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The opinion of the International Taekwon-Do Federation vs the opinion of the World Taekwondo Federation
There are two organisations: the ITF and the WTF. The ITF was founded by Choi Hong Hi and the ITF believe that he is the creator of Taekwondo. The WTF believes Taekwondo was developed by a variety of Korean masters by collaborative effort. In cases of MPOV, both POV should be represented. The article covers these these POVs. I suggest that the template field 'creator' should be left empty or filled with 'various'. jmcw (talk) 22:20, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Take a look at when the ITF was founded (1964) and when the WTF was founded 1969. Now take a look at when General Choi started teaching Taekwondo 1955. The reason as to why the WTF states that Choi was not the founder is merely political. The New York Times states that he is the creator of TaeKwondo. . South Korea created a totally different Taekwondo, but kept the name. It's techniques are different as well as the goals in sparring. . Additionally, many people recognize Choi as the founder. Those of the WTF say that TKD existed before Choi (which it didn't, Taekkyeon is a completely different art) or the WTF says it was a formation from different masters, but fails to mention who the masters are. General Choi wanted to teach TKD to north koreans and was essentially exiled to Canada. He later moved to North Korea and is labeled a traitor by many Koreans. Thus you can see why he the WTF tries to delete or omit his place in history. By the way, I have studied both WTF and ITF TKD. I have no preference in the styles. I do though only want the truth to be shown. CrazyAces489 (talk) 09:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is not about WP:TRUTH - it is about reliably sourced information. This article has two reliable sourced views on the origins of TKD. According to the Misplaced Pages policy WP:NPOV, we should present both views in a balance way. I suggest that we either leave the 'creator' field blank or return the 'in the opinion of' attribution that you removed. jmcw (talk) 10:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- And by the way, I agree with your analysis. But to put this logic into the article would violate Misplaced Pages policy WP:OR. jmcw (talk) 10:22, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- There are tons of sources which give both sides. So what is to be done? CrazyAces489 (talk) 10:54, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
http://www.martialartsarticlesonline.com/taekwondoolympicpast.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by CrazyAces489 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, there are good sources. I suggest that in the info box 'creator' field that we say 'see the article'. You and I do not have to decide who is right or wrong. jmcw (talk) 11:05, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- it takes away from the article. people want quick access. I suggest having 2 sections for founders to make it easier. ITF - General Choi and 1955. WTF - whatever date they list. OR we can ask for a 3rd opinion or get other editors to review it. CrazyAces489 (talk) 12:39, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- I would have no problem with simply 'According to ITF, Choi Hong'. jmcw (talk) 12:50, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I did not see that the article has changed. It looks good now with the attribution to ITF. jmcw (talk) 12:55, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- That's fine. That was before you made this posting. Take a look at these links. http://www.kidokwan.org/articles/the-evolution-of-taekwondo-from-japanese-karate/ this link omits Choi all together CrazyAces489 (talk) 06:52, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Massive changes on November 25, 2013
This article has multiple points of view. With almost 8000 bytes of changes in 3 hours, it is not possible to see how the multiple POV have changed. Please make smaller changes over several days. Thank you! jmcw (talk) 19:58, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Opening Paragraph (karate)
The opening paragraph currently says:
- Taekwondo was developed during the 1940s and 1950s by Korean martial artists, the most well-known being General Choi Hong Hi, as a combination of the indigenous traditions of taekkyeon, gwonbeop, and subak.
That's not really true, right? Taekwondo is really more like a Korean offshoot of karate, with some elements of other Korean and Chinese martial arts thrown-in. I'm not saying, "taekwondo is just karate" -- I'm saying, the opening paragraph as it is currently written completely omits any mention of karate, which seems like a huge oversight. See http://taekwondo.wikia.com/Timeline_of_Taekwondo, for example.
Truejim (talk) 22:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
upper case or lower case?
Troughout the whole article capital T and lower t are mixed. Why?--Mideal (talk) 10:44, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Why do you delete karate influence? 'Founder of Taekwondo' learns karate.
check Choi Hong Hi.
organizations, portray Choi as either an unimportant or a dishonorable figure in taekwondo history, whether by omitting him from their versions of taekwondo history.
