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This sentence is worded in a very misleadingly general way. Obviously, there is still an existing Armenian civilization (there is a country called Armenia!) Perhaps it should be qualified with more words at the end. For example: "This genocide put an end to more than two thousand years of Armenian civilization in what is now Turkey." (?) Jplennon (talk) 14:12, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

It should, and used to, say "in eastern Anatolia", as there is indeed an Armenian presence in the capital but Armenians were prevented from organizing as a community in the rest of Turkey, as explained in Suciyan's book. Now fixed. (t · c) buidhe 17:07, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

There was no such a thing as "eastern Anatolia" throughout more than two thousand years of Armenian civilization. What?? I’ve lost count how many times it was suggested here that "eastern Anatolia" is a relatively recent Turkish toponymic invention, essentially a tautology translated from Greek as "Eastern East", to replace the geographically and historically correct term "Armenian Plateau" or "Armenian Highlands", the indigenous place of habitat of the Armenians. I personally offered a more neutral toponym, very often used in RSs, "Eastern Asia Minor" or "Western Asia". Editors, you're supposed to be unbiased. Why do you keep this cooked-up joke "eastern Anatolia" in the text?73.173.64.115 (talk) 01:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

Please see the Archives in this talk for tons of RSs using "Eastern Asia Minor" as the Armenians' historical place of habitat. Can anyone here explain why one toponym, "eastern Anatolia" used in a number of RSs, is given preference over another toponym, "eastern Asia Minor" used extensively in other RSs? Which Misplaced Pages policy gives editors the right to cherry-pick one term to the detriment of the other? Please refer your contributors and readers to that particular policy. Thank you.73.173.64.115 (talk) 19:39, 9 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

I'm not sure where this idea that "eastern Anatolia" is a recent invention comes from. Read the sources from that period, including the Ottoman Armenian ones, and you'll see that it was interchangeably used as much as "Armenia," "Turkish Armenia," etc. In fact, it's rare to come across Ottoman Armenian sources referring to the region as the Armenian Plateau or Highlands (funnily enough, those are terms that originated in academia in the later 20th century, and even then to use it for the ancient and Bronze Age periods). Just because Anatolia means "east" in Greek doesn't mean this broad geographic region didn't have its constituent western, northern, and eastern ends. Note this is eastern with lowercase "e," not uppercase, which is indeed a modern invention by the Turkish state. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that “eastern Anatolia” is a relatively recent invention comes from the Ottoman own maps and historiography, in which the term “Anatolia” until the late nineteenth century was used to indicate a territory of the empire which was situated in the western part of the Peninsula of Asia Minor. The approximate borders of Anatolia extended from Alexandretta, today’s Turkified İskenderun, and extending north-eastward through Marash, Malatia, Yerznka (Erzinjan), and Baiburt to the Black Sea coast. The remaining territory was never Anatolia; most of it was geographically and historically known as Armenian highlands or “Armenian Plateau”. Prior to the Turkification laws adopted by the Republic of Turkey at the end of 1920s, the term “Anatolia” referred to the territory to the west of the Armenian Highlands, which consists of around 60 per cent of modern-day Turkey. After Turkification, to answer your question where “this idea” that eastern Anatolia is a recent invention comes from, the remaining territory lying to the east of Anatolia was designated as “eastern Anatolia”, a never-before existed geographical toponym. Go read Misplaced Pages’s own article Place name changes in Turkey and familiarize yourself with Ottoman own maps on which eastern parts of modern-day Turkey were shown as Ermenistan (Armenia), here https://www.armgeo.am/en/anatolia/. Oh, and I forgot, next time please don’t tell a historian of late Ottoman period to “read the sources from that period”, okay? Thank you. And also, since you're not a professional in the field, please enrich your knowledge on the toponyms "Armenian Plateau" or "Armenian Highlands" by reading Robert Hewsen's "Armenia: A Historical Atlas" https://www.amazon.com/Armenia-Historical-Robert-H-Hewsen/dp/0226332284 from which you'd be surprised to know that these terms have not "originated in academia in the later 20th century" (?!). This said, may I remind that I personally offered “eastern Asia Minor”, a neutral term which is extensively used in RSs (please see Archives on this talk page for references to these many RSs). So I’m afraid I may need to repeat my question to which I received no answer. Which particular Misplaced Pages policy gives editors the right to cherry-pick one term used in a number of RSs to the detriment of the other term similarly extensively used in the RSs? Please refer us to that policy. Thank you.73.173.64.115 (talk) 14:00, 10 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

While it's certainly the case that this region was commonly called "Armenia" or "Ottoman Armenia" at the time, modern day reliable sources don't usually use this language as it is confusing to readers now that Armenia is an independent country. (t · c) buidhe 23:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

This is a very lame counterargument. And the reasons why it is lame, to put it mildly, are that: (1) if you admit the region was called “Armenia” or “Ottoman Armenia” at the time, then it must appear under that particular name in the text because the topic of the article that you had so clumsily drafted, and I’m sorry to have to say this, pertains to the period when the region was called “Armenia” or “Ottoman Armenia”, and not “eastern Anatolia”; (2) you chose to disregard many other modern-day reliable sources that I and others had brought forward, in which the region figures as “eastern Asia Minor”, neglecting these sources to the extent that there is no single mention of this term as an equally extensively used toponym to denominate the area (again, please take pains to re-visit the Archives on this talk page for dozens of such RSs); and (3) only one-fourth of what has once been historic Armenia is now the independent country of Armenia, but if you truly wished to highlight a distinction between the modern country and Armenia as a toponym designating the pre-genocide region, well, you know, there is this simple way of doing it: just put “the Republic of Armenia”, and your readers will perfectly understand that this name refers to the independent country. Besides, what does the name of modern independent country have to do with the article on the Armenian Genocide? But my question, and I’m sorry to have to repeat it for the third time, was not about “Armenia” or “Ottoman Armenia” or “Armenian Highlands”. My question was about the term “eastern Asia Minor” which, as you must know, figures equally extensively in modern-day reliable sources. If you know there is this alternative term used as frequently as “eastern Anatolia”, why is it that only “eastern Anatolia” figures across the text? Why isn’t “eastern Asia Minor” mentioned as an alternative name or used interchangeably in the text? Aren’t you guys supposed to be neutral? Where is your neutrality?73.173.64.115 (talk) 00:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

I’m sorry. I didn’t hear back, so I have to repeat for the fourth time. And, of course, the purpose of repetition is not to suggest in any way that Misplaced Pages editors have difficulty understanding simple things. It is that for the fourth time no one cares to direct contributors and readers to a particular policy in this inimitable “free” online encyclopedia, which gives editors the right to select one particular term used in a number of RSs to the detriment of the other term similarly extensively figuring in the RSs. In particular, the toponym “eastern Asia Minor” is used extensively in the RSs to denominate the place of habitat of Western (Ottoman) Armenians (again, please see Archives for several dozen extracts from RSs to that regard). And the relatively new toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia” is equally extensively used in the RSs to denominate the area. I’m just trying to get an idea which Misplaced Pages policy allows the editors to make a selection in favor of one term to the detriment of the other? And if no such policy exists (I couldn’t find it, but you all are professionals in the field, aren’t you?), then I guess my follow-up question is: isn’t this a sheer violation of Misplaced Pages:NPOV by Misplaced Pages’s own editors?73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

The main area where millennia of Armenia culture was wiped out by genocide is exactly Eastern Anatolia Region plus some other places of Armenian settlement. It doesn't matter that the toponym is relatively recent. Binksternet (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Friend, you're not answering the question. Did you read the question? Specially for you, for the fifth time. Sorry. Which Misplaced Pages policy gives the editors the right to cherry-pick one widely used term to the detriment of the other widely used term? And, for the purpose of enriching your knowledge, please be aware that there was no such thing as "Eastern Anatolia Region" throughout millennia of Armenians' presence in their place of habitat. The place was called EXACTLY the Armenian highlands or Armenian Plateau or Ermenistan on Turkey's own maps. And since you took pains to redirect me to Eastern Anatolia Region, do please have a quick look at what the very first sentence in this article Anatolia states. Do you see what the sentence reads? It reads: "Anatolia, also known as Asia Minor". So I guess my question is, again, how come one Misplaced Pages article provides an alternative name for Anatolia, but you folks here stubbornly refuse any of the alternative, and much older and more authentic, names for Eastern Anatolia, such as, for example, Eastern Asia Minor? Curious to know.73.173.64.115 (talk) 23:32, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

Besides, since when another Misplaced Pages article is considered an RS so you redirect me to it and state cocksurely that it was "exactly" Eastern Anatolia Region where the millennia of Armenians' presence was wiped out? Very unprofessional, I'm sorry to say.73.173.64.115 (talk) 00:08, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

And since you brought up this article Eastern Anatolia Region here, did you read this sentence in the introductory section: "The region encompasses most of Western Armenia (Armenian: Արեւմտյան Հայաստան) and had a large population of indigenous Armenians until the Armenian genocide". Did you? How about this section "Substitution for the name Armenia" in the same article? Did you take heed of it? What conclusion can you make out of it?73.173.64.115 (talk) 01:07, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

The Armenian Plateau and the Armenian Highlands are larger geological areas than Turkey's Eastern Anatolia Region, and they still contain pockets of Armenian civilization outside of Turkey. So the sentence is still essentially correct, that the Armenian genocide ended Armenian civilization inside Turkey, mainly in this one region of Turkey. Your style of discussion here is combative; you might be better served if you propose simple things, for instance that Text A should be replaced by Text B. Better yet, you could register yourself a username and start earning enough experience points to edit the article directly. Or were you blocked in the past for doing this? Binksternet (talk) 08:08, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Your reply demonstrates how careless and inattentive you are towards your contributors’ suggestions. Long before you popped up in this talk, I already proposed to replace Text A: “Eastern Anatolia” by Text B: “Eastern Asia Minor”. Or at least use both terms interchangeably in the text because both are equally extensively used in RSs. Or you were asleep in the past not noticing this? So careless you are that you bring up the "Armenian Plateau" and the "Armenian Highlands", a term I’ve never proposed. And please show me a word or a clause or a passage in my remarks above that remotely suggest that my “style” is combative. If you fail to do so, you wouldn't wish to be called a liar, would you?73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:10, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

The introductory section of this unrivalled article, in para. 3, states that “massacres and ethnic cleansing of Armenian survivors were continued out by the Turkish nationalist movement during the Turkish War of Independence after World War I”. Yet the date in the infobox right next to this section states that the genocide lasted from 1915 to 1917. Please help your contributors and readers understand: if massacres and ethnic cleansing continued during the Turkish War of Independence (1919-1923) after World War I (after 1918), what pocket calculator did the authors of this article use that produced these discrepancies in dates so we don’t buy that particular brand for our home and office use? Thank you.73.173.64.115 (talk) 23:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

There is no simple answer. The Armenian genocide happened in the mid-1890s, 1909 and 1914, then there were specific government orders in 1915 and 1916 which extended through 1917. More genocide was carried out through 1929. The heaviest years of official Turkish government action were 1915–1917. So the listing is not wrong. Binksternet (talk) 23:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, please try hard to avoid making yourself a laughingstock. The Armenian Genocide did not happen during the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896 or in Adana in 1909 or, what??, in 1914. Most genocide scholars and historians of the late Ottoman period admit that these acts of mass violence were not part of the genocide (a few experts disagree, but they are in minority). I have no clue where “more genocide was carried out through 1929” popped out from. By 1923, most pockets of the remaining Armenians were eradicated. If you think that the heaviest (?!) years of official Turkish government action (?!) were 1915-1917, it is your personal problem. Dozens of RSs have been provided here to demonstrate that a large cohort of scholars consider that the genocide lasted well into 1918 and until 1923.73.173.64.115 (talk) 00:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

The majority of RS acknowledge that ethnic cleansing also occurred during the TWOI, but don't count it as part of the Armenian genocide. Ditto for the Hamidian massacres which according to many historians had other motivations that distinguish them from genocide. (t · c) buidhe 23:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The TWOI started in 1919 and ended in 1923. But the date in the infobox limits the period of genocidal atrocities to 1917. So, I guess, based on your logic, in 1918 Turks, what, took a break from killing, gang-raping, hanging, burning and burying Armenians alive? If there was a continuation of atrocity, whether or not it is “counted” as part of the Armenian Genocide, then the date in infobox must state this unequivocally. As for “the majority of RS”, lol. The majority of RS acknowledge the number of mass murdered Armenians as being 1.5 million. Should I remind you what rounded figure was cooked up in the lede sentence of this article or you'll have mercy on me?73.173.64.115 (talk) 00:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

And I’m still waiting, patiently and for all other editors here to see, to be redirected to a Misplaced Pages policy where it is stated firmly and unequivocally that, in the case where there are two or more equally extensively used terms or toponyms in the RSs, you editors have the right to make a selection in favor of one term to the detriment of the other. This will be the FIFTH time I’m asking this simple question.73.173.64.115 (talk) 00:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

The applicable page is WP:SEALION. 71.238.71.105 (talk) 17:57, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

See WP:CONSENSUS. If this bothers you, please feel free to spend your time elsewhere.  // Timothy :: talk  18:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I hereby solemnly and simply propose to (a) either replace a relatively recently cooked up toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia” with a more geographically and historically correct and more neutral term “eastern Asia Minor” or (b) indicate that “eastern Anatolia” is also known as “eastern Asia Minor” and use both terms interchangeably in the text of this unrivalled article. This proposal is based on the fact that much larger number of Reliable Sources (please visit Archives in this talk) refer to the area where the bulk of the Armenian Genocide had been perpetrated, using names other than “eastern Anatolia”, such as, for example, “Ottoman Armenia”, “Turkish Armenia”, “Western Armenia”, “eastern Asia Minor”, “Western Asia”, etc. I personally proposed but have to repeat especially for those editors who have eyes but don't see, to use “eastern Asia Minor”. Please visit Misplaced Pages’s own article Anatolia, where an equally extensively used alternative term “Asia Minor” is mentioned.73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:52, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

To bring the following text in the introductory section: “Massacres and ethnic cleansing of Armenian survivors continued through the Turkish War of Independence after World War I, carried out by Turkish nationalists” to conformity with the partially indicated date in infobox: 1915-1917, I hereby simply propose to make the following clarifying addition in infobox. "Date 1915-1917, continuing well into 1918 and even into 1923". I stand ready to provide scores of RSs supporting this addition.73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

Ok, let's try this. Provide some of the RS but without sources we can't change it. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

The suggested wording is self contradictory. (t · c) buidhe 21:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Self-contradictory is the wording in the following sentence that, I trust, you might have composed? “This genocide put an end to more than two thousand years of Armenian civilization in eastern Anatolia.” Well, no matter how hard I try, I cannot imagine, based on my heavy readings into the subject of my professional interest and occupation, that throughout the more than two thousand years of Armenian civilization there has ever been (until the late 1920s) such a thing as “eastern Anatolia”.73.173.64.115 (talk) 14:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

If there’s a will to improve this article, the wording can always be modified. But, I’m sorry to say, so far you’ve shown no will whatsoever to make alterations to your poorly drafted text, despite the fact that tons of RSs had been presented especially for such despicable text fragments as your voluntary rounding-up of the number of victims to “around one million” and your statement that the “two thousand years of Armenian civilization” were tied up to some never-before-heard “eastern Anatolia”.73.173.64.115 (talk) 22:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

I'd say that the also not very collaborative tone of your comments (despicable, poorly drafted etc.) do not encourage to take your comments seriously. I just agreed for reading your sources out of politeness, but also I do not believe there actually would exist sources for your claims. To your "never-before-heard" Eastern Anatolia claim I answer with three very common sources mentioning Eastern Anatolia or eastern extremity of Anatolia I found within the first google hits: New York Times Armenian Genocide.org and the United States Holocaust Museum , This does not encourage a reading to your other claims. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

My collaborative spirit, in case you didn’t notice, is manifested in several hundred edits that I’d proposed for this article, none of which had been implemented by your BFF editors. If my scholarly, high-standard, RS-based edits do not encourage you to take my comments seriously, then it is your problem, I’m sorry to say. And, it is a poorly drafted article. Many commentators on this talk page have attested to this. By the way, did you characterize their tone as “not very collaborative” as well? Sorry if I might have somehow overlooked your reply to them. And it is despicable to violate Misplaced Pages’s own policies. Is it not? Who gave the editors the right not to represent “fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic” as required by Misplaced Pages:NPOV? What, except for cooked up term “eastern Anatolia” there are no other, older, more geographically correct and widely used terms to designate the area? Or except that lousy “around one million” there are no other victim figures circulating in RSs?73.173.64.115 (talk) 14:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

