected "Search pages in English only" to create such result and this way excluded all sources in the Lithuanian language (and other languages)? There are no valid reasons to exclude Lithuanian sources about this Lithuanian noble.
2) Article about this person in the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia use name Povilas Alšėniškis (see this article here). Of course if you search English-only sources in the Google search it will exclude such notable Lithuanian encyclopedic source.
3) Article about this person in the Lithuanian Misplaced Pages also use Lithuanian version of his name (see: lt:Povilas Alšėniškis).
4) He was a Lithuanian noble. See dedicated article about this Lithuanian noble family: Alšėniškiai.
5) Polonization of Lithuanians names is not WP:NPOV, especially when it clearly violate WP:COMMONNAME.
6) Polish variant of his name (Paweł Holszański) should be presented in brackets in the text of this article. I do not oppose that. -- Pofka (talk) 17:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Ad 1) WP:COMMONNAME: Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources); also I don't know how you are doing your google test, because not limiting it to English only pages it's still 2,820 results for Paweł Holszański, and 1,230 results for Povilas Alšėniškis.
Ad 2) That's great, but it isn't English-language source, also Lithuanian source often Lithuanize names that aren't, for example Napoleon I is called there Napoleonas I
The rest is explained by the WP:COMMONNAME, Alšėniškiai or rather Holszański family was Polonised in 15th century and Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble, that's why the Polish version of his name is so popular, because that's the name he was using himself. Marcelus (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Evidence regarding Google search by Google searching today (see screenshots). And about your statement that "Holszański family was Polonised in 15th century and Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble": can you provide WP:VERIFIABLE WP:RS precisely stating that this Lithuanian noble (and bishop of Lithuania's capital Vilnius) Povilas Alšėniškis spoke only Polish language and not Lithuanian? Otherwise, it is your personal WP:OR and you should cross that out. -- Pofka (talk) 18:31, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
I have totally different Google result, nonetheless English only pages matters, because it's English Misplaced Pages Marcelus (talk) 20:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
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