The Korean does not accept influence of karete. However, the taekwondo is not really managed without karate. 218.230.179.247 (talk) 02:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
Shotokan Karate influence omitted
How is it possible to omit the fact that Taekwondo is largely based on Shotokan Karate? The general reference to Karate influences seems really little to me considering that also all of the katas were "imported" from Shotokan.
Kagite (talk) 02:04, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Taekwondo uniform and ranking system is a copy of KARATE.
Korea was a colony of Japan. Korea hides influence of Japan.221.185.252.67 (talk) 21:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Taekwondo or Taekwon-do
The article uses two spellings: taekwondo and taekwon-do. The latter spelling appears to be associated with ITF sources (?), while the former appears to be from everywhere else. Since the title of this article is "Taekwondo", I suggest we be consistent and use that spelling throughout the article (while preserving the original titles of cited sources, whatever they use, of course.) (There is also the question of internal capitalization (TaeKwonDo), but I think that is a topic for a separate discussion.) — Loadmaster (talk) 17:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- The ITF spells it taekwon-do, and pretty much everybody else spells it taekwondo. So when you see it written taekwon-do, you know the sentence pertains primarily to ITF-style. Truejim (talk) 21:11, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
- That does not address the issue for Misplaced Pages, which stresses consistency within its articles. I suggest we use the most widely used spelling (taekwondo) instead of variants that are specific to single organizations. — Loadmaster (talk) 18:14, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
The origin of Tae Kwon Do in this article is wrong!
Tae Kwon Do originated about 2,000 years ago! Someone needs to fix all that, and I'm not sure how to, I just made my account. S. Snipes (talk) 15:05, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Famous practitioners
The "Famous practitioners" list in the infobox is long and unwieldy. It contains listings of minor figures in the field that could hardly be considered famous. Can it be trimmed to 2 or 3 individuals? Gnome de plume (talk) 12:04, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
"Often mispronounced"?
The header of this article currently cites the correct pronunciation of Taekwondo as , and then describes /ˌtaɪkwɒnˈdoʊ/ and /ˌtaɪˈkwɒndoʊ/ as "mispronunciations". No other article describes anglicised pronunciations of foreign words as incorrect, nor should they in my opinion. Am I being unreasonable, or should "commonly mispronounced as" be removed?
Justin Kunimune (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Hong Hi Choi learned Taekkyeon?
Can someone verify this book? Is there really such mention of Hong Hi Choi learning Taekkyeon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 16:14, 16 January 2019 (UTC) I'm told that the first 5 Gwan/gym became 9 Gwan/gym, which united to become Taekwondo in 1960's. This means Chang Moo Kwan's Gwonbub was a significant factor in Taekwondo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 16:23, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
References
- Park, S. H. (1993): About the author. In H. H. Choi: Taekwon-Do: The Korean art of self-defence, 3rd ed. (Vol. 1, pp. 241–274). Mississauga: International Taekwon-Do Federation.
1960's 9 Gwan/Kwan/Gyms united to create Taekwondo in relation to Pasa-Gwonbeop & Karate
Taekwondo is a mix of Gwonbeop gym & Karate gyms. The following 5 Gwan gyms were the most famous & the earliest in Taekwondo history. Later, these became 9 Gwan/Kwan/Gyms (particularly with the Gwonbeop gym's expansion into 4 more Gwan/Kwan/Gym), which united in 1960's to become Taekwondo. Taekwondo is a mix of 4 Karate gyms & 5 Gwonbeop gyms. YMCA Gwonbeop Club's Gwonbeop was different from Karate; there is an old publication called "Pasa-Gwonbeop" by Cheolheui Park which contained what was taught at the YMCA Gwonbeop Club. It includes postures similar to Taekwondo/Karate such as Taekwondo/Karate punch (which already existed in 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop pictures), but it also includes postures very different from Taekwondo/Karate (proving Gwonbeop lineage to Gwonbeop, not some other art).
Chung Do Kwan - founded by Lee Won Kuk. Trained in Shotokan by Gichin and Gigo Funakoshi. In 1944, He was granted permission by the Japanese Governor and General to begin teaching Karate in Seoul.