Lol’ed at such “reliable academic sources” as New York Times Armenian Genocide.org and the United States Holocaust Museum. I’m in the middle of drafting a long list of modern, scholarly RSs that use toponyms other than the ridiculous toponymic invention “eastern East”, which designate the area where the bulk of the Armenian Genocide had occurred in more geographically and historically correct terms. As a courtesy to the authors and editors of this unrivalled article.73.173.64.115 (talk) 14:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian

Stop right there, and bring on what you have for now, because if the first one and the second don't match your claims I'll likely not read the rest of it.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 14:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course I would double check the sourcing before any approval. And I would strongly recommend to provide accessible sources, but it can also accessible over the Misplaced Pages Library. But I wouldn't approve of a change on a contested FA I haven't read the source of it. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• Interesting point David. You are right that the Armenian forces were driven out from Eastern Anatolia in 1919-20. This operation was led by Commander Kazım Karabekir, who had not discharged his troops after the First World War. The war was concluded with the Treaty of Gyumri in December 1920. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 19:03, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  I don’t know what you’re smoking, but there was nothing in my post remotely touching on these issues. Hallucinating? And my penname is not “David”. You must be smoking dirt.73.173.64.115 (talk) 19:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  Huh, why are you being so rude? 81.214.107.89 (talk) 19:25, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  Why are you being so detached from what's discussed in this thread?73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:23, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  I thought we were discussing the Armenian relocation. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  No, as the title of this discussion indicates, we were discussing the date of the Armenian Genocide mentioned in Infobox. Not the forced deportations of the Armenians.73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  Yes, I meant the date of the events occurred after the relocation. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 20:52, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  And we all here meant the date of the genocidal extermination of the Armenians that was carried out along with forced deportations from their ancestral lands.73.173.64.115 (talk) 20:59, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  The forced relocation took place in 1915-16. During the marches, Armenians were subject to attacks by Kurdish tribes and Arab bedouins. But the conflict between the Armenian militia and the Ottoman security forces continued until 1918. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 21:06, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  The only relevant, on-the-topic point in this delirium is that the genocidal annihilation of the Armenians by and/or on the orders of Turkish authorities—on site and during the death marches to deserts—continued well into 1918.73.173.64.115 (talk) 21:18, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  The relocation order was annulled in 15 March 1916 in with an order from the office of interior ministry. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  Of course, the bulk of Ottoman Armenian populations have already been “relocated” by that time to Syrian and Mesopotamian deserts—without doubt luxurious places to “relocate” masses of harmless civilians with no food and water. And mass murder, gangrape, abduct, and mutilate them along the way, too.73.173.64.115 (talk) 21:40, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  The resettlement route stretched out along the Euphrates river, giving water access to the Armenian refugees. The Ottoman government allocated a budget of 115 million kuruş and provided food and supplies to them. Armenian women were employed as seamstresses in Levant under Djemal Pasha. Ottoman gendarmerie protected them against bandit assaults. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 21:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  "Exactly"... One of those Armenian women was my great grandmother. Her body, under the "watchful protection" of Turkish gendarmes, was mutilated to the extent that only a ring-bearing finger remained, by which my miraculously survived grandmother was able to recognize her. Why won't you go tell your sick Turkish fairly tales somewhere else?73.173.64.115 (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  Just because you say that doesn't make it written history. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 22:05, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  Of course, of course… Hundreds of thousands of Armenian victims of Ottoman barbarity somehow forgot to take time to write down the details of “events” while on death marches or while being killed at their homes or burnt alive in the barns.73.173.64.115 (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  There were dozens of officials overseeing the relocation. None of them mention this. 81.214.107.89 (talk) 22:15, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  If you expect Turkish officials to mention or report the barbarities of executors of orders emanating from Yıldız, then, like I said, you must be smoking dirt. STOP right there.73.173.64.115 (talk) 22:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian

  Why are you so angry that I mention Turkish officials? 81.214.107.89 (talk) 22:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  Nice try. I’m angry at some Turk telling me, a descendant of genocide survivors, that the mass annihilation of a whole people was just “events”, that the Armenians were “relocated” and not forcibly deported, that the caring Ottoman government allocated a budget and provided food and supplies, and that the Turkish gendarmerie protected them against bandit assaults. Do you, Turks, really think that you’re smarter than everyone else? Well, Armenians know you well. Very well.73.173.64.115 (talk) 23:09, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Davidian