Misplaced Pages

Talk:The Lord of the Rings

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Chiswick Chap (talk | contribs) at 09:04, 10 December 2023 (→The Ring of the Nibelung & Wagner get no mention?: r). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 09:04, 10 December 2023 by Chiswick Chap (talk | contribs) (→The Ring of the Nibelung & Wagner get no mention?: r)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Skip to table of contents
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Lord of the Rings article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9Auto-archiving period: 30 days 

Template:Vital article

This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Former featured articleThe Lord of the Rings is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Good articleThe Lord of the Rings has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 5, 2006.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 16, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
April 17, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
April 29, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
June 18, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
September 29, 2008Featured article reviewDemoted
December 26, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
August 31, 2020Good article nomineeListed
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on July 29, 2021, July 29, 2022, and July 29, 2023.
Current status: Former featured article, current good article
This article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconMiddle-earth Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to J. R. R. Tolkien, his legendarium, and related topics. Please visit the project talk page for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.Middle-earthWikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earthTemplate:WikiProject Middle-earthTolkien
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note: Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material before the current action must be written in past tense. Please see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards for more information about this and other article standards.
WikiProject iconBooks
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook
WikiProject iconNovels: Fantasy Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Fantasy task force (assessed as Top-importance).
WikiProject iconChildren's literature Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Children's literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Children's literature on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Children's literatureWikipedia:WikiProject Children's literatureTemplate:WikiProject Children's literaturechildren and young adult literature
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Tasks you can do:

Here are some open tasks for WikiProject Children's literature, an attempt to create and standardize articles related to children's literature. Feel free to help with any of the following tasks.

Things you can do edit
WikiProject iconMedia franchises Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Media franchises, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics related to media franchises on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Media franchisesWikipedia:WikiProject Media franchisesTemplate:WikiProject Media franchisesmedia franchise
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconPopular culture (inactive)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Popular culture, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Popular cultureWikipedia:WikiProject Popular cultureTemplate:WikiProject Popular culturePopular culture

Media mentionThis article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Inaccurate Reference Attribution

Under the section "Concept and Creation", in the "Writing" subsection, the first paragraph ends with:

As the story progressed, he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology.

The reference for the above statement is as follows:

Rérolle, Raphaëlle (5 December 2012). "My Father's 'Eviscerated' Work – Son Of Hobbit Scribe J. R. R. Tolkien Finally Speaks Out". Le Monde/Worldcrunch. Archived from the original on 10 February 2013.

The claim "he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology" is not explicitly or even implicitly mentioned in the cited article. The closest related idea from the article is perhaps:

In 1937, as soon as it was published, The Hobbit immediately became a critical and popular success, to the point where its then publisher, Allen and Unwin, demanded a sequel urgently. Tolkien, though, did not wish to continue in the same vein. He had instead almost finished a narrative of the most ancient times of his universe, which he called The Silmarillion. Too difficult, decreed the publisher, who continued to harass him. The writer, a bit half-heartedly, accepted the project of writing a new story. In fact, he was about to set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.

But there is no indication that as the writing of the Lord of the Rings books progressed, the author leveraged more elements from the previously unfinished book. The article states the writer accepted the project of writing a new story, implying that work stopped on the previous project. No connection is stated between the contents of the previously unfinished work and the new project; it is only after stopping the old work and accepting the new project that the writer would "set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.".

I think it would be better to remove that sentence completely. There is a cleaner lead to the next paragraph without it anyway. Johnalexjay (talk) 07:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this. The relationship between the two "books" is far more complex than this, as Tolkien had been working on his Legendarium (The Silmarillion writ large but unpublished, in thousands of partial drafts) since at least 1917, and built in many allusions to "Silmarillion" events in earlier ages to provide an impression of depth. Clearly the citation is not ideal to convey this concept. I'll look out something better. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
I've removed the Le Monde ref as unhelpful, and added a citation (already in the article) to Tom Shippey's Road to Middle-earth. He writes that "The Lord of the Rings ... has in abundance ... the old Beowulfian 'impression of depth', created just as in the old epics by songs and digressions like Aragorn's song of Beren and Lúthien, Sam Gamgee's allusions to the Silmaril and the Iron Crown" , Elrond's account of Celebrimbor, and dozens more." In short, "elements from The Silmarillion mythology" which Tolkien "brought in". Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

The Ring of the Nibelung & Wagner get no mention?

As similar as The Lord of the Rings is to Wagner's works ergo The Ring of the Nibelung, I'd have thought there would have been some mention in this article. 73.214.121.179 (talk) 04:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the thought. However, this article is at the top of a hierarchy of over 100 articles, which discuss many aspects of the book and its influences. The "Influences" section here, necessarily brief, has a "Main" link to "J. R. R. Tolkien's influences" which discusses your topic in more detail; the section actually does mentions mythology and German heroic legend, too. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
Categories: