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Deleted as Copyvio
The old page was a Copyvio of , and had to go. It may be remakable. Adam Cuerden 23:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Homeopathic's objections
I've given an actual quote from Vithoulkas where he implies antibiotics cause Alzheimer's. This is someone who supposedly doesn't object to antibiotics? Adam Cuerden 16:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, i'll try to explain this as best as i can. Obviously i'm not G.V., but an MD who has studied and practiced Homeopathy for years, and i can more or less explain a few things about his writings. Regarding Antibiotics, he says that they are being abused, and that (in conjuction with the abuse of vaxinations) are leading to serious chronic diseases (including Alzheimer's, Cancer, Autoimmune diseases, you name it). He does NOT claim that Antibiotics should NOT be used, but rather that they should be used carefully. It's a whole theory you're not familiar with and it can not be explained in a few lines here, you need to read his books to understand. Saying that he says NOT to use Antibiotics, NOT to use Vaxines, NOT to use chemotherapy, is not what he supports. You will not find such a thing written anywhere - that is your understanding, by reading one article, and jumping to conclusions. One more thing: he does not say not to use homeopathy along with Chemotherapy, or other evidence-based techniques, but that in this case, the effect of Homeopathic remedies are a lot less effective, or in some cases, not effective at all. This differs from what you wrote, about the "should not be used" part & "makes it more difficult". Hope you understand.Homeopathic 17:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- Read this article which is a copy of the speech he made when receiving the Right Livehood Award (1996) at the Swedish Parliament. He explains in short a few important key-points of his theory regarding health and disease.Homeopathic 17:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- And also, i'd like to point out the fact that no editor has yet inserted the date (1978) of the critique regarding the "Science of Homeopathy", which is an outdated one, clearly not depicting the current views of the Homeopathic community and the acceptance Vithoulkas and his writings have received, as can be clearly seen by the other 3 references i've provided, from the same specialized bookshop and journal. Homeopathic 17:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Right. Thank you for an excellent reference about his distrust of vaccinations:
"Anxiety neurosis, compulsive neurosis, and in general mental disorders of a severe nature from which millions of patients are suffering in the western world, are almost unknown in these groups that have not had the "benefit" of modern medicine and vaccinations."
And, what's more: "The model suggests that all these chronic diseases, including hay fever, asthma, cancer and AIDS, are the result of wrong intervention upon the organisms by conventional medicine. It claims that the immune systems of the western population, through strong chemical drugs and repeated vaccinations, have broken down and finally admitted the diseases deeper and deeper into the human organism, to the central and peripheral nervous system."
Which is definately suitable for the article.
"In short, this model claims that conventional medicine, instead of curing diseases, is actually the cause of the degeneration of the human race."
Weren't you trying to tell me he wasn't against all conventional medicine?
"Due to this model, I had already, in 1970, predicted the appearance of AIDS, saying to a group of medical doctors in Athens that if conventional medicine continued to use antibiotics the way it did, there would come a time when the immune system would break down and new incurable diseases would emerge. It was an unfortunate but precise and timely prediction of the appearance of AIDS."
HE CLAIMS ANTIBIOTICS CREATED AIDS?!
You're right, that is an excellent introduction. I never would have believed he was that far out there had I not read it. Adam Cuerden 18:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- The fact that you do not agree with his views, does not give you the right to edit his page and insert what YOU understand from his writings. If you want to quote the man, do so, giving the full picture of his theory. But do not re-write his views as you understand them, and give FALSE interpretations like you did the first time. There is a big difference in the words "using" and "abusing" as far as conventional drugs and medicine are being concerned. Vithoulkas, for his work in the field of Classical Homeopathy and his theories for health and disease, was awarded the RightLivelihoodAward (and many others), and i think those organisations who awarded him know more than you on the subject (it's clear that you are against Homeopathy itself, probably not being able to accept the fact that superdiluted & succused substances have biological effects). Sorry about the spelling errors, vaccines do not have an X indeed!
- It is amazing how much you are twisting his views. Regarding AIDS he does NOT claim it is CREATED by antibiotics, but that it is "caused by the HIV virus", which infects someone with a weak immune system, the latter being "the result of drug overuse" (and of vaccinations) article.
- You may not agree with him (so do most MDs at the present day), but that does not give you the right to misinform users worldwide about his views.Homeopathic 04:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Sadly, as far as health views expressed on Misplaced Pages go, that's almost mainstream. Definitely a good source for his views, whenever the article gets unprotected. And just for the benefit of User:Homeopathic, M.D., there's no "x" in vaccine. MastCell 22:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Right. Let's try this suggestion:
He claims that "conventional medicine, instead of curing diseases, is actually the cause of the degeneration of the human race." He blames modern medicine, vaccinations, and antibiotics for mental disorders including various neurosis, hay fever, asthma, cancer and AIDS, claiming that "immune systems of the western population, through strong chemical drugs and repeated vaccinations, have broken down and finally admitted the diseases deeper and deeper into the human organism, to the central and peripheral nervous system."
He does not believe modern medicine extends lives, saying that "In the past, old people were getting illnesses and getting ready to die; but then they were given antibiotics, and they would go into a state of Alzheimer's and after that they would live very long... They are included in the figures for average life expectancy, but they are not alive."
He claims homeopathy can cure some cancers, but should not be used with chemotherapy and other evidence-based medicine treatments, as this supposedly makes homeopathic treatment "more difficult". He says that modern medicine will soon be recognised as a dead end, and that it needs taken apart and restructured according to the guidance of homeopaths.
Is it agreed this is a fair assessment of his views? Adam Cuerden 16:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on Vithoulkas' views (and judging by your conduct with regard to this article neither are you) but I suspect that your quotes have been selected, not because they are in any way representative of his views, but rather because you think that they are the most titillating or controversial. As such, they wouldn't meet the requirements of WP:BLP which warns against people inserting material to further a point of view. From the same interview, what I suspect is a more representative viewpoint is this: "It will need the co-operation of the medical authorities with us in order to find out which methods or treatments should be rejected and replaced by the homeopathic process, and which should be kept and continued. It is not a matter that can be solved by the ordinary people and their understanding of the complicated medical issues that exist today. If the medical authorities do not realise that their way of injecting unwisely chemical drugs into the organism upsets in a very deep way the homeostasis of the organism then there is no hope for a reconsideration of the whole medical system." --Lee Hunter 16:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, they're typical - both of those articles have lengthy sections along those lines. Have a look. Adam Cuerden 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- I mean, when he says repeatedly that his whole theory of medicine is abases around the thought that modern medicine is responsible for more harm than good, it's not POV-pushing to quote him on it. Would it help if I gave the exact quote(s) each of my sentences were based on, so that you could judge if, in context, they're still a fair version of his views? Adam Cuerden 17:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, they're typical - both of those articles have lengthy sections along those lines. Have a look. Adam Cuerden 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not exactly the most extreme views of his, anyway. I'd say that'd probably be something like:
Today, I want to make another prediction. If conventional medicine does not take notice of what we say and drastically change its practices and its logic in treating with chemical drugs; if it does not also change the direction of its research, soon diseases will go to the very centre of the organism, which is the nervous system, and most of the population on earth will be mentally ill individuals.
I do not expect that this theoretical model will be understood or appreciated soon by the medical authorities, but I think that from now on there is no excuse for ignoring the so-called side effects that conventional therapies have inflicted and are still inflicting on the human race.
- -The acceptance speech.