Song Moo Kwan - Founded in 1946 by Ro Byung Jick. Studied karate under Gichin Funakoshi along with Chung Do Kwan founder Lee Won Kuk in Japan.
Moo Duk Kwan - Founded in 1945 by Hwang Kee. Trained Chinese kung fu and japanese karate.
Ji Do Kwan - Founded in 1946 by Chun Sang Sup. Studied Shotokan karate with Gichin Funakoshi in Japan.
Chang Moo Kwan - Founded in 1946 by Yoon Byung-in and taught Gwonbub in YMCA. It is unclear when & how Byungin Yoon trained Karate. He was given 5th Dan in Karate while in college; he only spent his college years exposed to Karate. Regardless, he was trained in Gwonbeop & Kung Fu as well; he taught Gwonbeop.
There are visual differences between Korean Gwonbeop & the original Chinese Quan Fa. The following is the 300 years old Korean pictures on Korean Gwonbub/Gwonbeop. Mas Oyama also recorded in his book about Chosun(Korean)-Gwonbeop.
Quoting the book "Gwan/Gym Oriented Retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History" by Cheolheui Park: "I was preteen when I first met Taekwondo. At the time, the person who taught Taekwondo (I learned from YMCA Gwonbeop club, which called it Gwonbeop) was master Byungin Yoon.", "After Korea was liberated, Master (Yoon) was a gym teacher in Gyungsung Agriculture school, taught his martial art. Later, he moved to Gyungdong Middle School. Even Woonyong Kim who was the WTF Taekwondo president learned Gwonbub in that school.", "In 1946, at Seoul Jongro's YMCA, Byungin Yoon established a Gwonbeop club then started teaching martial art seriously. Originally, master Yoon taught at Chosunyeonmukwan Gwonbeop club with master Sangseob Jeon.", "The Gwans that came out of YMCA Gwonbub Club are the following. Jungpyo Hong opened Mudowon; I took over & changed its name to Gangdukwon. Namsuk Lee & Soonbae Kim's Changmugwan. Dongju Lee's Gangmugwan, etc. Namseok's Lee's student opened Choongmugwan. Sungkyunkwan University's captain also opened a Dojang/Dojo.", "Honghi Choi, the founder of ITF Taekwondo also visited YMCA Gwonbub Club time to time.", "YMCA Gwonbub club created Changmugwan & Gangdeokwon". Cheolheui Park was born in 1933. Trained Gwonbub in YMCA Gwonbub club. After the Korean war, started Gangdeokwon. He was the Taekwondo teacher in Military Army School, Gyungmudae Martial Art teacher, Daehan Taesudo Federation's Executive Secretary.
"'백만인의 가라테'의 저자 소개를 보면, 그는 9세 경에 권법을 배워 중학 2년에 초단이 되었다고 하고 있어 권법을 배웠다고 할 수 있다. 하지만, 전 세계의 무예를 소개하는 내용에는 조선의 무예를 서술하면서 그 특징으로 박치기와 머리카락(댕기머리?) 치기, 어깨치기 등의 특이한 기법이 있었다고 하며 발을 사용하는 소년과 선비의 대결 모습을 그림으로 표현하면서, ‘조선권법’이라고 기재하고 있어". Translation: "In the author biography in the book '1 Million's Karate', Oyama learned Gwonbub at age 9, he became black belt in the 2nd grade of middle school. It can be said that he learned Gwonbeop. In his contents introducing martial arts of the world, he described Korean martial art. In characteristics, there are headbutt, hair strike, shoulder strike, etc special techniques. He showed a picture of a boy and a man kicking; he called it Chosun(Korean)-Gwonbeop."
