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User talk:Jimbo Wales

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) at 20:38, 9 May 2023 (→Petition to remove appealing to Jimbo from the Arbitration Policy). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 20:38, 9 May 2023 by Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) (→Petition to remove appealing to Jimbo from the Arbitration Policy)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

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    Arbitration Committee appeals

    Jimmy, I hope this finds you well.

    As you know, the English Misplaced Pages Arbitration Policy provides that remedies decided by the Arbitration Committee may be appealed to, and amended by, Jimbo Wales, unless the case involves Jimbo Wales's own actions.

    This provision has formally been in effect ever since you created the ArbCom in 2004. However, from my years of following the Committee's work starting in 2006 (including my years as a member), I do not recall any instance in which you overturned an ArbCom decision. There was one instance, more than ten years ago, in which you amended a decision (clarifying the terms under which a banned user might subsequently seek permission to return). Another editor recently searched the archives in detail and found the same thing.

    In light of English Misplaced Pages's "constitutional" development since 2004, an editor recently opened a thread on the ArbCom talkpage, asking whether the Arbitration Policy should be amended to remove the provision for decisions to be appealed to you. Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee#Appeals to Jimbo. Some editors suggested asking ArbCom to propose a formal amendment to the Arbitration Policy, or alternatively opening a community-wide Request for Comment prefatory to petitioning for such an amendment, either of which could be a protracted and potentially divisive process.

    At that point, I suggested that before pursuing this further, someone should simply ask you whether you even want to, or believe you should, retain this vestigial and seemingly moribund appellate role. Several other people agreed with this suggestion.

    So as a follow-up to that discussion, I am asking. Your input here would be appreciated. Thank you, Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

    Jimbo, at least hold on to this one. People keep coming here asking you to give up your powers. You've given up enough. There is no way to tell what can happen 10 years in the future, and what odd ARB decisions will be made (i.e. see all of society from ten years ago to the present), and Misplaced Pages (both as a project and individual editors) will need someone to balance out what may occur. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
    While I would prefer arbcom appeals be sent to the UCOC Enforcement Committee, once it is established, I would like to see Mr. Wales retain the ability to view deleted pages and oversighted revisions on all projects. To that end, Mr. Wales, would you support, oppose, or be neutral on a Meta RFC restoring those rights to the Founder Flag? Sandizer (talk) 19:19, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
    Would you both please consider putting your comments in a separate sub-section so that Newyorkbrad's question isn't buried by lengthy debate that would be more useful at the locus of the original discussion? Jehochman 03:10, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
    I believe this rule provides a helpful safety valve in case of a rogue ArbCom. Currently if there were a massive community outcry about some seriously problematic ArbCom decision, there is no clear answer as to what might happen. My view is that given a sufficient outcry, I would call for a new election and a reconsideration of the controversial case by a new ArbCom, or choose some similar path in line with broad community wishes. Certainly the model of me accepting an appeal from a routine case is outdated and unnecessary, and so one possibility would be to update the rule so that my role is only in terms of giving an orderly answer in the event of a seriously new crisis in our institutional arrangement. This power could also be passed to the WMF, but I think that isn't a good idea for any number of reasons, not least of which is the important independence and power of the community itself.
    To say a bit more about how I view this, as it exists. Any formal appeal to me would not and should not be about me looking at the case and thinking, oh, I would have voted differently than the majority, so I should overturn it. That would be undesirable for any numbers of reasons. But if there's a serious injustice that is generating a full and proper RfC, and an ArbCom that is refusing to go along with it - these are all extremely rare and unlikely scenarios - does need someone to step in and say "No, we will now elect a new ArbCom who will be wise to act in accordance with community wishes." Currently, our extant rules make it clear that I could do that, even though it's very much an extreme rarity. I would be happy to consider alternative arrangements, of course, but I think there can also be mistakes in attempting to take out flexibility by pre-defining every possible circumstance.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
    If I am reading this correctly, you feel that if there was a situation where
    • There was very significant community outcry about some arbitration committee decision (or other action), and
    • The will of the community was clearly expressed in the form of a full and proper RFC, and
    • The arbitration committee refused to go along with the community's will
    It would be desirable for you to retain the right to dissolve the current committee and call fresh elections for a new committee, who could then re-examine the case/action/other circumstance.
    You also feel it would be beneficial to retain the right to give "an orderly answer in the event of a seriously new crisis in our institutional arrangement."
    However, you regard "the model of accepting an appeal from a routine case is outdated and unnecessary" and so would not be opposed to relinquishing the right to do so.
    Is that correct? Thryduulf (talk) 11:03, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
    That's definitely a good summary of what I wrote, but it's worth considering that I just reflected for a moment when asked here, and I haven't given the whole matter a full and comprehensive analysis and don't want to be lawyered over every single word. But yeah, I think that sounds about right. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
    It sounds like (just to avoid WP:CREEP, and other such stuff : ) - That you suggest that "Appeal to Jimbo" is done at the community level, and not at the individual level?
    If so, I would presume that should be easy enough to say, while still leaving room for WP:IAR as necessary. I'd like to avoid Wiki-lawyers trying to box you in a corner. Does that sound about right to you? - jc37 16:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
    Where do you see that you have the power to call new elections? Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Appeal of decisions is the only section that mentions you, and only gives you the power to change individual remedies, which is precisely what you said you wouldn't do. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Selection and appointment is the section on elections, and only gives the power to call elections to ArbCom. Galobtter (talk) 22:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
    To answer Sandizer's question, I don't believe that I have any reason to have the technical ability to view deleted pages and oversighted revisions. If in some surprising instance there was some need for me to look at something like that, it could be shared with me without any need for the technical rights.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
    • Both of the following possibilities are highly unlikely, so maybe it isn't worth worrying about, but: It is much more likely that Jimbo would make a serious error in judgement and inappropriately try to dissolve ArbCom, than it is that a majority of ArbCom members (minimum seven to eight individual people) would go off the deep end and ignore a clear community opinion. This isn't a slam on Jimbo; it is also much more likely that *I* - or any single person - would go off the deep end than a majority of community-elected ArbCom members would. While both are unlikely, the safer thing to do is protect against the more likely thing, and remove Jimbo's power (or not give Jimbo a new power, depending on what actually turns out to be true) to dissolve ArbCom. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC) tweaked 22:06, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
      I would definitely not be in favor of a power to dissolve ArbCom unilaterally, for sure. I personally think I do have the power to call for new ArbCom elections but that'd be a very interesting (and not in a good way) set of circumstances. To be clear, if the three part chain of events outlined above ever did happen, I would call for new ArbCom elections, and I think that would be the only right thing to do. Whether that would have any causative impact on proceedings is a perfectly valid mystery to ponder but it seems very likely that if the ArbCom decided to defy a community RFC on some case, and if the ArbCom refused to change, and I called for a new election, that a new election would happen and the community and WMF would proceed to simply ignore the old and dissolved ArbCom.
      The power of ArbCom is not in the software and I think that's important - it's validity rests solely on the consent of the governed. To the extent that I can use my words to protect the sovereignty of the community, I will. These things are fun to contemplate but yes, extremely unlikely in practice.
      As a side note, the more interesting and likely conflict that could hypothetically arise would be a conflict between the WMF and Arbcom and/or Community (remember FRAMBAN as a crisis in this regard). In this case, I would again strongly defend the sovereignty of the community (and the delegated power of their elected body ArbCom) and support the community. Remember how much of an anomaly we are. The WMF does not get involved in such matters except in some very carefully proscribed circumstances that make sense and have longstanding precedent. I think that's important. Every other social website has a very different governance model where the company makes all the decisions with only pragmatic constraints on their power. (For example, a strong degree of exodus from twitter based on people not liking how Elon Musk is running it.). Here, we strive to be more forward looking, more "constitutional" in our outlook. Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:46, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
      Hi Jimbo. Just saw your name when looking at recent edits to Ezra Miller, that perennial BLP nightmare, and checked what else you've been up to and saw this thread. The thrust of what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me, but I do wonder if you've defined a set of circumstances where your own role is no longer necessary? What you're describing would look something like: "A consensus among the community, as expressed in an RfC , may direct Jimbo Wales to compel the dissolution of the Arbitration Committee and the commencement of a snap election, with the new committee to reconsider whatever matter(s) triggered the dissolution of its predecessor." And it seems like such a system would work just as well, and in fact probably better, without the words "direct Jimbo Wales to"; otherwise your role would be redundant to that of the RfC closer(s). That's not to say there'd be no place for you in resolving a constitutional crisis: Your !vote in any such RfC (or decision to start one, even) would obviously hold a huge amount of sway. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 02:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
      We already have such a process: amend ArbPol to require the dissolution of ArbCom. Of course, that would be a very extraordinary measure, but this would be a very extraordinary and unique circumstance. Galobtter (talk) 05:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

    Coverage of African Americans on Misplaced Pages

    I was curious about Vida Blue. A black man who won 3-world series in a row in the 70s and won a Cy Young Award. Where was he from? Where did he go to high school?

    Depending on the entry you read on Misplaced Pages he either went to Mansfield High School or DeSoto High School in Mansfield, Louisiana. Neither has an entry. Neither is even included at Mansfield High School or at DeSoto High School disambiguation pages.