Adam Cuerden 18:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem is not when you quote his writings, but when you choose the most *dramatic* quotes, insert your own phrases, "summarize" as you'd like the rest, or presenting partially his views. This part, again from his speech at the Swedish Parliament, represents with accuracy his whole view on modern medicine, health and disease: "The model suggests that all these chronic diseases, including hay fever, asthma, cancer and AIDS, are the result of wrong intervention upon the organisms by conventional medicine. It claims that the immune systems of the western population, through strong chemical drugs and repeated vaccinations, have broken down and finally admitted the diseases deeper and deeper into the human organism, to the central and peripheral nervous system. In short, this model claims that conventional medicine, instead of curing diseases, is actually the cause of the degeneration of the human race. It is also very simple for anyone to think that if conventional medicine were really curing chronic diseases, today we would have a population in the west that was healthy, mentally, emotionally and physically." That is what he says, and that is exactly what he means. By editing his text, you're giving the wrong ideas as his views. Ρresent his whole theory exactly like he describes it, not just the part it suits you. Homeopathic 04:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have already answered you about this part "He claims homeopathy can cure some cancers, but should not be used with chemotherapy and other evidence-based medicine treatments, as this supposedly makes homeopathic treatment "more difficult". He does NOT say it should NOT be used with chemotherapy and other evidence-based medicine treatments, but rather that in these cases the homeopathic remedies are less effective, or in some cases (depending on the conventional drug used and its dose) no effective at all.Homeopathic 04:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, we can't use his text unedited. That's a copyvio. Not that it really matters with the AfD. Adam Cuerden 07:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I am one of the medical doctors that have followed Vithoulkas teachings over the years. Cuerden has misunderstood and misinterpreted the interview he is referring to. Vithoulkas always ridiculed the exaggerated statements by some Indian homeopaths claiming that are curing all the cancer cases. He has been very critical on a number of issues -crazy ideas- within the homeopathic profession. No where in his teachings he is claiming of curing cancer . Even the one case he mentions in the interview leaves the doubt that may have been misdiagnosed. Concerning antibiotics and vaccinations is not only Vithoulkas who claims that they have side-effects . There is a whole literature too long to mention it here. Yet he never claimed that they have to be banned but only to be used with caution in order to minimise side-effects. I am requesting him to put up his real opinions on these matters from the video teachings of the Academy from past years for every one to see. Will he do it? I am not sure he is reading what is going on. A.K. MD 62.38.77.145 12:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Request for deletion
I have the authority from Professor George Vithoulkas to ask you to delete his article from your wikipedia immediately. He considers this discussion unfair and biased. Maria Chorianopoulou, PhD, Assistant to Professor George Vithoulkas, maria@vithoulkas.com213.5.45.122 17:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Lee Hunter, please can you tell us what is the official process of deleting the article about George Vithoulkas? We ask wikipedia to delete the page and they do not. Maria Chorianopoulou, PhD, Assistant to Professor George Vithoulkas, maria@vithoulkas.com213.5.45.122 18:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Maria - You can contact Misplaced Pages to request the article be removed: here. Hope this helps, MidgleyDJ 18:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- You may also wish to note that Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/George Vithoulkas (Second nomination) is currently considering deletion of this article. .. dave souza, talk 18:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Maria - You can contact Misplaced Pages to request the article be removed: here. Hope this helps, MidgleyDJ 18:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Mr Dave Souza, we consider all this discussion ridiculous and biased. Please, take action so that the article about George Vithoulkas is immediately deleted. I will also inform the central office of wikipedia. Maria Chorianopoulou, PhD, Assistant to Professor George Vithoulkas, maria@vithoulkas.com213.5.45.122 19:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
recent changes
I just participated in the discussion about deletion of this article and did some rewrites on the text itself.
I created a top section summarizing biographical details. I created a "views" section to catch all of the quotes that the previous version had contained. I also created a section on praise and criticism and moved appropriate stuff into that section.
The views section contains some very extreme stuff. I am not an expert on this author and do not know if these few quotes are really the essense of his various positions. I think this section needs some additional work by another editor who knows more about the subject. Abridged 15:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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