The term and the sport Gwonbeop (권법, 拳法) started 300 years ago in Korea by editing Chinese Quan Fa and mixing Subak with it. This was done by a 300 years old Korean martial art textbook Muyedobotongji. Gwonbeop was taught in Korea at YMCA Gwonbeop club in the mid 20th century which used the name Gwonbeop like Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop. After Gwonbeop was mixed with Karate, Taekwondo was started in the 1960's by the 9 gyms involving Gwonbeop & Karate. Cheolheui Park published a book called Pasa-Gwonbeop when he was young. Besides Okinawan Karate's Kata, the book Pasa-Gwonbeop also includes Gibonhyung 1~5 and Jeonggonghyung 1 which were done in YMCA Gwonbeop Club before Pasa-Gwonbeop was published. YMCA Gwonbeop club's Gwonbeop (included in the book Pasa-Gwonbeop) has many postures looking similar to Taekwondo/Karate (such as Taekwondo/Karate punch, which already existed in 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop pictures) while also having postures looking distinct from it. YMCA Gwonbeop club's Gwonbeop was different from Karate.
Gwonbeop, which started 300 years ago by Muyedobotongji in Korea, existed in Korea even 100 years ago such as Mas Oyama's middle school years. It is unclear when Byungin Yoon learned Gwonbeop, but he must have learned it at some point of time to teach Gwonbeop. Cheolheui Park's Pasa-Gwonbeop (published when he was young) looks somewhat different from Muyedobotongji Gweonbeop, which could be from Byungin Yoon's Kung Fu experience.
Byungin Yoon was also involved in the development of North Korean Gyuksul. North Korea has a fight game called Kyuksul. According to historical records referred by Mookas martial art magazine, "the earlier contests were about the same as boxing, but in 1987's 7th contest, it evolved to the level of kickboxing."
Gyuksul was originally from Subak. In the new Gyuksul rules & techniques, Gyuksul also resembles Sibak (Korean street fighting games) & Gwonbeop (Muyedobotongji).
Those 3 pictures are Gyuksul moves. There are similar moves in Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop, except that Gwonbub's wild swing with shoulder-push uses vertical fist while Gyuksul uses horizontal fist. Those 3 pictures resemble these two 300 years old Korean Gwonbeop pictures.
North Korean Gyuksul started from Subak. Then it evolved to be like Sibak & Gwonbeop by the influence of Byungin Yoon and his art Gwonbeop taught at YMCA, which became a root of Taekwondo. Byungin Yoon's Gwonbeop different from Karate is shown by Cheolheui Park's Pasa-Gwonbeop published when he was young. Byungin Yoon's Gwonbeop influenced both Taekwondo & Gyuksul; the influence is from Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop.
References
- "300 years old Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbub's Taekwondo punch".
- "300 years old Korean Gwonbub picture pushing shoulder in punch for mass & strength".
- "300 years old Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbub's Taekwondo punch".
- "a couple 300 years old Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbub moves".
- "Mas Oyama's mention of Korean Gwonbub 100 years ago".
- .
{{cite web}}: Check|url=value (help) - "Mas Oyama's mention of Korean Gwonbub 100 years ago".
- "Cheolheui Park's testimony on Byungin Yoon & Pasa-Gwonbeop".
- "Cheolheui Park's Pasa-Gwonbeop 1".
- "Cheolheui Park's Pasa-Gwonbeop 2".
- "Cheolheui Park's Pasa-Gwonbeop 3".
- "Boxing-like origin of Gyuksul".
- "Gyuksul picture 1".
- "Gyuksul picture 2".
- "Gyuksul picture 3".
- "300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop pictures resembling Gyuksul".
As for whether Byungin Yoon's Gwonbeop was pure Gwonbeop or was influenced by Karate & Kung Fu
As for whether Byungin Yoon's Gwonbeop was pure Gwonbeop or was influenced by Karate & Kung Fu. For discussing what's possible, you have the burden of proof. It's not about what's possible but what's proven. Just like all other topics. Also, in any case, Byungin Yoon taught Gwonbeop, not some other art. This Gwonbeop was documented by Cheolheui Park's Pasa-Gwonbeop publication. It doesn't matter when Byungin Yoon learned Gwonbeop. The point is he learned it; he taught. Mas Oyama also learned Gwonbeop while he was 9 to the 2nd grade in the middle school. Byungin Yoon probably also learned Gwonbeop when he was young. It doesn't matter when he learned it. The point is, he taught it.
Also, the basic moves in Karate also existed in Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop anyway including chambered rotation punch. Whether the Gwonbeop that Byungin Yoon taught was pure Gwonbeop or not, it was Gwonbeop anyway, which came from Subak. It wasn't Karate but Gwonbeop in name & in content (proven by Pasa-Gwonbeop).
Also, Taekwondo is just one topic. The same logic applies for all topics with the burden of proof. What's claimed should be proven. What's possible shouldn't have to be disproven. Korean had power circus (power magic show, powerful strikes were created by common sense strikes & practice, trial & error) Breaking game predating Karate's Tameshiwari. (This form of Breaking/Tameshiwari predates martial arts doing Breaking.) Korean had street fighting games (Taekyun-Yetbub, Sibak) which had no-spin horizontal fist punch. Also, Korean had Subak, which had frontal slaps like Subyuk (Hand-Clapping) but also punches unlike Subyuk (nickname, Ken, fist).
Also, all sources have to be reputable, as in meeting the academic standard for reputable sources. Wiki also has the same standard. My sources are from scholarship & news organizations, mostly scholarly sources & reputable newspapers. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources As for me being wrong in whether Taekwondo had solely Gwonbeop lineage or also Karate lineage (apparently not mutually exclusive), it's irrelevant. Just because I was wrong in something doesn't mean I'm wrong in another thing again. Just because I was correct once in something doesn't mean I'm correct again. All events are independent of each other. If I was wrong, I gather more counter-evidences & counter-logic; I fix my stance. If I'm right, there's nothing to fix; my conclusions from my reputable references & sources are correct in any topic. It's always about the logical inferences, proofs, sources. And there is no counter logic nor counter evidence for any of the topics I'm talking about whether Breaking, Taekkyeon Yetbub, Subak, etc. I'm the facts in such topics I talk about now. They are proven with reputable (& also old) references & reputable sources. I don't have a leap in logical inference this time. All proofs & sources are solid.
My focus on Byungin Yoon was mainly that Taekkwondo has connection to Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop and also Subak. Taekwondo is tainted; it is indeed mixed with other arts like Karate & Kung Fu. Still, the point is whether traditional Korean lineage & connection exist or not. Taekwondo is connected to Gwonbeop. Also, all the main basic moves in Taekwondo/Karate already existed in Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop 300 years ago.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 20:11, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Draft:Syed Taha Bukhari
hii, can you help me in creating an article of Draft:Syed Taha Bukhari, i am facing many problem to creating it... Ttttt321 (talk). 17:07, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Taekwondo
Voice
P 98.58.104.9 (talk) 15:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- me too toobigtokale (talk) 22:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
==
Significant edits
I made some significant edits, sorry if I stepped on any toes, I know I deleted a lot. Some reminders:
- Don't add information without sources
- If you use multiple pages from a source, indicate which page number you used. See how the article Cleopatra does it for reference.
- "Taekwondo" shouldn't always be capitalized, see WP:WPMA
Proper names of individual schools of martial arts should be capitalized e.g., "Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryū" or "Shotokan". Broad types of martial arts should not be capitalized e.g., "kenjutsu", or "karate" (see above for definition of 'art' vs 'school').
- Romanized terms that haven't yet become accepted words in English (e.g. hogu) should be italicized (preferrably wrapped in the Transliteration template), as per MOS:FOREIGNITALIC. "Taekwondo" is considered an acceptable english term because it's in dictionaries (apparently)
- Non-english text (e.g. 호구) should be wrapped in appropriate language template (here, usually Template:Korean)
- Try to only link when you think it'll be useful to the reader (generally once or twice per article). Don't link every noun or subject, we end up overhighlighting.
Much of what I deleted was either unsourced or out of scope with the article. Please feel free to discuss if you disagree with choices I made and feel free to add stuff back yourself. Thanks. toobigtokale (talk) 00:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Infobox image
Can we find an alternative infobox image? It's a great image but tragically has that blurry thing in the lower left corner. I think a good candidate would have a simple background, so it's immediately clear what the subject is.
After scrolling through several hundred pics, all I can find is this. It's decent but I don't like the blue background for some reason. toobigtokale (talk) 02:01, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
.jpg){kind=link}
- Something like these: . These are copyrighted though, and there's small things about both that aren't ideal. toobigtokale (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)