    This is pretty standard for how Misplaced Pages treats these subjects. I'm already oversubmitted for entries. Maybe someone will get to the AfC backlog or review on of my submissions in the weeks to come. In the meantime I hope you can reflect on how we treat these subjects and editors working to include them. I think there's a great deal of room for improvement. Take care.

    Here's a court case with some of the issues the schools had. I think our readers should know about these subjects. Not just these two but all the other ones like them and the very notable people who fought to establish them, develop them, coach and lead at them, and who made lasting marks coming from them. FloridaArmy (talk) 03:16, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

    I'd be happy to help look for further sources, but which high school is correct?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
    From what I've read, Vida Blue attended DeSoto High School where the baseball team was established around him and he was a football star. His father died his senior year so he became a professional baseball player, rather than play college football at Notre Dame, because he wanted to help support his family. Even after becoming a star he had to strike to get paid well by the team's owner. He struggled with drugs and alcohol. It would be interesting to know what other stars and community leaders came out of schools like DeSoto High School and its predecessor DeSoto Parish Training School. Typically these subjects are excluded from Misplaced Pages. FloridaArmy (talk) 14:27, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    Reportedly he was ambidextrous and was a switch hitter who as a football quarterback could scramble to his right and throw rightie or scramble left and throw leftie. It would be interesting to read more about his high school career as an athlete and his star coach as well as the state championship teams that played for DeSoto including women's basketball and its other star players. For various reasons Misplaced Pages excludes these subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 14:33, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

    Interestingly Kenny Washington was the first African-American to sign a contract with a National Football League (NFL) team in the modern (post-World War II) era." But Pat Coffee, a Webster alum, was playing for the Chicago Cardinals in 1938? If only Misplaced Pages included African American schools, communities, biographies, and businesses maybe we could begin to get our history right and people could read about institutions other than the ones whites were involved in. FloridaArmy (talk) 15:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

    Coffee's article doesn't mention his high school and includes a link to a different high school, one where African Americans were sent after his high school was closed in the wake of desegregation. Which is exaclty how Misplaced Pages treats these subjects. Erase, obscure, obliterate. It's really a shame. We can do so much better and lead instead of being part of the problem and promoting white supremacy. Facts matter. Misinformation and discrimination shouldn't be the status quo for these subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 15:09, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

    Please remember you have been strongly warned about accusing any specific editor of white supremacy in the past. While your statement is broad, you do not want to continue down that course. We know we have systematic and other bias issues that make our coverage of African Americans pre-2000 very poor, but none of that is being done on purpose or with any motive to purposely keep that information off WP. It is a pipeline problem...too few editors working in that area, and too few usable sources to give some of these topics the depth they need. Do remember that topics like schools can be covered in articles about the towns they were in, so that even if you only write a sentence about it, it helps that article and provides a refirect/searchable topic. Masem (t) 16:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    I'm happy to work on these articles but I'm restricted. And I've also been threatened repeatedly by you Masem and others including admins and arbitrators for pointing out the problem. Suggesting that the solution is to cover these subjects somewhere else and that we don't have space or time to include the subjects themselves is disgusting and repulsive. Shame on you Masem. You are a BIG prt of the problem. Stop blocking efforts to fix this abhorrent problem on Misplaced Pages. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    I have given you the apparently necessary reminder about personal attacks. —Kusma (talk) 17:28, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    Yes, User:Kusma you have blocked me previously with false accusations. Attacking and threatening me and blocking me for trying to address white supremacy and institutional racism on Misplaced Pages is par for the course. That's why I'm here on Jimbo's page. Thanks to you both for illustrating the problem and what happens when it's discussed and attempts are made to fix it. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    This ("false accusations") is another personal attack (I blocked you for a bright line violation of your editing restrictions). As it is directed against me, I will not block you for it. —Kusma (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    What you are demonstrating is just that you are much better at complaining than at writing Misplaced Pages articles of even average quality. You have been treated extra leniently because of your choice of topics, but that seems to have been a mistake by the community. —Kusma (talk) 17:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    There us zero issue when, lacking sufficient information on a high school to make a standalone article meeting all content policies and guidelines, that discussing the school in a more notable context, such as the town it was in, and providing searchable redirects for that, is a completely fair solution. I know you'd like to see standalone articles but if simple can't find those sources, add the information to a useful place with better context. Masem (t) 18:50, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

    The Signpost: 8 May 2023

    * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

    Petition to remove appealing to Jimbo from the Arbitration Policy

    Hi, this petition has been started which is relevant to the above discussion about ArbCom appeals. Galobtter (talk) 18:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

    I have edited it, but I actually urge you to retract it and start over. Let's come up with a proposal together, rather than this contentious petition which (in your original version) badly misstated my position.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
    Category: