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As the peculiar name suggests, what evidence there is indicates this is/was a rail stop and not a settlement. Looking at the Russian version, I see that it was designated a село, but even given the vague nature of the term, there's no evidence that there was or is a village/whatever there; indeed, I cannot find a feature on GMaps or anything similar which I can identify as this place. Mangoe (talk) 21:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Delete I'm functionally illiterate in Russian, so I can't read the sources for myself, but all the article says is "This is a place in the middle of nowhere" and basically nothing else. If something important goes on there or we get more information, we can resurrect it. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 02:02, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Population of 2, which is non-zero, according to Results of the 2020 All-Russian Population Census for the Sakhalin Region, and which was probably rather more at the time the settlement was founded. Did nobody bother to look at the corresponding article in Russian (with 9 references) at ru:17-й км (Сахалинская область)? Being named after a railway kilometre-post is not a reason for deletion. Consider 100 Mile House in British Columbia, several place names at Mile End (disambiguation) and Two Mile. We have enough evidence to keep the article. Dismissing it as only a railway point is unjustified and the dreaded "original research". Google Translate's version of the Russian article. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 04:10, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 11:44, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Needs a brutal cleanup, a copyedit, and a couple factual corrections, but I can confirm this is a place that's categorized as an inhabited locality and previously had people living there, which is all that's needed to keep a geostub according to our geonotability criteria. Keep.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); October 4, 2023; 21:42 (UTC) 21:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - The “population” of 2 people are discussing above is entirely consistent with the staff of the railway station! If the GEOLAND standard (a guideline) is literally leading us to keep articles about non-notable railway stations in the middle of nowhere that nothing notable can be written about against WP:IINFO (a policy) then that’s a reason to doubt that GEOLAND is guiding us correctly. GEOLAND anyway only creates a presumption of notability, a presumption that is decisively rebutted by a simple reference to common sense: this is a railway station with a staff of two people. No evidence at all is presented above of it having ever been anything but this.
- None of the references in the Russian language article help with this - indeed they highlight the true nature of what is being discussed: the locality had no population when it was designated a “village” in 2004, it had no population at the next census either. In 2021 the locality was recorded with a population of 2 people. “Village” status in Russia can therefore be given to locations with an official population of zero. This is therefore not a “legally recognised populated place” since it does not need to have a population to receive or keep the status. FOARP (talk) 03:16, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is very much a "legally recognized populated place" because a) it is listed as such in all official lists of populated places (whereas generic railway stations are not); and b) the staff of railway stations is counted at the official place of residence of the said staff (which must be at an officially recognized inhabited locality, not at a place of work like a railway station). Inhabited locality status is also never given to (yet or already) unpopulated areas (although a previously populated place with an inhabited locality status may still retain said status despite later becoming depopulated); but even then (and even after officially having been removed from record) such places would continue to meet our criteria for keeping. The 2004 law which granted this place the status of a selo was simply one that unified the types of smaller inhabited localities across the whole of Sakhalin Oblast; it was not one transforming a random railway station into a brand new populated place; "17 km" already had populated place status before that (since at least 1948, as a matter of fact). It was one of seven rural localities (5 "settlements" and 2 "stations") under jurisdiction of Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk which got reclassified as selos (both "settlement" and "station" had already been legally recognized types of rural localities before; along with "village" and "selo"). Furthermore, the Law on the Administrative-Territorial division of 2011 (and the Law this one replaced) specifically clarified that supporting structures are not on their own considered to be proper inhabited localities; inhabited locality status would specifically have to be granted for that to stop being the case:
- Населённые местности, имеющие временное значение и непостоянный состав населения и (или) являющиеся объектами служебного назначения (вахтовые и дачные посёлки, железнодорожные будки, дома лесников, заимки, полевые станы, метеостанции, животноводческие стоянки, прииски, лесоучастки и другие объекты), а также одиночные дома не являются самостоятельными населёнными пунктами и числятся за теми населёнными пунктами, с которыми находятся в административных, производственно-коммерческих и социально-бытовых отношениях. (Populated territories with temporary significance and non-permanent population and (or) service objects (shift and dacha settlements, railroad cabins, foresters' houses, camps, field camps, meteorological stations, livestock camps, mines, timber plots, and other objects), as well as stand-alone houses are not considered to be inhabited localities and are registered with those inhabited localities with which they are in administrative, industrial-commercial, and social-residential relations--Article 8.4).
- Сельские населённые пункты делятся на следующие виды: 1) село; 2) посёлок; 3) станция; 4) разъезд; 5) хутор; 6) иные населённые пункты, не отнесенные к городским населённым пунктам. (Rural locality types include: 1) selo; 2) settlement; 3) station; 4) junction; 5) khutor; 6) other inhabited localities not classified as urban--Article 8.3).
- I also would like to note that assuming that just the population is 2 it means it must be "staff" is pure original research and a conjecture. The very WP:NGEO you're quoting states that opulated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low. Even abandoned places can be notable, because notability encompasses their entire history, and there is plenty of evidence that 17 km is indeed a legally recognized place, which was populated in the past, even if it not now.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); October 5, 2023; 04:39 (UTC) 04:39, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is very much a "legally recognized populated place" because a) it is listed as such in all official lists of populated places (whereas generic railway stations are not); and b) the staff of railway stations is counted at the official place of residence of the said staff (which must be at an officially recognized inhabited locality, not at a place of work like a railway station). Inhabited locality status is also never given to (yet or already) unpopulated areas (although a previously populated place with an inhabited locality status may still retain said status despite later becoming depopulated); but even then (and even after officially having been removed from record) such places would continue to meet our criteria for keeping. The 2004 law which granted this place the status of a selo was simply one that unified the types of smaller inhabited localities across the whole of Sakhalin Oblast; it was not one transforming a random railway station into a brand new populated place; "17 km" already had populated place status before that (since at least 1948, as a matter of fact). It was one of seven rural localities (5 "settlements" and 2 "stations") under jurisdiction of Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk which got reclassified as selos (both "settlement" and "station" had already been legally recognized types of rural localities before; along with "village" and "selo"). Furthermore, the Law on the Administrative-Territorial division of 2011 (and the Law this one replaced) specifically clarified that supporting structures are not on their own considered to be proper inhabited localities; inhabited locality status would specifically have to be granted for that to stop being the case: