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Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg . Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It could be an option that we make a mention of "Unconfirmed footage of clashes", Since we don't have any way of confirming them as of right now. OneMoron (talk) 01:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We are gonna need to wait for reliable sources to report on the issue, it just occurred less than an hour ago, it could be a second civil war 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Possible involvement from other Russian military units
Multiple videos/images circulating currently of soldiers fighting alongside Wagner in Rostov wearing patches consistent with the Russian National Guard as well as vehicles belonging to other units. Nothing confirmed in terms of media coverage but just be on the lookout for it so we can update the infobox as needed.
If and when media begin to report on it, I would begin to think of this more as a coup attempt rather than a mutiny or a rebellion and would recommend changing the article title to reflect that. QuaintCable (talk) 04:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Additional Reaction to Mutiny
Add Exiled Russian-Jewish Billionarie and Liberal opposition activist Mikhail Khodorkovsky's support for the Wagner group expressed in the following posts under the "International Reactions" topic:
The infobox lists Dmitry Utkin in the "commanders and leanders" for the Wagner Group. There seems to be a lack of evidence for involvement by Utkin, however, and the man has made no public appearances since 2016. Is there any reason to believe he is involved? AmericanBaath (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Nope. I removed him and the other commander earlier and was reverted without explanation. I'm going to re-remove the material. HappyWith (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
But did he take place in this uprising specifically? That's the key issue here. Misplaced Pages isn't the place for educated guesses, even when they're factually true - it's for info that's obviously and clearly sourced to reliable publications. To actually put it in, we would need to see the Institute for the Study of War or Meduza or something saying "Dmitri Utkin was also seen leading troops in Rostov" or something like that. HappyWith (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Well, attempted coups are still called coups, whether they are successful or not. The salient point here is that Priggy is still (by the looks of it) loyal to Putin and isn't attempting to overthrow the Russian government - only a part of it. That's why coup, attempted or not, is not the right word at all. AbominableIntelligence (talk) 05:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
None of our sources call it a coup or coup attempt so I've removed references to that for now. — Czello08:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Another of a burning Wagner technical pickup truck and claims that there is an unknown truck burning as well but not shown in the photo 76.132.246.141 (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
More Contextualization Is Needed: Events Predating June 23
We're forgetting the larger context to this: on June 10, all mercenary groups were ordered by Shoigu to register with the Russian military by the end of June. The Wagner group refused that order on June 11, which clearly set the stage for the trainwreck to come. Though the claimed attack on the Wagner group, that set off this rebellion, hasn't (yet) been decisively confirmed, it's clear from context that the action would have been the "or else" part of Shoigu's order, and is clearly motivated by that rationale, and should be understood as such in that larger context. At the very least, the earlier events should be listed as "precursors" to the revolt, since the conflict entailed by the June 10 declaration and June 11 response set the stage for what was to come.
PMC Wagner is the official name of the group and is also easier to type, but their are multiple instances on Misplaced Pages where the unofficial name is used. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
In the article prose we should just say "Wagner", which is what the sources typically use, not "Wagner Group" or "PMC Wagner" or "Wagner PMC". Saying simply Wagner is the most natural.—Alalch E.12:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the area controlled by the Wagner Group is that large.
I have seen many videos about Wagner Group mutiny on telegram and twitter and I think it is too early to say that wagner has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast because so far there is little video evidence to support that wagner group has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast. so in my opinion at the moment wagner grub only controls the city of Rostov-on-Don and the surrounding satellite cities. Bukansatya (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Images
It would be nice if images of Wagner forces in the streets or any of the reported fighting can be added --Nilsol2 (talk) 08:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Nilsol2 All of the Misplaced Pages images have to be copyright free, and right now almost all of the footage from Rostov is copyrighted by news agencies or their private owners. The only way to submit a image in this article is to manually add it by an owner of one. Kuraczan (talk) 09:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This morning. Putin released an address to the nation regarding the "armed rebellion" in Russia. This is not only a primary source, but the address will probably be a definitive video in russian history.
However, it is basically propaganda... Bigfatman8766 (talk) 09:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Civil wars often consist of multiple groups fighting multiple groups, The last russian civil war was a hot mess of reds vs whites vs seperatists, and these sides weren't united in one single group. Right now this is Wagner vs Russia, and I would also say the situation is not large enough to call a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 10:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
In good-faith, Your understanding of what defines a "civil war" is flawed, the American Civil War by your standards (a war between the two sides of Union and Confederate) would not be a civil war. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 08:57, 24 June 2023 (EST)
It is still too early to say that this mutiny is a civil war. If it takes longer, yes, it's civil war. Of course, provided that it is widespread, like the civil wars of the American and Libya. Parham wiki (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I think if any other factions join Wagner, including Russian military units, then it would at that point be Russian military vs Russian military and be a civil war. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It might not be considered a civil war due to potentially not meeting the scale, intensity, duration, and casualty thresholds often used to define such conflicts.
However, these classifications be somewhat subjective and can vary depending on the specific definitions used.
If the conflict is not resolved within a short to medium long period (1 to 6 months) without major changes to the national leadership, I would call it a civil war. MathiasL05 (talk) 13:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Very recently, another major partisan group in Russia, known as the Combat Organization of Anarcho-Communists, or BOAK for short, have made a response to the conflict on their telegram (https://t.me/BO_AK_reborn/2416). Going on to say "Neither the Putin regime nor Prigozhinsky are our friends. In this fight between two cannibals, anarchists should stay on the sidelines - let them bleed each other as much as possible. So they will not be able to interfere with people in the future." Considering they have played an important role in the partisan movement of Russia and the wider Russian Opposition. I feel it vital to add this to the list of responses to the conflict. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 06:14, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Then add them once their claims are covered by a secondary source. Telegram reports from groups themselves mustn't be used. SuperΨDro10:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Okay, if that is the case, then why are the statements by other prominent partisan groups like the Russian Volunteer Corps allowed to stay when their citation is directly from their own telegram as well? Either both responses can stay or neither can until we get better reporting, otherwise, it's just a double standard. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Well in that case, as much as direct citations are frowned upon, considering other partisan factions' telegrams were allowed to be cited yet not BOAK's response, either both responses should be allowed in the Russian opposition section until we get some secondary sources, or both responses should remain off the page for the time being. Since doing otherwise would just be picking and choosing one faction over another. Considering the blatant double standard, I would have added BOAK's response personally just to be consistent, but because of extended-protections, I do not have access to do that. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 08:50, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Update, good to see that other partisan factions are getting proper sources, as for BOAK, I have found a secondary source that directly quotes the response from BOAK in a proper English translation. https://crimethinc.com/2023/06/24/russian-anarchists-on-the-wagner-mutiny-combat-organization-of-anarcho-communists-and-movement-of-irkutsk-anarchists"But one thing is clear. First, the moment of direct armed confrontation is nearer than ever before. Second, neither the Putin regime nor Prigozhinsky are our friends. In this fight between two cannibals, anarchists should stay away—let them bleed each other as much as possible. That way, they won’t be able to disturb people in the future." While I cannot add this citation in the article myself, considering BOAK is a major faction within the Russian opposition, I strongly recommend someone add this to the opposition responses section I mentioned prior. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 09:17, 24 June 2023 (EST)
What is the source for this map? It seems like a rough edit from a youtube mapping channel. I don't think we should use it until we have more defnitive information about who controls what Genabab (talk) 10:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We know that Wagner control Rostov & Voronezh as well as the fact that they are moving along the M-4 highway. @Noorullah21's map is probably the most accurate one we'll get. IX1922 (talk) 10:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I have also been seeing reports of them controlling small settlements in the regions such a Millerovo on my Twitter feed. It's unclear where they hold, but its obviously not limited just to the roads. A dashed line of the oblasts could be used to indicated disputed control. Ecrusized (talk) 10:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Ecrusized I was also planning this, another key could be added for regions where control is unclear, possibly a grey-ish colour, maybe white, or something of the sort. Noorullah (talk) 10:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
You need to change it so it reflects whichever highway they are using, they obviously do not 'own' the large swaths of land you have painted in the map and this will confuse people Tweedle (talk) 11:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Unconfirmed. Wagner has been painting red Zs on their vehicles, so it isn't clear if that video is of the Wagner Group or The Russian Ministry of Defense.
Are we good to just remove the current one as of now? This is giving me flashbacks to the awful Telegram maps when the invasion began back in February.
None of the current land which is 'claimed' they obviously own, there are like 5 columns travelling up a highway to Moscow this is not some sort of large scale military revolt that's sweeped across Russia that the map is implying to the average reader (intended or not) Tweedle (talk) 12:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Yes, map is not needed here. They have taken control of Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh and are heading up the M4 highway. They are not capturing swaths of land. Mellk (talk) 13:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We formerly use File:Wagner Revolt map.svg in the infobox, then a user changed the image to a new color scheme (blue and red) for better accessiblilty. However the map was lately changed to File:Wagner Group Mutiny.svg that use the old color scheme (blue and green), which made the previous work useless. I think we need a clear consensus on which map to use. BlackShadowG (talk) 11:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
What map is being used?
There are currently 1... 2... 3... 9 maps on Wikimedia Commons for the Wagner mutiny already, most just rough duplicates of one another. Only a single map is needed- which one should it be, and how should it be made? I was thinking it should be made in the style of the map for the Belgorod incursions and the invasion of Ukraine as a whole, rather than something out of a "2023 Wagner Rebellion- Every Day" youtube video Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The two of the current maps which were on rotation should not be used anyway, the first one being of which like you said looks like out of a shoddy YouTube video and the second showing large swaths of land claimed looks like a poor Telegram esque map used back at the start of the invasion (even though they control none of that and are just travelling up a highway to Moscow). However I myself I am not the person to make this. Somebody more specialised should show at-least the highway they are going travelling along, there was a better map which was a .png a little while up by @CactusCartocratushere. It does not have any sources attached however but maybe something like that can be reworked? Tweedle (talk) 12:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, that one is definitely nice, better than any other one used. But if possible I think it should be derived directly from Russia's locator map, as other war maps have been, rather than just being a PNG file with Wagner control drawn over. But such a map would take time and I don't know how to make them so CactusCartocratus' map could be used until then Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)it'd be preferable for a map to be derived out of this base map
Ok the very nice map has now appeared with the cities and roads and colors like in other war maps, so I think we should start using it.
Just 2 problems with it I see - it should show the disputed territories like the blank above it, and also Taganrog is not shown and it should be under govt control as the Kadyrovites are approaching from there. CactusCartocratus (talk) 13:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
One problem I see with this map is bad contrast between Wagner controlled territory (grey) and surrounding countries (also grey). Maybe the color of the Wagner area should be changed to make it easier to see?
There's an issue with the recently deployed map; Wagner is shown in a dark dull color, on a map so big, you can barely see their advances. We should probably do some cropping or something to remedy this. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 14:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Well we can just crop it in the page itself like the maps of the Ukrainian counteroffensive are just the main map cropped to a specific area but still the same file.
President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine in a tweet on the 24th of June: "Everyone who chooses the path of evil destroys himself. Who sends columns of troops to destroy the lives of another country and cannot stop them from fleeing and betraying when life resists. Who terrorizes with missiles, and when they are shot down, humiliates himself to receive Shahed drones. Who despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war, in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow region from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares by the year 1917, although he is able to result in nothing else but this. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness. And the longer Russia keeps its troops and mercenaries on our land, the more chaos, pain, and problems it will have for itself later. It is also obvious. Ukraine is able to protect Europe from the spread of Russian evil and chaos. We keep our resilience, unity and strength. All our commanders, all our soldiers know what to do. Glory to Ukraine!"
Was removed from international reactions because it was too lengthy, but might be valuable nonetheless considering the Russo-Ukrainian conflict. Chesteroy (talk) 11:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Flemish public VRT uses following header on 12:49 GMT:"Mercenary army Wagner occupies Russian city Rostov-on-Don en advances to Moscow, Putin states (rebellion or revolt) is a 'dagger in the back'", see: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/06/24/liveblog-wagner/
Add in section Reactions in sub-heading 1 International under inscription Ukraine ,,President of UkraineVolodymyr Zelenskyy posted on Telegram on 24 June 2023 ,,He terrorizes with rockets, and when they are shot down, he humiliates himself to give "Shaheda". He despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war - in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow Oblast from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares the year 1917, although he is not able to lead to anything else. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness..'' referring to the conflict between the recent allies of the Russian forces and the Wagner Group.'' - Duosdebs01 (talk) 11:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
> Yevgeny Prigozhin was formerly sometimes described as a confidant of Russian president Vladimir Putin and was his personal chef.
This phrase is clearly some kind of nonsense. What kind of chef when by the 2000s he was an accomplished businessman? What? Personal chef? That's his nickname not his job Gamma1138 (talk) 12:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Donetsk
Roads into Russian-controlled Donetsk blocked: Al Jazeera reporter
Al Jazeera’s Ali Hashem reporting from Russian-occupied Donetsk says the situation in the city is fluid.
“The Wagner Group marched into the city and took control of the central command centre and now we are hearing that they are besieging most of the government buildings there,” Hashem said.
“All roads to and from Donetsk are blocked and fighters from Wagner are on the streets of the city,” he said.
“There were some attempts by a few people to kind of protest but there was a crackdown on them.”
The leader of the Wagner Group has asserted that the entire force had organized itself as "the patriots" (Ru: патриоты) against the FSB and other authorities, labeling Putin and senior figures under the leader as "the bastards" (Ru: подонков). Or that's what I understand. I don't speak Russian. Is there anything about the commentary here that perhaps an English language reader might miss? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Write: "Some Russian and Western observers believe that the organization does not actually exist as a private military company but is in reality a disguised branch of the Russian MoD that ultimately reports to the Russian government. The company shares bases with the Russian military, is transported by Russian military aircraft, and uses Russia's military health care services. The Russian state is also documented supporting the Wagner Group with passports." Parham wiki (talk) 16:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Should DNR and LNR be in the "Domestic" response section? Eventually the section may be made into its own article if it grows too large. WMrapids (talk) 14:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Not done This is an article about the Wagner Group rebellion, not the Russo-Ukrainian war. The map should only show the Wagner Group's territory in Russia, not the Russian occupation in Ukraine. 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 14:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Still eyewitnesses accounts so not much. But heard on Twitter Spaces that the Russian police confirmed Wagner forces in the oblast, trying to find a direct quote from them. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
If you have to add the comment regarding pinches of salt, it is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Kindly stop trying to add misinformation to the article. Kremshin (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Not saying these sources should be added, sorry if I wasn't clear. My point is it's something to look into for better sources, if there are some, that could then be added. If the Russian police did in fact confirm Wagner presence, that could be addded. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Twitter is not a reliable source. WP:RSTWITTER. The nature of Misplaced Pages is we should be one of the slowest to report on things (because we are summarizing reliable secondary sources such as reputable WP:NEWSORGs), but also the most accurate. There is no rush. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Kremshin Russian Armed Forces wikipedia page states there are 1,5 million active personnel and 2 million reserves, i dont think this army only having 200 men on lines is a plausible claim. i think there should be added "*(exact numbers unknown)*" text next to the confirmed information. Cactus Ronin (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Most of those 1.5 million are not combatants. Almost all combatants are in Ukraine or on other Russian borders. That means they aren't in defensive positions. I find the 200 number pretty plausible, honestly. Fieari (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Cactus Ronin This is an estimate from Meduza; would "200+" be a better way to write it? It seems like the rest of this conversation that were focusing more on the figure in complete disregard that this is only an estimate of how many Kadyrovites were deployed (nothing more, nothing less). If you have a sourced estimate for the MoD and National Guard forces deployed to handle the mutiny, you are free to add it. NAADAAN (talk) 16:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Only the number of Kadyrovites. May take some time until any sources are found about the number of members in the AFR and others participating in this. Deus vult fratres! (talk) 16:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wouldn't then it be better to add in something along the lines of "Unknown number of other Russian armed personnel" until some actual numbers are found? 82.160.125.101 (talk) 17:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Best source for 'Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president' quote?
I'd really like to add Prigozhin's response to Putin's speech, namely, "Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president" as being very relevant to the article. It was posted on his official telegram, but that's a primary source. A number of secondary sources have ALSO reported on it, but I'm not sure which would be the best... I'd prefer one of the big world media companies like the BBC, but the secondary sources that have reported on this are... not good. Business Today, News 18, Newsweek, all blacklisted by wikipedia, for good reason. Anyone have a better secondary source? Or would this be a good place to just use the primary source? Or does the fact that BBC hasn't reported this quote really mean that it's not inclusion-worthy? Fieari (talk) 15:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Primary would be fine because its directly related to the event and its by one of the main participants, not some off tangent thing unrelated, although normally its nice to accompany such stuff with secondary sources. Tweedle (talk) 15:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Request of the following information to be added
1. The reaction of Finland regarding the subject; Petteri Orpo, the prime minister of Finland has been in contact with Kaja Kallas (PM of Estonia) and Krišjānis Kariņsi (PM of Latvia) in regards of the group rebellion. Finland is closely cooperating with Estonia and Latvia. Orpo's tweet
2. More info regarding the reaction of the chechens regarding the subject - the chechen leader also stated the following: “The ]
Currently, the infobox lists the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment as being on the side of PMC Wagner, as per a Socportal source. According to a Tweet, this happened over 2 hours ago. If this were true, it would be pretty difficult to cover up, so there should be other sources as well. There aren't. I have a suspicion Socportal is not a reliable source. Dieknon (talk) 16:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
That is exactly what Socportal is, a registered media company in Ukraine that publishes in Russian, Ukrainian English and German. I'm not sure why people are saying they fail WP:RS. they have proper legal standing as a media company, have reporters, a functioning editorial board, and all the other qualifiers to be a RS. Scu ba (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Scu ba This is a case where WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies. A regiment of the Russian armed forces defecting and joining Wagner would be a major development that you would expect to end up on every news site in existence, but the only place that this is mentioned is a Socportal piece? Looking at the Socportal website brings up several red flags to me, everything from the .info url to the fact they have 500 followers on twitter to the NGO that claims to own them having no internet presence all paint a picture of a small/amateur operation. This is a case where we should wait for major mainstream sources. 192.76.8.66 (talk) 17:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Now that the situation is over and nobody else talked about the 217th, this was the right call. Socportal was just disseminating twitter and telegram feeds for geolocated videos and repeated statements from trusted actors to update the situation and then turning them into somewhat coherent articles. They where bound to have gotten something wrong eventually. Scu ba (talk) 21:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I see the Socportal has been removed from the sources list. Could we perhaps fix the infobox too? The claim that the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment is on PMC Wagner's side is unsourced. Dieknon (talk) 16:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
"Latvia is closely following the developing situation in Russia and exchanging information with allies Border security has been strengthened, visa or border entry from Russians leaving Russia due to current events won’t be considered" LatviaRich (talk) 16:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
In regards to potential and relevant additions, I believe there is a fairly sizable number of Belarusian Opposition groups that have responded to the Wagnar revolts, yet have not been taken note of on this page, in spite of them having serious relevance for Belarus and by extent, Russia. For one instance, we can cite the Belarusian Opposition and anarchist group Autonomous Action, as cited here: https://crimethinc.com/2023/06/24/russian-anarchists-on-the-wagner-mutiny-combat-organization-of-anarcho-communists-and-movement-of-irkutsk-anarchists going on to say "Prigozhin is no better than Putin: now some fascists are fighting against others. Any authoritarian power eventually gives rise to bloody conflicts (...) there is no “our side” in the clash between the “Wagnerites” and the “official” state structures. In the ongoing squabble, all of them pursue only their own interests and will only defend themselves. It is better for all other people not to risk themselves in someone else’s struggle and, if possible, stay away from collision points." I also think there are also a few other major Belarusian opposition groups that have made responses too but I do not have citations for them as of now, so others input is welcome. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Crimea
I saw a statement from Russian-installed Crimean leader supporting Putin but I couldn't recall the url and I'm trying to find a decent article that is not a live blog. Borgenland (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
"The office of Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko just announced that Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin accepted a proposal to “stop the movement of armed persons of the Wagner company on the territory of Russia and take further steps to de-escalate tensions,” the president’s office said, with similar reporting in Russian news outlets.
The statement said that Vladimir Putin briefed Lukashenko in the morning and, with his approval, Lukashenko held negotiating talks with Prigozhin.
“Negotiations continued throughout the day. As a result, they came to agreements on the inadmissibility of unleashing a bloody massacre on the territory of Russia,” the statement read.
Wagner nor Prigozhin has not commented on the negotiations."
Rebellion still ongoing, article should not be in past tense.
For all we know, while Wagner forces are turning back, there is still an active rebellion going on. One of the largest cities in Russia, Rostov, is currently occupied by a force defying authority from the central government. Until further information is given, this is still ongoing. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Yep. I don't mean to speculate, but as an example the occupied regions of Russia may be held hostage in some way by the Wagner Group in exchange for demands. Whatever the case, it is clear that while an attack on Moscow has been averted, the rebellion is still going on. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
You said it better than I could. I agree in full. The rebellion ending is not verified, per, again, NYT, on the front page: "Yevgeny Prigozhin said his forces were turning around after they were believed to be on their way to Moscow. His claim could not yet be verified." — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 18:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Could prigozhen be dead?
Seems likely, lukashenko announces it meanwhile he was so close to moscow
As well as he has been silent, also he didn't mind shooting down helicopters, why would he suddenly care about "bloodshed" when he got thousands killed on both sides in Ukraine.
Seems veey fishy to me. THEREALhistoryandgames (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
No worries, I made the same mistake too when I first started using Misplaced Pages. You can use this page to suggest anything you think will improve the quality of the article! PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The current "reactions" section is a simple list without regard for weight. A common trend around WP:RECENCY is to try to include everything that is being said by anyone about a certain topic. Instead, try to create a WP:PROSE description that summarizes the main points with regard for what ideas are WP:DUE. An encyclopedic summary of the types of reactions is far more valuable than a list of quotes. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@RealHavaspierre, while Wagner has backed down from attacking Moscow, they are still holding many Russian cities, like Rostov.
I don't mean to speculate, but this is just an example of what the situation could be: The march on Moscow may have been to pressurize the government to respond, and now they may be trying to use the occupied territories almost as hostage to gain concessions from the Russian government.
Now, this is just one scenario, and I am in no way saying this will happen or that I think this will happen, the point is that this is a possibility, and an example of why we shouldn't be too hasty to say "it's over". There are still many questions that need to be answered. Until we get further information, it's best to keep it as ongoing while large parts of Russia remain occupied by a force actively defying the central government. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 19:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
"Many Russian cities"? "Large parts of Russia"? Russia is the largest country in the world. Not only it's false what I am reading here, it's original research too. emijrp (talk) 19:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Rostov is a city of 1.1 million people. Voronezh is a city of 1 million. 2 and a half to 3 million people under a rebelling army is what I would consider "large". PrecariousWorlds (talk) 20:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (10)
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Please, add hyperlink on Unit 684. This Korean penalty squad similar on part Wagner Group, which detachment on prisoners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.90.100.107 (talk) 19:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In the section Rise in influence write: "Some Russian and Western observers believe that the organization does not actually exist as a private military company but is in reality a disguised branch of the Russian MoD that ultimately reports to the Russian government. The company shares bases with the Russian military, is transported by Russian military aircraft, and uses Russia's military health care services. The Russian state is also documented supporting the Wagner Group with passports." Parham wiki (talk) 19:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
there is no general primary sources ban, even tho some people might think so. and for a quote of a reaction i's perfectly accaptable by wikipedia rules to use a primary source. it would be simply idiotic to not cover it here just because a aecondary source wasn't referenced Norschweden (talk) 22:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Information about hostages among relatives of the Wagner Groups soldiers
I Google-Translated the articles you linked, and she doesn't really say that? The most similar thing is in the NG source, where she says something along the lines of: "Relatives of prisoners received messages from the FSB, requesting their personal data for the military registration and enlistment offices(?). They don't tell the relatives why this is happening, but, apparently, we're talking about hostages." I did what I could to decipher the roughly translated version, but at most it seems like she's saying that it's just vague threats from the FSB - not, as the wikitext implied, "the FSB is literally taking hostages".
Can any Russian speakers translate this better? I'm really not confident in my rough translation, so there is probably something I'm missing.
@K8M8S8 To answer your question, I think we could add the passage back if we just stick closer to what the source says - that Olga Romanova accused the FSB of threatening relatives of Wagner convicts. More info might come out later, and then we could say more. HappyWith (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Alleged threat to make nuclear strike on advancing columns of Wagner Group
I suggest thinking about the inclusion of the following sentence:
"Furthermore, there is reason to believe that during the negotiations Alexander Lukashenko issued a threat to make a strike with a tactical nuclear weapon at advancing columns of the Wagner Group; earlier Yevgeny Prigozhin stated that a possibility of nuclear strike on Russian territory was seriously considered by the top leadership of the Russian Federation."
Yes, I understand that it seems like original research, but it explains the maneuvers of the Doomsday plane (Russia) that day. Anyway the Prigozhin's statement on the Kremlin thoughts about a nuclear strike on Russian territory in order to beat your own in order to intimidate foreigners is confirmed by the sources, and you can easily find relevant video message of Prigozhin. The remarkable fact is that Prigozhin is strictly opposed to any usage of the nuclear weapon and believe that only conventional weapon is acceptable to usage. I think it can be used in the article. K8M8S8 (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Nythar I agree with this assessment, considering the fact that Prigozhin managed to gain concessions from the Russian government for his actions, especially also considering that the usual punishment for open rebellion is death, I would hardly consider this a "failure". MandaloretheUnknowing (talk) 20:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The entire article explains why this is a failed rebellion. The Wagner Group leader is about to become a political exile in Belarus and his paramilitary group will be dismantled. Aarfrunzindin (talk) 21:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The entire article doesn't say this was a failed rebellion. You also haven't provided a reliable source. Our assessments of the current situation can't be used in the article. Nythar (💬-🍀) 21:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Besides the Daily Mail which doesn't count for Misplaced Pages's politburo, international relations scholars and geopolitics experts were talking about the Wagner rebellion failure on news channels at the time of my edit. The rebellion leader was forced to go into exile, Wagner battalions will disband and you call it a successful rebellion. We can only see opinions like these here in Misplaced Pages. Aarfrunzindin (talk) 23:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Storm z logo
I noticed there was no logo for storm z i found this logo on the russian article File:Группа "Шторм-Z".jpg I would add it myself but i am not a auto confirmed user AvailableViking (talk) 21:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023
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Not done for now please provide verbatim requested changes. Iseultparlez moi 15:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Not done This is an article about the Wagner Group rebellion, not the Russo-Ukrainian war. The map should only show the Wagner Group's territory in Russia, not the Russian occupation in Ukraine. 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 14:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Done for the international reactions section. — Ætoms 21:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Not done: according to Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms, the acronyms COBR and COBRA are both commonly used. Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)