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Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2023
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I'd like to change the writing of the first paragraph of the «Dialects» section, specifically the following passage
During the standardization process of the Macedonian language, the dialectal base selected was primarily based on the West-Central dialects, which spans the triangle of the communities Makedonski Brod, Kičevo, Demir Hisar, Bitola, Prilep, and Veles. These were considered the most widespread and most likely to be adopted by speakers from other regions.The initial idea to select this region as a base was first proposed in Krste Petkov Misirkov's works as he believed the Macedonian language should abstract on those dialects that are distinct from neighboring Slavic languages, such as Bulgarian and Serbian. Likewise, this view does not take into account the fact that a Macedonian koiné language was already in existence.
The very last sentence leads to think a Macedonian koiné, though already existing by the time of codification, was replaced or not taken into account by the standardizing team. By that indication, the writing is ambiguous. However, that's not the impression that is shown on the source provided (Comrie & Corbett 2002). It says:
During the Second World War, Tito's Communists won jurisdiction over Macedonia, and on 2 August 1944, Macedonian was formally declared the official language of the Republic of Macedonia. The standardization of Literary Macedonian proceeded rapidly after its official recognition, in part because an inter-dialectal koine was already functioning. The West Central region , which was the largest in both area and population, supplied a dialectal base to which speakers from other areas could adjust their speech most easily. In many respects these dialects are also maximally differentiated from both Serbo-Croat and Bulgarian, but differentiation was not an absolute principle in codification.
The source states that the West-Central dialect codification of Macedonian was facilitated by the fact that a koiné was already in place. However, it gives the impression that it was either not based off these dialects or was just ignored. 190.237.37.156 (talk) 19:09, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for flagging this. The sentence you highlighted indeed makes no sense in this context – not least because there is no antecedent to the "likewise", and it is not clear what the "this view" refers to. The sentence was first inserted together with a version of the preceding text that was much more argumentative than it is now . I'd say it will be best to simply remove the sentence. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Done closed because Fut.Perf. deleted the bolded sentence. Xan747 (talk) 19:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Macedonian personal pronouns
I'm curious as to why the lower case Latin "m" appears in this table, when it seems like it should be a Cyrillic т. For example, there is a sentence above the table that indicates таа = she and тој = he, but the table shows "maa" and "moj", respectively. As far as I can tell, "m" doesn't occur in their alphabet at all. It shows up in several entries for both 2nd and 3rd person, where it seems like т is the correct letter. (I didn't want to add a correction since I don't really know the language and perhaps there is some other reason it is there?) If it is incorrect, could someone with more knowledge of the language correct it? Благодарам 100.15.197.43 (talk) 00:03, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Check out Macedonian alphabet. It's not a Latin "m". Putting т in italics makes it т. --Local hero 03:16, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
Inaccurate maps
Both the maps of the distribution on the first part of the page and in the dialects part are unsourced and frankly inaccurate, to add up the first shows random dots all over Greece where supposed minority speakers live but this is unsourced and really just false. 194.30.254.75 (talk) 10:05, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I tagged the first map. As for the map of dialects, I think there was controversy over it and it was supposed to be updated, but this has not happened. StephenMacky1 (talk) 10:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- According to modern Western sociolinguists, the dispute where the border between Bulgarian and Macedonian runs is entirely irrelevant from a modern perspective, as it fails to take into consideration the ethnic and linguistic identity of the speakers. According to Peter Trudgill, the question whether Bulgarian and Macedonian are distinct languages or dialects of a single language cannot be resolved on a purely linguistic basis, but should rather take into account sociolinguistic criteria, i.e., ethnic and linguistic identity of the speakers. Jouko Lindstedt also opines that the dividing line between Macedonian and Bulgarian should be defined by the linguistic identity of the speakers, i.e., by the state border: Even Macedonian linguists as Božidar Vidoeski consider the eastern Macedonian dialects to be transitional to Bulgarian, including the Maleševo-Pirin dialect. According to Riki van Boeschoten, the Slavic dialects of Greek Macedonia are divided into three main dialects (Eastern, Central and Western), of which the Eastern dialect is used in the areas of Serres and Drama, and is closest to Bulgarian, the Western dialect is used in Florina and Kastoria, and is closest to Macedonian, the Central dialect is used in the area between Edessa and Salonica and is an intermediate between Macedonian and Bulgarian. Trudgill classifies certain peripheral dialects in the far east of Greek Macedonia as part of the Bulgarian language area and the rest as Macedonian dialects. Victor Friedman considers those Macedonian dialects, but particularly those spoken as west as Kilkis, to be transitional to Bulgarian. In this way this map presents a biased or at least not neutral POV. Jingiby (talk) 15:55, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Chambers, Jack; Trudgill, Peter (1998). Dialectology (2nd ed.). Cambridge University Press. pp. 7.
Similarly, Bulgarian politicians often argue that Macedonian is simply a dialect of Bulgarian – which is really a way of saying, of course, that they feel Macedonia ought to be part of Bulgaria. From a purely linguistic point of view, however, such arguments are not resolvable, since dialect continua admit of more-or-less but not either-or judgements.
- Tomasz Kamusella, Motoki Nomachi, Catherine Gibson as ed., The Palgrave Handbook of Slavic Languages, Identities and Borders, Springer, 2016; ISBN 1137348399, p. 436.
- Vidoeski, Božo (2005). Dialects of Macedonian. Slavica. p. 33. ISBN 9780893573157.
the northern border zone and the extreme southeast towards Bulgarian linguistic territory. It was here that the formation of transitional dialect belts between Macedonian and Bulgarian in the east, and Macedonian and Serbian in the north began.
- Boeschoten, Riki van (1993): Minority Languages in Northern Greece. Study Visit to Florina, Aridea, (Report to the European Commission, Brussels) "The Western dialect is used in Florina and Kastoria and is closest to the language used north of the border, the Eastern dialect is used in the areas of Serres and Drama and is closest to Bulgarian, the Central dialect is used in the area between Edessa and Salonica and forms an intermediate dialect"
- Ioannidou, Alexandra (1999). Questions on the Slavic Dialects of Greek Macedonia. Athens: Peterlang. pp. 59, 63. ISBN 9783631350652.
In September 1993 ... the European Commission financed and published an interesting report by Riki van Boeschoten on the "Minority Languages in Northern Greece", in which the existence of a "Macedonian language" in Greece is mentioned. The description of this language is simplistic and by no means reflective of any kind of linguistic reality; instead it reflects the wish to divide up the dialects comprehensibly into geographical (i.e. political) areas. According to this report, Greek Slavophones speak the "Macedonian" language, which belongs to the "Bulgaro-Macedonian" group and is divided into three main dialects (Western, Central and Eastern) - a theory which lacks a factual basis.
{{cite book}}:|journal=ignored (help) - Trudgill P., 2000, "Greece and European Turkey: From Religious to Linguistic Identity". In: Stephen Barbour and Cathie Carmichael (eds.), Language and Nationalism in Europe, Oxford : Oxford University Press, p.259.
- Heine, Bernd; Kuteva, Tania (2005). Language Contact and Grammatical Change. Cambridge University Press. p. 118. ISBN 9780521608282.
in the modern northern and eastern Macedonian dialects that are transitional to Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian, e.g. in Kumanovo and Kukus/Kilkis, object reduplication occurs with less consistency than in the west-central dialects