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England C‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups C‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Section sizes Section size for English people (31 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 14,118 14,118 English nationality 5,078 7,807 Relationship to Britishness 2,729 2,729 Historical and genetic origins 87 10,793 Replacement of Neolithic farmers by Bell Beaker populations 5,216 5,216 Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans 5,490 5,490 History of English people 128 38,684 Anglo-Saxon settlement 11,001 11,001 Vikings and the Danelaw 2,471 2,471 English unification 1,926 1,926 Norman and Angevin rule 3,025 3,025 United Kingdom 3,091 3,091 Immigration and assimilation 6,018 6,018 Current national and political identity 11,024 11,024 English diaspora 5,592 21,904 United States 6,043 6,043 Canada 1,733 1,733 Australia 3,068 3,068 New Zealand 3,267 3,267 Argentina 1,818 1,818 Chile 383 383 Culture 758 11,768 Religion 5,835 5,835 Language 3,059 3,059 Literature 2,116 2,116 See also 1,297 1,297 Notes 26 26 References 17 2,969 Citations 36 36 Sources 2,916 2,916 External links 341 341 Total 109,707 109,707

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Regions With Significant Populations...

There were 459,486 English people living in Scotland (almost 10% of the popultion) at the time of the 2011 census (and likely a far, far larger number than that with full or partial English ancestry depending on how far back you go, but I don't have data on that). Why is this not mentioned in the infobox? 2.99.93.88 (talk) 00:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

English_people#English_diaspora Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

And is that the infobox? 2.99.93.88 (talk) 22:00, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Clearly not. It does, though, contain the answer to your question. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:10, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

It contains the answer to my question of why the large English population of Scotland isn't in the infobox? I don't think it does contain the answer to that question, does it. Now do you maybe want to stop acting obtuse and directly answer why the large English population of Scotland is not in the infobox.

The English populations in all the other countries listed in the infobox are also mentioned later in the article. So why is the English population in Scotland not included in the infobox when it's clearly a good deal larger than some of the other current infobox entries. 2.99.93.88 (talk) 23:38, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, I thought it reasonable that you would hold attention to the end of the first sentence: "it is not possible to identify their numbers, as British censuses have historically not invited respondents to identify themselves as English". It would just as much be OR to claim all these people, without evidence, as Scots born in England. Perhaps the stat in the adjacent table should go. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:00, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Mutt, but I think the IP does raise a possible confusion in the top part of the infobox: "regions with significant populations" which says 37.6 million in England and Wales and does not mention Scotland. This is clearly explained by the source, which is the England and Wales census, but the way it is presented is a touch misleading and I think the whole number is debatable. In that same census one can put identity as British rather than English or Welsh or others, which is presumably why the number is so very much less than the population of England. There are many reasons why people would choose to call themselves British rather than English, but the decision would be personal choice and is not an objective measure with clearly set criteria.

In Scotland we know there is a significant population of English people, but we don't know how big it is. One possibility is to change the top part of the infobox to either just have a UK flag, or else add Scotland's flag. Also I would like to delete the 37.6 million figure.

Northern Ireland is trickier. The proportion of English people living there is probably lower than in Scotland or Wales but not insignificant. Northern Ireland's population, like Wales, is low though so it doesn't make a huge overall change to numbers - adding the flag is also debatable, which is why it may be easier just to have the UK flag.

These infoboxes on all ethnic group pages are always so debatable! Sometimes messing with them leads to edit wars. My feeling is sometimes less is more though.

Does anyone object to the above proposed changes? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:53, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that these infoboxes are always contentious. The selection of what to include in sections such as the regions one often seems arbitrary to me, but works better when the article is about an ethnic group within a state, where there's a single set of geographical distribution statistics rather than a mish-mash of different national measures. I don't really know what the best approach is here. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

The sentence "it is not possible to identify their numbers, as British censuses have historically not invited respondents to identify themselves as English" doesn't appear to be supported by the source cited, which is just a list of ethnic group tick boxes from the 2001 Scottish census. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:10, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Sirfurboy:, though my point was the general confusion and lack of clarity as to the significance of these figures and the related ones throughout the article, though particularly, since the IP advanced it, that there was not a sound basis for their interpretation (any more than alternate interpretations, such as the number being a monolithic group of Scots who happen to have been born in England).

I'll also note it may have been in better judgement to simply revert this returning block evading sock of User:92.14.216.40. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:33, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

True. By the way, as an American with British citizenship I always say British, not English. Doug Weller talk 11:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

What relevance does this have with anything we're talking about? 2.99.93.88 (talk) 21:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the heads up about the block evasion. Looking at the sock IPs edits, I do see a very definite similarity to some comments we saw from the IP elsewhere. At this point I feel disinclined to make any changes, although there may be a more general discussion needed regarding what figures we present throughout the article, and why. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:49, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Black and Asian English people

"Engla" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Engla and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 28#Engla until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Privybst (talk) 11:27, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

An edit that appears to take issue with the idea that the Anglo Saxons founded England was reverted, restored and reverted again. I had almost reverted the edit earlier, based purely on the initial edsum: Celtic genetics did not become widespread in the English gene pool until the late 9th century during the period of the Danish invasions and the formation of the Kingdom of England. Anglo-Saxon identity was already well established by that point. Debatable as the information there may be, I was also confused as to how we got from the edsum to the edit. Before any more edit warring ensues you might want to explain exactly what you are attempting here, but that and your (also reverted) ideas on language do suggest a certain amount of WP:OR, and indeed WP:SYNTH is going on here. Let's stick to the sources, and indeed, the editor consensus and leave it as it is please. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

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