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Talk:Valter Roman

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An entry from Valter Roman appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 4 March, 2007.
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We should coordinate better

Dpotop, you are just adding in a new created subsection the Romanian text I just had used to write the information in the lead ! :))

If i may suggest, could you look at this ? It contains extremely interesting and complex information about two proposals made by Walter Roman to the Litvinov Commission:

  1. on 24 July (1944? or 1945?) he suggests the restitution of Transylvania to Romania, cancelling the Vienna's Diktat
  2. on 28 July same year, Walter Roman endorses the fromation of an independent state Transylvania

Letter 1 is endorsed by son Petre Roman, while letter 2 was unveiled by reasercers of Communism. It is a very intricate story, where the position of a Tofic Islamov is interesting as well. It is a lot of work to clear all this. Cheers, --Vintila Barbu 14:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I read about them, but I think it's controversial material. Let's finish the non-controversial part first. Dpotop 14:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I won't edit today any more. In fact, we added the same bit of info at the same time. BTW, I think this info does not belong in the lead, but do as you think. Dpotop 14:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
BTW: to DYK this article, we simply need to beef up the link with the Hungarian revolution, the involvement in many Comm parties and the brigades (the cosmopolite aspect). :) Dpotop 14:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Vintila, I have no idea what the SRSC is. I copied it from Crisan's book. Do you know what it is. Dpotop 14:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Dimineata

The link in to the Dimineata article poses several problems: the info does not appear to be backed by any other source, it is not properly referenced in the article, and the source is quite hostile to Roman (it's not like that is an independent newspaper). Dahn 21:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You mean the first wife? Well, cut her out if need be. Biruitorul 21:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I did. I could find no other mention of the marriage and his children, so this was probably one of those duds press feels the need to detonate from time to time. Dahn 22:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Levy

A few bits, if so desired:
(161) Valter Roman was abruptly removed as Minister of Posts and Telecommunications in December 1952; placed under house arrest; subjected to daily interrogations at the Contol Commission, where he was accused of being an enemy agent in Spain; and targeted as a likely candidate to appear in a Romanian Slansky trial. Uncertain of his own position with the thaw in Soviet politics and suspicious of the loyalty of the party's old guard, Dej maintained an atmosphere of fear and intimidation in Romania in oder to ward off any attempts to replace him. Hence, Valter Roman was sanctioned with a "vote of censure (162) with a warning" in May 1954 for his "repeated anti-party manifestations", and he was not formally rehabilitated until 1956.

Small issues

as the political locum tenens of General Mihail Lascăr, commander of the Soviet-organized [[Horia, Cloşca şi Crişan Division.

as the political commissar of General Mihail Lascăr, commander of the Soviet-organized Horia, Cloşca şi Crişan Division.

The problem is partly generated by my first inssertion of politruk. I agree political commissar is better. Only that in the Red Army they were NOT subordinated to the military commanders, but were doubling them. You can not be a political commissar to some general, but you are the political commissar of a division or other unit. So maybe:

as the political commissar of the Soviet-organized Horia, Cloşca şi Crişan Division, commanded by General Mihail Lascăr.

This is of course detail, but for example older Russians who will read, will immediately see it.:Dc76 23:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Romanian communist activist

I removed the first reference to this in the first phrase of the article. Indeed, the information comes next, and qualifying Roman as a Romanian is a bit misleading. Let's leave it to the reader to decide. Dpotop 14:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I can only hope that one day you will actually read a wikipedia norm. Dahn 14:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Which one do you have in mind? Because Roman was not born in Romania, did not do his studies in Romania, did not make his name (Valter Roman) in Romania, and only came to be a Romania-related public figure as a Soviet propagandist, at Moskow-based Radio "Romania libera". Dpotop 14:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Dptop, I already had this discussion. He was a Romanian citizen come 1921 to 1938 or 1940 (depends on which anti-semitic legislation referred to him) and again from 1944-1945 to his death. Him studying in Brno does not imply that he was a citizen of Czechoslovakia. He was a citizen of Hungary before the age of 5 (he is unlikely to have been one again in 1940); furthermore, one does not speculate about "letting readers decide what Maniu had for a citizenship", even though Maniu was Hungarian until the age of 45! To my knowledge, Roman never held any other citizenship. He was a member of the Romanian Army and an academic in a Romanian university.

Your comparison with Maniu does not hold, because Maniu always assumed his Romanian ethnicity, whereas Valter Roman assumed his Communist ideology. :) BTW, I don't really like the current start of the Iuliu Maniu article. I would have said "IM was an Austria-Hungarian and Romanian politician of Romanian ethnicity." Dpotop 15:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Again, ethnicity has no bearing on nationality. Furthermore, Roman was, well, nothing until the age of 5. Dahn 15:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

As for "making his name", I think you know perfectly what I meant.

As a matter of fact, no. I see no source talking about the Communist Neulander of before 1940. Meaning that he was at best another Communist. He made his name in the artillery unit in Spain. Dpotop 15:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
A Romanian artillery unit (speaking of assuming nationality...). But he actually made his name as a communist in Romania. Dahn 15:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages conventions clearly state that the nationality (not ethnicity) is to be specified in the opening paragraph. Cease being disruptive. Dahn 14:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll try another variant. Dpotop 15:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
... Dahn 15:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Why do you have to be such an ass, and not explain what you have in your head? I can't guess? Because my new version had nothing on ethnicity. I just left him a Romanian activist, as you wanted it. But did you read my text, at least? Dpotop 15:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Dpotop, "Romanian" is a nationality. "Romanian Communist Party" is not. Quit POV-pushing. As for explaining, my version is self-explanatory. You could do without, and I recommend you do without, the personal attacks. Dahn 15:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Blanking sources

Icare, while I can live with most of your reverts, I really see no need for this, you're blanking sources. Am I missing something?--Domitius 13:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I reverted to my version which had been labeled "vandalism" and I had not noticed the new material. The sources I willingly did erase were superfluous (did not support any controversial point). Aside from this, I feel that there is too much citation of Vladimir Tismaneanu. It looks to me as if all the Romanian history section of WP were written by this guy, who is a rather dubious source knowing the hald-line marxist-leninist stance he adopted in the first half of his life, and the huge controversy he provoked recently with his Commission. This Commission and report it issued should not be used extensively as sources before the controversy is cleared. (Icar 14:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC))

You deleted, consciously (as shown by the fact that you did it in three consecutive edits), all information from Levy, Cioroianu, and Tismăneanu, including a direct quote from Roman himself. In fact, you removed a source in its entirety. Your theory on Tismăneanu does not hold water: the University of Maryland, the University of Pennsylvania, the Romanian Presidency, and countless academic institutions back his credentials and expertise, but Icar does not. So is the absurdity about "too many sources", which is contrary to several wikipedia policies. This is outrageous: there is simply nothing to mediate here - this is a question of vandalism on your part, and I am frankly ashamed that you were not blocked for it. Dahn 14:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Guys...stop edit warring. If you want I'm willing to mediate you. Icar said it's ok, what about you Dahn? --HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 14:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I see no cause for mediation when a vandal intervenes on a page. I find it absurd that it is even suggested. Someone comes in here and writes a new lead based on his POV (against wikipedia conventions on leads), deletes information and sources, botches text to make sources say what they do not in fact say, and I, a reliable contributor, am asked to somehow allow this to happen. It's outrageous, especially since, at this very moment, the other user is actively campaigning against me on several discussion pages. Note: much of the deleted information was actually provided by User:Biruitorul, and only edited in by me (see above). Dahn 14:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
You describe yourself as a reliable contributor, yet you call user:Icar a vandal. I think you would need mediation, yet you should read WP:CIVIL. Will you stop calling others as "vandals"? --HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 14:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
You need to ask yourself: is removal of text and reliable sources vandalism? I describe myself as a reliable contributor because I am a reliable contributor, and I hope people have the sense not to question that. Dahn 14:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I question that, and others will question that too. See above your behaviour. --HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 14:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
And you actually want to mediate when entertaining such notions? I will ask you again: is this vandalism or is it not? And what I see above and on Icar's talk page is evidence that it was identified as such by other users. Dahn 14:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Dahn, I need time to read and research. If you want I can mediate this dispute. --HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 14:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
No, I do not. This is the third time I am saying it. Dahn 16:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel this to be yet another pointless edit war started by the inability of User:Dahn to explain his technical position with respect to edits of other users. Indeed, some of the edits of User:Icar are disputable. I feel that deleting sources is not a good policy, and my personal view is that we should only add decent sources, never delete them. However, do take a look at the edit hostory of the article, with the last 15 edits or so corresponding to the edit war. All User:Dahn does is revert, treating other users as vandals, a.s.o. No edit on the talk page. Dpotop 14:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have felt this myself one week ago, when I have tried (and succeeded) in changing an unbalanced introduction by User:Dahn. But take a look at the edit history, and imagine how disgusting it is to fight (indeed!) a user whose sole argument is "rv" or "rv vandalism". The few talk page messages shouw that he did not understand my edits, and did not try to understand. This sort of edit practices can push another users to concentrate on warring instead of refining his arguments. Dpotop 14:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW, Dahn did delete a source I added here, a source I still consider meaningful. So, Dahn, too, has a history of source deletion in spite of other editor's oppinions. Dpotop 14:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted a source that was not used in the article. Per wikipedia conventions, what is not used in the text is not "a reference". I checked the source in its entirety, and it did not mention anything about Valter Roman in particular. The rest I simply will not answer to. Dahn 16:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The quality of my contributions may have gone down lately, since I knew anyway that they were to be erased immediately with a pityful "rvv" for epitaph. I apologise to my fellow editors who do contribute in good faith.(Icar 15:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC))

Off topic, but I reported him here --HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 15:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I can only trust wikipedians will see that people who erase information are not reliable contributors. Dahn 16:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

My view

Here is why I support Dahn's version:
1. Roman was, in terms of citizenship, Romanian. He was also a soldier.
2. Dahn's version mentions he was in the Comintern, right in the second sentence.
3. He was in the PCR, but he was also a politician.
4. His son is still a politician, and has his own biography if readers want details.
5. Why not say exactly what he was broadcasting?
6. Why not give details about his downfall?
7. Why eliminate details about his anti-Ceauşism? He was a bad guy, but he wasn't a complete monster either. Let's portray the positive as well as the negative.

Please try to address these points individually, without extraneous allegations. Biruitorul 17:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

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